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WIT University Status - "Its a big 'no'"
Comments
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Show me evidence that there is an excess of Arts courses elsewhere. The Faculty of Humanities in the WIT is one of the fastest growing areas of the WIT. There is no competition at all within the region so this is not surprising. You seem to forget that it is not affordable or convenient for many people to uproot and move to another city to study, now more than ever. Nor should they have to when other (some less populated) regions have universities in situ.
I would consider that the current set up in Irish Unis where Arts courses have relatively low entry points is proof enough there is a surplus of places. that and there is already established Arts faculties elsewhere, as i said previously the OECD report mentions that duplication of courses is not needed, this country needs more graduates in areas like science & tech, not more Arts graduates.
On the population issue, i've taken issue with the massaging of pop stats as some sort of justification for uni status in previous threads. As is Waterford City is, at most, 2-3 hrs from other Universities. that compares favourably to the rest of the country outside the major urban areas.The proliferation of engineering courses, which is perfectly in line with the IT remit, makes far less financial sense, since the cost per student is far higher. Arts courses are relatively low cost to provide, but because of the arbitrary restrictions of the IT remit, they are difficult to progress in Waterford.
Far better would be get rid of the barriers and let institutes compete on a level playing field..
Engineering and science is the future for this country, specialisation in these areas will surely be the basis for a future review of tertiary education as the country moves away from the 'degree mill' scenario we currently have. It would not be "far better" to introduce more arts faculties into an already crowded field as this will only dilute the quality of teaching even more.
The limits on ITs are there for a reason, there are plenty more ITs around the country who would like to introduce Arts into their programmes as they are cheap to provide and bring in funding, but this falls outside their remit.Simply examine the student numbers studying in each of the four regional cities. You'll find that double or treble the numbers studying in Cork, Limerick and Galway as Waterford. Students from Waterford are studying in these locations, bolstering those local economies with cash in the form of rents, fees, expenditure, and later on in the form of talent, since may graduates do not come back. According to BOI (http://www.bankofireland.ie/html/gws/students/third_level/manage_finances/index.html), Waterford students/parents are also paying 333 euros more to study away from home than at home. This adds up to a tax on 3rd level education for Waterford students who have to travel to find courses and a large scale transfer of wealth and talent to other regions..
And whats wrong with that? i know when i say the term parochial thinking it drives you deise folk potty but this is exactly what you are saying here. What about students from elsewhere outside these urban areas who have to pay accom etc? is it a tax on them too? what about those in Cork who study in limerick or Dublin or vice versa? we can't have a duplication of resources in every area just because so and so has it also.The Goodbody report (http://www.waterfordchamber.com/images/stories/documents/goodbody_report.pdf) highlights the economic impact of having or not having a university in the region. It was commissioned by Waterford Chamber of Commerce, but I dare say everything can be backed up by the CSO, where more up to date statistics can be found..
Tbh i'll take the report by the impartial OECD on our national tertiary system over a report commissioned by a local chamber of commerce?The OECD report you cite originally came work done in 2003. I can remember when that report came out (read the foreword). Most of the recommendations are good, including maintaining the distinct missions of IoTs and universities. The recommendation that we disagree with is that there should be no further movements into the university sector. Clearly, we believe that there should be one more entrant into that sector. The south east wants parity and it wants to compete on a level playing field with other regions..I don't think that everything points to consolidation in the university sector. Or at least, we can have consolidation, but Waterford needs to be providing 1st tier education in Ireland with no more restrictions than anywhere else. The Times High Education review 2008 (http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/safe/) gives Ireland higher score in the 'Flagship' rating than any other area, including 'Economy' and 'Access'. We have two universities in the top 200, one in the top 50. The argument about Ireland needed more 'world class' universities' is a red herring. What we need is an overall increase in 3rd level education spend, and -- imho -- an upgrade of the WIT to provide the last entrant into the university sector, to provide parity and to provide the most logical spread of universities across the country.
Agreed we need more funding, but i think the future for Irish third level is consolidation and mergers of existing institutions rather then creating new ones. The IoT can be merged into a single national institute with constituent parts specialising in different areas, this is where WITs future lies rather then just becoming another NUIM/UL which in turn will have to find there own niche roles in a reorganised Irish University sector.0 -
Parochial, comming from a Cork man - don't make me laugh
do you remember when WRTC was designtaed WIT as the first step along the road to becomming a University. The Cork fellows began hopping up and down demanding their IT be upgraded also
and guess what all the RTC's became IT's overnight and delayed Waterford's equal oppurtunity of a level playing field vis a vis the other Gateway Cities0 -
Parochial, comming from a Cork man - don't make me laugh
do you remember when WRTC was designtaed WIT as the first step along the road to becomming a University. The Cork fellows began hopping up and down demanding their IT be upgraded also
and guess what all the RTC's became IT's overnight and delayed Waterford's equal oppurtunity of a level playing field vis a vis the other Gateway Cities
I'm only a young fella Bards, im not long in the tooth and bitter towards any other area or county in my country.
Dont' get me started on the NSS - sham document, means nothing.0 -
oh how convenient. :mad:invincibleirish wrote: »I'm only a young fella Bards, im not long in the tooth and bitter towards any other area or county in my country.
Dont' get me started on the NSS - sham document, means nothing.0 -
oh how convenient. :mad:
well if you'd like i can go into detail how the NSS fails in its most basic goal - to promote a joined up plan of development.
It fails utterly to do so for numerous reasons, and has been ignored completely by the decision makers in the years since its publication.
But it looks good in press releases and the gullible punters believe it.0 -
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I don't have time to respond to all the points, and I don't think there's a whole lot more to be said anyway, but,
1. There has been no massaging of population figures whatsoever. By most sensible measures, more people would be served by a university in Waterford than in Limerick or Galway. The south east is a more populous region than the West or mid-West. There should never have been universities established in Limerick or Maynooth before Waterford, going both by population and coverage. The argument along the lines of "what's done is done, this is where we are now, and one more university will wreck everything" doesn't fly for me. It just doesn't. Not when the WIT is not that far off in any case.
2. As for the usual charges of parochialism. According to dictionary.com:
Parochial
3. very limited or narrow in scope or outlook; provincial: parochial views; a parochial mentality.
Many of the arguments that are made every time this issue comes up centre around equality, parity of education, level playing field, etc. These are not parochial concepts by any means. These arguments look at the situation from a countrywide point of view and compare like with like (in other regions). A parochial argument would go as follows:
"A. I want an airport."
"B. The demographics don't warrant an airport in your area."
"A. I want one anyway because my bishop says so."
"B. No, your argument is groundless and parochial, we're not putting an airport in the middle of nowhere."
If you look at the map of Ireland and mark the locations of universities, the south east and Waterford stand out as being excluded. It is not parochial to make arguments on the basis of equality, particularly when the region is and has been suffering badly. We, as a country, will fight our corner for rights and resources in the EU. So will other countries. There is nothing parochial about that as long as people keep their eye on the big picture.0 -
invincibleirish wrote: »well if you'd like i can go into detail how the NSS fails in its most basic goal - to promote a joined up plan of development.
It fails utterly to do so for numerous reasons, and has been ignored completely by the decision makers in the years since its publication.
But it looks good in press releases and the gullible punters believe it.
It fails becasue everytime Waterford (a Gateway City) looks like it is getting something (Motorway, University, Airport), people like you (the Naysayers, Lobsters etc) start jumping up and down demanding something in return.
End result we are left with the Status Quo which is a lot of margarine spread everywhere.
Until you realsie that the National Spatial Strategy is good for the country as a whole, and stop this parochial, protectionist thinking then we will get nowhere0 -
It fails becasue everytime Waterford (a Gateway City) looks like it is getting something (Motorway, University, Airport), people like you (the Naysayers, Lobsters etc) start jumping up and down demanding something in return.
End result we are left with the Status Quo which is a lot of margarine spread everywhere.
Until you realsie that the National Spatial Strategy is good for the country as a whole, and stop this parochial, protectionist thinking then we will get nowhere
The NSS fails because it has 8 gateways and nearly 20 secondary gateways. for 4million people. thats not including Dublin. thats too much. its a sop document, you cannot maintain a semblance of balanced planning with so many gateways and hubs in such a tiny sparsley populated island.0 -
I don't have time to respond to all the points, and I don't think there's a whole lot more to be said anyway, but,
1. There has been no massaging of population figures whatsoever. By most sensible measures, more people would be served by a university in Waterford than in Limerick or Galway. The south east is a more populous region than the West or mid-West. There should never have been universities established in Limerick or Maynooth before Waterford, going both by population and coverage. The argument along the lines of "what's done is done, this is where we are now, and one more university will wreck everything" doesn't fly for me. It just doesn't. Not when the WIT is not that far off in any case..
1. when you talk about the South East you fail to acknowedge most of the S/E geographic area falls into other catchment areas, Wexford and Tipp are within catchment areas of other established institutions.
2. the argument may not fly with you but its time we in Ireland take a more pragmatic approach to allocating our resources rather then allocating it on local campaign pressure groups and green eyed monsterism taking precedence over established professional opinion.2. As for the usual charges of parochialism. According to dictionary.com:
Parochial
3. very limited or narrow in scope or outlook; provincial: parochial views; a parochial mentality.
Many of the arguments that are made every time this issue comes up centre around equality, parity of education, level playing field, etc. These are not parochial concepts by any means. These arguments look at the situation from a countrywide point of view and compare like with like (in other regions). A parochial argument would go as follows:
"A. I want an airport."
"B. The demographics don't warrant an airport in your area."
"A. I want one anyway because my bishop says so."
"B. No, your argument is groundless and parochial, we're not putting an airport in the middle of nowhere."
If you look at the map of Ireland and mark the locations of universities, the south east and Waterford stand out as being excluded. It is not parochial to make arguments on the basis of equality, particularly when the region is and has been suffering badly. We, as a country, will fight our corner for rights and resources in the EU. So will other countries. There is nothing parochial about that as long as people keep their eye on the big picture.
looking at a map is not the best way to decide on allocation of resources.0 -
invincibleirish wrote: »1. when you talk about the South East you fail to acknowedge most of the S/E geographic area falls into other catchment areas, Wexford and Tipp are within catchment areas of other established institutions.
But isin't that the same for every other region? Whatever catchment there is around Waterford, it extends a lot further than the one around Limerick or Maynooth. Most of Wexford, and south Tipp. are not close to universities in other locations. But again, Limerick and Maynooth universities are within a much shorter to commute to multiple institutions than Waterford is to any one.invincibleirish wrote: »2. the argument may not fly with you but its time we in Ireland take a more pragmatic approach to allocating our resources rather then allocating it on local campaign pressure groups and green eyed monsterism taking precedence over established professional opinion.
You failed to understand my previous explanation on parochialism I see. Fair enough.
We in Waterford, and the south east generally, have the same justification to university level education as the other regions. Whether or not you choose to call this parochialism or not is irrelevant. The region will continue to press its case for parity and a level playing field to compete economically and otherwise, nationally and internationally.
We are not going to lie down just because you think the golden number of universities has been reached. Or because you think that there should be consolidation. That is an open argument, and one that the Times Survey I linked to does not come down on, one way or the other, as an external view of our third level sector.
The rush to consolidation itself is a vested interest held by those who think that it would be more interesting for Ireland to score points on a league table than to provide university education in the regions. Countries such as Finland and New Zealand are similar in population to Ireland, have low population densities and have the same number or more universities. I have personally never come across a serious report recommending a reduction in the number of universities in Ireland, only that the number remain the same. The rationalisation and consolidation and "world class university" brigade as more of a cult and parochial interest than the Waterford campaign. There has certainly been more scrutiny on the Waterford campaign, and more points in its favour.invincibleirish wrote: »looking at a map is not the best way to decide on allocation of resources.
Providing a uniform population distribution, it's actually pretty spot on.
Like every other thread invincibleirish is on, especially where slamming Waterford is the order of the day, this one will run and run....0 -
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I don't think this recession is the best time to be demanding a University?
Better chance of upgrading one of the banks in Waterford!0 -
Just looking at the FUSE website and the picture they have, with the south east blacked out seems a bit overkill and doesn't accurately represent the access people have to universities. According to that map they have people in nenagh and other areas of north tipp are too far away to attend UL :S0
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But isin't that the same for every other region? Whatever catchment there is around Waterford, it extends a lot further than the one around Limerick or Maynooth. Most of Wexford, and south Tipp. are not close to universities in other locations. But again, Limerick and Maynooth universities are within a much shorter to commute to multiple institutions than Waterford is to any one.
I would suggest the populations of South Tipp & Wexford are well within reasonable distances of other Universities, certainly as close as they would be to a Waterford University. They would also be better connected by Bus/Road & Rail to these areas then Waterford. Also Maynooth has larger economies of scale to be dealing with.You failed to understand my previous explanation on parochialism I see. Fair enough. ....
Ok let me give you an example of parochial thinking...We in Waterford, and the south east generally, have the same justification to university level education as the other regions. Whether or not you choose to call this parochialism or not is irrelevant. The region will continue to press its case for parity and a level playing field to compete economically and otherwise, nationally and internationally....
...This is parochial thinking, you have a clear sense of entitlement, you feel you are owed a university. You ignore all other opinions which state that establishing a Uni in Waterford is not in the best interests of the country. Nevermind recommendations about reform of the IoTs or whatever, Waterford has to havea Uni, at all costs no matter what said, be it me, the OECD or whoever else. This is parochial thinking in the extreme, you literally can't see beyond the county border, its what Waterford wants nevermind what might be in the best interest of the country.We are not going to lie down just because you think the golden number of universities has been reached. Or because you think that there should be consolidation. That is an open argument, and one that the Times Survey I linked to does not come down on, one way or the other, as an external view of our third level sector.....
I don't think the golden number of Universities has been reached, the Government has, the OECD has. All factors indicate that Ireland does not need another university. The times is not gospel.The rush to consolidation itself is a vested interest held by those who think that it would be more interesting for Ireland to score points on a league table than to provide university education in the regions. Countries such as Finland and New Zealand are similar in population to Ireland, have low population densities and have the same number or more universities. I have personally never come across a serious report recommending a reduction in the number of universities in Ireland, only that the number remain the same. The rationalisation and consolidation and "world class university" brigade as more of a cult and parochial interest than the Waterford campaign. There has certainly been more scrutiny on the Waterford campaign, and more points in its favour.....
This is paranoia more then anything, are you seriously suggesting the OECD is compromised in its integrity?Providing a uniform population distribution, it's actually pretty spot on.
but it isn't, outside of Waterford city the only other populated areas either have their own 3rd level institutes, or are close to other areas which do.
If you live in Dungarvan/Cashel/Tipp/Gorey/Kilkenny/Carlow you are no more then a 90 minute commute to areas which already have Universities in situ.0 -
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Lads can we quit with the digs and insults? That includes calling people trolls. Attack the post and not the poster.
Report a post if you have issue with it. Please, lets not cause another University thread to be closed.0 -
invincibleirish, I thought you were interested in a debate this time, or at least in remaining open to alternative points of view. But it's clear that you are happy to repeat everything you said on the previous thread, in the usual ignorant and condescending manner. I am not happy to repeat myself ad-nauseum, because I just don't have the time, and because I think that the longer this thread continues the more the best arguments will be lost.
The fact of the matter is that there are reports and evidence on both sides of the argument, commissioned by both sides. Both sides set the agenda for those reports, and both sides got what they wanted. You are only willing to consider the OECD report, which is *not* the report currently under consideration from the government, and not even the last report commissioned by the government.
The report under current consideration is the Port report, which is as positive about a WIT upgrade as is possible without contravening government policy. In any case, there is very little in that OECD report that is actually against a Waterford upgrade, aside from the bit about no more entrants into the university sector. Most of the report is supportive of the various goals of the WIT in gaining additional freedoms and reducing arbitrary restrictions, but differs as to the solution. (We agree about the difference of missions between IoTs and universities being maintained.)
Your attempts to diminish the size of the population catchment and hinterland surrounding Waterford, including the road/rail/bus connections from Wexford/Tipp. to Waterford are nothing short of pathetic. The population of the region is larger than the west and mid-west, the distance to other universities is further, than from say Limerick, and certainly Maynooth (not to mention DCU). These facts are available from the CSO, if you'd care to check. And also from a good map of Ireland. The fact of the matter is that a university should have been situated in Waterford before Limerick or Maynooth for demographic reasons that cannot be disputed.
The world will not fall in if the WIT becomes a university. Eight universities in a country of 4.4 million is about right, and is consistent with other countries with a similar demographic profile to Ireland. It is correct and consistent, from a national and international point of view, that the south east continues to lobby for a university. It is already operating at university level in the areas that it can, as certified by Dr. Port. It will eventually become a university one way or the other. The tragedy is that the lost time will have a negative economic and cultural effect on Waterford and the south east.0 -
I've read some of this thread but not all so I apologise in advance if I repeat other sentiments.
It's not that I am glad WIT didn't get the status (I got my degree in WIT) but I am sort of relieved that it didn't get the status.
I feel it's not a matter of 'deserving' a uni (those who say that remind me of the Deise fans who carried on last summer that they deserved an All Ireland title:eek:)
I feel the country does not need another university. A uni must maintain certain standards (grades, quality of research etc) and adding a new uni may hinder these factors across the board.
I'm sure a lot of the existing unis are struggling to make up the numbers on a lot of their courses (I'll admit, I don't know the facts on this so I'm open to correction) but I work in IT and I know the dropout rate is very high on such courses which leads me to believe the level of quality in 'student' is not maintained throughout the college years. Why is this happening? Is it because unis are loosening the entry requirements to fill seats and get funding? This is my concern and a new uni is not going to help this situation.
As we have our ten year re-union in WIT coming this year I look back and see how far WIT has come in those 10 years, facilities etc when I was there were quite awful to put it mildly! It's good to see an improvement in such facilities, uni status or not!0 -
run_Forrest_run wrote: »I've read some of this thread but not all so I apologise in advance if I repeat other sentiments.
It's not that I am glad WIT didn't get the status (I got my degree in WIT) but I am sort of relieved that it didn't get the status.
I feel it's not a matter of 'deserving' a uni (those who say that remind me of the Deise fans who carried on last summer that they deserved an All Ireland title:eek:)
I feel the country does not need another university. A uni must maintain certain standards (grades, quality of research etc) and adding a new uni may hinder these factors across the board.
I'm sure a lot of the existing unis are struggling to make up the numbers on a lot of their courses (I'll admit, I don't know the facts on this so I'm open to correction) but I work in IT and I know the dropout rate is very high on such courses which leads me to believe the level of quality in 'student' is not maintained throughout the college years. Why is this happening? Is it because unis are loosening the entry requirements to fill seats and get funding? This is my concern and a new uni is not going to help this situation.
As we have our ten year re-union in WIT coming this year I look back and see how far WIT has come in those 10 years, facilities etc when I was there were quite awful to put it mildly! It's good to see an improvement in such facilities, uni status or not!
The thing is run_Forrest_run, WIT is already entitled to operate at a university level in areas of industrial focus, such as in IT. It awards accredited degrees, masters and phds, as you know, in IT, and is one of the most prolific institutes in Europe (8th) at generating EC funding. So if the WIT was upgraded tomorrow, aside from attracting a few more students due an enhanced reputation, nothing would change at all in these areas. (I suspect funding increases would be a while in coming.)
I do agree that standards are dropping in universities and IoTs. I think that courses should not be run if points sink too low. This forces institutions to either reduce class numbers or abandon the course entirely. I think DCU and Maynooth are in many ways more vulnerable than WIT in this respect due to the intense competition in the Dublin area from Trinity and UCD, which are rated amongst the world's best universities. Let institutes compete on a level playing field, however.
Using the Times QS SAFE - National System Strength Rankings (http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/safe/) as a benchmark, Ireland is almost maxes out the 'Flagship' category, which rates the quality of our top institutes, but falls down on the 'Economic', 'System' and 'Access' categories. The main message is that Ireland needs to invest significantly more in 3rd level education. The secondary message is that we have to improve the rankings of our lower ranking institutions (in particular, the more in the top 500 the better), which have a direct affect on our performance in the three categories mentioned. Currently we have 7 institutes in the top 500 (http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/regional_rankings/top_irish_universities/): all the universities, except NUI Maynooth, but including DIT. Getting NUIM and WIT into the top 500 would the most economical way to improve Ireland's international ranking, at least by the Times benchmark. WIT has the most scope for future growth.0 -
invincibleirish, I thought you were interested in a debate this time, or at least in remaining open to alternative points of view. But it's clear that you are happy to repeat everything you said on the previous thread, in the usual ignorant and condescending manner. I am not happy to repeat myself ad-nauseum, because I just don't have the time, and because I think that the longer this thread continues the more the best arguments will be lost..
Merlante stop being so touchy, if you feel I am repeating myself then its because I take issue with some of the more outlandish parts of your posts and feel the need to clarify. Similarly copying and pasting a dictionary.com definition as means of challenging my viewpoint can be considered ignorant and condescending, you might not like being told you hold a parochial point of view but that is how it comes across and I do not apologise for pointing it out.The fact of the matter is that there are reports and evidence on both sides of the argument, commissioned by both sides. Both sides set the agenda for those reports, and both sides got what they wanted. You are only willing to consider the OECD report, which is *not* the report currently under consideration from the government, and not even the last report commissioned by the government..The report under current consideration is the Port report, which is as positive about a WIT upgrade as is possible without contravening government policy. In any case, there is very little in that OECD report that is actually against a Waterford upgrade, aside from the bit about no more entrants into the university sector. Most of the report is supportive of the various goals of the WIT in gaining additional freedoms and reducing arbitrary restrictions, but differs as to the solution. (We agree about the difference of missions between IoTs and universities being maintained.).
I’m sorry merlante the fact of the matter is you do not consider the OECD report as valid in its recommendations because they conflict with your own viewpoints. But the OECD is as impartial as it is a report for the Irish tertiary sector, not just a Waterford POV. It is not on one side of the argument or the other it is above the arguments of the WIT upgrade. You are trying to separate the issue of WIT upgrade from the future role of the states tertiary education sector when they are very much interlinked. it’s a question of do we have a cohesive policy that isn’t influenced by local concerns. The OECD report should take precedent over any other commissioned report be it from Waterford Chamber or FF after pressure from the usual suspects.Your attempts to diminish the size of the population catchment and hinterland surrounding Waterford, including the road/rail/bus connections from Wexford/Tipp. to Waterford are nothing short of pathetic. The population of the region is larger than the west and mid-west, the distance to other universities is further, than from say Limerick, and certainly Maynooth (not to mention DCU). These facts are available from the CSO, if you'd care to check. And also from a good map of Ireland. The fact of the matter is that a university should have been situated in Waterford before Limerick or Maynooth for demographic reasons that cannot be disputed .
You find it pathetic because its challenging your assumptions and PR campaign that the SE is some sort of 3rd level desert that is cut off from any access to Universities. This is absurd. You fail to acknowledge that large portions of the ’South East’ fall into the radius of other urban areas with these facilities. This is deceitful on your part and classic gombeenism in its own way. What is also gombeenism is you have a chip on your shoulder about Limerick and Maynooth, the green eyed monster is visible here as you splutter at the injustice of other areas ‘getting’ a University. Nevermind Maynooth serves a large urban area and that UL became a Uni due to the type of odious politics of clientism which we are supposed to have done away with in this country. This is why we are part of the OECD in the first place nad we let them compile reports on various sectors of Ireland and its Government and Economy, so that the naked self interest can be taken out when assessing this country, its current set up and future plans.The world will not fall in if the WIT becomes a university. Eight universities in a country of 4.4 million is about right, and is consistent with other countries with a similar demographic profile to Ireland. It is correct and consistent, from a national and international point of view, that the south east continues to lobby for a university. It is already operating at university level in the areas that it can, as certified by Dr. Port. It will eventually become a university one way or the other. The tragedy is that the lost time will have a negative economic and cultural effect on Waterford and the south east.
Your key word here is lobby, you don’t care about what may be good for the country so long as you get your own way, this is the type of attitude that needs to change if we are serious about moving on from the politics of clientism. Why should we ignore the OECD in favour of WIT? And why should any other institution, like the Dublin & Cork Its, not press for their own claims to Uni status(abetted by their own local cheerleaders). After all if the decision is made to upgrade WIT is one made because of politics, then why can’t these institutions use politics to further their own cause? I can only assume you’d be equally supportive of their causes as you are WITs so long as they cobble together a case for upgrade based on factors not outside of education.
You don't have to waste your precious time replying to me but the points i make are all valid, sure they might rile you but i'm not saying them for the laugh, or because i have a dislike for Waterford, its because i'm tired of the way we do things in this country and the county above al costs Irish people have.0 -
. Eight universities in a country of 4.4 million is about right, and is consistent with other countries with a similar demographic profile to Ireland.
Surely 7 universities could be classed as about right as well? I don't think we need another university in Ireland. I believe it would be much more beneficial to the country if the existing universities were brought up in standards and the remit of IT's slightly widened, so that they could operate in between what is a university and IT. One of the main staples in my mind of what a university is about is subjects like history, politics etc.
In terms of population distributions and access and all that. I would say that a University in the south east at WIT would only be extremely beneficial to people already living in 10-15 miles of the WIT campus. I think everywhere else could be served by the existing uni's0 -
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invincibleirish wrote: »Your key word here is lobby, you don’t care about what may be good for the country so long as you get your own way, this is the type of attitude that needs to change if we are serious about moving on from the politics of clientism.
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You don't have to waste your precious time replying to me but the points i make are all valid, sure they might rile you but i'm not saying them for the laugh, or because i have a dislike for Waterford, its because i'm tired of the way we do things in this country and the county above al costs Irish people have.
If you weren't putting words in my mouth and disregarding anything that doesn't fit your world view, you wouldn't have much more to say. You made some good points as usual but you seem to think that nobody else can take the opposite view without being parochial or a green eyed monster, or whatever. There are two sides to this argument, face it.
I think on this topic and others you are more concerned with riling people up and starting big raging threads than having an honest exchange of views. Do you have any more arguments to offer against a university in Waterford, or are you done?0 -
Surely 7 universities could be classed as about right as well? I don't think we need another university in Ireland. I believe it would be much more beneficial to the country if the existing universities were brought up in standards and the remit of IT's slightly widened, so that they could operate in between what is a university and IT. One of the main staples in my mind of what a university is about is subjects like history, politics etc.
Seven universities would be fine for many reasons as well, but the south east is not covered. Every other region of the country is covered by a university except the south east. (The north west is only partially covered by the McGee campus of the University of Ulster campus in Derry, but the population not covered is small.) The other point is that the WIT is really not that far off as it is. I think it should be allowed to grow to its natural size.
I think the courses you mention should be available in the south east. If these courses are cheaper to provide than many of the more expensive industrial courses already offered by WIT, I don't see why this can't be the case. I don't think it's very healthy for the culture or politics of a region if 3rd level education is confined to only have industrial courses.In terms of population distributions and access and all that. I would say that a University in the south east at WIT would only be extremely beneficial to people already living in 10-15 miles of the WIT campus. I think everywhere else could be served by the existing uni's
I think everywhere is 'served' by existing universities to some extent. Even if all we had was Trinity college, the majority of the country could be said to within 4hrs of a university education. But the experience in Ireland, and elsewhere, has been that when you put universities in the regions, the percentage of degree level graduates increase, the economy performs at a higher level, income levels rise, society and culture benefits, and so on. Also, by the criteria of the Times QS SAFE - National System Strength Rankings, Ireland would perform a lot worse, owing to the reduced access to third level education.
Clearly the seven universities versus eight universities argument has no mathematically correct answer. You can make arguments in both directions from a national point of view. From the point of view of the south east, however, a university would be wholely positive, and would more than make up for any marginal loss of future investment to the other institutes. The other institutes are already losing research funds to WIT anyway.
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A University of the South East would not only be good for Waterford and the South East, but the whole country. Think about it: by helping to increase jobs by attracting FDI here, the Government will be able to make money from taxes on those FDI companies, not to mention taxes on the businesses who benefit from increased student numbers etc.
Also, with increasing amounts of Waterford people going on the dole due to massive job losses here, this means more pressure on our Government - if we could attract companies here to replace those jobs, not ony would people be getting off the dole, they would be contributing by paying taxes back to the state when they have the good jobs that the USE would bring.
We have made all these points in previous threads but the people against the USE keep asking "how will a USE benefit Ireland?" - well there's your reasons above. The Government keep harping on about a "knowledge economy" - well, why can't the South East be a part of it?
And Waterford has been campaigning for a university here since the 1950's - before some of the other universities were established. Sadly, the Governments since then ignored us. So it's not like we are just being selfish and demanding what other regions have. We have wanted this university for the last 50 years, just like our 2nd bridge (which we will finally have later this year).0 -
If you weren't putting words in my mouth and disregarding anything that doesn't fit your world view, you wouldn't have much more to say. You made some good points as usual but you seem to think that nobody else can take the opposite view without being parochial or a green eyed monster, or whatever. There are two sides to this argument, face it.
I think on this topic and others you are more concerned with riling people up and starting big raging threads than having an honest exchange of views. Do you have any more arguments to offer against a university in Waterford, or are you done?
i'm arguing your logic that you use for a WIT upgrade, so far your only rebuttal is questioning my motives and getting all defensive. Its legitimate to point out the obvious deficiencies in your proposals and thinking as well as how it is at odds with both current and future plans for Third Level.
You don't accept the OECDs recommendations you don't like yet you push the very biased other reports as legitimate.
You have issues when i point out the South East is not as remote from civilisation as you claim it to be. Ireland, even with its many regions, is not a big place.
I respect anyone involved with trying to help their locale as best they think appropriate but i don't think its healthy that major decisions involving scarce resources are made on the basis of strong regional lobbies taking favour over established research & policy.0 -
invincibleirish wrote: »I respect anyone involved with trying to help their locale as best they think appropriate but i don't think its healthy that major decisions involving scarce resources are made on the basis of strong regional lobbies taking favour over established research & policy.
Again may I point out the Cork Lobby and what they did to WIT. and if it weren;t for the Cork Lobby WIT would be University by now0 -
81% of students who moved away from Waterford to go to college, don't return after graduating. Those figures were from 2002, but I'd imagine they are still relevant. That is crazy. The majority of the highest scoring students in the Leaving Cert go on to attend university - that's no secret. Of course there are exceptions to this, but it's a minority that stay in Waterford. Having such a "brain drain" is detrimental to the regions economy.
Businesses that require highly qualified workers simply aren't going to set up in areas where there isn't an abundance of such graduates as it would make no business sense for them to do so, unless they're heavily subsidised and offered grants. There is very little we can do as a region to lure back these graduates who uprooted in the past and the only thing that we can "boast" about is that our current crop of students working their way through the Leaving Cert are very likely to be under financial pressure and might very well be forced to stay in Waterford for third-level education.
I can't even see that situation reflecting positively on the region as all it will result in is students with an abundance of potential being constricted in the courses they can choose from and may not enjoy or be suited to.
All this does not bode well for the region.0 -
invincibleirish wrote: »i'm arguing your logic that you use for a WIT upgrade, so far your only rebuttal is questioning my motives and getting all defensive. Its legitimate to point out the obvious deficiencies in your proposals and thinking as well as how it is at odds with both current and future plans for Third Level.
If there are obvious deficiencies in my 'proposals', you haven't pointed them out. You rarely address the substance of my posts.invincibleirish wrote: »You don't accept the OECDs recommendations you don't like yet you push the very biased other reports as legitimate.
The Port report was commissioned by the government, and *again* is the one currently under consideration, but according to you it's some FF, lobby-driven document. Sure everything is biased if it doesn't agree with your point of view. The CSO is biased as well. I'm just being some kind of parochial muck savage by expecting that the south east gets a level playing field in 3rd level education. Because *that's* what parochial means. Maybe we should let the Spanish fish every inch of our waters, and harmonise our taxes with Europe, and stop being so parochial as a country.invincibleirish wrote: »You have issues when i point out the South East is not as remote from civilisation as you claim it to be. Ireland, even with its many regions, is not a big place.
I never said it was a big place, I just said, quite rightly, that the south east has the sort of size and population to warrant a university, based on the current distribution of universities around the country. I said, quite rightly, that you have to go further from Waterford, say, to get to a university, then you'd have to from Limerick, which was built with NUIG and UCC in relatively close proximity. I also said that 8 universities would be by no means unusual by international standards.invincibleirish wrote: »I respect anyone involved with trying to help their locale as best they think appropriate but i don't think its healthy that major decisions involving scarce resources are made on the basis of strong regional lobbies taking favour over established research & policy.
My stance is that the policy is wrong, and there is a body of evidence and reportage out there to suggest that upgrading WIT is the right thing to do. You'll also find the opposite. I'm not afraid of further investigation, are you? That's what the next 'phase' of the a potential upgrade entails. A further expert review and a report to be presented to the oireachtas. (Unfortunately, parochial interests in Cork will probably attempt to sabotage the process as usual -- sorry, I couldn't resist.)
But what I find most annoying, and funny, about your argument is that it is far more likely that realpolitik will decide against the upgrade than parochial lobbying will decide in favour, or that the WIT will be upgraded sheerly because it is the right thing to do. I would be only too delighted to let an impartial, international (non-Irish) expert group decide, given a mutually agreed, non-biased, remit; than to leave it down to a battle between lobbying versus realpolitik. That's the reality of the country we live in. FF don't do strategies -- I wish they would.0 -
Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 21860
Independent Waterford City Councillor Mary Roche has disputed Cllr Pat Hayes assertion, made in this newspaper last week, that a letter from Education Minister Batt O’Keeffe indicated a “no” decision on WIT’s application for university designation. “The application is still very much alive”, she maintained.
“I can understand the frustration that led to that comment from Pat”, says Cllr Roche, “but university designation can and must be given to Waterford and I, for one, remain confident. There is nothing in the Minister’s letter other than statements of fact (ie that ITs and universities have different missions) and I do not believe that the Minister has shut the door on this one. On the contrary I think the imperative grows stronger every day”.
“We must remember”, she said, “that both the University of Limerick (UL) and Dublin City University (DCU) were created at the time of our last serious economic crisis in the 80’s and both went on to assist their regions considerably in the fight to get out of that economic crisis.
“It’s not that I am cheerleading for this government,” she said, “far from it. But it is simply unthinkable that in face of mounting internationally respected opinion and in face of a well-developed and unassailable case for the designation of WIT that the government could ignore it all and give in to vested interests. It would go against all logical thinking”, she said. “Neither of the other two ITs seeking university designation have any of those things. All they have done is written a one-pager to the Minister seeking to attach themselves to WIT’s coat-tails”!
Source: http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/university-application-very-much-alive/0 -
She's the only person on that Council who thinks this application is still alive. 10 years was the timeframe I was given by several Councillors over a year a go.0
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invincableirish, what is your problem with Waterford.
All you do is bash and make snide remakrs about the place. You are ultra critical of any advancement or development for Waterford City being it University status for WIT or the development of the M9.
Do you oppose CIT's request for University status ?0
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