WIT University Status - "Its a big 'no'"

Deise Tom · 25-03-2011 1:24pm

Psychedelic wrote: »

One thing for certain is that if FF were still in power there would be zero progress on the university issue.

Is that any different to saying before an election that there will be one (or at least some people said they said it) and then after an election saying that there wont be one.

merlante · 25-03-2011 1:37pm

Deise Tom wrote: »

So what they were talking about on Desie Am this morning and on the WLR news this morning is a load of crap is it.

To be fair this whole thing has taken on a strange spin since a fairly straight forward Dail question yesterday has been converted into pretty biased press coverage. Waterford has been flat out denied a university under the 1997 Universities act, that is true, but the programme for government promised a technological university (would be investigated). So I don't get the surprise, or the negative coverage.

It was always going to be a technological university. The "no more universities lobby" is too strong, whilst the case for a university of some description in the south east is also too strong to ignore completely. Add to that, DIT's aspirations to elevate itself beyond the rabble (once again) and you have an ideal compromise in the idea of a technological university. I believe this is what we will get over the course of this government, if it lasts long enough. The only question will be whether it will be a south east institution or a merger with Cork IT. This will be the main battle ground. You have to pick your battles at this point.

jbwan · 25-03-2011 2:03pm

merlante wrote: »

To be fair this whole thing has taken on a strange spin since a fairly straight forward Dail question yesterday has been converted into pretty biased press coverage. Waterford has been flat out denied a university under the 1997 Universities act, that is true, but the programme for government promised a technological university (would be investigated). So I don't get the surprise, or the negative coverage.

It was always going to be a technological university. The "no more universities lobby" is too strong, whilst the case for a university of some description in the south east is also too strong to ignore completely. Add to that, DIT's aspirations to elevate itself beyond the rabble (once again) and you have an ideal compromise in the idea of a technological university. I believe this is what we will get over the course of this government, if it lasts long enough. The only question will be whether it will be a south east institution or a merger with Cork IT. This will be the main battle ground. You have to pick your battles at this point.

Agreed.

Hopefully the case will be made (undeniably so) that this must be a Southeast university. Cork doesn't need to be brought into the fold. It's not partisan politics speaking but just the simple facts that CIT and UCC are already working very well together and certainly do not need to spread themselves further East. Waterford, Wexford, Kilkenny, and South Tipp however, do need a hub and that hub should not be any further West than is absolutely necessary.

Here's hoping that common sense will prevail. At least Mícheál Martin isn't at the helm this time and there's a chance of cop-on being adhered to.

Psychedelic · 25-03-2011 3:35pm

Deise Tom wrote: »

Is that any different to saying before an election that there will be one (or at least some people said they said it) and then after an election saying that there wont be one.

It is different. Both Fine Gael and Labour did not make an outright promise to grant university status to WIT. They gave themselves a little bit of leeway in the way they phrased it, saying things like "we will trigger the process to allow WIT to reach university status..." or "we support a universtity in the South East....." so it's not like they have broken promises.

The way I see it:

FF were in power from 2005 (when WIT made its formal application for university status) to 2011 and nothing was been done towards a university. Their legacy is the Hunt Report which doesn't recommend full university status for Waterford.
FG/Labour in power a few days and they are talking about a technological universtity in the South East in their programme for Government, and a few weeks later now seem committed to that.

MoodRacer · 25-03-2011 4:03pm

nkay1985 wrote: »

Location: Liatroim eh?.........I'l say no more.

This is another slap in the face for the south east if this is true. It's not just for the benefit of Waterford. It's Wexford, Kilkennmy, Tipperary, even Cork, and plenty more besides.

We're losing loads of jobs in Waterford Crystal. Honeywell have been on short time for quite a while. I'm typing this while out on short time from Bauscha& Lomb. Only Genzyme seem truly strong. The only way we can hope to replace these jobs is by having a higher recognised standard of education, in the form of a University. Attract all those jobs the government are talking about, the "knowledge-led economy". It's all just cheap talk as usual.

Agree 100%. Looks like we got rid of one shower of lying bastards and voted in another. It`s not so long ago that I had candidates from both FG and Lab at my door telling me that WIT upgrade to Uni status was a major priority from them. Obviously not that major a priotity.

Bards · 25-03-2011 5:32pm

Our FG & Lab TD's are noted for their silence on this. Just another reason for not voting with one of the established parties(Insiders) ever.

nkay1985 · 25-03-2011 6:23pm

MoodRacer wrote: »

Agree 100%. Looks like we got rid of one shower of lying bastards and voted in another. It`s not so long ago that I had candidates from both FG and Lab at my door telling me that WIT upgrade to Uni status was a major priority from them. Obviously not that major a priotity.

You're going back two years with that quote!

I'm not quite sure how to take this. If it were FF coming out with something like this, I'd see it as just another way to sidestep the issue but they're not in power anymore and I'm going to give the new government a chance. If they renege, draw it out or fudge it then I'll berate them but let's just see how it goes for now. While I think we need full University status, this would be a good first step if it were to happen. Definitely agree that it needs to be for the South East though.

jmcc · 25-03-2011 8:55pm

So it is the same sh*t with different sh*theads in government? Bloody gombeen government.

Regards...jmcc

Gardner · 26-03-2011 4:09am

Sully wrote: »

We are getting a University. We are getting one for the South East. For the first time we have a government who are willing to stop dawdling and pussyfooting around the issue, and have instead came out within weeks of being elected and confirmed the case while also putting the item on the agenda through the programme for government. Fianna Fail refused to listen to the arguments for the case, kept looking for report after reported, and were not supporting (despite promising) a case for any formation of University for the South East.

But. We are just not getting the type of University we have been campaigning for. That is the most disappointing.

Will you cop on sully!

You as a campaigner for FG in the last election, you personally lied to the constituents on behalf of Deasy and Coffey! Its fact and not twisting of words or however you like to it to been renamed!

We are lucky as constituents of Waterford to elect John Halligan and have some to stick up for us instead of these incompetent fools in FG and Lab. Imagine if Kenneally was elected ahead of John we would be left unrepresented by these 4 idiots!

Waterford has enough and has had enough of incompetent politicians and their supporters!

Sully · 26-03-2011 1:24pm

Gardner wrote: »

Will you cop on sully!

You as a campaigner for FG in the last election, you personally lied to the constituents on behalf of Deasy and Coffey! Its fact and not twisting of words or however you like to it to been renamed!

We are lucky as constituents of Waterford to elect John Halligan and have some to stick up for us instead of these incompetent fools in FG and Lab. Imagine if Kenneally was elected ahead of John we would be left unrepresented by these 4 idiots!

Waterford has enough and has had enough of incompetent politicians and their supporters!

Strong choice of words again Gardner. I wont repeat myself for you but I made my thoughts clear on how I feel with the announcement and before with the programme for government all in this thread. Likewise on Facebook to a Journalist, publically for the world to see.

Many people are, as you can read, happy that the government have acknowledged we have a case and will be giving us a University. Just not the type we wanted, but a new type. Well I welcome that news, as its better then being told "AH no, we were never going to give ye anything but thanks for the vote!", it doesn't in any shape or form distract that I personally feel a tad mislead by the whole affair and its not what I and others have campaigned and called for over the years.

Perhaps, rather then pointing the finger firmly at Fine Gael, a focus should be returned to Labour? We have a newly elected Labour candidate and Labour have pledged University for the South East also. Its Labour in government and its Labour who hold the Ministerial post. Its the same Labour government and TD which have point blank stated they wont give WIT the normal University Status while he is minister.

You and I both know that in a coalition, some pledges and promises are out the window and we have a mixture of policies. It would look that the University for the South East as we wanted is sold out, but a compromise instead has been given as an olive branch to confirm we haven't been forgotten and at least part of the pledge will be acted upon.

Unlike our previous government, Fianna Fail, despite their promises and pledges for such - they never wanted to give it to us in any shape or form and kept kicking the idea around and delaying the announcement etc. Fianna Fail shafted us, in more ways the one, and were never under their watch going to give us anything. But for once, there is some light at the end of the tunnel and finally the South East is being taken into consideration by a government but just not 100% the way we wanted.

While you, I and others are disappointed and annoyed - lets look at some of the positives out of this news. Does the fight go on? Its for the public to decide.

Gardner · 27-03-2011 2:08am

If you read my post you would see that my finger was firmly pointed at Ciara Conway and Labour also.

How can you take any positives from this????? In your blue shirt eyes maybe but not to the rest of us.

Years ago we were WRTC, they put a fancy rename on it to Institute of Technology and all RTC followed suite to rename.

Same thing been done here from Institute of Technology to this so called part time University.

poor form Sully, stop digging a hole for yourself mate!

dayshah · 27-03-2011 6:14am

In fairness, who believed we would get a university? We got no firm commitment from any party for Mickey Mouse university status, let alone proper university statue.

I think we should cooperate with DIT and try get both institutions polytechnic status or something to set up apart from the rest of them.

Deise Tom · 27-03-2011 12:08pm

dayshah wrote: »

In fairness, who believed we would get a university?

Not me.

Anyone who thinks that this government that we have now will be better than the ones that preceeded it are easily fooled.

Guramoogah · 27-03-2011 6:55pm

Waterford and the South East are better off with a top-notch Institute of Technology rather than a bottom-of-the-table University, in my humble opinion.

Nolanger · 27-03-2011 7:13pm

Uni or not, the best and brightest will still leave.

merlante · 27-03-2011 11:44pm

Guramoogah wrote: »

Waterford and the South East are better off with a top-notch Institute of Technology rather than a bottom-of-the-table University, in my humble opinion.

Really? Can you name the 'worst' university in the state as things stand? (Without looking for league tables.) Probably not. According to this: http://www.topuniversities.com/country-guides/ireland, it's University of Limerick, est. 1989, but DCU, also est. 1989, is ahead of NUI Maynooth, which has been a university in one shape or form since 1795.

So if WIT were upgraded, it wouldn't necessarily be 'the worst' for long. And anyway, people have largely forgotten that DCU and UL are 'new' or in any sense inferior, and they have been well able to stand up for themselves and compete with universities established before, and in some cases well before, the 20th century.

Also, we *would* actually be better off with the worst university if it was operating at a higher level than the WIT is now... obviously enough.

merlante · 27-03-2011 11:45pm

Nolanger wrote: »

Uni or not, the best and brightest will still leave.

I can assure you, I'm still here.

dayshah · 28-03-2011 7:25am

If WIT becomes a uni, what will happen to all the cert and diploma courses (or whatever they are called now)?

jbwan · 28-03-2011 2:55pm

dayshah wrote: »

If WIT becomes a uni, what will happen to all the cert and diploma courses (or whatever they are called now)?

I hate this scaremongering that has been wrongly touted around since day one. National Cert and Diploma are all but long gone from our IoTs. Diploma has been almost fully replaced by the 3-year, ordinary level degree with the optional honours degree follow-on. It's the evolution of the education system and has nothing to do with university status. People shout about the cert and diploma loss as if it was a raising of the bar, preventing people from getting in the door when the opposite is the truth and the introduction of an ordinary level degree is responsible for allowing access to degree level education for many who would otherwise not have had the chance (nor choice). It's an upgrade that includes even more people, giving them a chance to fight in the job market on an equal footing rather than distinguishing degrees from diplomas.

The points system will remain in place; Courses will still be tailored to prospective participants (because a Uni will have the power to do so); Anyone who wants the opportunity to acquire an education on this level will be afforded the opportunity. The problem most people have is that they can't move on from the old lingo and a degree is still somehow a more arty, farty, high level thing. Education has evolved, degrees are technical and practical, a leveling of the playing field has helped numerous people from being struck off on first glance of a CV. We need to stop this nonsense and realise what is important for the region and ourselves rather than being nostalgic about phrasing and titles.

Nolanger · 28-03-2011 6:18pm

How many jobs in Waterford actually require a university degree?

AdMMM · 28-03-2011 7:13pm

Nolanger wrote: »

How many jobs in Waterford actually require a university degree?

Isn't that half the argument? Reputable and well paying companies aren't setting up in places like Waterford because of the lack of university graduates in the area.

Nolanger · 28-03-2011 7:32pm

What happens when our corporation tax goes up? They won't come here then, uni or no uni.

dayshah · 28-03-2011 7:51pm

jbwan wrote: »

I hate this scaremongering that has been wrongly touted around since day one. National Cert and Diploma are all but long gone from our IoTs. Diploma has been almost fully replaced by the 3-year, ordinary level degree with the optional honours degree follow-on. It's the evolution of the education system and has nothing to do with university status. People shout about the cert and diploma loss as if it was a raising of the bar, preventing people from getting in the door when the opposite is the truth and the introduction of an ordinary level degree is responsible for allowing access to degree level education for many who would otherwise not have had the chance (nor choice). It's an upgrade that includes even more people, giving them a chance to fight in the job market on an equal footing rather than distinguishing degrees from diplomas.

The points system will remain in place; Courses will still be tailored to prospective participants (because a Uni will have the power to do so); Anyone who wants the opportunity to acquire an education on this level will be afforded the opportunity. The problem most people have is that they can't move on from the old lingo and a degree is still somehow a more arty, farty, high level thing. Education has evolved, degrees are technical and practical, a leveling of the playing field has helped numerous people from being struck off on first glance of a CV. We need to stop this nonsense and realise what is important for the region and ourselves rather than being nostalgic about phrasing and titles.

I don't particularly care what they are called now. Unfortunately certs and diplomas were devalued by altering the marks required for a top grade and to progress to the next level. The universities don't offer Cert courses.

I am concerned because certs and diplomas are an excellent back door into education. A 3-year programme is a huge commitment for an adult wishing to return to education. A 1 year Cert course is less of a risk, and people out of education for a long time are more likely to test the water for 1 year (and come out with something relatively quickly) than commit to 3 years.

I thought 'ordinary level degree' was just the new name for a diploma.

Anyway, my concern is that a university might not give such courses the attention I think they deserve, and instead promote Masters and PhD programmes which is where WIT falls down with respect to the universities.

O Riain · 28-03-2011 8:41pm

dayshah wrote: »

I don't particularly care what they are called now. Unfortunately certs and diplomas were devalued by altering the marks required for a top grade and to progress to the next level. The universities don't offer Cert courses.

I am concerned because certs and diplomas are an excellent back door into education. A 3-year programme is a huge commitment for an adult wishing to return to education. A 1 year Cert course is less of a risk, and people out of education for a long time are more likely to test the water for 1 year (and come out with something relatively quickly) than commit to 3 years.

I thought 'ordinary level degree' was just the new name for a diploma.

Anyway, my concern is that a university might not give such courses the attention I think they deserve, and instead promote Masters and PhD programmes which is where WIT falls down with respect to the universities.

Anyone who thinks a one year course is worth anything is kidding themselves.

dayshah · 28-03-2011 8:55pm

O Riain wrote: »

Anyone who thinks a one year course is worth anything is kidding themselves.

I know of people who were computer illiterate and benefited from a 10 week FÁS course. That was worth something.

I learned to drive in far less than 1 year. My driving licence is worth something.

A 1 year Cert is also a back door to a degree. It allows someone discover if they like the subject or not. And its definitely worth more than 1 year of a degree course and then dropping out.

dayshah · 28-03-2011 8:58pm

Nolanger wrote: »

How many jobs in Waterford actually require a university degree?

Plenty of jobs in places like Genzyme. Plenty in the service sector: solicitors, accountants, doctors.

People might ask what use is such a such degree. After college, its up to the student to make the most of what they learned.

O Riain · 28-03-2011 10:17pm

dayshah wrote: »

I know of people who were computer illiterate and benefited from a 10 week FÁS course. That was worth something.

I learned to drive in far less than 1 year. My driving licence is worth something.

A 1 year Cert is also a back door to a degree. It allows someone discover if they like the subject or not. And its definitely worth more than 1 year of a degree course and then dropping out.

driving license - not related to 3rd level.
FAS computer course - not related to 3rd level.

I've yet to meet someone who has done a cert course and then move on to a degree, why not just do the degree????
People dropping out is irrelevent im sure people drop out of one year courses too, if you dont drop out of a one year course you've basically next to nothin to show for it whereas if you dont drop out of a degree you have somethin genuine you can use to get a well paid job.
Im sorry if this offends anyone doing a one year course or going for one but lets face facts here they are pointless, you either need to be properly skilled for a job i.e. an engineer or you dont i.e. a cash register assistant.
To drag down our need for a university by saying it will undermine these pointless course's is absolutely ridiculous.

jbwan · 29-03-2011 3:51pm

dayshah wrote: »

I don't particularly care what they are called now. Unfortunately certs and diplomas were devalued by altering the marks required for a top grade and to progress to the next level. The universities don't offer Cert courses.

I am concerned because certs and diplomas are an excellent back door into education. A 3-year programme is a huge commitment for an adult wishing to return to education. A 1 year Cert course is less of a risk, and people out of education for a long time are more likely to test the water for 1 year (and come out with something relatively quickly) than commit to 3 years.

There isn't (and never was) any such thing as a 1-year National Cert. Anything less than 2 years is a FETAC training course. Anyone undertaking an adult education (night time) course always had a longer duration than full time students for the same qualification anyhow. Add-on certs like these are to dabble in new areas or bolster position in existing job. Anyone serious about changing direction won't do so in 8 months (i.e. contact time).

dayshah wrote: »

I thought 'ordinary level degree' was just the new name for a diploma.

That's what I said.

dayshah wrote: »

Anyway, my concern is that a university might not give such courses the attention I think they deserve, and instead promote Masters and PhD programmes which is where WIT falls down with respect to the universities.

Unfounded concern, bordering on scaremongering. How exactly is WIT falling down at the moment with respect to the universities? Are you suggesting that advertising aspirational goals in addition to entry level, part-time interest, follow-on education and a range of supplementary FETAC type courses is a failure? C'mon!

dayshah · 29-03-2011 5:45pm

O Riain wrote: »

driving license - not related to 3rd level.
FAS computer course - not related to 3rd level.

I've yet to meet someone who has done a cert course and then move on to a degree, why not just do the degree????

I know plenty of people from WIT who went the cert->diploma->degree route.

I specifically stated why people won't just do a 4 year degree. If someone is from a background where no-one in their family even did their leaving cert, signing up for a 4 year degree is a huge commitment. Going cert-diploma-degree means they have something to show for it.

You are just displaying your own ignorance of the diversity required in an education system by ignoring the worth of Certs. Certs in things like retail management can help people get a promotion. Certs are useful for electricians. Diploma's are the required qualification in many white collar professions such as counselling.

The Cert-diploma-degree route is also useful for people who didn't like school (there are far more learning styles than an individual class can cater to) but are very interested in a specific subject. I know a few people who didn't do the leaving cert, but now have degrees in computer programming. The were interested in computers, not geography, Hamlet, or history. Why force these people spend 2 years repeating the leaving cert when they are talented in a specific area?

There are plenty of jobs that only require a cert or diploma, not everyone needs a degree.

@ jbwan

Universities don't do Certs, that is not scaremongering, its a fact. Should people in Waterford who want to do a Cert have to go to Cork or Carlow?

Also if you think WIT has the same capacity to deliver Master or PhD programmes as the universities you are deluding yourself. Maybe they could with increased funding. But PhDs are specifically research degrees, and WIT simply doesn't have the high calibre of researching lecturers you get in UCD or TCD. Its a teaching college, and for undergraduates gives better teaching than many universities. I see nothing wrong in that. Some of the most prestigious colleges in the US are Liberal Arts colleges that just do undergraduate degrees.

It makes far more sense for Waterford people to travel to do a masters or PhD than to travel to do a Cert.

Also, here is a one year cert. http://modulecatalogue.hosting.heanet.ie/catalogue/programmes/DT263/

O Riain · 29-03-2011 11:29pm

dayshah wrote: »

I know plenty of people from WIT who went the cert->diploma->degree route.

I specifically stated why people won't just do a 4 year degree. If someone is from a background where no-one in their family even did their leaving cert, signing up for a 4 year degree is a huge commitment. Going cert-diploma-degree means they have something to show for it.

You are just displaying your own ignorance of the diversity required in an education system by ignoring the worth of Certs. Certs in things like retail management can help people get a promotion. Certs are useful for electricians. Diploma's are the required qualification in many white collar professions such as counselling.

The Cert-diploma-degree route is also useful for people who didn't like school (there are far more learning styles than an individual class can cater to) but are very interested in a specific subject. I know a few people who didn't do the leaving cert, but now have degrees in computer programming. The were interested in computers, not geography, Hamlet, or history. Why force these people spend 2 years repeating the leaving cert when they are talented in a specific area?

There are plenty of jobs that only require a cert or diploma, not everyone needs a degree.

@ jbwan

Universities don't do Certs, that is not scaremongering, its a fact. Should people in Waterford who want to do a Cert have to go to Cork or Carlow?

Also if you think WIT has the same capacity to deliver Master or PhD programmes as the universities you are deluding yourself. Maybe they could with increased funding. But PhDs are specifically research degrees, and WIT simply doesn't have the high calibre of researching lecturers you get in UCD or TCD. Its a teaching college, and for undergraduates gives better teaching than many universities. I see nothing wrong in that. Some of the most prestigious colleges in the US are Liberal Arts colleges that just do undergraduate degrees.

It makes far more sense for Waterford people to travel to do a masters or PhD than to travel to do a Cert.

Also, here is a one year cert. http://modulecatalogue.hosting.heanet.ie/catalogue/programmes/DT263/

Signing up for a 4 year degree might be daunting(most courses do 3 year diploma with 4th year add on) but doing a feckin 6 year computer programmin degree is not only a waste of 2 years for the person doing it but it is an absolute lack of resources. People should by all means be encouraged to go to 3rd level. Im currently in my 2nd year, if I or ANYONE in my college were looking down the barrell of a six year course we'd drop out in a second.
People get promotions all the time in the retail sector a good friend of mine is now a manager up in Kildare village - no cert so away with that carry on.

WIT University Status - "Its a big 'no'"

Comments