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Explain to me why borrowers are responsible for the current mess?

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    #62
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    bonkey wrote: »
    In my experience, its mostly because there's a completely different set of legislation.
    There is, but the different sets of legislation result from the different attitudes.
    Boggle wrote: »
    By all means reform the laws but don't blame people for lack of political will.
    So who should we blame? If the electorate does not hold it's government accountable, then who does?


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    #63
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    I think this also is down to the distinction between impersonal causes and responsibilities.
    It's all impersonal when aggregated. That's the collective nature of macroeconomics, which all this is based upon.


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    #64
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So who should we blame?
    The Jews?





    Not really, but it's been a while since we did.


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    #65
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    It's all impersonal when aggregated. That's the collective nature of macroeconomics, which all this is based upon.
    It is certainly possible to take the view that we're all just acting under impersonal social forces and as such can't be held accountable for anything. I think this is one of the problems in Ireland.


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    #66
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So who should we blame? If the electorate does not hold it's government accountable, then who does?

    I think you have to remember tho, as he already outlined above, there is a small proportion of long term residential renters as opposed to homeowners (although growing).
    As a percentage of the electorate, their voice is even smaller.

    Those in power are not really terribly interested in such a minor issue.
    Commercial leasing would be higher in the political agenda anyway.

    Given the history and mentality, as already outlined, why would homeowners be interested in the plight of renters when there issues which affect the majority such as crime or healthcare or pensions?

    The plight of those unable to afford the stability of owner their own house was never really an issue until early 2000 onward.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the government even had an 'affordable housing' scheme prior to that (There was a council house scheme but thats a different animal).

    As regards the recent government initiative to free up lending and bypass the credit crunch, I believe there were 4 applications from the entire population.


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    #67
    Boggle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Boggle


    So who should we blame? If the electorate does not hold it's government accountable, then who does?
    Agree but... what can you do? Explaining to some people whats wrong with Fine Fail was like trying to convince people that the world was flat.
    The blame for the instability in the rental market lies with the government but the failures of the govt lie at the feet of the electorate.


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    #68
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    It is certainly possible to take the view that we're all just acting under impersonal social forces and as such can't be held accountable for anything. I think this is one of the problems in Ireland.
    Not what I meant.

    An economic crisis is not the product of any individual, but the product of aggregate groups interacting. The point I have been making since my first post on this subject is that in this regard, the borrowers, just like the banks, share some of the collective responsibility for where we are.

    What the OP and others have suggested is that the borrowers have no responsibility for the mess we're in. Individually this is correct, just as no individual bank or bank official is to blame. However, collectively we share the responsibility because it could not have happened without our collective and irresponsible borrowing to fuel an unstable a property bubble.

    It is easy to point at others and say, if it wasn't for the banks this wouldn't have happened, but ultimately if it wasn't for us it wouldn't have happened either. And it's not as if we were just looking to own our own homes, as much of the property bubble was fuelled by normal people speculating.

    That's the bottom line. The banks may have the lions share of the blame, but that does not make us blameless, and we should stop trying to kid ourselves that we are.
    irresponsibility.jpg


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    #69
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    Guys - this is the politics board. If you want to discuss legal advice and renting please use the appropriate forum.


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    #70
    Sean Templar
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭Sean Templar


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Two questions:
    1. What is IndyMedia?

    2. How are homeowners to blame for the current drama sweeping through our banking sector?

    BTW, I'm not a homeowner so I'm not inclined to get offended, but I genuinely don't understand how people are deflecting blame from Bank managers onto home owners?

    My understanding:
    There was a monopoly, lack of supply, burst in demand
    There was an unregulated market
    There was a boom on property price increases


    The only way that homeowners could be to blame in my understanding is if:
    A) There was an alternative supply of houses at a significantly lower price which people dis-regarded for some bizzare reason?
    and
    B) There were alternative financial institutions offering significantly more competitive rates than the main six, which people dis-regarded for some bizzare reason?


    Strictly speaking, the only homeowners who benefitted long term from the boom, were those who bought the property prior to the start of the boom.
    There are many, many people who did not benefit at all and are in negative equity.

    Can someone point out to me what I'm missing?

    Borrowers are not to blame,they only took what the banks gave them.The banks are Totally to blame for the whole mess,
    giving 100%+ loans.The construction (builders) industry borrowed from the Banks to build the houses,and the banks lent to the house buyers,so they could pay the builders.Then the builders gave the money the householder paid them ,back to the banks to pay their loans.The common thread through the whole thing is BANKS!.


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    #71
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sean Templar wrote: »
    Borrowers are not to blame,they only took what the banks gave them.The banks are Totally to blame for the whole mess,
    giving 100%+ loans.
    I don't seem to recall any stories in the news about bank managers holding guns to potential customers' heads... People had perfectly functioning brains in their heads but they chose to tune out the dissenting voices, listen to the property market spin and focus on the €€€. Greed, pure and simple.

    It's like saying McDonalds offered you their food and therefore it's their fault you decided to eat too much and get fat.


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    #72
    Sean Templar
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭Sean Templar


    taconnol wrote: »
    I don't seem to recall any stories in the news about bank managers holding guns to potential customers' heads... People had perfectly functioning brains in their heads but they chose to tune out the dissenting voices, listen to the property market spin and focus on the €€€. Greed, pure and simple.

    It's like saying McDonalds offered you their food and therefore it's their fault you decided to eat too much and get fat.

    Yes i agree with you "greed pure and simple" by the banks.The Banks are responsible for the money they control,and who they lend to.The onus is on them to ensure they lend the appropriate amount of money to suitable lenders.Just last week on RTE it was highlighted that AIB and BOI lent unacceptable amounts of money to commercial property borrowers without the proper checks and restrictions
    (just like the sub prime in america) .It was pure greed.......by the Banks.


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    #73
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sean Templar wrote: »
    Yes i agree with you "greed pure and simple" by the banks.The Banks are responsible for the money they control,and who they lend to.The onus is on them to ensure they lend the appropriate amount of money to suitable lenders.Just last week on RTE it was highlighted that AIB and BOI lent unacceptable amounts of money to commercial property borrowers without the proper checks and restrictions
    (just like the sub prime in america) .It was pure greed.......by the Banks.

    I'm not denying that banks lent recklessly. But in order to lend recklessly, there have to be people who are willing to borrow recklessly.

    To put all the responsibility on the banks is just pathetic. Did any of these people have any intelligence or understanding of how mortages and the property market work? They were all so happy to keep the ball rolling as long as they were making money but now that the market is crashing, it's all somebody else's fault. It's like listening to children.


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    #74
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Sean Templar wrote: »
    The Banks are responsible for the money they control,and who they lend to.The onus is on them to ensure they lend the appropriate amount of money to suitable lenders.
    Likewise, the onus is on the individual to ensure that they only borrow what they are capable of repaying.


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    #75
    xOxSinéadxOx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,604 ✭✭✭xOxSinéadxOx


    The borrowers are definitely to blame as well. People acting as if they done nothing wrong at all and it was the evil bankers fault that they took out a big mortgage for their ridiculously over priced house and a big car loan and now they don't have a job. seriously though the banks didn't force anybody to take out a loan even if they were a bit in your face about it. And your average joe soap speculating and buying about 4 houses and selling them at a higher price to another joe. I'm not saying it's just the borrowers' faults but people need to stop acting like it isn't at all


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    #76
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    taconnol wrote: »
    I don't seem to recall any stories in the news about bank managers holding guns to potential customers' heads... People had perfectly functioning brains in their heads but they chose to tune out the dissenting voices, listen to the property market spin and focus on the €€€. Greed, pure and simple.

    Look, Irish Nationwide had the heavies in when I signed.

    They were a bit dearer but everybody knew they were going to demutualise and I'd get free shares.

    I'm going to sue.

    Of course If I I got the €20,000 in free shares you wouldn't hear me moaning on here. I'd be on Investments asking were to invest.

    I've no sympathy. People used equity as income to re mortgage or trade up.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #77
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Sean Templar wrote: »
    Borrowers are not to blame,they only took what the banks gave them.The banks are Totally to blame for the whole mess,
    giving 100%+ loans.The construction (builders) industry borrowed from the Banks to build the houses,and the banks lent to the house buyers,so they could pay the builders.Then the builders gave the money the householder paid them ,back to the banks to pay their loans.The common thread through the whole thing is BANKS!.
    I don't think you actually read the thread.


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