Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Genesis
-
18-02-2009 12:31pm#1
Comments
-
Ray Wilson never really had a chance. Known to most as Stiltskin's singer, he seemed a strange choice & it didn't sit well with many fans. Calling All Stations was a good album & took them in another different direction, but Joe Public just wasn't buying into it & the tour collapsed, swiftly followed by the band itself.
I agree with everything you wrote there (ain't that a surprise?
) but i want to touch on this briefly, just to hammer across the point that the fans did eventually accept Wilson once the tour got under way because he was able to do the Gabriel material so well, and because the tours were so short and brief, bootlegs of the tour were sought after for years after it. Despite the fact that Collins had taken half the crew (Streumer & Thompson) with him.
The fact that Wilson was then frozen out of the band, with the final nail in the coffin being left off the Carpet Crawlers remake in 99 (he was supposed to be included in one of the verses to have all 3 singers in on it) and not be informed, not only did Wilson not have a chance, but he was entirely f*cked over in the process, and his career never truly recovered.
I know the movie Rock Star was more aimed at Judas Priest, but the day i saw that movie, i thought it screamed Genesis 90s era, as far as the story went.
Just my €2,000,000 worth.0 -
Cheers for that, Shawn
just to flesh it out a bit though...
Yes, absolutely, it was sh*tty to exclude Ray from the Carpet Crawlers 99. There's various versions as to why. Apparently Tony & Mike didn't like Ray doing (and promoting the fact that he would be) Genesis material in his solo shows, in particular songs that they hadn't touched when they were together. Without actually saying so publically, they felt he was milking his brief stint at the mike. I think personally that they took the relative failure of CAS very badly & were keen to distance themselves from Ray. Whatever the real reasons, Mike & Tony come out of that episode pretty badly, imo. I suspect Tony was the main instigator, he's a real strong-headed guy, and it was he who mixed Steve Hackett's work to the point of being almost inaudible on Seconds Out, because he had
left after W & W.
The CAS tour couldn't, imo, be considered a success in any real way. Large venues were replaced with arenas in Europe, the staging was toned down, a lot of long time fans didn't care much for Ray's kissing the hands of fans type presentation (much too Stiltskin, not the Genesis way, old boy!) and the feedback from the European tour, along with lukewarm reviews of the album, caused the USA tour to be scrapped altogether.
Now, I think there were far wider reasons than the quality of Ray's input as to why the album & tour went badly, but he was the thing that was different & he took the brunt of the blame. Funny enough, in recent years, Tony & Mike have spoken warmly about CAS & Ray in general & said they wished they had pushed harder for a 2nd album. I think the whole thing would have gone better under a different name.
CAS was the first Genesis album since Abacab not to have a live show DVD release. Lucky there's a decent boot of it around, eh Shawn?;)0 -
Apparently Tony & Mike didn't like Ray doing (and promoting the fact that he would be) Genesis material in his solo shows, in particular songs that they hadn't touched when they were together. Without actually saying so publically, they felt he was milking his brief stint at the mike.
I'm not too sure about this, didn't he not start that around 2000, by that stage CC had already been redone and the distance had already been settled. Of course, you'd know more on this, but from what i recalled, he started the touring around mid 99, and ended up producing a live album out of it in 2001.I think personally that they took the relative failure of CAS very badly & were keen to distance themselves from Ray. Whatever the real reasons, Mike & Tony come out of that episode pretty badly, imo. I suspect Tony was the main instigator, he's a real strong-headed guy
This i'd actually go with, also it should be noted that promotion for CAS was piss poor too. I also hear that the Point was half full for their gig in 1998 too. It's a shame really, but i blame a lot of that down to the fact that radios and TV flat out didn't promote the album or the singles, or else very sparingly. And you're not gonna go to a gig because you haven't heard the new lead singer, and you're not gonna hear a new lead singer because you're not gonna spend £15 (at the time) on the album, because you haven't heard any of the singles being played!The CAS tour couldn't, imo, be considered a success in any real way. Large venues were replaced with arenas in Europe, the staging was toned down, a lot of long time fans didn't care much for Ray's kissing the hands of fans type presentation (much too Stiltskin, not the Genesis way, old boy!) and the feedback from the European tour, along with lukewarm reviews of the album, caused the USA tour to be scrapped altogether.
To Wilson's credit, at least he didn't do that goofy dance from 1992, and he's still not doing it 15 years after the fact either!
I never saw a Stiltskin live show, so i couldn't compare. I know Wilson brought up the class differential issue in interviews, although he didn't do any favours with himself in said interview (who cares if Rutherford and Banks play polo when they're not recording or touring anyway?). But i'll get onto that later.Now, I think there were far wider reasons than the quality of Ray's input as to why the album & tour went badly, but he was the thing that was different & he took the brunt of the blame. Funny enough, in recent years, Tony & Mike have spoken warmly about CAS & Ray in general & said they wished they had pushed harder for a 2nd album. I think the whole thing would have gone better under a different name.
I would tend to agree here definitely. Although there was still a core group of Genesis there. Suffice to say, both Phil and Genesis suffered badly in the 90s with him leaving (Dance Into The Light wasn't exactly a huge success either). I think it would have worked under the Genesis name, but 1) the album was rushed. Had they stepped back they'd have copped that most of the discarded tracks would have sounded better on the album, Sign Your Life Away and Run Out Of Time from the Not About Us single could have easily replaced turkeys like Alien Afternoon. And Congo was a bad idea to have as a first single, especially after the success of I Can't Dance.
CAS unfortunately screamed of rush job and poor promotion.CAS was the first Genesis album since Abacab not to have a live show DVD release. Lucky there's a decent boot of it around, eh Shawn?;)
And i'm eternally grateful for it, and the Duke tour boot which was also quite awesome
Edit: This has strayed a bit, gonna suggest to KH to turn the last couple of Genesis related posts into a seperate thread, as i'd actually like to keep the discussion up. 0 -
-
First up, big thank you to Karl for making this a seperate thread. :cool:
(was a cool idea Shawn!)
Hey, only way I was going to be able to learn more bout em!Ok - Carpet Crawl 99. I really shouldn't smoke so much in the afternoon!:o
Ray was originally told he would be working on the song, but then they went ahead without him. There still are various theories as to what was going on, but I think I had my timeline wrong regarding the guys views on Ray's solo gigs. Not by much though, and you have to believe Tony Smith (Genesis manager) would've had an ear close to the ground. I think there were some low-key warm-up gigs around the Edinburgh area too. But anyway, i think the negative thinking had certainly started at that time. It wasn't too long after that the band started paying Ray weekly wages to compensate for the fact they wouldn't be making the 2nd album he was contracted for.
The bit that baffles me, is that given how much of a fan that Wilson was growing up, It would have happened anyway. Surely Rutherford, Banks and even Wilson would have seen that one coming a mile away? Which is why i boiled a lot of it down to the whole failure of CAS adding to tensions in the band.The CAS tour was indeed poorly attended. The album wasn't pushed hard. An old pal of mine was A & R man for one of the biggest record labels in the states, was a big G fan & always knew what was going on. He told me in advance that there was little appetite for the album stateside, radio wouldn't play it & with the charts full of doosh-doosh crap over here, he wasn't confident about Europe either. As usual, he was right. Tony Smith would have been hearing similar views & wouldn't spend millions flogging a half-dead horse.
It wasn't just doosh doosh that would have marred success with CAS back then, 1997 became boyband central over there with the emergence of the likes of the Backstreet Boys and N-Stync, etc. And if that wasn't enough, R&B had hit serious mainstream over there, combined with the ultimate death of grunge, There really wasn't a market for proper musicians in the US chart, and the UK chart wouldn't be too far behind either unfortunately. I'm in touch with a couple of lads from the states, big Genesis fans too, but still curse the name of Ray Wilson and the CAS album. It's a shame really as it really doesn't get the credit it deserved.I still like the album - most of which was written by Banks/Rutherford before they even picked a new singer- and I've always said that the 2nd album would've been much stronger.
Yeah, and Wilson's solo work isn't too bad either. It would have been interesting to see how it would have gone. Sadly i've given up trying to beat my brains to a pulp wondering what it would be like.Incidentally, sound guru Nick Davis is currently working on remasters of the live G albums. As with all the previous remasters, there will be lots of bonus DVD footage included. Sadly, there seems to be no mention of, or appetite for, CAS tour footage being included.
It's like they're trying to pretend it never happened, and I think Ray now wishes it never had.
It ultimately screwed his career, especially when Stiltskin had received a bit of commercial success two years prior to him joining Genesis. Even sadder thing is, even if Collins had been around for another album with them, or even if CAS had Collins on vocals, it would have tanked. It was too easy to blame the singer, and Wilson was a very easy and available scapegoat. Music had changed a lot since 1991 and their previous studio release, and Collins must have known that, given how poorly Both Sides was received.
I think Phil was the smartest out of all of them at the time, but hindsight is indeed 20/20.0 -
Advertisement
-
You're probably spot on about the boy band era, Shawn. I'll bow to your superior knowledge anyway:D:D
I hear what you're saying about the album being doomed to fail regardless of who was singing, but I'd only agree up to a point.
Had Phil stayed after WCD, the continuity would still have been there, and there probably wouldn't have been such a gap in time between albums. Add that to the fact that Phil was still mega popular and the follow up to WCD would still have shifted vast numbers. But you're spot on that by the time CAS was released, it was already pretty much doomed. The world had moved on & the market had gone with it. It didn't help anyone that Phil farted around for a couple of years before finally admitting he was done with Genesis, who knows what might have happened if CAS, with Ray, had come out a year or two earlier.
I'm happy to see that Ray is back on the road. He's booked up pretty much for the rest of this year, a load of acoustic "solo" gigs, and a decent handful of "Ray Wilson & Stiltskin" gigs too. Like Genesis, he seems to be really popular in Germany.
Incidentally, did you know that, for a while, there was a chance that Ray was going to play support act on the 2007 tour? I think it was the fact that they decided not to have a support act at all, rather than awkwardness with it being Ray, that it didn't actually happen.
Ref Phil's solo career, he got too big for his own good. The press felt it was time to knock him down. The bollox about divorcing his 2nd wife by fax and just too many downbeat ballads and he went from hero to zero almost overnight. He's a real heart on the sleeve type & was an easy target. One of the best things about the 07 tour was to see him with his old buddies & actually enjoying himself again.
But as much as they all enjoyed it, you won't see them onstage again unless Peter Gabriel finally stops fecking around a& agrees to do the few Lamb shows they've spoke about for years now.0 -
You're probably spot on about the boy band era, Shawn. I'll bow to your superior knowledge anyway:D:D
My superior knowledge? Heh, i'll take the compliment but on this subject in particular, i think i fail on that score.I hear what you're saying about the album being doomed to fail regardless of who was singing, but I'd only agree up to a point.
Had Phil stayed after WCD, the continuity would still have been there, and there probably wouldn't have been such a gap in time between albums. Add that to the fact that Phil was still mega popular and the follow up to WCD would still have shifted vast numbers. But you're spot on that by the time CAS was released, it was already pretty much doomed. The world had moved on & the market had gone with it. It didn't help anyone that Phil farted around for a couple of years before finally admitting he was done with Genesis, who knows what might have happened if CAS, with Ray, had come out a year or two earlier.
It wouldn't have mattered if the continuity had still been there though. Given how Grunge was taking the music scene by storm in 1991, I'm still shocked and surprised at the same time by the success of WCD. Several bands who were rising and rising with chart success fell with a very loud crash at about that time, The Alarm and Simple Minds tend to spring to mind here. And Phil didn't exactly give a "prog friendly" image coming off doing the Buster movie either. From that perspective, WCD was doomed to fail. However, i personally think the promo videos for that album saved it. Especially the humourous ones like Jesus He Knows Me, and I Can't Dance (especially the latter because I, for one was getting sick of all the Levi's commercials). Even the one for No Son Of Mine was fairly hard hitting. And a lot of people can relate to it, regardless of who the lyrical viewpoint is from (as it's not revealed of it's the kid or the mom that's the victim).
With Ray, his success came with Stiltskin, a band who came to success, ironically, from a Levi's Jeans commercial which Genesis had spent taking the piss out of two years beforehand. That should have been a sign really, but hindsight is always 20/20. So when Phil did eventually walk, it was open to all possibilities as to who the replacement singer was going to be, when Ray was announced, it left a very bad taste in peoples mouths, and i'll be honest, i wasn't fond of the thought of it at the time, as i'd felt bad for the rest of Stiltskin being left for dead as they were only starting to get places. Of course, I was 20 so what the hell did I know in 1996?
Combined with poor promotion, CAS just didn't stand a chance.I'm happy to see that Ray is back on the road. He's booked up pretty much for the rest of this year, a load of acoustic "solo" gigs, and a decent handful of "Ray Wilson & Stiltskin" gigs too. Like Genesis, he seems to be really popular in Germany.
I'd actually like to see him at some stage, i just wouldn't leave the country for it with my current financial standings (Mortgage to pay and wedding on the way). He comes across as a pretty sound guy as well.Incidentally, did you know that, for a while, there was a chance that Ray was going to play support act on the 2007 tour? I think it was the fact that they decided not to have a support act at all, rather than awkwardness with it being Ray, that it didn't actually happen.
I wasn't aware of that at all! Although I'm not sure if i'd be in such a hurry to jump at that chance had I been Ray, given how he was treated and subsequently frozen out of the band. Time may heal all wounds, sadly it deals them first.Ref Phil's solo career, he got too big for his own good. The press felt it was time to knock him down. The bollox about divorcing his 2nd wife by fax and just too many downbeat ballads and he went from hero to zero almost overnight. He's a real heart on the sleeve type & was an easy target. One of the best things about the 07 tour was to see him with his old buddies & actually enjoying himself again.
Regarding the divorce, there's two sides to every story, i know i've been driven nuts by girls in the past and i've ditched one by text about eight years ago. Some actually have it coming. I don't know what Collins' personal situation (nor do I care, as long as it doesn't affect the music he makes), but Both Sides nearly torpedoed his career. Problem there was every solo album he'd done since about 1983 sounded very similar and he was in dire need of a change of direction, he just picked a bad year to do so. Had he done that BEFORE We Can't Dance, it would have worked because WCD would have bounced his career back had it flopped. But the reunion tour was definitely nice to see, Might pop that on for a quick looksky later, haven't watched it in months.But as much as they all enjoyed it, you won't see them onstage again unless Peter Gabriel finally stops fecking around a& agrees to do the few Lamb shows they've spoke about for years now.
I won't hold my breath, but it is the entertainment industry. Never say never. 0 -
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
The Cut gigs were certainly booked whilst Ray was officially still a G member. As to the set-lists & what was said/thought behind the scenes - I'd say only they know for sure.
In fact, it's a very blurry line as to when ray became "not a genesis member"
He was never actually told that. He was told that the band weren't continuing as their market had gone. They negotiated with Ray, who had a contract for a 2nd album, and agreed to pay a monthly amount of "wages in lieu" for a set period.
Well that's just it, because he was never formally told, it was almost too easy to assume that he was as good as out the second the tour ended, especially when the US leg was shelved.He wasn't involved in the Turn It On Again - The Hits promotion, even though all the previous members were called back into action. You already know he was told he'd be involved in Carpet Crawl 99, then wasn't.
Tony Smith, who's been manager for eons, is the one who Ray has most ill-will for, I think. It does seem he treated Ray, post-CAS, in a very off-hand way.
Anyways, Ray was still very much on the books when he did the Cut gigs. The wages thing & the other sh*t started a little later.
Well that's as good as gospel at this stage then.
I do see your point at his bitterness towards management, It sounds almost reminiscent to Fish vs management and rest of the band back in 1988. One often wonders what would have become if Fish had auditioned for Collins spot around that time. That said, had it happened, we wouldn't have had the goodness that was Sunsets On Empire.ps latest news on Ray is that he's now living full time in Poland. Apparently his new promoter is Polish & has promised him lots of gigs there. Fecking sad this is what he's having to go through nowadays.
It is and it isn't, when you consider how well received he was on that CAS tour in Poland, it makes sense. It's smart business, follow the money trail etc. It's just a shame that the US market could never take to him.0 -
-
-
Great to have some new input on the thread....welcome, guys!
To reply to Dublinwriter's points;
I'd obviously rather see PG up front again as a man in his his 20's. But since that can't happen, I'd take what i can get! The Lamb show of the 70's didn't require a particularly energetic front man anyway, and you wouldn't see PG's gut under the Slipperman outfit!
Whether it will ever happen....Gabe has indeed been non-committal. It came very close in 2006, when the original 5 met up in Glasgow. But PG had an iron in another fire, as he always seems to have. The TIOA 2007 tour came about as a result of that meeting, which was a nice consolation prize.
Gabe hasn't committed, but I believe he's a strong enough character to say "no, never" if that's what he really feels. But it's always "maybe, but not this year, I'm too busy". My personal feeling is that he'll finally agree when he winds down his solo career. I believe he'll want there to be a record of what was a unique live show. I take his comments about preferring to look forward rather than back with a pinch of salt. He wanted to perform Supper's Ready on the Big World tour, it was dropped because his band couldn't play it. So the affection for some of the old material is still there. While I think there's no chance of a big tour, I do think we might still get 3 nights in London & 3 in NYC with the full Lamb show & Supper's ready encore, all recorded in HD for posterity. Possibly a live broadcast to cinemas worldwide too, like the 2007 shows beamed to Vue cinemas.
Ref ReGenesis - good, but The Musical Box are recognised as by far the best tribute band, certainly when it's Gabriel era material. Seen them in Glasgow a few times & they really are impressive. A real pity that they don't come here.
Agree 100% about Steve Hackett. True to his roots, his albums & live shows are a joy to me. Some will say look at his lack of success compared to the other ex-Genesis solo careers, but I think Steve has shown great integrity & can be rightly proud of his solo work. I think Steve, of all the 5-man lineup, would slip easiest back into the early material.
Whilst I've defended Ray's contribution, both here & elsewhere, I couldn't agree that he was the best of the front men. He certainly has a great voice for the material, but his stage personna just didn't fit the bill. I wouldn't go down the bitter road of calling him Genesis karaoke, as many other have. That was patently untue & unfair, but the CAS shows were a different world from what had gone before. I'm lucky, and old, enough to have seen all 3 do Supper's Ready & the rest live. Ray did himself justice alright, but for me it wasn't quite at the heady heights of Gabe or Phil.
I think you have a fair point too, about Genesis becoming a bit of a corporate machine in the end years. The Invisible Touch & We Can't Dance years were an absolutely massive commercial success & the CAS project was the first time their popularity had gone backwards. Banks & Rutherford sure didn't need the money anymore, so when it seemed that the audience had diminished it's easy to imagine how they decided that it was time to call it a day, rather than dilute the status they had worked 30 years to achieve.
I seem to have spent a lifetime defending Genesis! Before Mama, they were never a "cool" band. Then, when they did get commercial success, they were sellouts:rolleyes: Now they're the money-driven bad guys who did Ray wrong.
For all that, the TIOA tour in 2007 sold a million tix across Europe & did similar business in the States. They have a legacy of sublime music & ground-breaking live shows. To any casual observers looking in & maybe wondering how to hear the gist of what the band were all about, I'd say save a few bob for when the Live Albums remasters comes out later this year. Emotive music played impeccably & presented with a sense of theatre. They've been the soundtrack to my life & for all it's cost me to follow them for 37 years (:eek: ) I can't think of money I've spent better!0 -
-
-
-
damonjewel wrote: »i never realised they ever got back together. I still hold onto the opinion that early genesis is where its at. Interestingly big b you think there run starts at foxtrot, i really love nursery cryme and although its not up there i really like trespass. However i also really like hackett's solo efforts
Hi damo
You got me wrong. I didn't think Genesis run started at Foxtrot. Mine did!
I heard Foxtrot just after it was released, and I attended every tour since.
Of course, having heard Foxtrot, I soon picked up the earlier albums. From Genesis To Revelation was like a trial run, but Nursery Cryme is superb - Hogweed, Salmacis & of course The Musical Box being the big hitters, and I'm a big fan of Trespass too. Any album with The Knife & White Mountain on it is ok by me!
The "re-union" was advertised as "6 of the best" & was organised by the band to help out Peter Gabriel, whose poorly attended WOMAD festival just about bankrupted him.0 -
The "re-union" was advertised as "6 of the best" & was organised by the band to help out Peter Gabriel, whose poorly attended WOMAD festival just about bankrupted him.
Which is a scary though, given the guys live performances are some of the best around. He'd easily make a killing on one tour. 0 -
-
Advertisement
-
DublinWriter wrote: »Have you heard the bootleg of the 1982 Milton Kenes reunion?
Sorry DW, meant to say this earlier. If you were building up to offering me a chance to hear it, you'll have seen by now I already have it.
But I'm genuinely grateful for the friendly offer. 0 -
-
damonjewel wrote: »Now I am confused! If someone was to ask me what genesis album to listen too, absolutely it would be foxtrot. Suppers ready aside Horizons, watcher, can utility are brilliant, I would also rate Nursery well above trick or lamb and possibly SEBTP too. Also a big shout for seven stones (love bank's mellotron) on nursery.
Womad, that takes me back I was a Gabriel fan early on (in my life), games without frontiers being one of my first early purchases.
Also I am always surprised at the uncool tag, there following is massive, especially in Italy
And what of hacketts solo stuff?
Ah, Damo, you're a real Gabrielite! Always a pleasure to meet another one
To expand on my album choices -first of all, my enjoyment of them is seperated by only tiny degrees, and probably changes according to my mood.
I choose Foxtrot over Trick because every track is so strong, with Supper being the obvious masterpiece. In my little game of taking Supper out the equation though, I feel that Trick just has more overall strength than Foxtrot. Squonk, Dance on a Volcano, Ripples, Entangled, Los Endos - all absolutely brilliant stuff. But there's a couple of songs I often skip over- Robbery, assault & battery & Mad Man Moon don't do that much for me. And since Supper IS on Foxtrot, overall I prefer it over Trick.
Lamb versus Nursery Cryme, we'll just have to agree to disagree! I adore NC, but for me The Lamb was Gabriel's masterpiece. But I acknowledge that people either get into it or they don't. There was certainly a shift from what had gone before it.
The "uncool" thing never sat well with me either. I'd say parts of it were the public school background, the obscure lyric references & the fact that a lot of Hackett's solos were clever & still part of an overall sound, rather than blistering axeman extravaganzas like you got with Page or Gilmour. Not many people air guitared to Firth of Fifth! Tony Banks was no Emerson -style showman, all in all they were maybe just too polite to be seen as a real rock force? But as you say, they've always had a massive following in Italy, and indeed Germany. Of the 22 gigs in 2007, I think 7 were in Germany & of course they played to 500,000 in Rome!
I'm a big fan of Steve Hackett's solo work & never miss a chance to see him live. Naturally, I have a few live boots in my collection
An old mate of mine does the merchandising at his gigs & he gets incredible positive feedback from long time fans. Steve has always said he'd be up for a reunion tour & I hope against hope that he gets the chance. A very under-rated guitarist, imo.
I'd strongly recommend keeping an eye out for prices coming down on the 70 - 75 box set, the difference Nick Davis has made to the sound is just unbelievable. Those albums have been given a whole new lease of life.
He's currently working on remastering all the live albums, including adding in some tracks that didn't make the released albums. Can you imagine Genesis Live with aded Supper?:) That's one hell of a live album.
All in all, these are good times to be a Genesis fan!0 -
-
-
F**k me what a coincidence, I'm just getting into early Genesis (love the internet for that, it's a lot easier to get albums that you could never get before), this thread and a Genesis documentary on Sky Arts at 9pm (saw bits of it before but watched most of tonight).
Congrats on discovering some great music!
I'm always curious when someone discovers early Genesis - how did you get into it, and what are your favourite tracks & albums so far?0 -
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Advertisement