Accountancy next bubble to burst.

Kinetic^

DJDC wrote: »

I am sure most people on this thread have found it illuminating in terms of exposing as lies the HR nonsense that college students hear and showing the true ruthlessness and working conditions within the beancounting firms.

Your attempt to stifle flow of information through thinly veiled threats is overly authoritative and arrogant.

Dudara is right tbh. He's warning people. With the way things are, firms/companies will be looking for any excuse to fire people and the misuse of company computers is known as an easy way of trimming the fat. I think you should think about what you post before doing so in future.

dudara

DJDC wrote: »

Your attempt to stifle flow of information through thinly veiled threats is overly authoritative and arrogant.

LOL - seriously, that made me laugh out loud.

It's a simple fact that most firms (nevermind the Big 4) will monitor all internet traffic. This monitoring goes far beyond just logging the pages that you visit, and cannot be simply circumvented by deleting your recent internet history.

Recruiters now regularly google candidates and look at their Facebook/Bebo etc profiles. You'd have to incredibly naive to construe my advice as a 'threat'. It's good, old-fashioned advice about how to conduct yourself in the workplace.

Berti Vogts

http://www.thepost.ie/breakingnews/business/eyaucwmhojcw/

Sirsparrow

Yep. Paycut + Payfreeze, same as KPMG

Hackysack

It's extremely harsh on first years. Especially since we were told that the next batch of 1st years will be likely to start on 800 euros less than the current first years per annum.

Kinetic^

Hackysack wrote: »

It's extremely harsh on first years. Especially since we were told that the next batch of 1st years will be likely to start on 800 euros less than the current first years per annum.

If you have a job then you're lucky.

tywy

I know I'm glad to have a job! Starting in September!

Kingkong

http://www.examiner.com/x-3040-Minneapolis-Life-in-the-Cubicle-Examiner~y2009m3d10-PWC-Deloitte-EY-and-KPMG-Big-4-employees-modern-indentured-servants

Running Bing

Sirsparrow wrote: »

Yep. Paycut + Payfreeze, same as KPMG

Payfreeze?


I did not hear about that...that would be a real killer.

The_Hustler

The payfreezes are never mentioned in the news reports for some reason. They are as big an issue as the paycuts for trainees

Sirsparrow

Yeah the paycut isn't the issue (for me at least), it's the pay freeze.

Innervision

How long are the pay freezes for does anyone know?

seamus

Innervision wrote: »

How long are the pay freezes for does anyone know?

Until further notice effectively. Although some Deloitte afaik specified Autumn 2010.

Hackysack

September 2010 apparently. It's the same as KPMG isn't?

DJDC

From talking to accountant friends, auditing is getting absolutely decimated but reinsurance, insolvency is still ok and even growing. Guesstimates are that for auditing the peak market of 2006/2007 is going collapse about 30-40% with similar consquences on jobs in that area.

lolly.o

Hackysack wrote: »

It's extremely harsh on first years. Especially since we were told that the next batch of 1st years will be likely to start on 800 euros less than the current first years per annum.

As a previous poster said you are extremely lucky to have a job and as well as that big 4 trainees start on up to 4 or 5000 more than trainees in smaller practices so you aren't that bad off.

Running Bing

lolly.o wrote: »

As a previous poster said you are extremely lucky to have a job and as well as that big 4 trainees start on up to 4 or 5000 more than trainees in smaller practices so you aren't that bad off.

Tbh Ive seen that attitude before "your lucky to have a job" and I think its bollox tbh.

I worked by balls off for the leaving. I worked my balls off for four years to get a good degree. I sent so many CV's and made so many cold calls during college to get good work over the summer that would look attractive to employers. I spent hours and hours filling out app forms and attending interviews for all the Big 8 firms so I had the best chance of getting a job.

Im not in the position I am in by luck or chance. Im there because I worked my balls off. So after all that I get a job with one of the biggest professional service firms in the world and Im starting on money like that?


I really wonder how necessary this is. It amazes me bank employees are taking no paycut and to add insult to injury Im sure the Big 4 will take in another 150-200 grads each next year. It smacks to me of "If you dont like it go elsewhere...." because they know there is nothing going elsewhere.:rolleyes:

lolly.o

Babybing wrote: »

Tbh Ive seen that attitude before "your lucky to have a job" and I think its bollox tbh.

You obviously have no idea what its like to currently work in the accountancy sector in Ireland.

They're are people losing their jobs every day, we are all suffering pay cuts but I for one am glad that I'm not the one coming out of the partners office in tears facing redundancy. I can cope with a pay cut knowing that at least I stil have a job and I know I am lucky to have one.

The majority of trainees in accountancy firms have all worked their asses off to get where they are - you're no different from most. And you are no exception to the current economic climate, everyone is suffering in some way - in the accountancy sector anyway.

We could spend hours every day complaining about the banks etc but thats not going to change anything. Just get on with it, do your job well and hope that things will eventually improve.

Every accountancy trainee in the country is in the same position whether you're starting off or nearly finished. It's actually ten times worse for those coming to the end of a contract, with the prospect of being let go. So to be honest you are lucky to have a job.

Berti Vogts

lolly.o wrote: »

Babybing wrote: »

Tbh Ive seen that attitude before "your lucky to have a job" and I think its bollox tbh.

You obviously have no idea what its like to currently work in the accountancy sector in Ireland.

They're are people losing their jobs every day, we are all suffering pay cuts but I for one am glad that I'm not the one coming out of the partners office in tears facing redundancy. I can cope with a pay cut knowing that at least I stil have a job and I know I am lucky to have one.

The majority of trainees in accountancy firms have all worked their asses off to get where they are - you're no different from most. And you are no exception to the current economic climate, everyone is suffering in some way - in the accountancy sector anyway.

We could spend hours every day complaining about the banks etc but thats not going to change anything. Just get on with it, do your job well and hope that things will eventually improve.

Every accountancy trainee in the country is in the same position whether you're starting off or nearly finished. It's actually ten times worse for those coming to the end of a contract, with the prospect of being let go. So to be honest you are lucky to have a job.

+ 1, a 5% pay cut is nothing in current circumstances. Have people not seen the latest inflation (deflation) figures?

Running Bing

Possibilities wrote: »

lolly.o wrote: »

Babybing wrote: »

Tbh Ive seen that attitude before "your lucky to have a job" and I think its bollox tbh.

+ 1, a 5% pay cut is nothing in current circumstances. Have people not seen the latest inflation (deflation) figures?

Can anybody confirm is KPMG a 5% or 10% pay cut?

Kinetic^

Babybing wrote: »

Tbh Ive seen that attitude before "your lucky to have a job" and I think its bollox tbh.

I worked by balls off for the leaving. I worked my balls off for four years to get a good degree. I sent so many CV's and made so many cold calls during college to get good work over the summer that would look attractive to employers. I spent hours and hours filling out app forms and attending interviews for all the Big 8 firms so I had the best chance of getting a job.

Im not in the position I am in by luck or chance. Im there because I worked my balls off. So after all that I get a job with one of the biggest professional service firms in the world and Im starting on money like that?


I really wonder how necessary this is. It amazes me bank employees are taking no paycut and to add insult to injury Im sure the Big 4 will take in another 150-200 grads each next year. It smacks to me of "If you dont like it go elsewhere...." because they know there is nothing going elsewhere.:rolleyes:

What you need to realise is that you are there by luck. There are hundreds of graduates without jobs and gladly take your position given the chance.Quit your whining and be grateful that you have employment for the next few years.

Running Bing

Kinetic^ wrote: »

What you need to realise is that you are there by luck.

How am I there by luck?

I dont understand this.

There are hundreds of graduates without jobs and gladly take your position given the chance.Quit your whining and be grateful that you have employment for the next few years.

Of course there are. There will always be people worse off than you and there will always be people better off....I dont see how thats relevant.

Kinetic^

It's relevant because you've been given a job for 3 years minimum and feel that you've been hard done by. As for the luck part,having a job with the way the country has gone is having luck.If you're not happy with the pay,try the dole and see how far you get.Quit being ungrateful.

manafana

actually with the pay frezze by next year its more like a 25% pay-cut, and just so you know theirs still plenty work going to be done.

Anyone from banking brave enough to step up here and tell us why they havnt seen any pay cuts, just lay offs of staff that hadnt been their long?

DJDC

You are right, its amazing AIB and BOI haven't made mass redundancies if you look at their horrofic preformance recently. However the Irish banks are still a cosy cartel of simple consumer lending and as such aren't as exposed to the harsh relaties of the private sector as much as the accountancy firms.

Compare to the investment banks in London where there has been devasting cuts in headcount, over 20% in may places. The fact that AIB and BOI have been taking on bugger all graduates since 2007 also exposes their emphasis staff retention similar to a semi-state rather than the private sectors focus on developing new talent and improving the calibre of their staff.

Running Bing

Kinetic^ wrote: »

It's relevant because you've been given a job for 3 years minimum and feel that you've been hard done by.

I never said I feel hard done by, I said when I hear the phrase "your lucky to have a job" I think its ****e. Maybe my employer is lucky to have me? I really dont want to come across as cocky or arrogant, I just have more self-esteem than to think Im lucky to have a job.

Quit being ungrateful.

Oh Im very grateful. Grateful that I have a good family and had the opportunities to get an education when some dont even have that. I feel lucky to have had those advantages but Im sorry Im not lucky I have a job...Im just as valuable to my employer as they are to me and I earned it through hard work, luck does not come into it.


As for whining......I dont mind the pay cut. As I said in previous posts, times are tough, everybody in the firm is affected and its fair enough but a payfreeze? Seems extreme to me.

defiantshrimp

lolly.o wrote: »

Can anybody confirm is KPMG a 5% or 10% pay cut?

I have a few friends starting as trainees in KPMG and their pay was cut by c.10%. So if the bottom rung is being cut by that much I'd imagine everyone else is too.

DJDC wrote: »

You are right, its amazing AIB and BOI haven't made mass redundancies if you look at their horrofic preformance recently. However the Irish banks are still a cosy cartel of simple consumer lending and as such aren't as exposed to the harsh relaties of the private sector as much as the accountancy firms.

Compare to the investment banks in London where there has been devasting cuts in headcount, over 20% in may places. The fact that AIB and BOI have been taking on bugger all graduates since 2007 also exposes their emphasis staff retention similar to a semi-state rather than the private sectors focus on developing new talent and improving the calibre of their staff.

Very true. I reckon because they are heavily unionised it's just easier for them to cut off the new grads and keep the fat they already have. Otherwise they'd likely face stikes and other unpleasantries.

seamus

defiantshrimp wrote: »

I have a few friends starting as trainees in KPMG and their pay was cut by c.10%. So if the bottom rung is being cut by that much I'd imagine everyone else is too.

New grad rate has been cut by 10%. Existing trainees are losing 5% where they earn less than €35k and 10% where they earn more than that. For all other staff, the drops are similar but the line is drawn at €40k (i.e. 5% under, 10% over).

The_Hustler

I would say the ones who get let go are unlucky, not that the ones who have a job are lucky.

I agree with Babybing. And now I'm going to be on these crappy cut 1st year wages going into the final year of my contract. For the work we have to do it doesn't seem lucky at all. I've been on the dole before, it was heaven compared to the ****e I've had to put up with in work for the last fortnight.

Fiona44

i definitely dont feel lucky after getting a 10% paycut for the work im doing, the ones who got let go just happen to be more unlucky than we are!

manafana

think that the point with everyonei have talked to and no matter what theu say upstiars we knows its truth.
We took paycuts yet are seeing an immdediate reduction in staff while work levels are still high. so we have taken a pay cut for more work, now some will say thats way now more overtime less pay, any place wiht unions wont allow it. My problem is not less pay and more work this year, my problem is next year i will be on same wage preforming much more work and probably been asked alot more of than empolyees previosuly on wages 5-10K greater than whatg im doin work on.
When all those unions let their people take cuts, then this country will take a step forward, and lets hope this government doesnt solve long term problems with short term solutions.

aassddff

Dont forget when calculating how much you are down by that it will not be just the 10% but the higher rates of PAYE and levies next month. An exciting few years ahead, hold onto your jobs

Cyrus

DJDC wrote: »

You are right, its amazing AIB and BOI haven't made mass redundancies if you look at their horrofic preformance recently. However the Irish banks are still a cosy cartel of simple consumer lending and as such aren't as exposed to the harsh relaties of the private sector as much as the accountancy firms.

Compare to the investment banks in London where there has been devasting cuts in headcount, over 20% in may places. The fact that AIB and BOI have been taking on bugger all graduates since 2007 also exposes their emphasis staff retention similar to a semi-state rather than the private sectors focus on developing new talent and improving the calibre of their staff.

two things here:

1) aib and boi's performance before bad debts provision remains largely the same as last year, so its safe to assume that there is a similar activity level and they need the staff and

2) im not sure if any of you have thought about this but kpmg et al are partnerships, the less profits there are the less the partners can take out, the partners are feeling it directly in their pockets so they decide to cut costs, bye bye jobs. a different situation to a plc.

Cyrus

Babybing wrote: »

I never said I feel hard done by, I said when I hear the phrase "your lucky to have a job" I think its ****e. Maybe my employer is lucky to have me? I really dont want to come across as cocky or arrogant, I just have more self-esteem than to think Im lucky to have a job.

Oh Im very grateful. Grateful that I have a good family and had the opportunities to get an education when some dont even have that. I feel lucky to have had those advantages but Im sorry Im not lucky I have a job...Im just as valuable to my employer as they are to me and I earned it through hard work, luck does not come into it.

As for whining......I dont mind the pay cut. As I said in previous posts, times are tough, everybody in the firm is affected and its fair enough but a payfreeze? Seems extreme to me.

Babybing, time to suck it up - no big 4 firm is lucky to have you, it may turn out that way after 2 years or so but right now, like every other trainee that joins you are pretty much useless to them, they have to take time to train you, coach you and overlook your work, do not overestimate yourself.

And like i said below, its a partnership, the partners make the decisions so as to best line their own pockets, i dont know why you keep comparing to banks, they are in no way alike.

so either suck it up or find a new profession.

Running Bing

Cyrus wrote: »

And like i said below, its a partnership, the partners make the decisions so as to best line their own pockets, i dont know why you keep comparing to banks, they are in no way alike.

Yeah that is a good point. I still dont understand why high earners in gov are taken voluntary instead of compulsory paycuts but thats a different debate and something I just posted as an aside.

Cyrus wrote: »

Babybing, time to suck it up

How do you mean suck it up? If you mean accept this is the way it is, get on with it and work to the best of my ability then the advice is pretty redundant.....I never even indicated I would act to the contrary.

- no big 4 firm is lucky to have you, it may turn out that way after 2 years or so but right now, like every other trainee that joins you are pretty much useless to them, they have to take time to train you, coach you and overlook your work, do not overestimate yourself.

Again its just different ways of looking at it. Dont take the wrong idea from my posts......I am not so conceited that I think I will be immediately valuable to the firm or have some amazing knowledge of accountancy.

You say they might be lucky to have me in two years.....to me thats the same as being lucky to have me now. Its an investment.

Cyrus

Babybing wrote: »

How do you mean suck it up? If you mean accept this is the way it is, get on with it and work to the best of my ability then the advice is pretty redundant.....I never even indicated I would act to the contrary.

Again its just different ways of looking at it. Dont take the wrong idea from my posts......I am not so conceited that I think I will be immediately valuable to the firm or have some amazing knowledge of accountancy.

You say they might be lucky to have me in two years.....to me thats the same as being lucky to have me now. Its an investment.

Sorry i didnt mean to intimate that you wont work to the best of your abilities and out the effort in etc and i know these pay cuts are demoralising but the only choices are to 'suck it up' or to not join.

they expect to be lucky to have everyone after 2 years thats where they make there money, unfortunately tho out of every 10 trainees only 3 or 4 make really good seniors!

Mr. Incognito

Babybing, time to suck it up - no big 4 firm is lucky to have you, it may turn out that way after 2 years or so but right now, like every other trainee that joins you are pretty much useless to them, they have to take time to train you, coach you and overlook your work, do not overestimate yourself.

so either suck it up or find a new profession.

That is one of the most condecending rubbish posts I've seen here in along time. Trainees do the grunt work- the horrible recs and menial tasks that keep the money rolling in. The Firm also gets to bill this work at a MUCH higher rate than they are paying said paper monkey. Trainees are the lifeblood of any firm, as for overlooking, ALL work should be overlooked, regardless of what level you are at. The Firm isn't doing people a favour. It's called WORK for a reason, and to be honest there is very little coaching in a Big 4 environment or "personal development". It's all about getting the work done. Period.

And like i said below, its a partnership, the partners make the decisions so as to best line their own pockets, i dont know why you keep comparing to banks, they are in no way alike.

THIS I agree with. I find it shocking that they have been so quick to cut with no perceptible drop in Revenue. All Four churned out growth and pretty obscene profits last year.

Cyrus

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

That is one of the most condecending rubbish posts I've seen here in along time. Trainees do the grunt work- the horrible recs and menial tasks that keep the money rolling in. The Firm also gets to bill this work at a MUCH higher rate than they are paying said paper monkey. Trainees are the lifeblood of any firm, as for overlooking, ALL work should be overlooked, regardless of what level you are at. The Firm isn't doing people a favour. It's called WORK for a reason, and to be honest there is very little coaching in a Big 4 environment or "personal development". It's all about getting the work done. Period.

well i disagree and i have trained in a big 4, trainees do grunt work but its easy work for the first few years (unless you show exceptional ability and are challenged with a little extra work).

from my own experience as a senior and looking at friends as first and second year managers trainees get away with murder because someone else always picks up the pieces

all arent like that but a lot are.

manafana

can i just ad also that while we are complaining bot are pay cuts, the public sector workers are having a protest at lunch over their pension levy and not getting another rise.
Now they have among the safest jobs and surely im not the only one annoyed by their selfish antics in what is a very safe job, and are not subject to the reviews we get in our work.

tywy

manafana wrote: »

can i just ad also that while we are complaining bot are pay cuts, the public sector workers are having a protest at lunch over their pension levy and not getting another rise.
Now they have among the safest jobs and surely im not the only one annoyed by their selfish antics in what is a very safe job, and are not subject to the reviews we get in our work.

Don't forget who was earning all the cash, getting all the bonuses and the nice company cars during the celtic tiger... Public servants got none of that.

Plus I don't think it's to do with the actual money, it's more to do with the unfairness of it. There has been no clear cut plan presented by the government about how to get us out of this mess. If you're in a low paid civil service job the pension levy could be very significant when there is a mortgage to pay etc. They don't know what's gonna come next. I think this is why a lot of them are disgruntled. You can't plan the next year if you're expecting a pay cut, extra tax and the levy... what'll be next. The government have dealt with this very badly.

Look at the Big 4. They told it straight. 5% cut for those under 35k, 10% for those over. Pay freeze until 2010. It was also indicated as to who would be made redundant. Of course jobs in these firms wouldn't be considered as secure as those in the public sector but there is a good indication of how safe or not safe jobs are.

I also think it's a case of the big green giant raising its ugly head all over the private sector. You are all just jealous that you didn't get in there when you should have if you wanted that sort of job security. You took the risk in order to be paid more and reaped the benefits until now.

For example, lets say X is in the private sector, pays into his own pension, lets say he pays 8% his employer pays 6%. If he is on 35k, he probably expects a 3k bonus at Christmas if his business has been doing well - in the celtic tiger years I'm sure it was. 3k is a good bit more than 6% that he's contributed to his pension. Now look at the civil servant, on 35k, the government are paying his pension but he sees no 3k in his bank account in the new year and no hope of it during the celtic tiger years but he got his pension paid.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I agree with the levy, the country is in big big trouble and things need to be done but there definitely needs to be more structure on the governments part. The public servants feel hard done by by this levy. The see themselves as being the only ones being hit in the nuts! As regards redundancies, that's life in a recession, maybe in retrospect you should have applied to the civil service or ask yourself why you didn't :P

Sorry for going off topic!

Berti Vogts

tywy wrote: »

.

For example, lets say X is in the private sector, pays into his own pension, lets say he pays 8% his employer pays 6%. If he is on 35k, he probably expects a 3k bonus at Christmas if his business has been doing well - in the celtic tiger years I'm sure it was. 3k is a good bit more than 6% that he's contributed to his pension. Now look at the civil servant, on 35k, the government are paying his pension but he sees no 3k in his bank account in the new year and no hope of it during the celtic tiger years but he got his pension paid.

A €3,000 bonus at Christmas for those on €35,000? Is this some parallel universe private sector that I'm unaware of?

tywy

I know someone in an engineering firm who got that...

EDIT: This Christmas actually!

Berti Vogts

Well, it's very unusual then and not representative of what the average private sector worker on €35K gets at Christmas.

defiantshrimp

tywy wrote: »

Don't forget who was earning all the cash, getting all the bonuses and the nice company cars during the celtic tiger... Public servants got none of that.

No, just pay rises well in excess of inflation combined with ultra secure pensions so that public sector workers earn more on average than private sector workers when experience and qualifications are accounted for.

Climber

The public servants feel hard done by by this levy. The see themselves as being the only ones being hit in the nuts!

I understand that you feel hard done by, who wouldn't?

But the fact that some civil servants believe that everyone should feel the same pain equally is simply illogical. Take a look at the Big 4's. The people that just got the bullet are feeling more pain than the Partners.

If my employer is doing well in comparison than other employers then obviousy the pain I'm dished out will be less than to an employee who's employer is not doing as well.

If an employer (the Governement) is having severe cash flow problems, then it's employees (the civil servants) will have to take the pain.

tywy

Just to clear up I'm not a civil servant... I've just been trying to see it from their perspective that's all.

dudara

I also recently learned that the public sector levy isn't hitting all grades equally. I don't have confirmation but apparently some lower grades are having more deducted from their wages than higher grades.

I don't generally have much sympathy for public sector workers (the lazy ones at least) but they are frustrated by this lack of transparency and you can't blame them for that.

walshy123

do the pay freezes apply to standard ICAI recommended increments for passing exams?

Kinetic^

walshy123 wrote: »

do the pay freezes apply to standard ICAI recommended increments for passing exams?

You just answered your own question.

ontour

I am hopefully starting an accounting and finance course in Sept it last three years, am I mad? seriously though?? :rolleyes: