Mmm, Ulduar... shiny...

smellslikeshoes

Dustaz wrote: »

Sorry to disappoint, but since Attunements are a big no no, it means that Ulduar will fall victim to the swarm also
I really dont know what the big deal with attunements is. God forbid people have to actually do something before they can walk into a raid instance and get free epics. I quite liked getting the attunments (and the titles that came with it) in tbc and it wasnt that hard to just remove them once the next tier came in.

Yea thats why I'm hopeing it will be hard from the outset, if there is a nice idiot check boss early it will be tough enough to keep some of the the riff raff out :pac:

To be honest I really disliked the whole attunement thing, even for Kara it was pretty irritating, if someone has the skill and the gear to keep up in an instance I don't see why they shouldn't be able to go in. I'd rather the actual instance be tough instead of the process of getting the key.

slyph

With millions playing, blizzard can't please everybody.

TheDoc

Alot of people were getting their panties in a twist over the end game content.

It was well documented and publicised that the end game content released with the game would be essentially preperation. Giving everyone time to get raid experience, and get gear, and get familiar with gear and whats for what, in preperation for the seriusly tougher instance and raids arriving.

One of the main complaints with TBC and original wow, was that it took too much time for people, casual players, to reach endgame, and have enough of a chance to feel part of the end game scene.

This was addressed by the easier acquisition of epic gear in tbc, and followed by the much easier end game content in wotlk.

But its ment to be for that reason, easier for casual players, and semi hardcore, to get into the thick of it.

Like how many instances came out before Illidan was finally encountered?

It wouldnt suprise me to see atleast 3-4 more end game raids, in 10 man and 25 man variants, before we go up to Arthas.

Ivan

Ok, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your meaning Karl. But I guess thats what you get for quoting the central theme to my post and then adding your reply instead of replying to bits at a time.

But yes, saying people cant comment (although thats not quite what I said) about end game content when they havent experienced all of the end game content is elitist. Just like it was elitist to say the same in MC, BWL, Naxx40, BT and SWP.

But you cant have it both ways, because, lets face it. Everrybody is a noobish scrub raider to somebody. 3% of WoW players experienced BT when it was end game content. If you werent part of that, then you were a noob raider and some of the people that Blizzard has appeased with the Wrath raiding balance.

As for whoever said that vanilla wow was better; it was exactly the same. MC was out for ages on its own with just 1 tier of gear and 9 bosses. It required an irritating attunement (albeit not that hard by comparison to some but still). But there was weeks without any content to raid for the end game guilds while we waited for BWL and then the process started all over. I remember speaking to some friends in work who were still working on MC when we had 8 bosses down in Naxx and we were still miles behind the pros.

Ultimately, the only real difference between WotLK content and everything else, is the difficulty and length of the initial raids. It's more noob friendly, of that you can be sure, but thats all it is. The very, very end, is still just as challenging and engaging as anything else we've seen before.

Karl Hungus

Ivan wrote: »

But you cant have it both ways.

I think that's exactly what the hard modes for certain encounters are though.

Ivan

But you'll have exactly the same situations you have now. People will clear all of Ulduar, ignoring the 11/14 hard mode version of bosses and then turn around and say that they have finished the content. Thats what I meant

Maybe they'll clear one or more of the hard modes, undoubtedly some will be cheesed by certain class combinations but I think the point will still stand.

jason&arthur

anyone who actually played vanilla knows that it is so so so much better now :P

sure there are things u miss, server community, world pvp, but there was so much **** too. blues from diremaul being best in slot till 40 man raid #2. teir 2 helms being passed in favor of crimson felt hat... and thats just the gear. 4 hours trash alone in molten core for an average guild. 40 man raids, where maybe 15 of the people in the raid would be on par with your average hc pug skill wise. and then hardcore raiding came about, and u needed to farm a re-tar-ded amount of consumables just to raid. loatheb alone broke my bank on shadow protection pots. no dailys for farming, just tyrs hand where ur gonna get shat on by rogues who are actually overpowered in pvp (in the true sense of the word, not what gets thrown around the forums today :P blind on prep anyone)

i'm gonna be a hypocrite and say i enjoyed the game a lot more back then :P but thats just nostalgia talking, it certainly wasn't a better game.

oh and ivan sorry to nitpick but when mc was out on its own it had 2 teirs of gear. both t1 and t2 dropped there, not just legs i mean full set bar helm i remeber getting dragonstalker belt from magmadar as my first epic

Ivan wrote:

As for whoever said that vanilla wow was better; it was exactly the same. MC was out for ages on its own with just 1 tier of gear and 9 bosses. It required an irritating attunement (albeit not that hard by comparison to some but still). But there was weeks without any content to raid for the end game guilds while we waited for BWL and then the process started all over. I remember speaking to some friends in work who were still working on MC when we had 8 bosses down in Naxx and we were still miles behind the pros.

Ivan

With 9 bosses and 8 pieces in the tiered set, I dont know how that can be true. I've checked with some friends and they've backed me up. I cant be 100% since it was so long ago... but I'm fairly confident that you are mistaken.

Funky

T2 dropped from MC and Onyxia(not just heads, not sure what but I remember Boots of Transcendence definitely did) before they were properly itemised. But the stats on the items weren't finished yet or anything and they changed the loot tables pretty quickly.

ZorbaTehZ

Yup they did, got changed in this patch.

Ivan

Ah, fair enough, I stand corrected.

Although, for what its worth, I believe it was a bug. Since it meant that it was impossible to complete the T1 set

sunzz

Sorry to drag up and old thread been away for a while, dont like saying it but i totally agree with ivan, also I agree with lee as well but i dont mind saying that, as much.

Its retarded people moaning that they've cleared end game content and have not even done sarth2d never mind 3d, which lets face it to ANY competent guild with decent naxx25 gear its not that hard of a fight.

People will clear the 14 bosses in ul and moan about content being done when they fail at hard mode, I would liked to have seen attunments needed for ul, but meh I suppose every scrub in there with their weekly farmed valor badge heroics will no doubt be shouting LOLZ EZ MODE when downing bosses,

Sigh, you're a noob unless you have your shiney twighlight drake mmhhhmmmmmmmm shiney

Ivan

Why dont you like agreeing with me?
I thought we'd gotten past all that and you'd accepted your future as a frost dk?

Nehaxak

Awful lot of elitism in this thread O.o
It's what I hate about wow and what MOST players hate about the old raids, stupid attunements that take forever to do and honestly are just boring and a complete waste of time.
I would've given up wow if they'd continued that crap from TBC. Wasn't so bad before TBC, at least the attunments were enjoyable for Ony and MC but after that it just became tedious.

I enjoy the raids, but I think the gear is pretty crap for the effort and time you have to put in to it and not much of a step up from what you get from Heroics or badges/emblems/whatever.

Great for some as students, no job, no life, no family, no gf/bf, whatever, who can spend all their time in wow and go on about how easy it is for everyone else to enjoy the raiding, how you're no longer that virtually amazing person anymore, pity for you... :rolleyes:

For all the subscription costs and all the development that's gone in to Wow, I'm glad there are tons more people now actually enjoying it and getting to see that content rather than the few tiny overall percent of players it was before wrath.

Most players only got to see end game content on non official servers before wrath came out so for one thing, it can go some way to stopping that also.

You can keep your "scrub" comments to the official wow "swe?" kiddie forums as well, I don't want to come on here and read that nolifer crap.

Ivan

Nehaxak wrote: »

Awful lot of elitism in this thread O.o
It's what I hate about wow and what MOST players hate about the old raids, stupid attunements that take forever to do and honestly are just boring and a complete waste of time.
I would've given up wow if they'd continued that crap from TBC. Wasn't so bad before TBC, at least the attunments were enjoyable for Ony and MC but after that it just became tedious.

I enjoy the raids, but I think the gear is pretty crap for the effort and time you have to put in to it and not much of a step up from what you get from Heroics or badges/emblems/whatever.

Great for some as students, no job, no life, no family, no gf/bf, whatever, who can spend all their time in wow and go on about how easy it is for everyone else to enjoy the raiding, how you're no longer that virtually amazing person anymore, pity for you... :rolleyes:

For all the subscription costs and all the development that's gone in to Wow, I'm glad there are tons more people now actually enjoying it and getting to see that content rather than the few tiny overall percent of players it was before wrath.

Most players only got to see end game content on non official servers before wrath came out so for one thing, it can go some way to stopping that also.

You can keep your "scrub" comments to the official wow "swe?" kiddie forums as well, I don't want to come on here and read that nolifer crap.

Err, if this is directed at me, I've never cleared 10 man sarth 3d, but I believe that anyone who has, has earned the right to be elitist. For the longest time the game was elitist, balancing content based on the 3% who got to clear it because, well, they were all that got to see it. The game has become less so, and I think to the detriment of itself. Now everybody thinks they are elite because they have killed all the content but not on the hard difficulty. And it has just turned the really bad players into these know-it-alls who believe they know how the game works and how it should be run.

And before you say it, yes, I am one of those people
I do have the added advantage of being generally right, or at least being wise/experienced enough to know when to shut my mouth because I havent a clue about the subject at hand. So generally when you see me talking about something, it's because I, at least in my own opinion, have a pretty good idea of what I am talking about. If that makes me elitist, then by all means, where do I sign for my ELITE[TM] card?

WellyJ

Nehaxak wrote: »

Great for some as students, no job, no life, no family, no gf/bf, whatever, who can spend all their time in wow and go on about how easy it is for everyone else to enjoy the raiding, how you're no longer that virtually amazing person anymore, pity for you... :rolleyes:

Hmm...

Job... check

Girlfriend.... check

Life... check

Twilight Vanquisher.... check

Your scenario doesnt apply to everyone, don't be so quick to generalise an awful lot of people with nothing to back it up.

Karl Hungus

Veering a little bit back towards the original point of the thread... PATCH NOTES!!!

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=40602.0

Karl Hungus

This is pretty staggering:

Glyph of Shield Wall (Class: Warrior) -- Reduces the cooldown on Shield Wall by 3 min, but Shield Wall now only reduces damage taken by 40%.

This + improved disciplines = 1 minute shield wall cooldown. :eek:

Splinter

disc priests are looking pretty fantastic! as as the tailoring items... and finally... a buffed shadowfiend! hooray for my shadowpuppy

WellyJ

splinter wrote: »

disc priests are looking pretty fantastic! as as the tailoring items... and finally... a buffed shadowfiend! hooray for my shadowpuppy

If those belts and boots are the only tailoring buffs i'm dropping tailoring for JC very soon.

BoE again..... whats the point of tailoring, it's a joke. The only plus is the mage carpet, the cloak enchants are just about on par with avaialable enchants...

Anti

Karl Hungus wrote: »

This is pretty staggering:



This + improved disciplines = 1 minute shield wall cooldown. :eek:

I cant even remember the last time i used shield wall

Nehaxak

Ivan wrote: »

Err, if this is directed at me

It wasn't, it was in general directed at the elitism from those of you that seemed to express it. I'd rather not single out people but if you have to ask, Sunzz was the person my reply was mostly directed toward.

I've never cleared 10 man sarth 3d, but I believe that anyone who has, has earned the right to be elitist.

I disagree, it's being pug'ed in my server and the only reason I've not gone on one of those pug's is because I'm too busy with the guild and would prefer to save that moment of Sarth 3d for doing it with the guild. Again though, all being pug'ed, no great achievement at all really.
I'm happy enough now that we can do full 25 man Naxx guild run clears at the weekends and don't need to pull randoms in anymore and we're booting people that afk or disconnect all the time so getting rid of slackers along with it to speed up the raids. When we're ready, we'll get around to doing Sarth 3d, 10 & 25.

For the longest time the game was elitist, balancing content based on the 3% who got to clear it because, well, they were all that got to see it. The game has become less so, and I think to the detriment of itself. Now everybody thinks they are elite because they have killed all the content but not on the hard difficulty. And it has just turned the really bad players into these know-it-alls who believe they know how the game works and how it should be run.

Well, I don't see why I and the 97% of the other players should have to pay our subscription so that other elite 3% get to enjoy it all because they have the time to put into the game. I'm glad now the content is more easily available to EVERYONE rather than just that select few.

sunzz

Oh dear god hold up there a moment skipper.

originally posted by nehaxak
I disagree, it's being pug'ed in my server and the only reason I've not gone on one of those pug's is because I'm too busy with the guild and would prefer to save that moment of Sarth 3d for doing it with the guild

So you're telling me that an encounter that I'd say 1% of the wow population (Maybe lower)10 man 3drakes is being pugged on your server.

Yes ivan the futures bright, the future is NOT frost :d

we're getting some buffs next patch, oh dear its not even funny

Drakar

There's an important difference between people on /general looking for members for a Sarth 3d pug, and the pug actually forming and succeeding. I'd imagine this might be the important distinction here.

WellyJ

Nehaxak wrote: »

I disagree, it's being pug'ed in my server and the only reason I've not gone on one of those pug's is because I'm too busy with the guild and would prefer to save that moment of Sarth 3d for doing it with the guild. Again though, all being pug'ed, no great achievement at all really.

Sure it is

Anti

Pug Sarth3d... if thats true im transfering to your realm

Well we just spent the last 4 hours giving it a go and failed each time, gave up and just did it 1d as people were just pissing each other off over vent, petty insults etc etc. I guess havign 2 hunters with us was a bad idea as their aoe is just horrible these days.

Ivan

sunzz wrote: »

Oh dear god hold up there a moment skipper.



So you're telling me that an encounter that I'd say 1% of the wow population (Maybe lower)10 man 3drakes is being pugged on your server.

Yes ivan the futures bright, the future is NOT frost :d

we're getting some buffs next patch, oh dear its not even funny

The best spec I've seen so far come 3.1 is:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=23050015030000000000000000003242500135020310030105101300230002000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9614

Also I just want to reassure people that I plan to split this thread when I get a few moments spare time to get it done... This thread, as many on these here forms tend to do, seems to have split into two seperate, but equally interesting topics.

On an on-topic-off-topic note, I find pugging sarth 3d 10 man to be quite questionable also, although I have heard of 25 man being pugged.

Nehaxak

Look, anyone and I mean anyone that calls another player a "scrub" has serious real life problems and I'd guess totally fails at life in general. If that kind of crap is going to continue on here from the kiddie wow forums then really, I can't be arsed even bothering to read this wow forum on here anymore. I *HATE* people that put other players down because of their gear or because they think they're this oh so amazing player with virtual itamz ! Like really, gtfo and get a life ffs ! :rolleyes:

As for the pug'ing 10 man s3d, far as I'm aware from the chat on trade and in the guild, a lot of the pugs are doing it with 3 DK tanks on the drakes, 2 dedicated druid healer between them. Rest I haven't a clue about but there was a pug that did it again tonight and blabbering about it in trade again and talking tactics for ages with others who wanted to know. Can't say our server is better than any other but I would say the quality of pug's is the best I've seen on any server I've ever been on (Horde side anyway).

sunzz

originally posted by LOLZZZ
As for the pug'ing 10 man s3d, far as I'm aware from the chat on trade and in the guild, a lot of the pugs are doing it with 3 DK tanks on the drakes, 2 dedicated druid healer between them. Rest I haven't a clue about but there was a pug that did it again tonight and blabbering about it in trade again and talking tactics for ages with others who wanted to know. Can't say our server is better than any other but I would say the quality of pug's is the best I've seen on any server I've ever been on (Horde side anyway).

You need to stop digging.

Ivan, nah. If and its not going to happen the changes on the PTR actually go live then you will see ALOT of unholy dks (be it with the 21 points in blood or the stupidly OP Shadowfrost variant. )the damage multipliers for SS now are just stupidly OP. They can't let them go live.

http://www.arenajunkies.com/showthread.php?t=66011

Dustaz

Nehaxak wrote: »

Awful lot of elitism in this thread O.o

And more than a fair bit of nonsense too

I enjoy the raids, but I think the gear is pretty crap for the effort and time you have to put in to it and not much of a step up from what you get from Heroics or badges/emblems/whatever.

The REASON the gear isnt much of an upgrade is because "scrubs"(ill get to that later) whined and created a river of tears something along the lines of:

Great for some as students, no job, no life, no family, no gf/bf, whatever, who can spend all their time in wow and go on about how easy it is for everyone else to enjoy the raiding, how you're no longer that virtually amazing person anymore, pity for you... :rolleyes:

Make up your mind here. Either you want better gear for time invested and risk/reward or you dont.

As to the rest of your nonsense, I like to raid. I spend the my time in wow raiding. Im happy to spend 4 or 5 nights a week raiding. I enjoy the encounters and the achievements and the pleasure of beating a fight that youve worked on. I also enjoy getting new items. I dont see why i should get the same items for much more work as 'scrubs' (again, later) get for running 3 heroics a week.

During my wow career, i have been in a few different guilds but any time i have wanted to raid, i made sure i applied to guilds that concentrated on raiding. If you want to play with friends and do 10 mans, great. Dont assume that gives you the right to the server firsts though. We didnt get any server firsts for the first tier of raids. I dont begrudge the people who did at all. They worked for them. They raided 7 days. They raided at odd hours. Fair play to them, they have the titles to show for it now. Since then, Weve done pretty much everything including 10 man sarth3d, undying. maly timed. We worked at it and have the enchant/consumable/JC bills and repair costs to show for it. Does this amount of investment not warrant more reward than the 3 heroic-a-week heros? (Of course it does give more reward in that i get the achievement points and titles and better gear, which as you say isnt actually that much better)

Oh btw, I have a life and a very good job. Alas, No gf at the moment so feel free to work on that angle.

On to the use of the word scrubs. It tends to get bandied about a lot and a few weeks ago i might have agreed with you but ill give you an example. I specced my warrior alt prot to level just for the jazz of it and because its quite good. All during the levelling process i join groups such as: DK, Warrior, FERAL druid - NEED TANK (im not kidding). Druid, ret, spriest, shaman - NEED HEALER (again, not kidding). Bear in mind that these are normal instances. These people are scrubs. Their character is capable of performing a task yet they dont do it. As an example, my lvl 75 shadow priest has pretty much got those levels by healing instances (including old kingdom and gundrak)

Anyway my warrior dinged 80 the other day and i spent the last few days doing normal (not heroic) instances to get my gear up to spec for heroics as well as spending a lot of gold and a lot of my mains badges, heroic and valor, on getting him geared up for heroics. Defense cap gear, enchants, blue gems etc. So im cool to start tanking heroics. The first heroic i join, two of the party dont have tabards. At 80. In a heroic. Believe me, they werent exalted with everyone. I doubt they were exalted with anyone. These guys are scrubs. Do they expect the same epic gear from badges as i get from raiding?

Let me ask you a question. Do you expect to sign on the dole and recieve a ferrari? Or do you expect to get a good job and work hard and buy a ferrari from your own hard earned money?

I would've given up wow if they'd continued that crap from TBC. Wasn't so bad before TBC, at least the attunments were enjoyable for Ony and MC but after that it just became tedious.

So you dont mind attunements, as long as they arent hard? I have to agree, i thought the attunements for SSC/TK and BT werent the best. BT was particularly hard on newer players and alts. They are needed imo though. It keeps the lag down in raids if <Casts From Spellbook> arent failing the trash before Anub. Sorry to sound elitist but there it is.

Re: the pug sarth thing. I'm know its possible, in fact the server first 10 man sarth 3d on our server was a "pug" comprised of players from 2 guilds that had done it 25 man. The fact is , most capable players with the right gear are locked to it with their guilds and therefore the vast majority of players in pugs are the aformentioned players who will have trouble in beating the encounter. Im sure people DO pug it, but my guess is that the success rate isnt massive.