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WIT University Status - "Its a big 'no'"
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Signing up for a 4 year degree might be daunting(most courses do 3 year diploma with 4th year add on) but doing a feckin 6 year computer programmin degree is not only a waste of 2 years for the person doing it but it is an absolute lack of resources. People should by all means be encouraged to go to 3rd level. Im currently in my 2nd year, if I or ANYONE in my college were looking down the barrell of a six year course we'd drop out in a second.
People get promotions all the time in the retail sector a good friend of mine is now a manager up in Kildare village - no cert so away with that carry on.
And where are you getting a 6 year degree programme from? The backdoor needn't take 6 years.
Maybe your good friend would be a better manager if he had the benefit of some training. Sure, Bill Cullen did it all by himself, but plenty of people benefit from education. If someone is doing book-keeping they wouldn't need a full degree, but would benefit from some training.
Anyway plenty of people see the value of Certs so your ignorance of their worth isn't so relevant. People take the time to do Certs and are hired on the basis of Certs, and get exemptions from course modules for having done a cert. This displays their worth.0 -
@ jbwan
Universities don't do Certs, that is not scaremongering, its a fact. Should people in Waterford who want to do a Cert have to go to Cork or Carlow?
I'm sorry to say that you are ill-informed and thus it is scaremongering. The first page of Google hits would be enough to put your mind at rest for a roughly worded search. So the point is void: I'm not suggesting that anyone goes anywhere else for any level of education but rather everything improves for everyone.Also if you think WIT has the same capacity to deliver Master or PhD programmes as the universities you are deluding yourself. Maybe they could with increased funding. But PhDs are specifically research degrees, and WIT simply doesn't have the high calibre of researching lecturers you get in UCD or TCD. Its a teaching college, and for undergraduates gives better teaching than many universities. I see nothing wrong in that. Some of the most prestigious colleges in the US are Liberal Arts colleges that just do undergraduate degrees.
Of course it doesn't at the moment because guess what... it's not a university, can't attract a huge number of post-doctoral researchers as a result and doesn't get the same level of funding as universities. You appear to be convinced that the cart should go before the horse?
You're right, there's nothing wrong with the way WIT teaches. Yet again however, the staff won't change overnight, the courses on offer won't change overnight, etc, etc. What will change is capacity, profile, and increased range of level 9 and 10 programmes. It's not a chop exercise.It makes far more sense for Waterford people to travel to do a masters or PhD than to travel to do a Cert.
No, it certainly is not. You're arguing valiantly (be it without foundation) for the rights of anyone interested in certificate level courses and yet here you are swooping down on anyone in the region who wants to go further with the same attitude that you predict will affect pursuers of certificates. Talk about pot calling the kettle black. The whole idea of a university in the Southeast is that it lessens the burden upon everyone in the region, having to travel for an education. At the moment there is a black hole and plenty of people want a university degree just for the university association that travels better outside of Ireland. At the moment there is a blackspot in the Southeast in terms of university level education - this solves it and precludes nobody.Also, here is a one year cert. http://modulecatalogue.hosting.heanet.ie/catalogue/programmes/DT263/
Well, you seem to have found the exception rather than the rule. It's a shame people will have to travel to Dublin to do that certificate as per your previous point. National Certs are nearly always 2 years, Diploma (Ord. Degree) 3 years, and Degree 4 years. Details for that course are sparse but maybe it's a follow-on for people with existing level 5 qualifications rather than school leavers or first time continuing education attendees?0 -
If I'm wrong about universities offering Certs then my fears are unfounded.
This is how I interpreted the qualification fan diagram http://www.nfq.ie/nfq/en/FanDiagram/nqai_nfq_08.html
As for who should travel Certs vs Master/PhD students. For PhD students, depending on the course, doing a PhD in Dublin needn't require moving to Dublin. Lot of WIT staff do PhDs in UK universities, but based in Waterford. So someone living in Waterford can do a PhD living in Waterford, and just take the train to see their supervisor once a fortnight. It would be ideal to have the university in the same city you live, but its not crucial for PhDs.
For masters and PhDs I would put the burden of travel on them rather than Cert students because they already know the subject and if they are good at it. Going away is not such a risk for them as for someone who might have been out of education for a few years or not even done the leaving cert. They can also expect to earn more money at the end, so one years rent for doing a masters in UCD wouldn't be as much a problem for them.
WIT does have some good quality Masters programmes. WIT has a teaching focus not a research focus.
I went to WIT and a university. The university had good researchers that were hopeless teachers. WIT generally had good teachers. They had experience (eg as accountants) and didn't need any research experience to do their job. However its totally different for PhDs.
To be able to deliver good PhD programmes WIT would need to hire a large number of new staff. I've no problem with that at all.
I just want to make sure that PhD programmes aren't traded for Certs.0 -
I just want to make sure that PhD programmes aren't traded for Certs.
I honestly don't believe that they will be.
As for WIT's research profile. It's not as bad as you make out. The TSSG is highly rated, not just nationally but right across Europe as one of the leading research institutes in telecomms and future internet research. In addition to that you have groundbreaking work in the chemical and life sciences arena, from macular degeneration right across a number of other areas - again featuring on both the national and international stage. There's a lot going on out in WIT that many people don't know about - usually because they're not involved in the area of interest and never cross paths with it. That's a PR issue that should be addressed and people should be a little prouder of what's on their doorstep.0 -
I honestly don't believe that they will be.
As for WIT's research profile. It's not as bad as you make out. The TSSG is highly rated, not just nationally but right across Europe as one of the leading research institutes in telecomms and future internet research. In addition to that you have groundbreaking work in the chemical and life sciences arena, from macular degeneration right across a number of other areas - again featuring on both the national and international stage. There's a lot going on out in WIT that many people don't know about - usually because they're not involved in the area of interest and never cross paths with it. That's a PR issue that should be addressed and people should be a little prouder of what's on their doorstep.
True. My experience is of the Business school. Excellent undergrad prog, but declines after that.
I heard they are good at some optical thing I don't understand, and Genzyme wouldn't fund research in WIT unless they thought it was good.
So basically WIT is good at the things we would expect from an IT in the international sense (eg MIT, California IT).
To be honest I don't think we'd be asking for university status only Micheal Martin made every RTC an IT, thereby putting DIT and WIT in the same category at letterkenny IT.0 -
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All of this crap about spending 4, 5 or 6 years studying is only a way of massaging the Live Register figures. What fool is gonna give a top-notch job to a student with a PhD and no knowledge of working in a real-life situation? That's the reason that the primary and secondary schools are so bad, they're full of teachers and lecturers that were employed by the Department of Education based on their qualifications, NOT on their actual experience or perceived knowledge. And don't get me started on the shower lecturing in the third level colleges...
In my opinion, graduates straight out of college should be prohibited from becoming teachers or lecturers until they have acquired a minimum level of experience, no matter if they have to travel to the ends of the earth to find work.
The old Regional Technical College system was successful because the colleges liaised with industry to identify the skill requirements of the up-and-coming workforce. A PhD in bollocks-ology is only an award that shows that the student was capable of studying something for umpteen years without been required to actually do anything.0 -
To be honest I don't think we'd be asking for university status only Micheal Martin made every RTC an IT, thereby putting DIT and WIT in the same category at letterkenny IT.
It would certainly make an interesting context for the argument and I often wonder what would have happened in the years gone by if certain RTCs had been allowed to stand apart in their newly appointed IoT positions. It would have been interesting to see how the model evolved rather than the farce that was made of it.
All the same it would be nice to see some arts come to the region too, under uni expansion. At the moment the serving is quite technical/business and would only be improved by some diversity IMHO.0 -
Guramoogah wrote: »All of this crap about spending 4, 5 or 6 years studying is only a way of massaging the Live Register figures. What fool is gonna give a top-notch job to a student with a PhD and no knowledge of working in a real-life situation? That's the reason that the primary and secondary schools are so bad, they're full of teachers and lecturers that were employed by the Department of Education based on their qualifications, NOT on their actual experience or perceived knowledge. And don't get me started on the shower lecturing in the third level colleges...
In my opinion, graduates straight out of college should be prohibited from becoming teachers or lecturers until they have acquired a minimum level of experience, no matter if they have to travel to the ends of the earth to find work.
The old Regional Technical College system was successful because the colleges liaised with industry to identify the skill requirements of the up-and-coming workforce. A PhD in bollocks-ology is only an award that shows that the student was capable of studying something for umpteen years without been required to actually do anything.
It depends on the subject. I wouldn't want to be taught marketing or accounting by someone with no experience.
However for lots of subjects the actual lab work you do in a PhD is identical to the work you would do in the 'real world'. Lots of engineering PhDs are funded by industry for this reason. In this context I don't see the difference between 4 years experience in a university/IT and 4 years in the 'real world'.
However, I do think those lecturing at 3rd level should be forced to do some teaching training.
@ jbwan
Regarding Arts subjects, they can do that and maintain the technical focus of the place. Eg rather than teaching German literature they could teach translation/interpretation into German.
Also I think WIT's Business Studies with French/German give students a lot of options in a global jobs market.0 -
Guramoogah wrote: »All of this crap about spending 4, 5 or 6 years studying is only a way of massaging the Live Register figures. What fool is gonna give a top-notch job to a student with a PhD and no knowledge of working in a real-life situation? That's the reason that the primary and secondary schools are so bad, they're full of teachers and lecturers that were employed by the Department of Education based on their qualifications, NOT on their actual experience or perceived knowledge. And don't get me started on the shower lecturing in the third level colleges...
In my opinion, graduates straight out of college should be prohibited from becoming teachers or lecturers until they have acquired a minimum level of experience, no matter if they have to travel to the ends of the earth to find work.
The old Regional Technical College system was successful because the colleges liaised with industry to identify the skill requirements of the up-and-coming workforce. A PhD in bollocks-ology is only an award that shows that the student was capable of studying something for umpteen years without been required to actually do anything.
My best lecturer in college is a young fella couldn't have much experience if any, another fella has years of experience and is head of the engineering department along with degrees and phds comin out his ear holes but he's the most useless bugger ive ever experienced, so it's not always as black and White as you say.0 -
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My best lecturer in college is a young fella couldn't have much experience if any, another fella has years of experience and is head of the engineering department along with degrees and phds comin out his ear holes but he's the most useless bugger ive ever experienced, so it's not always as black and White as you say.
Couldn't agree more.0 -
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And where are you getting a 6 year degree programme from? The backdoor needn't take 6 years.
Maybe your good friend would be a better manager if he had the benefit of some training. Sure, Bill Cullen did it all by himself, but plenty of people benefit from education. If someone is doing book-keeping they wouldn't need a full degree, but would benefit from some training.
Anyway plenty of people see the value of Certs so your ignorance of their worth isn't so relevant. People take the time to do Certs and are hired on the basis of Certs, and get exemptions from course modules for having done a cert. This displays their worth.
well it certainly takes at least 5 years to go through the back door and if you havent got your leaving cert its 6. 5 years for a degree. Insanity I dont care if your the first person in your family to go to college since we started standing on two feet.
My "good friend" possibly being a better manager is Irrelevent of what im talking about with certs. she got the job without one which completely undermines theyre worth. as in to be a manager you do not neccessarily need one therefore they are worthless. If you wanted a job in what im doin you would 200% need a degree just to be even looked at. Thats not being condescending its being factual.
If your not able for a course you will find out sooner by just doing the degree straight away then just prolonging it by doing a one year course that a monkey could pass.
If you are able for it then the one year course was a waste of your time to begin with0 -
Jesus, lot of rubbish being spouted here imho.
Firstly, an upgrade of WIT/university of south east, would bring numerous benefits beyond more Masters/PhD students. Increased funding, more autonomy for the institution -- helping it to compete, increased foreign direct investment, etc., etc. If people want to do certs, then maybe the Waterford college of further education (tech) can do them.
Also, the fact that WIT employs increasing numbers of graduates from the top universities in the country seems to be lost on those who claim WIT cannot do masters and PhDs, or those who say that WIT can only teach not research. The fact of the matter is that UCD/Trinity/etc PhDs are ten a penny in this climate and would cut off their right arm to get a job in WIT -- not to mention excellent graduates in certain areas, some winning European wide awards, graduating with PhDs from WIT itself. All these people can do research. In some areas, WIT is performing very highly, and leading the country.
WIT is a bit behind the universities, but that's where the government has always wanted it to be in the past. With an upgrade the gap will be closed quickly.
And as for the certs thing, again, they can be done elsewhere, or if not, I have a feeling 'technological universities' will continue to do certs/ordinary degrees. But to be honest, a cert isin't worth anymore than a decent leaving cert in my opinion. If there are some areas where certs are valued, fair enough, but I never heard of anyone get a pay rise or a good job based on a cert. As a route to a degree, it's just slow. For practical, hands on skills, it might still be the way to go. These could and should be retained somewhere like the WFED.0 -
Will you cop on sully!
You as a campaigner for FG in the last election, you personally lied to the constituents on behalf of Deasy and Coffey! Its fact and not twisting of words or however you like to it to been renamed!
We are lucky as constituents of Waterford to elect John Halligan and have some to stick up for us instead of these incompetent fools in FG and Lab. Imagine if Kenneally was elected ahead of John we would be left unrepresented by these 4 idiots!
Waterford has enough and has had enough of incompetent politicians and their supporters!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Paudie-Coffey-Waterford-Bye-Election/126079510772288?sk=notes#!/note.php?note_id=4210312717980 -
I would give them 18 months max0 -
CantGetNoSleep wrote: »I would give them 18 months max
Still too long...... We got suckered. Remember this:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfeyeyidcwgb/rss2/?sms_ss=yahoomail
How do you go from `not a cent more` to €24 billion??? I feel physically sick.0
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