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Would you put this in your horse's mouth?

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  • 18-02-2009 10:50pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 487 ✭✭


    I know I certainly wouldn't... In fact he'd probably try and run away at the sight of it :crazy:

    From Fugly...

    5-ringdoubletwistedwirebit.jpg
    Look, it's the twelve circles of Hell!
    Things that would be more humane than this bit:

    1. Carrying an anchor affixed to your D-rings or horn to drop in the event of an emergency.

    2. Keeping a shot of 5 cc's of Ace in your saddlebags

    3. Taking vaulting lessons so that you can do an emergency dismount with ease before you hit the highway

    4. Riding your horse harnessed to something twice his weight that doesn't go fast, like a particularly lethargic Clydesdale

    5. Taking some f*cking riding lessons so that you can get results without torturing your poor horse!

    *shakes head and walks away, muttering*

    http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭convert


    Believe it or not, I've actually seen worse bits than this in tack shops at the horse show....

    That said, if a horse is broken properly, there's no need for any bit other than a snaffle, even for showing. That, and a rider who has been taught how to ride properly with a light hand....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 704 ✭✭✭Lobelia Overhill


    urgh no!


  • Posts: 5,589 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    convert wrote: »
    Believe it or not, I've actually seen worse bits than this in tack shops at the horse show....

    That said, if a horse is broken properly, there's no need for any bit other than a snaffle, even for showing. That, and a rider who has been taught how to ride properly with a light hand....

    May I ask what???

    Interesting though, I was in a riding school the other day and I saw a 3 ring bit on the lowest level being used in a beginners class..

    That surprised me!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭needadvice


    It puts me in mind immediately of a waterford snaffle which I hate and a gag gone crazy and Zaraba I'm quivering at the thought of a beginner in a gag some riding school they'd need some explanation.:eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,260 ✭✭✭✭Borderfox


    I ride my Horse is a snaffle, another girl rides him at the weekend in a Pelham and I hate the site of the thing. I would agree with Convert regards the light hand


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 Eadaoin_


    Why does she ride him in a Pelham when you can ride him in a snaffle? I also agree with Convert, And have only ever rode with a snaffle!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭convert


    While I normally ride in a snaffle with a cavesson noseband, there are times when I ride in a pelham (with 2 reins - not with the 'D'). Mostly it's for showing, but sometimes I use it for flatwork schooling in place of 'draw' reins, which I absolutely hate. I'm lucky that I have a very light hand, so there's no fear of me swinging out of the horse's mouth or making it 'hard', but in the wrong hands and for the wrong reasons severe bits can do so much harm.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭SmellySockies


    Uhh thats disgusting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 confoosed


    omg - who in hteir right minds wud put dat in a horses mouth. its awful. who cud thnki up with such a bit???????:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,260 ✭✭✭✭Borderfox


    Eadaoin_ wrote: »
    Why does she ride him in a Pelham when you can ride him in a snaffle? I also agree with Convert, And have only ever rode with a snaffle!

    She wouldnt be a physically strong as me!! :) but I do have a light hand..


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 eegeet


    No comment on the bit illustrated. Horrific. I would not see it as anything like a Waterford. The waterford is a flexible bit that creates an even pressure in the mouth - discouraging horse to "lean" on the bit.

    Re; the pelham, I only use with double reins as well. Roundings only confuse the action of the bit. Correctly used the pelham is not a severe bit. Likewise, I think that the continental gag (3 ring) should be used with two reins and preferably a leather curb strap.

    I actually think the snaffle bit can be severe in the wrong hands. It has severe nut-cracker action. I would rather see a stronger bit used with light hands than a mild bit, with rider using excess force.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    I know nothing about horses other than that one end bites and the other end kicks (:D), so could someone please explain what's so particularly bad about the bit shown above, as against the variety of other bits out there?

    I'm just curious; the bit pictured seems to elicit strong reactions from many posters here, and I'd genuinely like to know what's so bad about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,931 ✭✭✭togster


    Hi Rovi.

    It's the length of the side bars that are so severe. This bit acts in conjuction with the bridle to implement pressure on the horses poll i,i the area between the horses ears. Imagine it as a lever. The longer the side pieces of the bit the more pressure which will bw applies to the poll. Also the main bar itself is made of twisted wire which when used simultaneously with the side pieces can be severe. Ive seen much worse though. Its amazing what people will do


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    Hi togster.

    Thanks for that.

    I think I'd need some education in the mechanics of bits and bridles and all that stuff before I'll fully appreciate the details of this particular bit. :D

    Don't worry about it, I'm not THAT interested in the whole thing, I was just intrigued by the vehemence of the reactions to this one.


    I think I'll just stick with cattle, I understand them. :D


  • Posts: 5,589 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Rovi, this is a standard snaffle which would be used most people when riding.

    245455-loose-ring-bit.jpg

    This is the strongest bit I have ever used, and that was when I was child and not strong enough to halt the horse.

    210815A-gag-bit.jpg

    However, it is only legal (in pony club events, never used on since then) to use this bit as long as the reins are attached to a 'D Piece' which is a piece of leather that links the big ring and the bottom ring, thus reducing the pressure of the bit.

    The OP's bit has many more rings so you would really be yanking back on his mouth as well as the chain link which add further pressure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭Hobbidance


    explaination.jpg

    It's not too bad really leverage-wise, a 4-ring in my opinion is much worse on the lips, teeth and corner of the mouth. I still think that double twisted wires are far too extreme and for a good reason they're banned in most competitions. In the end it's all down to the horse and rider if a rider doesn't understand what's going in their horses mouth and how it works then they should really seek a more experienced opnion and perhaps read some information on bits.

    This is my FAV bit so far, I use it for competition, hunting and some dressage training. I honestly love this bit and any horse I've used it on have respnded well to it.
    hcfl.jpg
    Hanging Cheek French-Link
    The small bar from the cheek-bar ring to the rein ring gives a nice gentle bit of leverage for whenever my horse gets a little excited, upset or to just make neck through back streaching excersises easier. And I love french links to bits, they allow some play for the horse, reduces nut-cracker and helps prevent them pushing their tongue against the bit.

    I use an Eggbutt French-Link for schooling, hacking and anything else.

    EDIT: I can't help myself... I really just wanted to talk about my favourite bit lol


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 eegeet


    Hobbidance thanks for he explaination on the bit. I am not familiar with that bit - but I would love to know why you think it is not too bad. There must be extreme poll pressure? How are the reins used with this bit - single or double?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭Hobbidance


    Well first off, this bit is only not too bad, as I said, if the double wire was removed and replaced with a slow twist (if the horse really had a stealy mouth) and if the rider knew how to preperly use the bit. There's no point in having someone completely clueless yanking on something with that leverage. Also it's a bit you shouldn't ride with everyday, only in situations where a rider really needs control. In my opinion something like this should be used with double reins. Having a single rein wouldn't make it so much corrective as forceful. If this bit is used in any other way then yes, it is a really brutal bit.

    I personally prefer poll pressure as a corrective aid rather than going to extremes with curbs and jaw-breaking bits combined with flashes, standing martingales, draw reins, or side reins. Which is why I adore the Hanging Cheek. If the horse is carried himself a little to high or is resisting then some small play on the bit will gently correct instead of inflicting pain. Horses naturally move away from pressure. If you watch some videos of mares with foals when the mares direct the foals they do so with nudges and pushes. Also if a horse is upset or stressed then if you can get them to lower their head it removes tension through the neck and back and helps them relax. Also if a horse is concentrating on trying to control the bit by biting it, pushing his tongue against it or trying to get his tongue over it then a bit with some poll action will perhaps distract them slightly from focusing on the bit and will intterupt their train of thought therefore making it easier to try and get them to focus on your aids.

    You have to remember, a bit sitting in a horse mouth does next to zero damage, it's when someone pulls on that bit is when the damage is caused.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,522 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Horses naturally move away from pressure.

    No they dont. Lean against a horse and they'll lean against you. If they feel pressure e.g. from a halter when tied up, they will continue to pull until its broken rather than move into the pressure to relieve it.

    We train horses to move away from pressure but it does not come naturally to them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭Hobbidance


    fits wrote: »
    No they dont. Lean against a horse and they'll lean against you. If they feel pressure e.g. from a halter when tied up, they will continue to pull until its broken rather than move into the pressure to relieve it.

    We train horses to move away from pressure but it does not come naturally to them.

    Thanks for brining this up fits I assumed someone would because whenever I say this alot of people always say. "But when I push against my horse and ask him to move over he just pushes me over."

    Horses leaning against you are displaying a dominant, bullying pressence. Basically they don't respect you so they think you should move away from them and not the other way around. A horse that respects you and your presence in the stable will move away if you nudge them over it can even be done by body language a wave of a hand etc. It's purely a frame of mind.
    If you watch a herd in a field, mares dont lean on their foals. They nudge or nip them. Same with the alpha male/female. If they want another horse to move out of their way first they'll use body language (a strong walk, drawn back nostrils, ears flat back) and if the horse doesn't move then they will nip them or threaten them. No horse leans against onther to get it to move away.
    If you lean against your horse you're not using what they understand to be dominant behaviour. All you're doing is pushing them, they're bigger and stronger so this wont make any difference.
    How ever if you tap them swifly to ask for them to move over they should understand this. If they've got a big dominant horse complex then they may not respond to a tap and a small pinch (imitating a nip) might grab their attention.
    Everyone who takes on a horse as a companion need to understand that if they want to co-exist with a horse and have a good working relationship where the horse accepts you are the leader and in return has a place in your herd, knows where he stands and is happier for it. It's the same thing with dogs. If you want a balanced happy dog then you need to assume leadership. Not expect them to think you're the leader just becuase you're bigger. Similar with horses. Just because you're smaller does not mean you cannot be a leader. Has anyone here witnessed a small shetland bullying a larger horse and that horse moving away? Its because the shetland takes leadership and the bigger horse is less domininat and accepts the tiny pony as leader.
    If you're not going to assume this leadership on the ground then it transfers into when you ride. The horse will try and take advantages when ever they can to show their dominiance. A good example of this are school ponies. They know when there's a weaker member who doesn't take control, example a beginner rider or a really passive rider who just lets the horse take control. Most cheeky ponies (who haven't been completely drained of what it means to be a horse) will take advantage and do as they please. Then again when a domininant rider gets on who is in control they immediately change into a different animal because they know that the rider is the domininant one.
    If you're completely passive to you're horse on the ground and only feel in control when riding then you should really think about making some changes to try and enforce yourself. I don't mean striking your horse but being calm and assertive, when there is bad behaviour correct it with a sharp nudge or a pinch. Domninant horse don't allow others to invade their space, step on them, bite them, push them. So neither should any horse owner. You just create conflict between yourself and your horse otherwise because there will always be a power struggle.

    I hope this helps to make some people think about their relationship with their horses so they can become more balanced. :)

    On the other hand I had a similar problem with my ISH and his halter whenever I left him tied up. It's purely bad behaviour on his part I doubt he was trained properly on a halter and was allowed to get away with very boisterous behaviour as a youngster and now knows that if he pulls long and hard enough whatever's holding him will release and he'll be able to run away and go join his friends as it only seems to happen when he's tied on his own. It is something that he got away with far too long and when I got him I gradually tried to teach him that it wasn't going to be acceptable. It's gotten to the point where I can tie him alone to groom him, wash him etc. However if I leave him alone for more than five minutes then he'll simply snap the twine and walk back into his stable, He no longer runs away. I'm hoping as he gets older he'll grow out of it but I believe it's always going to be something he knows he can do. He no longer misbehaves in hand though which is wonderful as he's a big boy and really needed to learn respect otherwise he could hurt someone.

    I see where you were coming from fits with the fact that yes horses do push people around and misbehave on halters but those are the learnt behaviours. Not the other way around. If you think long enough you'll find the truth to my words. How do you teach a young foal to walk on a halter? By pushing gently from behind with your arm around his quaters and with a rope around it's neck for direction and to stop it bolting from your touch. Even from as young as a few days old a foal will move away from you when you nudge it or direct it with your hands (as long as they not looking for you to scratch them) It's what they learn from human interaction then on that makes the difference.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,522 ✭✭✭✭fits


    If horses naturally moved away from pressure, young horses would not break their necks when tied up for the first time. (part of breaking in some countries) They would feel the pressure on their poll and relieve it, or move away from it and slacken the rope, but no, they panic and pull and pull and injure themselves.

    This behaviour has precious little to do with dominance. Any young untrained horse will resist and lean if you ask them to move over. Part of training a horse is to get them to move away from pressure, on the ground and when you're on board.

    So I'll have to respectfully disagree with a lot of what you've posted there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,553 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    That bit shouldnt be let near a horses mouth:eek:

    If ya cant control a horse and feel you need to take those meassures, sell the horse to someone who can control it without that bit.

    Disgraceful:mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭Hobbidance


    fits wrote: »
    If horses naturally moved away from pressure, young horses would not break their necks when tied up for the first time. (part of breaking in some countries) They would feel the pressure on their poll and relieve it, or move away from it and slacken the rope, but no, they panic and pull and pull and injure themselves.

    This behaviour has precious little to do with dominance. Any young untrained horse will resist and lean if you ask them to move over. Part of training a horse is to get them to move away from pressure, on the ground and when you're on board.

    So I'll have to respectfully disagree with a lot of what you've posted there.

    I get what you're trying to say fits but tying up a young horse who doesn't understand whats going on is stupid in itself. They're not born with halters they don't know what it means when they're suddenly latched onto a wall and unable to move. Anyone who ties up such a horse without a piece of cheap piece of twine so such incident of neck breaking never happens shouldn't own a horse let alone a young inexperienced horse. I have also seen such horses being broken and those horses are wild, untouched animals, lashed to trees/thick posts and that's the way those people have been doing it for years and they may never change. However here in the modern world where we know there's no need for such brutality we can do things better. There's a difference between a handled horse learning the halter properly and a wild horse blind with fear flipping onto it's back and snapping it's neck. Those horses are trying to escape the pressure and the people and get back to their herd They try gallop away from the poll only to have their heads yanked back to it they dance circles around the poles trying to get away and when nothing works there's only fighting against the rope left and there's so much going through their heads that they don't notice when the ropes cut into their skin. I've seen videos of it and the men breaking them think they're the bee's knees and it breaks my heart.

    I'm not talking about panicing, out of their mind horses. They are an entirely different subject.

    My 3 year old who has been handled all her life (was never haltered except for a rope around her neck to guide her to a stable when she was young) just started learning how to walk in hand and whenever she moves to close to me I nudge her side and she moves over. I've never had to spend time to train her to move away from me, she has always done so. She knows that I have my space and she stays out of it until I say it's ok.

    What do you do when you ask a horse to move away from you? Do you place a hand on the horse and try to push it over? If so then it's likely thats why you find resistance. Small taps, sharp nuges, or for the thick skinned, stubborn horse, some pinches would be far more effective (combined with a vocal command can make it easier when training horse for leg yeilding). In my experience anyway. I understand that everyone has their own methods and ways of thinking but I've delt with so many horses and this approach has not failed me yet it's quick and effective. Also when it comes to leg yeilding they respond faster to a quick nudge in their side and it comes together quite nicely.
    Applying pressure doesn't mean you have to lean against a horse or try and crush their ribs with your legs. They have skin and nerves like the rest of us, even those ponies that people consider to be lazy and you have to boot them into the gut to get a half-hearted trot aren't that way because they're numb. They can feel flies on their coats so I'm sure they can feel the gentlest of taps. It's because they've learnt they don't have to do anything unless it hurts for them not to and when no one is going to show them any better they'll stay that way and perhaps get worse. It's the same with horses who people say have a dead mouth. There's no such thing. They've just learnt that if they dont grab the bit then it'll hurt less when the rider yanks them in the mouth or they just haven't been taught how to respond to a bit.

    I'm not telling you you're wrong, you are right. Horses push against you when you lean on them mostly because people have used them as something to lean on them and have chided them when they moved. So they learn to stand against them. I lean on my own horses when I'm tried or when I'm pulling on a boot, they don't very much appreciate it but if I have a hand on their wither or neck they'll usually stand there. The only time my horses lean on me is when they're getting a scrath or a groom.

    I'm not trying to convert you to my way of thinking but just trying to express my own opion and thoughts. :)


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