WIT University Status - "Its a big 'no'"

Shatner

dlofnep wrote: »

Population of Tralee is 20k, population of Waterford is 50k. That's not including the surrounding counties like Wexford & Kilkenny which have students that can travel to Waterford in 30-40 minutes.

There is less demand for a university in Tralee, and much more of a demand for one in Waterford. Your logic is abysmal.

Not at all. I'd love if the County Council built a swimming pool in my back garden. It would suit me down to the ground but I don't think it would benefit anyone else.

I don't think that people who live in a city of 50,000 demanding a university because it suits them are using abysmal logic. It is perfectly logical for them to want it. It doesn't mean that it is the correct course of action for the country, though.

merlante

Shatner wrote: »

I think there is a pretty strong rationale here:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/merge-ucd-with-trinity-to-create-a-top10-uni-2029318.html

Better to have quality than quantity.

I agree with you that there are too many unis/institutes in Dublin.

Waterford is not that far from Cork. No need for another university in the South.

This is exactly what I mean. Lots of 'we need less of everything so that the best gets better' ideological claptrap. It is just as poorly reasoned as 'parish pump' arguments. The Irish Independent, which is not an authority on anything (including news), is speculating that a combination of TCD and UCD would produce a top 10 university. Nowhere is it shown that a) this is actually possible or practicable, b) that the gains made would outmatch the losses of competitiveness and dynamicity of the Irish HE system coupled with a larger bureaucracy, c) that achieving a university ranked 10th in the world would be of more service to Ireland than two universities, one at 43rd, the other at 89th, d) that this would be in any way a sustainable strategy into the future given the constant improvement of non anglo-phone universities, particular in emerging countries and e) that aiming for ranking is anything more than embarking on a vanity project that takes funding away from the real business of running a HE system.

Waterford may not be 'that' far from Cork, but it is further away from Cork than Limerick, which is close to both UCC and UCG. If you want to talk about losing some quantity, pear back UL, DCU and NUIM, and upgrade WIT. This would give an ideal geographical and demographic spread. Not going to happen? Maybe not. But the fact of the matter is that a university is more of a requirement in the south east, than in the mid-west (smaller population and closer proximity to UCC and NUIG), east (NUIM should never have been created) or arguably the north of Dublin city.

And not to get parochial about it, but the south east, in which 12% of the state's population resides, is an economic disaster zone. Upgrading the WIT would make very sound spatial planning, because otherwise, the state will pay it out in benefits anyway.

As to those who insist the WIT does not 'deserve' to be upgraded. This argument is immaterial (and wrong imho). The fact that there is something to upgrade at all, and not a green field, only makes the task of creating a university easier. With appropriate legislative changes and equal access to funding, WIT would experience the same kind of growth as DCU and other 'new' universities, a decade ago.

fricatus

As far as the population argument goes, I think it's worth looking also at the immediate hinterland of the cities and not just their population "intra muros".

Within a 25 km radius of Galway, the population is 139k. The equivalent figure for the Waterford area is 124k. I don't think there's justification for Galway having a university and IT while Waterford only has an IT on that basis.

Another point is that if you look nationally, the Dublin area (population 1.5 million) has four universities, whereas the rest of the country (2.7 million) has only three. That sort of imbalance is madness.

Yes Boss

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'm long graduated from college "sunshine", I'm an actual productive member of society. It the next generation of students and the welfare of the South-east that I care about. There is a lower standard of living in Waterford compared to the other cities because of the lack of a university. Waterford has lost out on high value industries because they go where the unis are.

One has to wonder what your ulterior motive is on this thread.

MIT in Boston attracts more spin-off business to Boston than Harvard. As mentioned previously, we don't need a title, we need comparable finance so that we can provide the quality facilities and staff required to deliver world class courses!!

However, we would also need a change in mind set from the unions so that we could weed out the incompetent lecturers!!

merlante

Shatner wrote: »

Not at all. I'd love if the County Council built a swimming pool in my back garden. It would suit me down to the ground but I don't think it would benefit anyone else.

I don't think that people who live in a city of 50,000 demanding a university because it suits them are using abysmal logic. It is perfectly logical for them to want it. It doesn't mean that it is the correct course of action for the country, though.

A city of 50,000? How about a region of 450,000. What about Co.s Wexford, Kilkenny, South Tipp. and Carlow (not as vital for Carlow maybe)?

There are four universities in the Dublin area for about 1.5m people, and a very large, far better resourced IoT, and several smaller IoTs. The south east, at 450K is only seeking one university and one IoT. I mean come on.

I might also remind you that Galway and Limerick are cities of 73K and 90K, respectively, also far off justifying universities in their own right. In fact, when NUIG was built, Galway would have had a population of 15-20K.

merlante

Yes Boss wrote: »

MIT in Boston attracts more spin-off business to Boston than Harvard. As mentioned previously, we don't need a title, we need comparable finance so that we can provide the quality facilities and staff required to deliver world class courses!!

However, we would also need a change in mind set from the unions so that we could weed out the incompetent lecturers!!

It's not just a title. IoTs and universities are granted different rights and charters by law. Universities can essentially do anything they please. IoTs are very much restricted. Furthermore, IoTs find it very difficult to build out research infrastructure because of their status. Luckily, the status issue is meaningless in the context of European research funding, and to some extent Irish research funding.

merlante

fricatus wrote: »

As far as the population argument goes, I think it's worth looking also at the immediate hinterland of the cities and not just their population "intra muros".

Within a 25 km radius of Galway, the population is 139k. The equivalent figure for the Waterford area is 124k. I don't think there's justification for Galway having a university and IT while Waterford only has an IT on that basis.

No basis whatsoever.

The actually population argument is actually stronger than that. From the Atlantic Gateways Report on the Irish spatial strategy's website (http://bit.ly/cZxU9F): p.16

City Population (2002) 45min Catchment population (2002)
Cork 186 239 337 917
Limerick 86 998 326 279
Galway 66 163 175 836
Waterford 44 594 267 359
Dublin 1 004 614 1 423 5124

As can be seen from this table, Waterford's 45 min catchment population is substantially larger than that of Galway, comparable to Limerick and not that far off Cork.

Yes Boss

Was it not Chuck Feeney that financed Limerick University and DCU because they were in disadvantaged areas! However, that is a by the way.

I still don't understand why we cannot look at MIT (which is in the world top 10) as a model for moving forward with increased funding from central government!

Bards

Yes Boss wrote: »

Was it not Chuck Feeney that financed Limerick University and DCU because they were in disadvantaged areas! However, that is a by the way.

I still don't understand why we cannot look at MIT (which is in the world top 10) as a model for moving forward with increased funding from central government!

OK so - give WIT the combined budgets of all the other IT's if you want WIT to attain what MIT is doing

IIRC MIT has an annual budget of somewhere in the region of €1.5Bn

BTW MIT is a University (Just not in name) and has it own authority to decide what courses to offer wihtou recurse to either Federal or State for approval

Yes Boss

Bards wrote: »

OK so - give WIT the combined budgets of all the other IT's if you want WIT to attain what MIT is doing

IIRC MIT has an annual budget of somewhere in the region of €1.5Bn

BTW MIT is a University (Just not in name) and has it own authority to decide what courses to offer wihtou recurse to either Federal or State for approval

You are saying the same thing as i but in a different way. It is not the name we are after but the finance. Why not become a Technical specialist like MIT? (at an Irish scale).

merlante

Yes Boss wrote: »

I still don't understand why we cannot look at MIT (which is in the world top 10) as a model for moving forward with increased funding from central government!

Right, I'll take another shot at explaining it.

IoTs and Universities are established under Irish law (not some international standard), which specifies what each institution can and cannot do. IoTs are restricted in the type of courses they can offer and the amount and type of research they are supposed to be conducting. IoTs are unofficially the second tier of 3rd level education in Ireland, and are treated as such. It's not written down anywhere, but you know this is true as much as I do. So there are three problems really: 1) Restrictive remit, 2) Less funding and 3) Barely concealed lower regard of IoTs by the state.

MIT is not restricted in this way. In fact MIT is a university. The IT in MIT is just part of the name, it obviously bears no relation to the IoT as established in Irish law. Also, MIT has many non-technical faculties (e.g. School of Humanities, Arts, etc.) and describes itself as a research led university. IoTs cannot be research led in that sense, because that is not what they are chartered to do.

If WIT were to keep the name but be constituted under its own Act, with a similar remit to the universities, then half the problem would be solved. The other half concerns funding levels and the perception of IoTs.

I might add that WIT participates in EU projects on an equal level to universities and other institutes throughout Europe. Companies such as those the IDA bring into Ireland wouldn't know any difference, if somebody at some point didn't point out to them, aside, that (actually) IoTs are effectively second rate universities. The fact of the matter is, high tech companies dealt with by the IDA have steadfastly stayed away from Waterford in favour of Cork, Limerick and Galway. If IoTs are the same but different (i.e. technical in focus) then what is the problem with Waterford?

coolperson05

Seriously it just seems very obvious that the south east is just being denied a university for no reason. Like in fairness, NUIM? NUIW would have made much more sense. The amount of IT's around the country that have a couple of thousand of students and are draining thousands and millions of euro. Waterford is the only city in Ireland without a university. It is the fifth biggest place in Ireland and there is no earthly reason why it shouldnt get a university. I'm not saying that the standards there are up to scratch, i'm a student there I know the mismanagement, etc. But you cant just not try to make things better. WIT isn't on the lines of Carlow IT or Tralee IT or Letterkenny IT or DKIT and shouldnt be treated as such. Every other city in Ireland has a uni and an IT. Waterford needs the freedom and title of university. It simply stands better than others in the IT sector (albeit aside from DIT and maybe CIT but they have universities anyway! :P)

Hoffmans

The only place it would make sense to put a university in the south east would be kilkenny city, its more central,better serviced and less than an hour from the capital with the new motorway ,waterford has an i.t and thats all it will ever be as the cost of upgrading it would go near to building a new campus in our new public partnership investment world...

Odats

Hoffmans wrote: »

The only place it would make sense to put a university in the south east would be kilkenny city, its more central,better serviced and less than an hour from the capital with the new motorway ,waterford has an i.t and thats all it will ever be as the cost of upgrading it would go near to building a new campus in our new public partnership investment world...

As a proud Déise I would turn in my grave at this suggestion but with the head Hoffmans you have a valid point. I feel if they are going to create a new University to get around the quango and red tape of making all the IT's TU's thus basically diluting the status immediately then a purpose built university is the only solution for the South East. However, is there funds there to do this type of project and wouldn't a new university for the South East ultimately dilute WIT's stature if it were to remain in existence with a new USE.

merlante

Hoffmans wrote: »

The only place it would make sense to put a university in the south east would be kilkenny city, its more central,better serviced and less than an hour from the capital with the new motorway ,waterford has an i.t and thats all it will ever be as the cost of upgrading it would go near to building a new campus in our new public partnership investment world...

heheh. Good joke. Aside from Kilkenny not being the main centre in the south east, its road, rail and bus access is not as good as Waterford. Being closer to Dublin is an argument against rather than for. Also, WIT have already established a new campus at Carriganore, just outside the city off the N25 bypass and outer ring road.

Odats

merlante wrote: »

heheh. Good joke. Aside from Kilkenny not being the main centre in the south east, its road, rail and bus access is not as good as Waterford. Being closer to Dublin is an argument against rather than for. Also, WIT have already established a new campus at Carriganore, just outside the city off the N25 bypass and outer ring road.

I wouldn't call our rail network superior to KK as effectively we have one passenger service rail route and KK is the on the same route two stops up so that argument falls on deaf ears. Carriganore campus is a positive step in the right direction but isn't that mostly playing fields and sports facilities and sport science place. I know the TSSG crowd are based out there and are excellent aswell top notch IT research facility best in the country IMO. The point that I think Hoffmans is making is quite logical and cogent, and an alternative suggestion to upgrading along with all the other IT's. However, I would prefer the new USE to be based in Waterford over KK anyday.

merlante

Odats wrote: »

I wouldn't call our rail network superior to KK as effectively we have one passenger service rail route and KK is the on the same route two stops up so that argument falls on deaf ears. Carriganore campus is a positive step in the right direction but isn't that mostly playing fields and sports facilities and sport science place. I know the TSSG crowd are based out there and are excellent aswell top notch IT research facility best in the country IMO. The point that I think Hoffmans is making is quite logical and cogent, and an alternative suggestion to upgrading along with all the other IT's. However, I would prefer the new USE to be based in Waterford over KK anyday.

Well we have more services to Dublin than Kilkenny (slightly), and services to Limerick Junction, and, for the moment, Rosslare, so there is a better rail service. "Two stops up", i.e. closer to Dublin? But aren't they two stops further away from Waterford as well? Closeness to Dublin is not a sign of better infrastructure.

There will not be a green field university built in Waterford or anywhere else. We simply don't do that in Ireland. We create colleges with narrow remits and allow them to grow in all directions by stealth, until one day, after a mighty political push, an upgrade materialises. If we did things sensibly, a green field university would have been built in Waterford before UL, DCU and NUIM, on the basis of catchment populations and geographical distribution. But we don't, we play a parochial game in Ireland instead, alas.

This being the case, an upgrade is what needs to happen.

Odats

merlante wrote: »

Well we have more services to Dublin than Kilkenny (slightly), and services to Limerick Junction, and, for the moment, Rosslare, so there is a better rail service. "Two stops up", i.e. closer to Dublin? But aren't they two stops further away from Waterford as well? Closeness to Dublin is not a sign of better infrastructure.

There will not be a green field university built in Waterford or anywhere else. We simply don't do that in Ireland. We create colleges with narrow remits and allow them to grow in all directions by stealth, until one day, after a mighty political push, an upgrade materialises. If we did things sensibly, a green field university would have been built in Waterford before UL, DCU and NUIM, on the basis of catchment populations and geographical distribution. But we don't, we play a parochial game in Ireland instead, alas.

This being the case, an upgrade is what needs to happen.

UL and DCU were both NIHE's so both had to be upgraded not to create a disadvantage (parish politics I know). Maynooth was technically a pontifical university always and was just put into the NUI that when lay courses were added it's on the same site more or less.
I totally agree with your argument on it's closer to Dublin but my only fear is that if WIT gets upgraded all the IT's will start bitching and TD's start humming and hawning and all them get upgraded to TU's thus diluting the status. If this arises which could happen WIT is better off staying as WIT and no new university added unless it is a new site ideally in Waterford with WIT and IT's remaining. That is not going to happen with funding. Just think the argument of KK was based on geographic rather than demographic as it's more centrally located in the South East which could sway things if a greenfield site university ever got the go ahead.

dayshah

Where would you put it in Kilkenny? I don't know there so well. A lot of the students would be coming from Waterford, so I don't really see the point. Also a lot of students come from Wexford and Tipp. I think Waterford has the better bus connections.

I know I said WIT doesn't deserve uni status, but having read Merlante I think thats the whole point. We should upgrade WIT so it does deserve that status. The actual title doesn't bother me. It would really annoy me if we got uni status, taking the pressure off the government, but they didn't follow through with the funding. They could say, well we gave you what you asked for.

As for it being cheaper to build a greenfield site in KK. I doubt it. WIT has over 10,000 students and probably 1000 staff. So housing alone would be an issue. Even though WIT needs a staff upgrade, universities still hire lesser skilled staff for the easy courses.

Finally, I think the best thing would be if WIT can buy W Crystal. I don't like colleges spread all over the place. I think it would be good for education and the general student experience to keep everything concentrated together.

Professey Chin

dayshah wrote: »

Finally, I think the best thing would be if WIT can buy W Crystal. I don't like colleges spread all over the place. I think it would be good for education and the general student experience to keep everything concentrated together.

Id say the clean up costs of that site are ridiculous

merlante

Odats wrote: »

Just think the argument of KK was based on geographic rather than demographic as it's more centrally located in the South East which could sway things if a greenfield site university ever got the go ahead.

In no other region is the university in a centre other than the city and regional capital. There is sense to this, because this is where the bulk of the people live. Establishing a university in Kilkenny might appear more central, but the main roads of the region, the N24, N25 (both directions) and the M9 converge at Waterford. There is no proper road between Wexford town/New Ross/Enniscorthy and Kilkenny. The road between Clonmel and Kilkenny is probably a lot worse than the N24, and Carrick is not on that road. Tramore has to bypass Waterford and decent routes between Dungarvan and Kilkenny do not automatically suggest themselves. Moving the site away from Waterford towards Kilkenny might decrease the drive time from Carlow but would increase the drive time from every other centre of population in the region over 5,000 people.

Add to that the fact that the airport and other regional infrastructure are centralised at Waterford.

Odats

Weren't they going to buy the pitches from the centre but didn't have the funding at the time or committed to Carriganore (2nd seems logical) and don't have it now either so buying the old factory site would be hard but they should if they get finance as it would compliment it so much and no threat of planning objections with a certain individual gainfully employed in the college. As I said before main stumbling block is if it's made a fully fledged university or TU the others will kick up and parish pump politics get played and all are upgraded.

comeraghs

as far as WIT not being good enough to be upgraded ... an Independent study a number of years ago showed that WIT was already at University standard & would already be a Uni in Canada, Australia & most other western countries.

& as for Ireland having too many universities ... We have a population similar to Finland ... who have about 20 universities & are regarded as having one of the top 3 education systems in the world & the best in Europe.

The case for upgrading WIT to university is solid & should happen NOW!

Knowledge economy ... and all that ............. HA!

dayshah

Odats wrote: »

As I said before main stumbling block is if it's made a fully fledged university or TU the others will kick up and parish pump politics get played and all are upgraded.

If I ever become dictator the first thing I'll do is restore CIT LKIT etc to RTC status. That'll show em

Odats

merlante wrote: »

In no other region is the university in a centre other than the city and regional capital. There is sense to this, because this is where the bulk of the people live. Establishing a university in Kilkenny might appear more central, but the main roads of the region, the N24, N25 (both directions) and the M9 converge at Waterford. There is no proper road between Wexford town/New Ross/Enniscorthy and Kilkenny. The road between Clonmel and Kilkenny is probably a lot worse than the N24, and Carrick is not on that road. Tramore has to bypass Waterford and decent routes between Dungarvan and Kilkenny do not automatically suggest themselves. Moving the site away from Waterford towards Kilkenny might decrease the drive time from Carlow but would increase the drive time from every other centre of population in the region over 5,000 people.

Add to that the fact that the airport and other regional infrastructure are centralised at Waterford.

I agree fully with your point here. Waterford is the capital of the SE and rightly so it should be primary site for a university. Unfortunately we are left high and dry by the government and it wouldn't surprise me that a greenfield site new university went to KK on the basis of purely geographical location. I stated purely geographic in my last post not logistics, infrastructure, ancillary services. Something the government would bow to under the pressure of parish pump politics. Also, bear in mind Cork is a major factor also as and I bet you them rather than DIT would object first like they did last time and they have greater political clout.

merlante

Odats wrote: »

I agree fully with your point here. Waterford is the capital of the SE and rightly so it should be primary site for a university. Unfortunately we are left high and dry by the government and it wouldn't surprise me that a greenfield site new university went to KK on the basis of purely geographical location. I stated purely geographic in my last post not logistics, infrastructure, ancillary services. Something the government would bow to under the pressure of parish pump politics. Also, bear in mind Cork is a major factor also as and I bet you them rather than DIT would object first like they did last time and they have greater political clout.

To be fair, as corrupt and incompetent as this government is, I really couldn't see parish pump politics win this fight in this day and age, when drive times would increase for most of the south east just to satisfy Kilkenny egos. 20 years, maybe even 10, that's the sort of compromise that would have been on the cards, but I think we've moved on a bit since then.

In any case, the chance of a green field university being built in the south east is one in a million. I could see an arts faculty of a USE appearing in Kilkenny though.

Odats

Or Merlante a kinda University of Ulster model with USE Waterford (like a Jordanstown) as the main campus say for IT,Business,Eng faculties adding in new faculty for medicine merging with hospital (under RCSI training at the moment), say sub campuses in KK even Carlow or Wexford for Arts,Humanities kind of courses and other for another niche faculty.

coolperson05

Odats wrote: »

Or Merlante a kinda University of Ulster model with USE Waterford (like a Jordanstown) as the main campus say for IT,Business,Eng faculties adding in new faculty for medicine merging with hospital (under RCSI training at the moment), say sub campuses in KK even Carlow or Wexford for Arts,Humanities kind of courses and other for another niche faculty.

I really like this idea! Lets face it main campus is full. Simple as! So get rid of college street. Move humanities to say KK. And then integrate Carlow IT and Tipp Inst as all USE. And have 4 campuses. One main one in Waterford with Medicine, Nursing, Architect, Computers. Maybe Post Grad in Tipp Inst Clonmel with Business? Humanities (a proper humanities department) in KK and then Law/Sciences in Carlow. Gets rid of some of the smaller IT's and no-one college gets a full upgrade. DIT, GMIT and UU shows it can work.

dayshah

coolperson05 wrote: »

I really like this idea! Lets face it main campus is full. Simple as! So get rid of college street. Move humanities to say KK. And then integrate Carlow IT and Tipp Inst as all USE. And have 4 campuses. One main one in Waterford with Medicine, Nursing, Architect, Computers. Maybe Post Grad in Tipp Inst Clonmel with Business? Humanities (a proper humanities department) in KK and then Law/Sciences in Carlow. Gets rid of some of the smaller IT's and no-one college gets a full upgrade. DIT, GMIT and UU shows it can work.

What possible advantage (apart from political) is held by diluting an institution?

Recreation facilities suffer
Library access suffer
Computer facilities suffer
Inability for staff in different faculties to cooperate
Students don't interact with other students studying different topics
Basically much of the non-academic educational experience suffers
Any cross-faculty cooperation suffers
Greater administration costs
Harder to attract good staff and students (who wants to go to Clonmel to study)

Just look at how College St students complain about poor facilities. This is what decentralisation of a university causes.

Odats

Couldn't see a Clonmel campus open as that's a sub campus of Tipp Inst main one and that's in Thurles. Including Tipp Inst in a USE is a non runner from the start. If USE here was to go ahead on a main campus and sub campus strategy it would be Waterford as the main with Carlow and KK as sub campuses.
daysha has valid arguments regarding all under the one roof and economies of scale which in the ideal world should be the case.
Waterford Glass factory is the solution but could prove to be a pig in a poke with cleaning up the site to be fit for development which would could run into a significant cost.