WIT University Status - "Its a big 'no'"

Nolanger

Bards wrote: »

this will be another Grab from Waterford to make it less of a City so the other towns can claim to be the capital of the S.E

There's only one place Waterford City is going and that's downhill. Other cities are coming on and expanding in size. FG will cut back on everything in Waterford.

AdMMM

There will be at least some information released on this tomorrow in the Dáil.

nkay1985

AdMMM wrote: »

There will be at least some information released on this tomorrow in the Dáil.

Good information?

AdMMM

Whatever the Government is forced to divulge .

Hopefully something along the lines of whether or not full university status is being considered anymore for Waterford (while it's something we all might know, it will be good one way or another to have this on official record), why the government prefer a untested multi-campus option that would require significant re-organisation, have the government clarify their interpretation of the differences between universities, technical universities and institutes of technology. Hopefully seek an assurance that multi-campus entities won't become a zero-sum game ala the RTC's all being automatically upgraded to IoT status and finally to seek a timeline for the Governments plans as far as Waterford is concerned.

The questions have to be short and direct so that the Minister can't dance around them so hopefully we'll have some kind of idea of what the Government has in store for Waterford and South East after tomorrow. Hopefully.

AdMMM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd6Njg9L-b8

No new university in the life of this Government. Minister waffled a bit which meant time expired before a further follow up question could be asked.

mecco

AdMMM wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd6Njg9L-b8

No new university in the life of this Government. Minister waffled a bit which meant time expired before a further follow up question could be asked.

Thats interesting, the minister said no to a simple re-branding of an IT as a university, based on the fact there is currently 7 in the country. He seemed to suggest there will be a process made available for an IT to become a technological university, and he sounded in agreement (or at least sympathetic) with the points John Halligan made about why WIT should be considered.

This "process" will be interesting for a couple of reasons:

Once completed, will another process simply be created again as has been done before?
Presuming its an achievable process, will there be a limit on the number of Technlogical universities created?
What do they mean by Technological University? Will it have the same autonomy and supports as current universities do, but with a stated "technological" focus?

And last but not least, do I have faith in politicians to stand over anything said?

tombliboo83

Another slap in the face for Waterford. Technological University my bum like, we want and need a proper University. Ridiculous that there wasn't more time for a more robust Q and A on such a serious isue..

AdMMM

The Order of Business is strictly adhered to in the Dáil and there is rarely any exception to this. There will be Written Questions submitted to the Minister now and I'm sure that he will elaborate on his plans with his answer to these.

O Riain

Thought halligan came across very well. Tbh doesn't sound all doom and gloom. This technological uni could actually be a god send. Provided we are the only place in the country to have it. Something unique to us.

AdMMM

The problem is that other IoT's around the country have already announced their intention to band together to become a Technological University (DIT, IADT, ITB and ITT have already had meetings).

What I'm interested in is what criteria will be set-out for IoT's wanting to pursue the route of becoming a Technical University to stop these "me-too" applications that do nothing but dilute the severity and importance of this issue for this region of the country.

I definitely think that the Minister's answer raises more questions than it answered!

O Riain

AdMMM wrote: »

The problem is that other IoT's around the country have already announced their intention to band together to become a Technological University (DIT, IADT, ITB and ITT have already had meetings).

What I'm interested in is what criteria will be set-out for IoT's wanting to pursue the route of becoming a Technical University to stop these "me-too" applications that do nothing but dilute the severity and importance of this issue for this region of the country.

I definitely think that the Minister's answer raises more questions than it answered!

I actually don't think there will be Many more than ourselves filling the criteria, otherwise they will have to provide extra funding to every IT in Ireland, which we all know at this point is not possible, surely a rule as simple as "provided there is no existing university within 100km" of an IT wanting to upgrade then it can be upgraded. This would open up the south east and surely Sligo IT and letterkenny would not be strong enough to become tech UNis, without sounding too condescending to them

Sully

WIT has been meeting with CIT for sometime also. Carlow refused the proposal of merging.

Nolanger

Why couldn't WIT have merged with John's College to form a university?

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

WIT has been meeting with CIT for sometime also. Carlow refused the proposal of merging.

I'm sorry but are they absolute complete idiots? What were the benefits refusing?????? Do they think they can be a standalone university?

Sully

O Riain wrote: »

I'm sorry but are they absolute complete idiots? What were the benefits refusing?????? Do they think they can be a standalone university?

Carlow are talking to Tralee IIRC.

CantGetNoSleep

One lecture in Carlow then following one in Tralee, great idea, the bell-ends

merlante

This all seems pretty clear -- clearer than FF ever were anyway, and it seems like as good a piece of news as could be expected. If WIT became a technological university, there is always the possibility of full university status in the future. I tend to think that given a proper break, i.e. any kind of autonomy and reasonable funding, WIT will grow very quickly, sheerly by being the main institution in one of the more populated regions of the country. This population and cultural power base will eventually get it over the line in the years to come, imho.

The key thing at this stage is to be separated very clearly from the IoT sector, which by and large is composed of relatively weak institutions, save a few. Also key is to get the level of autonomy needed for WIT (or whatever) to spread its wings.

It seems clear that DIT + other Dublin IoTs will band together to form a technological university. I think, and the rumours in the dying days of the last government seemed to confirm this, that there will be one more technological university created -- maybe two but they really won't want to devalue the currency by having more than two. So as I see it, if there are only two created and one is DIT, then the battleground centres around the composition of the Waterford based one -- because I think that given what was in the programme for government, WIT will certainly be a part of it.

In this case, one of two things could happen:
i) A technological university for the south east is created with Waterford IT, Carlow IT, Tipp. Inst., etc.
ii) A technological university will be created around WIT and CIT.
(This would occur as follows: the criteria are selected for the creation of a technological university such that only DIT and an amalgamation of WIT and CIT can possible fit the bill. The end result probably being that the technological university for the south east is knocked on the head in favour of a university of the south?)

i) is obviously what should happen. There is no top tier institution in the south east of Ireland, and given the population, this is a disgrace. ii) is what could easily happen if Cork do their usual routine of kicking up unholy murder on behalf of CIT as soon as they see that Waterford might get something. They will want to be treated equally -- despite the existence of UCC down the road -- and the easiest thing for the government to do -- if they are let away with it -- would be to lump Cork in with Waterford and kill two birds with the one stone.

So the way I see it, you have to pick your battles, and the battle that absolutely must be won now is to get a technological university for the south east established, with south east institutes only.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

one of the more populated regions of the country.

You seem to make a lot of arguments based on population. I don't know if this helps or hinders your argument, but here is an interesting map (from Clare CoCo).


I think a proper university would be good for Waterford and environs, but what convincing arguments are there that it is good for the rest of the country?

AdMMM

Undoubtedly, a university in Waterford would have a negative effect on the other Universities in the country who will see a fall in admissions due to Waterford applicants choosing to stay in Waterford and indeed applicants from other areas of the country opting to go to the university in our region. This is one of the contributing reasons why this issue has been a political hot potato for so long.

I personally think that we have enough universities in Ireland but, crucially, they're located in the wrong places to ensure balance regional development. Has the idea of "de-centralising" one of the existing universities ever been considered?

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

You seem to make a lot of arguments based on population. I don't know if this helps or hinders your argument, but here is an interesting map (from Clare CoCo).


I think a proper university would be good for Waterford and environs, but what convincing arguments are there that it is good for the rest of the country?

Those maps are pretty but often don't tell you what you want to know. In any case, for regions and populations, you can find them conveniently here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUTS_3_statistical_regions_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Regional Authority Population (2006) % of population Area (km²) Population density Capital(s) NUTS code
Border 468,375 11.05 12,345.61 37.9 Dundalk, Sligo, Letterkenny, Monaghan, Cavan IE011
Dublin 1,187,176 28.0 920.66 1,289.5 Dublin IE021
Mid-East 475,360 11.21 6,061.34 78.4 Naas IE022
Mid-West 361,028 8.52 8,248.64 43.8 Limerick IE023
Midland 251,664 5.94 6,625.38 38.0 Athlone IE012
South-East 460,838 10.87 9,451.51 48.8 Waterford IE024
South-West 621,130 14.65 12,242.23 50.7 Cork IE025
West 414,277 9.77 14,286.87 29.0 Galway IE013

It's not just a question of population density, it's also a question of catchment and region size. For example, the mid-west is a smaller region, sandwiched between the South-west and the West. There is a greater hinterland extending out from Waterford than there is from Limerick.

You will notice that every region over a population of 361,028 has a university serving it, except for the Border and South-East regions. The Border region is not a natural region -- for obvious reasons -- and in any case, much of it is served by the University of Ulster, Magee Campus, in Derry, and by universities in Dublin and the Mid-East. The South-East stands out as a sore thumb as having a large population and no university within 100km of Waterford or 120km of Wexford.

In fact, Dublin & Mid-East has one university for every 400K -- 4 universities -- whereas the South-East, with 460K, is not provided for. Only other region without a university is the Midlands with only 250K population, which is not enough to warrant a university, if we're being consistent.

merlante

AdMMM wrote: »

Undoubtedly, a university in Waterford would have a negative effect on the other Universities in the country who will see a fall in admissions due to Waterford applicants choosing to stay in Waterford and indeed applicants from other areas of the country opting to go to the university in our region. This is one of the contributing reasons why this issue has been a political hot potato for so long.

I personally think that we have enough universities in Ireland but, crucially, they're located in the wrong places to ensure balance regional development. Has the idea of "de-centralising" one of the existing universities ever been considered?

I think the negative effect would be small and would phase in over a number of years. Might not even be noticed if universities continue to grow. Also, it's not a zero sum game, more students would go to college in the south east that would never have gone before due to the proximity of the institution. The upgrade would increase access to third level education, and therefore Ireland's score on higher education rankings.

Decentralising a university would be out of the question for many reasons.

---
@dayshah Forgot to address your second point about whether university would be good for Ireland.

As I said above, it would be good for access, good for helping the south east play a full part in the economic productivity of the country, ultimately keeping people off the dole and creating new business, etc. This is good for the south east but also good for the country.

In any case, even if it did nothing for the rest of the country, there is the concept of the social contract in the theory of the legitimacy of states, that implies that one section of the people are as entitled to state provision as another section (of the same population), and considering every other large region is served by a university, the south-east would be, on the face of it, entitled to the same.

Max Powers

Todays Irish Times

RUAIRÍ QUINN insisted there would be no “rebranded university” as long as he was Minister for Education. “I wish to be honest with members,” he said.
The Minister was replying to Waterford Independent TD John Halligan, who asked if a promise in the programme for government to explore a multi-campus technical university in the southeast meant full university status would be delivered.
Mr Quinn said he fully understood and sympathised with the sentiments expressed in Wexford, Carlow and Waterford on the need for a top-class university.
“However, that has to be balanced with where we are at the present time,” he added.
There were seven universities and the Dublin Institute of Technology in Ireland, which were among the top 500 universities in the world. Two of them were in the top 100, he added.
Mr Quinn said Ireland should learn from what happened in Britain when the rebranding of polytechnics, similar to our institutes of technology, devalued the concept of a university.
“That is not the way to go,” he added. “It would damage the university sector in its entirety to simply change the name of an institute.” Mr Quinn said the Hunt report and the programme for government had set out a path for a technological university.
He was aware, he added, of the standards that had been achieved in Waterford Institute of Technology (WIT), which should play to its own strengths. A path was open to WIT to pursue a technological university structure.
Mr Halligan said that in opposition Fine Gael and Labour had unequivocally stated there was an imbalance in the southeast region because of the lack of a university.
He added that the population of the southeast was 450,000. “Within a 45-minute radius of WIT the population is 267,000, whereas within the same radius of Galway it is 167,000,” said Mr Halligan.
“The critical mass exists in the southeast for a university. The latest statistic for entry to third level in Waterford and the southeast was 11.2 per cent, as opposed to 15.2 per cent nationally and 22 per cent in Dublin. Surely that highlights the case for full university status.
“It has been proven that many people who leave their home areas to attend university do not return.” He asked why the southeast should be different from the midwest or the west, which had full universities.

Bards

AdMMM wrote: »

I personally think that we have enough universities in Ireland but, crucially, they're located in the wrong places to ensure balance regional development. Has the idea of "de-centralising" one of the existing universities ever been considered?

I brought this up when FUSE was formed. In that how come dublin has one University for every 250,000 inhabitants but the S.E has none for almost 500,000 inhabitants.

If they are adament that no new University was to be created than one of the Dublin ones should be forced to wind down over time and WIT Elevated

Deise Tom

Do people feel fooled by Fine Gael and in particular Enda Kenny on the topic of a University for Waterford or more over for the South East. It was not all that long ago that members of the party were telling us on here that we were getting one.

Sully

Deise Tom wrote: »

Do people feel fooled by Fine Gael and in particular Enda Kenny on the topic of a University for Waterford or more over for the South East. It was not all that long ago that members of the party were telling us on here that we were getting one.

We are getting a University. We are getting one for the South East. For the first time we have a government who are willing to stop dawdling and pussyfooting around the issue, and have instead came out within weeks of being elected and confirmed the case while also putting the item on the agenda through the programme for government. Fianna Fail refused to listen to the arguments for the case, kept looking for report after reported, and were not supporting (despite promising) a case for any formation of University for the South East.

But. We are just not getting the type of University we have been campaigning for. That is the most disappointing.

CantGetNoSleep

Sully wrote: »

We are getting a University. We are getting one for the South East. For the first time we have a government who are willing to stop dawdling and pussyfooting around the issue, and have instead came out within weeks of being elected and confirmed the case while also putting the item on the agenda through the programme for government. Fianna Fail refused to listen to the arguments for the case, kept looking for report after reported, and were not supporting (despite promising) a case for any formation of University for the South East.

But. We are just not getting the type of University we have been campaigning for. That is the most disappointing.

We're not getting a University

mecco

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

We're not getting a University

We are not being simply given a university, true.

It seems to me however that we need to wait and see how they formalize this technological university concept. If it gets the same rights and supports as the other top tier educational facilities, then they can call it whatever the hell they like in my opinion.

So the first step is to keep on at the government to actually present their idea of a technological university, and not let it slide into oblivion as politicians are wont to do.

The other thing is to keep pushing all the facets (educational, regional, etc) of the case for WIT to be the institute that gets that "upgrade"

mecco

Deise Tom wrote: »

Do people feel fooled by Fine Gael and in particular Enda Kenny on the topic of a University for Waterford or more over for the South East. It was not all that long ago that members of the party were telling us on here that we were getting one.

I felt fooled by the last lot as they took us for mugs with constant patronizing brush offs. Fine Gael have yet to prove or disprove their quality on this issue. As tempting as it is for me to tar them all with the same brush, I'll give them the opportunity to deal with it first.

And I'm a supporter of no political party or politician, for what thats worth

Psychedelic

I agree with Sully, disappointed about no full blown university status for WIT but happy that the Government are at least paving the way for a technological university which is a start. One thing for certain is that if FF were still in power there would be zero progress on the university issue.

Deise Tom

Sully wrote: »

We are getting a University. We are getting one for the South East. For the first time we have a government who are willing to stop dawdling and pussyfooting around the issue, and have instead came out within weeks of being elected and confirmed the case while also putting the item on the agenda through the programme for government. Fianna Fail refused to listen to the arguments for the case, kept looking for report after reported, and were not supporting (despite promising) a case for any formation of University for the South East.

But. We are just not getting the type of University we have been campaigning for. That is the most disappointing.

So what they were talking about on Desie Am this morning and on the WLR news this morning is a load of crap is it.