Mmm, Ulduar... shiny...

sunzz

Lee I think you're description of a pug is diff to his, People LFGS etc
I don't doubt its possible if there is a mixture of players from top guilds who have the right setup and have done it on 25man.

Have you got "The Immortal" It just seems so annoying, I mean we didn't have one wipe the whole way through the 4wings then we get a dc on sapph

It just seems like you have to have that PERFECT run. No dc's nothing can go wrong. Oh well suppose theres always next reset.

copeyhagen

Dustaz wrote: »

Oh btw, I have a life and a very good job. Alas, No gf at the moment so feel free to work on that angle.

not slagging you so dont take this personally but im pretty sure if you did have a gf you wouldnt be raiding so much!!!



who needs em anyways!!!

jason&arthur

payin 10000g on outland for the gnome head mount pst

Ivan

copeyhagen wrote: »

not slagging you so dont take this personally but im pretty sure if you did have a gf you wouldnt be raiding so much!!!



who needs em anyways!!!

I'm not slagging you so dont take this personally but, but I think thats stating the obvious

And well said Dustaz, although dont confuse pug for a "coalition of guilds".

Nehaxak

Well at least you had the ability to give a reply with some thought put into it so I'll reply in turn.

Dustaz wrote: »

The REASON the gear isnt much of an upgrade is because "scrubs"(ill get to that later) whined and created a river of tears something along the lines of:
Make up your mind here. Either you want better gear for time invested and risk/reward or you dont.

Nope. Like I said, why the fck should 97% of wow's playerbase fund development that only the 3% get to play.
Not fair and I'm glad it's been changed.

You can use Recount to weed the slackers out, regardless of the gear they have or the skill they said they have.

I like to raid. I spend the my time in wow raiding.

As do I.

Im happy to spend 4 or 5 nights a week raiding.

As am I, actually I've been spending more like every night raiding this last couple of weeks to help gear up others but mostly just because I enjoy it.

I enjoy the encounters and the achievements and the pleasure of beating a fight that youve worked on.

I think the achievements are childish, pokemon gotta catch em all type of kiddie thing, silly and pointless.
I agree with your other two points.

I also enjoy getting new items. I dont see why i should get the same items for much more work as 'scrubs' (again, later) get for running 3 heroics a week.

While I might agree with some of what you've said, I also disagree with other points. Mostly because on my own server at least, there's an awful lot more pugs running raids than there are heroics, so they put as much effort into it as others do.

During my wow career, i have been in a few different guilds but any time i have wanted to raid, i made sure i applied to guilds that concentrated on raiding. If you want to play with friends and do 10 mans, great.

I enjoy the social aspect of a guild rather than just raiding and I enjoy playing with players from the rest of Europe and chatting with them in vent. I don't particularly enjoy 10 mans as it's not that much of a challenge but it has to be done to gear up.

Since then, Weve done pretty much everything including 10 man sarth3d, undying. maly timed. We worked at it and have the enchant/consumable/JC bills and repair costs to show for it. Does this amount of investment not warrant more reward than the 3 heroic-a-week heros? (Of course it does give more reward in that i get the achievement points and titles and better gear, which as you say isnt actually that much better)

Achievement points are for kids, which is fine if you are, I'm only presuming you're an adult, if you're not I apologise.
Yes I would think the effort of raiding requires better gear, at the moment I feel it doesn't give that.

Oh btw, I have a life and a very good job. Alas, No gf at the moment so feel free to work on that angle.

I'm not here to make fun of people nor does it give me any pleasure either. To generalise all other players who are not up to your "gear" standards though can be turned right back on you and it pointed out equally as a generalisation that you only have such amazing gear because you have no life, gf, job, whatever...

On to the use of the word scrubs. It tends to get bandied about a lot and a few weeks ago i might have agreed with you but ill give you an example. I specced my warrior alt prot to level just for the jazz of it and because its quite good. All during the levelling process i join groups such as: DK, Warrior, FERAL druid - NEED TANK (im not kidding). Druid, ret, spriest, shaman - NEED HEALER (again, not kidding). Bear in mind that these are normal instances. These people are scrubs. Their character is capable of performing a task yet they dont do it. As an example, my lvl 75 shadow priest has pretty much got those levels by healing instances (including old kingdom and gundrak)

What you've explained there now are people who lack skill, are slackers and if they were well geared they probably just bought their account on ebay.

A person called a "scrub" to me, the way I've understood it used, was someone who is not geared the best they could be because they don't raid 5+ days a week - or worse, someone (like MOST of the wow playerbase) who cannot be arsed playing the Arena "pvp", maybe only a couple of games a week even.

That's elitism, just because you can raid that amount of time and you can beat all the bosses - anyone else who can't is a scrub (again, a term used to position yourself on a higher virtual ground because your real life sucks balls).

I think it says more of those that consider themselves elitist that these "scrubs" are now getting geared as good or better than them and in some cases doing it quicker, not because the instances are any easier but because the stupid fcking life draining, mind numbingly long and boring attunements have more or less gone from the game and it pisses them off that they wasted part of their life away and now anyone can raid if they're skilled enough and have the ability. Again, Boo hoo, QQ and all that !

The first heroic i join, two of the party dont have tabards. At 80. In a heroic. Believe me, they werent exalted with everyone. I doubt they were exalted with anyone. These guys are scrubs. Do they expect the same epic gear from badges as i get from raiding?

What ? OMFG they didn't have tabards... :rolleyes:

Let me ask you a question. Do you expect to sign on the dole and recieve a ferrari? Or do you expect to get a good job and work hard and buy a ferrari from your own hard earned money?

I'd have a lot more I'd like to buy than a Ferrari if I had the money to be honest. I would expect though that if you bought your Ferrari for 250,000 and a year later they dropped the price to 30,000 so more would buy them and I got mine, that I could drive it down the street alongside yours without being called a "scrub".

So you dont mind attunements, as long as they arent hard? I have to agree, i thought the attunements for SSC/TK and BT werent the best. BT was particularly hard on newer players and alts.

Not hard, hard I can deal with, it's the whole pointlessness of them and they were only ever there to maintain that status quo. As more people complained about having to do these stupid attunements just so that they could raid and actually see the content they paid for, business sense kicked in and said "oh yeah, that's kind of shítty that only 3% of our playerbase actually sees the content we've worked hard at creating, lets get rid of these stupid attunments".

They are needed imo though. It keeps the lag down in raids if <Casts From Spellbook> arent failing the trash before Anub. Sorry to sound elitist but there it is.

No, that's to do with blizzard not having and spending enough on the infrastructure to deal with the increased playerbase now in that content.
Their fault, not the players'. Spend some more of those billions they've got from subscriptions on improving the infrastructure and the problem will more or less be solved.

Re: the pug sarth thing. I'm know its possible, in fact the server first 10 man sarth 3d on our server was a "pug" comprised of players from 2 guilds that had done it 25 man. The fact is , most capable players with the right gear are locked to it with their guilds and therefore the vast majority of players in pugs are the aformentioned players who will have trouble in beating the encounter. Im sure people DO pug it, but my guess is that the success rate isnt massive.

I'm sure the success rate isn't massive either but I still don't think it's this almighty achivement that others are making it out to be either.

Ivan

We were having a perfectly fine debate before you came in here and had a nerd rage about our usuage of the word scrub, so dont tell us you wont reply to anybody else but dustaz because we didnt "put any thought into our replies". Thats just plain elitism

Furthermore, how can you decry our usuage of the word scrub when you dont even understand the context of what we mean? Again, see my first point.

Then you simultaneously comment about how you enjoy raiding and raid at every available oppurtunity while having previously accused the rest of us of having no life, no job etc. etc. because we enjoy doing the same. Come on

Achievements arent just for kids, thats just your opinion. More elitism :rolleyes:

Now, people who didnt experience "difficult" content was generally because they didnt have the gear or experience. This can be because "they had a life" but also because they just plain werent as good at the game as the others.

The rest of your post seems like generic indignant ranting so I'll pretty much disregard that, but hopefully get to the actual crux of the debate.

People who havent cleared the content cannot comment about how there is too little of it because they obviously havent run out of content for their skill level or for the amount of time they are willing to invest.

In Vanilla and TBC this was significantly more cut and dry, you had a black and white divide of those who progressed enough to finish the content and those who didnt.

In wrath you have a different system and therefore additional problems in that those who have not finished the content due to being unwilling or unable to complete hard modes, havent cleared the content but still feel they have.

This, to be totally honest, is almost certainly elitism but it is justified. Because they have cleared it, they can say whether there is too little. If you havent finished it, then there is obviously enough of it to keep you with stuff to do.

You can comment all you like about the content is boring or rubbish or just not fun, but you cant argue that it isnt long/difficult enough for you, unless you have finished. Thus proving that it wasnt long/difficult enough for you

And dont get me wrong, you can argue that it is too hard, as people have been doing for ages and things have changed at a result. But seeking more content when you havent finished the current stuff, is a whole other argument.

I'm arguing in circles here, so I'll pretty much just leave it at that, but as much as this argument may have strayed from the point at hand; this is pretty much what the original points were.

TheDoc

I think the take on the topic of "scrubs" is very interesting.

I personally have been playing wow since alpha testing in vanilla, I've more capped level characters then i could shake a stick at, but one thing I never got into was raiding. I got into proper end game raiding, towards the end of TBC, just before the patch came out that made raiding easy in WoW.

Now I consdier myself a very skilled player, and for the time I put into wow, a seriously efficent player.

The experience I got from raiding in TBC, pushed me to get myself ready for raiding in wotlk. For the first time i read into specs, into talents, I read up on gear and a whole new world was opened up to me.

I would have to ask what would be a scrub really? I dinged 80 the other night, and straight away, I compiled a list of tanking gear I need, most of this gear, is in heroics.

so, without thinking about it, I started jumping into heroics. I consulted my friend ( hardcore player) who said, usually you would have to go through normal dungeons to get some gear, to start you off into Heroics.

In the last 3 nights, I have compiled 40% of the tanking gear I need to start proper tanking. I entered heroics, performed efficently and effectively, with gear I'd got from quest rewards, I essentially skipped the " Get gear in normal dungeons before heroics"

So I disagree on that point, if anything, that makes me somewhat better then those that pained through normal dungeons to get gear for heroics.

I have to amdit, I'm dps DK at the moment with plans to go tanking, and every group, i told them i would be rolling on tank gear, no problems, no whipes, in out got my gear.


There is a serious amount of elitism in WoW, thats obvious. But the way I look at it is, there is really no elite anymore.

Gear was once the pinnacle of whose the who in your realm. Nowadays, everyone has epics, everyone has T7, its all a peace of piss.

So I'm much more confident in my ability to perform to a high standard of efficent and play in a raid, and my ability to perform in raids I shouldnt be in in the first place.

I'd take serious offence and have serious resentment for anyone who called me a "Scrub".

Nehaxak

You've completely twisted my words and put some points in I never even mentioned so honestly, I'll just leave you too it and go elsewhere as I cba arguing over a game anymore here with some people who just take it waaaaayyyy too serious. This forums dead anyway, there's about 7 regular posters, wonder why :rolleyes:

sunzz

Maybe its because people spout ****e on a daily basis and contradict themselves with each and every thread they feel the need to dribble in.
For someone who has openly ridiculed most of the users on here for raiding alot and having no life you sure seem to put in the hours.

Thedoc. You can't compare jumping into a heroic with bad gear as a dps and rolling on tanking gear as apposed to dustaz being an ACTUAL tank who NEEDS to be crit immune to do said heroics hence the reason for doing normal heroics to get tanking gear.

TheDoc

sunzz wrote: »

Maybe its because people spout ****e on a daily basis and contradict themselves with each and every thread they feel the need to dribble in.
For someone who has openly ridiculed most of the users on here for raiding alot and having no life you sure seem to put in the hours.

Thedoc. You can't compare jumping into a heroic with bad gear as a dps and rolling on tanking gear as apposed to dustaz being an ACTUAL tank who NEEDS to be crit immune to do said heroics hence the reason for doing normal heroics to get tanking gear.

YeahI understand. I'm learning all the time really jsut reading up about this, semeingly there is massive time and effort put into actual tanking heroics. To be honest I just realised today about crit imune etc, I've never been itnerested in tank **** until yesterday really

Dedication to the cause

Horsefumbler

Nehaxak wrote: »

I disagree, it's being pug'ed in my server and the only reason I've not gone on one of those pug's is because I'm too busy with the guild and would prefer to save that moment of Sarth 3d for doing it with the guild. Again though, all being pug'ed, no great achievement at all really.

um... I want to believe this, I really do... :pac:

WellyJ

Horsefumbler wrote: »

um... I want to believe this, I really do... :pac:

I found that part quite amusing, it's like "Well I could do it... but I just don't want to!!"

Or shorter again - "QQ"

Splinter

so, i spent an hour running around ulduar on the ptr with 2 guildies last night, and its HUGE! looks phenomenal too. well impressed with the graphics, and they appeared to have changed the graphics in general. was getting 240 fps at some times :S everything looks a lot smoother and cleaner in general. yogg sarron's prison looks awesome as does freya's place. managed to find the tram too but despite some people reporting it working, i couldnt get it going

but wow, its a great looking instance.

sunzz

good to know, I've given up trying to get on the PTR.

Splinter

went in last night and did the flame leviation trash (the vehicle fight). and man its fun. was on the bike and fun covering a mob in oil and watching a mate set them alight :P