Mmm, Ulduar... shiny...

Karl Hungus

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=39711.0

:pac:

Splinter

awesome, it looks great! cant wait

Anti

At last something challenging It gets boring completing 25man naxx, sarth and maly all in the space of a night

Dustaz

vehicles me hole

Im quite enjoying the holiday of 1 night a week raiding at the moment, so they can test it for as long as they want.

Looking forward to seeing this raids còckblock. Although by the sounds of things there may not actually be one with the achievment options on most bosses.

Karl Hungus

Dustaz wrote: »

vehicles me hole

Could be good as long as it's not like the drakes in Oculus/EoE.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Meh,

I got bored from the repetitiveness and went to another MMORPG, TBC was good, WOTLK was great but endgame is just sooo bad. It is a dissapointment tbh

Anti

The problem is endgame is now available to any bunch of players who are willing to spend a few hours a week at it. Back in TBC only the best of the best were able to fully clear everything, the rest were left constantly running Kara and the likes.

Karl Hungus

Nah, the problem is the sheer lack of variety in terms of raids. Wrath is like a town with one pub - you say to your friends, we heading to Naxxramas for pints tonight? I suppose we could go around Sarth's house for a few cans afterwards. It's not really the same though is it? Are we going to get a bottle of bucky and head to Maly's place first? Nah, he's only gone and left his keys in Naxx, I bet that thick barmaid Saph has them, she always gives me the cold shoulder.

I get where Dustaz is coming from, 1 night a week raiding is nice and casual... but fecked if I don't want to do something else every other week, and I don't mean pointless achievements either.

Can't wait until that new pub Ulduar opens up, I hear they're getting in top of the range widescreen TVs and all, we can go watch the game on sundays.

jason&arthur

Anti wrote: »

The problem is endgame is now available to any bunch of players who are willing to spend a few hours a week at it. Back in TBC only the best of the best were able to fully clear everything, the rest were left constantly running Kara and the likes.

umm there is not rly any endgame atm so... naxx10 reminds me far more of ubrs than kara. ubrs was once endgame cos of how badly gear was deisnged and how badly players understood the game, kara (nightbane:\) was once endgame cos it was hard.

naxx|sath|malyg aren't the kara|maggy|gruul of wotlk. the tbc instances were too hard for entry level raids, and blizzard didn't repeat that mistake. thats a good thing, it means they learned. was stackin limited invulnerability pots fun? **** no.
now uldar comes out and yous raiders better hope there's no kael :P

DRakE

one night.

reek of bull**** off that

DRakE

Dustaz wrote: »

vehicles me hole

Im quite enjoying the holiday of 1 night a week raiding at the moment, so they can test it for as long as they want.

Looking forward to seeing this raids còckblock. Although by the sounds of things there may not actually be one with the achievment options on most bosses.

I'LL GUN!

Karl Hungus

jason&arthur wrote: »

naxx|sath|malyg aren't the kara|maggy|gruul of wotlk. the tbc instances were too hard for entry level raids, and blizzard didn't repeat that mistake. thats a good thing, it means they learned. was stackin limited invulnerability pots fun? **** no.
now uldar comes out and yous raiders better hope there's no kael :P

Yeah, they didn't make the same mistake, they just made a different one. Instead of endgame content only the top players can see, there's no endgame content for anyone to see at all. All we have is entry level, and a promise of more to come. I really hope there's a hell of a lot more to come, at least 5 or 6 more raids.

I can't wait for Ulduar, but I think it should have been out with the initial release of the expansion. I know the idea is to have raid content that everyone can try, and I think the idea of the bosses in Ulduar having hard or easy modes satisfies both the casual, and the hardcore raiders. That's a good sign of things to come.

I am really hoping they will include a good few more raids though. I'd like to see a Scarlet Onslaught raid, there's terrific lore there, and the Scarlet Monastery instances were easily some of my favorite early level ones. One in Zul'Drak would be excellent too, both the original release, and the Burning Crusade had Troll based raids, so why not Wrath? I'd also like to see a Vrykul raid, they could easily open up another wing of Utgarde, or there's Balargarde Fortress in Icecrown.

DRakE wrote: »

one night.

reek of bull**** off that

I'd believe it easily. In my guild, we might only raid 2-3 hours a night at the weekends, but given that time frame, we'd have Naxx cleared in 2 nights with time to spare. Another more experienced guild who might have 4 or 5 hours to raid could clear Naxx and then take down Maly and Sarth with a drake or two in one night with no problems.

jason&arthur

yeah i agree it took 2 long for uldar to come out but rather that than release it early like they did with bwl / aq, closed gates in bwl and "buggy" aq lolol. i think the main reason was the release date of the expansion looming and not wantin to release unfinished content. tbc was the opposite and there were too many instances at the start and everyone got burnt out too quickly, especially with the kinda unbeatable encounter(s) that either required obscene raid stackin or consumables
and to be honest, this expansion release has been a lot better than the last. and a gap of 3 mo for new content isnt unprecedented after all

i'm content~

Anti

DRakE wrote: »

one night.

reek of bull**** off that

Naxx25 2-3 hours
Sarth 1/2d 20-30 mins. Same again for 10 man
Maly 20-30 mins. Same again for 10 man

So even with wipes and ****ups 5-6 hours max. Hardly any bull**** about that :rolleyes:

Karl Hungus

jason&arthur wrote: »

yeah i agree it took 2 long for uldar to come out but rather that than release it early like they did with bwl / aq, closed gates in bwl and "buggy" aq lolol. i think the main reason was the release date of the expansion looming and not wantin to release unfinished content. tbc was the opposite and there were too many instances at the start and everyone got burnt out too quickly, especially with the kinda unbeatable encounter(s) that either required obscene raid stackin or consumables
and to be honest, this expansion release has been a lot better than the last. and a gap of 3 mo for new content isnt unprecedented after all

Yeah but come on, the only real raid we've got in wrath now is recycled from pre-tbc. Could you really say that they couldn't have included a single, original raid, that isn't a one-boss encounter? Maybe not Ulduar, but something else?

jason&arthur wrote: »

i'm content~

Can I raid you? :pac:

Dustaz

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Yeah but come on, the only real raid we've got in wrath now is recycled from pre-tbc. Could you really say that they couldn't have included a single, original raid, that isn't a one-boss encounter? Maybe not Ulduar, but something else?

They have to release expansions at a fairly reasonable rate, Im guessing it was a business decision to release wrath with the recycled raid just to get it out there.

I dunno, it makes a nice change to be on farm for so long. Gives you a chance to get alts levelled and geared and get achievements and stuff done. If your in any way serious about raiding, you arent going to have much time for the 3 months or so after ulduar for all that stuff. 11-14 new bosses is a LOT of content, expecially when you factor in the hard mode stuff.

You gotta remember that naxx was so easy, most guilds with any prior experience didnt actually have a progress curve in it. It was just 1shot, 1shot, 2shot, 1shot, 1shot, 3shot, 1shot all the way through the bosses. Ulduar (hopefully) is not going to be like that and will be (again hopefully) go back to the way it was in ssc/tk where you spent 1-4 weeks on a single boss. I think some of the new casual raiding guilds are going to have problems with this and there might be a little more consolidation among guilds again.



Oh and Drake, we do 25 man naxx, Sarth 3D, Maly, VoA from 20-23:30. It aint rocket science:)

Karl Hungus

Dustaz wrote: »

They have to release expansions at a fairly reasonable rate, Im guessing it was a business decision to release wrath with the recycled raid just to get it out there.

Yeah that's true, but it seems like Blizzard put a lot of effort into the new PVP elements and neglected the PVE side.

Maybe it's just me showing my newcomer colours, but I only started playing in Burning Crusade, and that seemed just so much more vast. I had my foot in the door with the tiny bit of Karazhan I had done, and saw a glimpse of all the massive content that was ahead of me like Black Temple, Hyjal, Zul'Aman and so on... It was freakin' huge!

But now, it seems like I've just got my foot in the door in Naxx, and that's all there is... I really do enjoy raiding, but it's just that I'm a fairly casual raider, and there's only just enough raid content to enjoy 2 nights a week. I'm not saying I want to be raiding 4 or 5 nights a week, but that something else to do those 2 nights would be great.

I'm looking to organize some Black Temple runs with my guild, simply for variety (Ok, and to get the Bulwark as a party piece! ).

Anti

See thats what i want. I dont want to raid 1 or two nights a week i'd rather be raiding 4/5 nights a week on something thats hard.

jason&arthur

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Yeah that's true, but it seems like Blizzard put a lot of effort into the new PVP elements and neglected the PVE side.

Maybe it's just me showing my newcomer colours, but I only started playing in Burning Crusade, and that seemed just so much more vast. I had my foot in the door with the tiny bit of Karazhan I had done, and saw a glimpse of all the massive content that was ahead of me like Black Temple, Hyjal, Zul'Aman and so on... It was freakin' huge!

But now, it seems like I've just got my foot in the door in Naxx, and that's all there is... I really do enjoy raiding, but it's just that I'm a fairly casual raider, and there's only just enough raid content to enjoy 2 nights a week. I'm not saying I want to be raiding 4 or 5 nights a week, but that something else to do those 2 nights would be great.

I'm looking to organize some Black Temple runs with my guild, simply for variety (Ok, and to get the Bulwark as a party piece! ).

thats the thing, it was exactly the same in vanilla, where the only raid real was MC to begin with and only slightly different in TBC where the first real raid was SSC|TK which were really just 1 big raid. only difference is vanilla gear sucked and people didnt understand mechanics, and tbc was overtuned.
don't worry, it'll pick up

just bear in mind how it was hard enough to see the end raid content if u werent there at the start to progress through mc->bwl->aq(lol)->naxx or ssc|tk->bt|mh->swp, and i honestly dont think that will change too much. bt and mh were released a patch early imo, but thats a different tin of beans

Karl Hungus

Anti wrote: »

See thats what i want. I dont want to raid 1 or two nights a week i'd rather be raiding 4/5 nights a week on something thats hard.

Of course, I'm just saying that more content would be fantastic no matter if you put in 1 or 2 night, or 4 or 5, or even more. I think the whole 'hard mode' boss encounters in Ulduar will be great for everyone too. More casual raiders can go and experience the raid, and the more hardcore guys can enjoy the challenge of the harder modes.

It would be interesting if there was something extra other than loot for raiders doing these harder boss encounters, an extra boss or two like the timed CoS run.

jason&arthur wrote: »

thats the thing, it was exactly the same in vanilla, where the only raid real was MC to begin with and only slightly different in TBC where the first real raid was SSC|TK which were really just 1 big raid. only difference is vanilla gear sucked and people didnt understand mechanics, and tbc was overtuned.
don't worry, it'll pick up

just bear in mind how it was hard enough to see the end raid content if u werent there at the start to progress through mc->bwl->aq(lol)->naxx or ssc|tk->bt|mh->swp, and i honestly dont think that will change too much. bt and mh were released a patch early imo, but thats a different tin of beans

I think you mistake my point there, I'm just saying what it first felt like for me when I got to 70, how there was this huge raid content that was all ahead of me. I know a lot of Burning Crusade raids were added after the initial release, Zul'Aman, Sunwell. So hopefully further down the line, we'll have a lot more.

jason&arthur

ah ok

personally, i'm impressed by the complete lack of bugs and difficulty balancing they managed. apart from a few odd ones like gotta go! everything was almost perfectly tuned, obviously more $$$ in QC this time round :P

Ivan

Personally I think it's amusing the amount of people who complain about lack of content in WotLK and yet if you ask them, the majority of those same players have not completed Sarth 10 + 3 drakes. Which is essentially the end of WotLK raiding.

And hell, by the end of TBC pugs were doing BT/MH and SWP.
In vanilla you had a 40 man guild or you spent your time farming for your Quel'Sarrar or epic quest chain which took you endless hours farming the same instances over and over again. People complained that raiding content wasnt accessible enough. So Blizzard made raids 25 man and scaled back the difficulty somewhat.

In TBC people complained that epics were too hard to get and end game raiding was still only accessible to the elite hardcore.

So Blizzard made Badges provide better loot and reduced attunements for well... everything. Giving badges out hand over fist for raids.

Now at WotLK we see the evolution of all of these changes and people still arent happy.

People want to be able to take part in end-game content, irregardless of what their level of skill/gear is but at the same time, they want there to be a challenge in taking part in these very same raids.

Now Blizzard will introduce some interesting raids with a difficult mode for skilled guilds or those that have geared up and normal mode for the noobs or while learning the content. But I highly doubt people will be happy, even with these concessions.

I miss the days of farming for hours for reagents for the billion pots/flasks you'd need for a single raid. The retards you'd have to deal with because you needed them to make up your 40 man raid or you just didnt get to raid. I miss the fact that you either raided or waited around until you raided next because there was no gear upgrades outside of raiding.

Oh wait, no I dont.

Karl Hungus

Ivan wrote: »

Personally I think it's amusing the amount of people who complain about lack of content in WotLK and yet if you ask them, the majority of those same players have not completed Sarth 10 + 3 drakes. Which is essentially the end of WotLK raiding.

That's a cop-out though Ivan, and one I've heard constantly spouted over on wowhead, it's a tired excuse. Whether it's Sartharion 10 or 25 man, with 2 or 3 drakes, it's still the same content. It's certainly more of a challenge, but that doesn't equate to a whole other raid instance with a different set of bosses and encounters. If the whole thing about not completing Sarth + 3 continues, very soon we'll see people saying that you can't complain about the lack of content unless you've tanked all of the current content with a fish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYDbzhW0SYw

I don't know about anyone else, but I want to tank it all with a fish.

Ivan

No its not a whole other set of content, but it is part of the current content. And you cant say that you've cleared the current content until... well, you have...

It's like getting to Archimonde or Illidan or Sargeras and stopping because you cant kill them... then spouting to all that will listen that you are so bored because you've finished the content.

This is the way that Blizzard have operated and I think we're all the better for it. Why rush out content when you can take your time and do it right. Honestly, there are maybe 20-30% of guilds atm that have finished the "content" and that have a right to complain. The standard fare for the masses is easy. Hell, maybe even too easy, but the harder stuff is so hard that people are just ignoring it.

You say it's a copout to say that Sarth3d is the end of the content, I say it's a copout to say otherwise.

And yes, I too wish to experience WoW content with a fish weapon. Just so I can say "I'm finally finished"

Karl Hungus

Ivan wrote: »

You say it's a copout to say that Sarth3d is the end of the content

That's not what I said at all though, nowhere near it. I don't exactly disagree with you that this is the endgame of current content, what I do disagree with is this elitist sense of "We've done this, you haven't, therefor your opinion doesn't matter." That's what the cop-out is, it's a way of brushing off someone else's opinion.

Now, I like the mechanics of the Sarth fight, I think it's great that you can pretty much go at it at in different ways depending on how much of a challenge your guild is up to. As blizzard say, there's going to be similar difficulty modes with bosses in Ulduar, and that's a great way to go about things for future raids. It gives the raid experience to all those casual players, and offers more challenges for more experienced guilds. It's offering the same content to both sets of players.

As you say yourself, it's a small percentage of guilds who've cleared Sarth+3, well I think there's a lot who probably never will. Likewise, there's probably going to be a lot of people who aren't going to clear all the bosses on Ulduar on the hard difficulty, but would still like to see more raids and more content that they can play and enjoy. And I don't think you need to be able to clear all content on the game in order to have an opinion on it, after all, would you need to finish every single quest in vanilla WoW before being allowed an opinion on an expansion?

Nehaxak

I haven't completed it all yet and I'm already bored, also the gear seems pretty much pointless and very little if anything of an upgrade to drops got from heroics or quests. My blue chest I have on for example, more or less the exact same stats as the T7 chest, so rather than waste emblems on getting the T7 chest, I bought the BoA staff for my 44 warlock

The rewards from the raiding just seem fairly, well, lacklustre and barely worth bothering to raid for.

Sure I wouldn't mind a decent 2 handed weapon and the SoA sigil but... I resubbed to EQII last night and will fart about a bit in it until the next wow patch comes out.

This new Ulduar raid centered around stupid stupid stupid vehicle crap, they can shove that one up their arse as well.

smellslikeshoes

DRakE wrote: »

one night.

reek of bull**** off that

Reek of jealousy off that.


I really hope Ulduar is tough from the outset, right now there isn't much to be had being in a hardcore guild that you can't get from being in a casual guild. Even though 3 drakes is a nice encounter it doesn't really set you apart much gearwise.

If for no other reason it might keep some of the people out of Ulduar who have made Naxx /1 like barrens chat

Dustaz

I think Ivan and Karl are both right in a way. A lot of less hardcore guilds dont give a monkeys about 3d sarth and stuff like that, so as soon as they have nax on farm and maly down theyre left thinking theres not a lot else to do.

Well, You really do have blizzard to thank for that. They have constantly dumbed down the end game to the point that now even casual players feel like nihilum did after clearling sunwell! While i agree with Ivan that its waaaaaay better than it was with 40 man raids and consumables farming, i think theyve gone way too far in making stuff accessible. No attunements, Tier stuff available for badges, epics dropping like candy everywhere etc etc.

As Ivan said, This is very like vanilla where there was only 2 raids for a loooong time (remember the forum whine before BWL was released?)

If for no other reason it might keep some of the people out of Ulduar who have made Naxx /1 like barrens chat

Sorry to disappoint, but since Attunements are a big no no, it means that Ulduar will fall victim to the swarm also
I really dont know what the big deal with attunements is. God forbid people have to actually do something before they can walk into a raid instance and get free epics. I quite liked getting the attunments (and the titles that came with it) in tbc and it wasnt that hard to just remove them once the next tier came in.

jason&arthur

on the subject of atunements: the onyxia/bt/tk quest chains was so awesome im really disapointed they didn't add something similar but then again, the mh/naxx40 atunements were awful and unimaginative so i wouldnt want to see something similar back...

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

jason&arthur wrote: »

umm there is not rly any endgame atm so... naxx10 reminds me far more of ubrs than kara. ubrs was once endgame cos of how badly gear was deisnged and how badly players understood the game, kara (nightbane:\) was once endgame cos it was hard.

naxx|sath|malyg aren't the kara|maggy|gruul of wotlk. the tbc instances were too hard for entry level raids, and blizzard didn't repeat that mistake. thats a good thing, it means they learned. was stackin limited invulnerability pots fun? **** no.
now uldar comes out and yous raiders better hope there's no kael :P

Unfortunately you do not know the problem, do you fall in to the group of players that play a few hours a week with full T7?

TBC had it right, the origional lvl 60 endgame had it right also. Lots of differant instances, lots of tier items. Now we have one tier item. It is a joke. Blizzard noted that people left the game due to the fact that they could not play 5-6 hours per week, casual players, but they wanted end game too. Unfortunately there are a lot of these players, by allowing everybody access to end game content, more people signed up and blizz got more subscriptions. Unfortunately, hardcore players like myself got screwed, as we have absolutely nothing to do. Everything is cleared, have a lot of the gear, the game is too easy and is nothing of a challenge. They made a mess of it in my opinion...

Anti

I completely agree with atunement tbh, i do like the way maly is off limits to the nabs who cant complete naxx10/10(but they can just pug the one person that has the key ). I personally would love to see some kind of atunement brought in for ulduar. I liked the fact that in tbc when i started out i couldnt just prance into Bt/SWP like every nab can in wotlk, i understand everon wants to see endgame content, but not everyone is cut out for it imho.

And as for /general in naxx i completely agree, infact its /leave general as soon as i hit naxx and i often wonder why im walking around dalaran getting nothing but trade spam...