New apartment - Advice needed

Boberto

Hi guys,

So i'm interested in buying an apartment in the City Centre. A 2 bed on the top floor is going for about 330 (in the particular development that i viewed). The Estate Agent easily dropped this by 30k however i still believe that 300 is waaaay too much.

Here's the deal:
Kitchen is fitted (Washing machine, Dishwasher, Fridge, Cooker)
Apartments comes with wooden laminates, carpets and blinds
Car park space is included

Still way too expensive IMO... Thoughts? Should i scream for a lower price?

General starting prices for nice apartments in CC are in and around 300k. Could someone advise if apartment prices have come down a lot in City Centre in recent months? I'm a first time buyer so would like to gauge the difference.

Any advice is appreciated

subway

maybe post the development etc for people to give more advice.
my advice is that 330k is around 8.5 times the average salary and unemployment is risng fast.

you need to ask yourself why this apartment is aimed at poeple on 80k per year.
it would want to be around 2000sq ft

prices wil drop to affordable levels or lower.
this aparmtnet will be less that 200k / 150k

Boberto

Developments i've been looking at:
Canon Hall, Bakers Yard, Phoenix Park Racecourse, Castleforbes Square

Do you truly believe these will fall by 50%?

JuliusCaesar

jeez you make us work for your info!
Bakers Yard - NCR, Two-bed units with 64-71sq m (685-760sq ft) are priced from €350,000 in May 2008
so now going for 300K. The appliances etc worth a few grand, call it 3.5K. How much is a parking space worth? How much are management fees?

The worth of an apartment is its value to you.

Personally, I'd stay away from apartments: 1. with the prices going down, a house in a good location is livable in for longer (important if neg equity becomes an issue - you need to sell to get a bigger place) 2. I believe a lot of apartment blocks will be the slums of the future. Many are jerrybuilt with bad soundproofing and people are dodging management fees.

You can get a house the same distance from the CC for less than 300K - with room to extend later.

bobbiw

I wouldnt buy anything in Ireland at the moment. Everything is falling in price, you might get a good deal in a couple of years.

the apartments you are looking at will be at least half that in 12 months. Ive seen houses drop from 370 to 270 in less than 12 months.

This is very likely to speed up as more people are laid off and taxes go up (they kind of have to in order to pay unemployment).

Also bear in mind that people who bought their houses for 50k and found them at the height being worth 1m, will be more willing to sell them for 300k when they are upgrading to the 1.2m home that will be worth 400k.

The only think I would consider in a oldish style house in Donnybrook or Ballsbridge (not ringsend) and even then I would not pay more than 100k.

gurramok

Oi, leave Ringsend alone!

OP answered their own question, 300 is way too much, try bidding 230k and see what the agent/developer thinks.

Its a buyer market where you pull the strings, no rush.

bobbysands81

There are folks posting here that have no knowledge at all of the rudimets of supply and demand.

We need 60k houses built a year at the mo.

We built 51k last year.

This figure will drop to 35k in 2009 and even less in 2010 and a similar level again in 2011.

We have an overhang of 40k units that are built but not sold (surprisingly only 10k of these are in Dublin) and probably about the same number again half built (but some of these will be factored into completions over the next year or two.)

There is no doubt that prices will fall further before they pick up but if the banks start to lend again and folks feel that the bottom of the market is close then the market will pick up and prices will stop falling (I am not saying that they will rise). There ARE bargains out there, people will always pay top premium for some apartments/houses and whether folks like it or not prices will rise again as in the next 12-18 months supply will be killed off but demand will be back again.

If anyone sees a house for sale in Ballsbridge/Donnybrook for 100k then snap it up, it will make you a millionaire.

JuliusCaesar makes some valid points, bid what it's worth to you. Remember when buying an apartment though that they don't hold their value and arent worth as much as a house UNLESS it has some great selling point (huge roof terrace, proximity to City Centre etc...) Apartments are much harder to sell than houses but a top floor apartment should always sell... at a realistic price.

If you're after a house you will find some great bargains in City Centre locations especially around the East Wall area.

AARRRGH

Boberto wrote: »

Do you truly believe these will fall by 50%?

Yes. Ireland has only begun its downward spiral.

Forgetting how overpriced those apartments are, do you really want to be trapped in this country for another 30 years? Could get kinda depressing...

gurramok

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There are folks posting here that have no knowledge at all of the rudimets of supply and demand.

Yes agreed, there are.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

We need 60k houses built a year at the mo.

Silly assumption based on air.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

We built 51k last year.

This figure will drop to 35k in 2009 and even less in 2010 and a similar level again in 2011.

We have an overhang of 40k units that are built but not sold (surprisingly only 10k of these are in Dublin) and probably about the same number again half built (but some of these will be factored into completions over the next year or two.)

Without tackling your stats, factor in the bubble empties which are sold for years.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There is no doubt that prices will fall further before they pick up but if the banks start to lend again and folks feel that the bottom of the market is close then the market will pick up and prices will stop falling (I am not saying that they will rise). There ARE bargains out there, people will always pay top premium for some apartments/houses and whether folks like it or not prices will rise again as in the next 12-18 months supply will be killed off but demand will be back again.

Recession kills your analysis on demand, this recession is going to last for years in Ireland.

For the 5th time asking on boards, where are these bargains?:rolleyes:

bobbysands81 wrote: »

If anyone sees a house for sale in Ballsbridge/Donnybrook for 100k then snap it up, it will make you a millionaire.

Join the queue

bobbysands81 wrote: »

JuliusCaesar makes some valid points, bid what it's worth to you. Remember when buying an apartment though that they don't hold their value and arent worth as much as a house UNLESS it has some great selling point (huge roof terrace, proximity to City Centre etc...) Apartments are much harder to sell than houses but a top floor apartment should always sell... at a realistic price.

Agree to most of this, watch out for sky high mgt fee, nearly 2.5k to 3k in Longboat Quay for a 3bed as an example of good location apts.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

If you're after a house you will find some great bargains in City Centre locations especially around the East Wall area.

Without getting into an area slagging match, East Wall has had problems recently, did you hear?
For the 6th time asking on boards, where are these bargains(dodgeville don't count)?:rolleyes:

ntlbell

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There ARE bargains out there, people will always pay top premium for some apartments/houses and whether folks like it or not prices will rise again as in the next 12-18 months supply will be killed off but demand will be back again.

why would we need 60k houses built a year when he have firstly a massive overhang and people are leaving the country in their droves?

can you show me one of these bargains?

how about a nice 3 bedroom house in Dublin city that can be easily afforded with a 10% deposit based on 15-20 year mortgage that be obtained by someone on the average industrial wage by 3-4x salary?

if you find one today

I'll buy it tomorrow.

bobbiw

Its sad that in Ireland people are so stupid about property despite having a bibble for the last 10 years.

the price of a house doesnt have to be 3 times your salary. If I make 200k a year I can easily afford a million euro home.

If I make 5k a year then 15k home is difficult. Basing what a home should be priced at on your income in amature to say the least.

Ireland has the potential to be hit hardest by this global recession, it doesnt make anything, produce anything and is at the mercy of american investment.

IF all the US investment leaves the US you can expect to find 20k apartments in dublin city center.

Becasue of the boom year people are stupid, look at dublin bus, taxi drivers, or some dip s$%t who thinks they got a bargain by getting a 2 bed in swords for 400k.

I said it before but the fact that Ireland is more expensive that Santa monica in California is a joke.

ntlbell

bobbiw wrote: »

Its sad that in Ireland people are so stupid about property despite having a bibble for the last 10 years.

the price of a house doesnt have to be 3 times your salary. If I make 200k a year I can easily afford a million euro home.

If I make 5k a year then 15k home is difficult. Basing what a home should be priced at on your income in amature to say the least.

Ireland has the potential to be hit hardest by this global recession, it doesnt make anything, produce anything and is at the mercy of american investment.

IF all the US investment leaves the US you can expect to find 20k apartments in dublin city center.

Becasue of the boom year people are stupid, look at dublin bus, taxi drivers, or some dip s$%t who thinks they got a bargain by getting a 2 bed in swords for 400k.

I said it before but the fact that Ireland is more expensive that Santa monica in California is a joke.

I am sad and stupid and an amateur so I use 3-4X's salary as a good starting point.

Now instead of insulting people can you use your professional, intelligent and creative insight into Ireland's property market and show us a nice 3bed room home that the average person on an average salary could afford in Dublin city?

Cheers.

bobbiw

An average person shouldnt afford a house, they should rent.

Its a stupid Irish idea that everyone has some sort of right to own property if they make 50k a year that is not true.

In most countries in the world people have to rent becasue they cannot afford to buy.

Now I honestly beleive that prices in Ireland will drop a lot. I think at a minimum you are looking at an average of 50% accross the board.

But, and this is a big but, the average person will not be getting one, there are going to be massive lay offs, and if you have a job you will be lucky.

Ireland is in a very big mess at the moment and in truth cannot save itself. Its unlikely the US will help, most people are going to the north for retail and europe is annoyed with ireland over the lisbon treaty.

I personaly dont think prices will rise on Irish property and especialy dublin property again, I know it sounds strange for those who grew up with the Celtic Tiger. Ireland has never experienced a recession before it was just poor.

And this is not a recession, this is a collapse.

GeeNorm

ntlbell wrote: »

why would we need 60k houses built a year when he have firstly a massive overhang and people are leaving the country in their droves?

can you show me one of these bargains?

how about a nice 3 bedroom house in Dublin city that can be easily afforded with a 10% deposit based on 15-20 year mortgage that be obtained by someone on the average industrial wage by 3-4x salary?

if you find one today

I'll buy it tomorrow.

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?search=1&s[cc_id]=ct1&s[a_id]=pc15&s[mnp]=&s[mxp]=300000&s[bd_no]=&s[search_type]=sale&s[furn]=&s[refreshmap]=1&limit=10&search_type=sale&id=418383

4bed for 250k in Churchtown/nutgrove
=20k deposit (8%) + 3 k for legals etc
For FTB, no stamp and repayment of 1,096 per month (after tax relief)

QED

ntlbell

bobbiw wrote: »

An average person shouldnt afford a house, they should rent.

Its a stupid Irish idea that everyone has some sort of right to own property if they make 50k a year that is not true.

In most countries in the world people have to rent becasue they cannot afford to buy.

Now I honestly beleive that prices in Ireland will drop a lot. I think at a minimum you are looking at an average of 50% accross the board.

But, and this is a big but, the average person will not be getting one, there are going to be massive lay offs, and if you have a job you will be lucky.

Ireland is in a very big mess at the moment and in truth cannot save itself. Its unlikely the US will help, most people are going to the north for retail and europe is annoyed with ireland over the lisbon treaty.

I personaly dont think prices will rise on Irish property and especialy dublin property again, I know it sounds strange for those who grew up with the Celtic Tiger. Ireland has never experienced a recession before it was just poor.

And this is not a recession, this is a collapse.

I never said everyone has the right to own a home

but if your earning 35k+ surely the average 3 bed house should be obtainable if you so wish? maybe if the country has reasonable laws for tenants so they could n't be thrown out of their home Willy nilly people might be more inclined to rent.

I think you've been watching too much prime time tbh.

ntlbell

GeeNorm wrote: »

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?search=1&s[cc_id]=ct1&s[a_id]=pc15&s[mnp]=&s[mxp]=300000&s[bd_no]=&s[search_type]=sale&s[furn]=&s[refreshmap]=1&limit=10&search_type=sale&id=418383

4bed for 250k in Churchtown/nutgrove
=20k deposit (8%) + 3 k for legals etc
For FTB, no stamp and repayment of 1,096 per month (after tax relief)

QED

average ind wage 32-35k

my criteria 3-4 X avg salary

so based on my criteria your maximum would be 140k

You're only out by 110k

how many years did you base the mortgage over?

GeeNorm

ntlbell wrote: »

average ind wage 32-35k

my criteria 3-4 X avg salary

so based on my criteria your maximum would be 140k

You're only out by 110k

how many years did you base the mortgage over?

Arry go on. would you not include your partners wages too?
20 year term at 2.5%

bobbiw

there is no way that if you make 35k a year you should be able to afford a house, maybe a one bed apartment.

I dont watch prime time, I live between Dublin, London and LA.

Ive been watching this stuff for years out of interest.

Ireland is in the very first stages of a crash, this crash will continue for the next 5-10 years. It may not recover, people failed to see the boom for what it was.

Its been reported than no american company would locate to Ireland if they had to today.

What does that mean, it means exit strategy, "can we move to poland"

dont think for a second that every one of them is considering it.

ntlbell

GeeNorm wrote: »

Arry go on. would you not include your partners wages too?
20 year term at 2.5%

nope.

not unless the couple were never planning on having kids.

did you stress test the rate against 2/3 hikes

I think the best can you can get at the moment is aib fixed for 10 at 4.x

GeeNorm

ntlbell wrote: »

nope.

not unless the couple were never planning on having kids.

did you stress test the rate against 2/3 hikes

I think the best can you can get at the moment is aib fixed for 10 at 4.x

What? you're not wriggling out of this on technicalities. You agreed to buy the house tomorrow and I've already rang Castle Estates and they've agreed to split commission with me. I did put in a lot of effort and feel I have earned it.

I'm printing this thread and calling my solicitor.

Boberto

AARRRGH wrote: »

Yes. Ireland has only begun its downward spiral.

Forgetting how overpriced those apartments are, do you really want to be trapped in this country for another 30 years? Could get kinda depressing...

You make a good point lol

gurramok

GeeNorm wrote: »

What? you're not wriggling out of this on technicalities. You agreed to buy the house tomorrow and I've already rang Castle Estates and they've agreed to split commission with me. I did put in a lot of effort and feel I have earned it.

I'm printing this thread and calling my solicitor.

Technicalities that would lead ntlbell to financial and personal ruin within a couple of years so yeh, its hugely important.
Nice one for finding that one, our first 'bargain' example which was reduced this month from 315k(propertybee found this). Its a hint houses in the area ain't selling for a 65k drop. I dunno anything about Churchtown so i assume it ain't dodgeville, perhaps another poster knows?

Pity you ruined your post with a 1yr cheapo interest rate to pay back the mortgage over 20 years.

You and i know that a 20yr fixed rate is not obtainable in this country. 2.5% is a temporary rate, it will probably double if not triple when the Eurozone economy recovers(note Eurozone, not Ireland) hence those repayments will skyrocket and cripple ntlbell.

ntlbell

GeeNorm wrote: »

What? you're not wriggling out of this on technicalities. You agreed to buy the house tomorrow and I've already rang Castle Estates and they've agreed to split commission with me. I did put in a lot of effort and feel I have earned it.

I'm printing this thread and calling my solicitor.

I asked for a property i could by 3 bed house in dublin 3 x avg industrial wage

if i was on the avg ind i would be earning 32-35k depending on who you talk to

now the maximum based on the requirements was 115k-140k

you post a home for 250k which would be over 8 times the wage i specified

now your answer to this is well get someone else to buy it with you doubling my income?

and claim i'm trying to wriggle out of it?

gurramok

I also missed your criteria ntlbell, thought you were also buying with a partner, i see your othe post above now.
You might as well get the chequebook out and bid for that house tomorrow, just take a mortgage out over 40yrs at 2.5%..LOL

ntlbell

gurramok wrote: »

I also missed your criteria ntlbell, thought you were also buying with a partner, i see your othe post above now.
You might as well get the chequebook out and bid for that house tomorrow, just take a mortgage out over 40yrs at 2.5%..LOL

I'm nearing the end of one mortgage the last thing I want to do is take one out till I'm 70 :eek:

but had he found one I would have kept my word and purchased it tomorrow

subway

bobbiw wrote: »

there is no way that if you make 35k a year you should be able to afford a house.

leaving aside every other point that has been made on this thread.
if you honestly believe this, who is going to buy all the houses? Ben Dunne and Bill Cullen?

there is an oversupply of houses and they will drop to levels where the majority of people will be able to afford them, ie, average and below average wages

manta356

That house in churchtown was on over a year ago at €415,000,so will soon be at 50% of that

the_syco

GeeNorm wrote: »

http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?search=1&s[cc_id]=ct1&s[a_id]=pc15&s[mnp]=&s[mxp]=300000&s[bd_no]=&s[search_type]=sale&s[furn]=&s[refreshmap]=1&limit=10&search_type=sale&id=418383

Please use the Daft Property Shortcode: www.daft.ie/1418383

Personally, wouldn't touch it. I'd go for at least a semi-detached, or maybe a house on it's own, as I know that you can only insulate noise so much from outside, but noise will still travel along floorboards and walls to the next house.

At the moment, there is a huge demand for places to live, but not at the prices that they are being sold at. I have gone through Adamstown a few times, and I've seen what looks like entire apartment blocks being empty. Until all the developers go bust, those prices won't drop very fast.