Counter-Strike to Public Sector Demonstration

DizzyOC

On Thursday 26th of February the Public Sector Unions are staging a protest rally that will involve some 13,000 public servants who cannot loose their jobs. nor can they lose their gold-plated pensions. However, they are unhappy that now, for the first time, they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension. I, on the other hand, am unemployed and live on €204p.w.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0218/pensions.html

They fully intend to bring much of the country to a halt through strike action thus stopping ordinary people from getting to work, receiving health care or in some cases, simply causing a loss of income, through disruption, that could be the clincher in finishing off a small business and forcing their friends and fellow country-men into the rapidly growing numbers of the unemployed - a fate impossible for the public service to suffer.

The damage already done to the rest of Ireland and the damage that is still to come is unprecedented and monumental. It is for this reason that i am compelled to try and organize a counter-demonstration to the public sector. No longer can we afford to pay their inflated salaries, no longer can we afford to pay for their inflated, unrealistic pension-privileges and fund their irrational expenses.

Nor can we let them incorporate special needs children into their argument. or try to unite "all workers" so they can march on without taking a hit while private sector workers suffer pay-cuts or lay-offs. Dell and Waterford Crystal are not related problems and nor should they be used to garner support by the unions for the rejection of the public sector pension levy.

So on the 26th of February at Midday, i propose a guerilla counter demonstration, gathering at Dáil Éireann to let the public sector know how the rest of the country feels. Will this demonstration have your support? Can i count on you to attend? A peaceful, but forceful demonstration to bring sight to those who cannot see.

Best Regards,

D. O'Ceallaigh

Akrasia

DizzyOC wrote: »

On Thursday 26th of February the Public Sector Unions are staging a protest rally that will involve some 13,000 public servants who cannot loose their jobs. nor can they lose their gold-plated pensions. However, they are unhappy that now, for the first time, they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension. I, on the other hand, am unemployed and live on €204p.w.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0218/pensions.htm

They fully intend to bring much of the country to a halt through strike action thus stopping ordinary people from getting to work, receiving health care or in some cases, simply causing a loss of income, through disruption, that could be the clincher in finishing off a small business and forcing their friends and fellow country-men into the rapidly growing numbers of the unemployed - a fate impossible for the public service to suffer.

The damage already done to the rest of Ireland and the damage that is still to come is unprecedented and monumental. It is for this reason that i am compelled to try and organize a counter-demonstration to the public sector. No longer can we afford to pay their inflated salaries, no longer can we afford to pay for their inflated, unrealistic pension-privileges and fund their irrational expenses.

Nor can we let them incorporate special needs children into their argument. or try to unite "all workers" so they can march on without taking a hit while private sector workers suffer pay-cuts or lay-offs. Dell and Waterford Crystal are not related problems and nor should they be used to garner support by the unions for the rejection of the public sector pension levy.

So on the 26th of February at Midday, i propose a guerilla counter demonstration, gathering at Dáil Éireann to let the public sector know how the rest of the country feels. Will this demonstration have your support? Can i count on you to attend? A peaceful, but forceful demonstration to bring sight to those who cannot see.

Best Regards,

D. O'Ceallaigh

Shouldn't you be at work on a thursday at midday? are you telling people to leave their jobs to protest at the disruption another strike is causing?

Dante

Would your strike not disrupt the county even more?

ParkRunner

As far as I know it is only the CPSU who have called for a strike on the 26th. These are the lowest paid group in the public sector who are being hit with in my opinion a disproportionate levy. If you want to counter strike 13,000 lowly paid civil servants I wish you luck!

OhNoYouDidn't

To paraphrase.

DizzyOC wrote: »

Things didn't work out for me the way I wanted, I'm on the dole, I want everyone dragged down to my level.

Best Regards,

D. O'Ceallaigh

gerry28

DizzyOC

Many of the low paid public servants earn so little their resulting pension would be less than the state pension (non con) they would get if they never worked a day in their life.
So why would they contribute up to 14% of their income for sweet FA????

mumhaabu

Divide and Conquer a typical FF ploy. We need unity from Conservatives like myself to radical hippy leftists, Unity is needed in this crisis and I would happily march in a Gay Pride March or with Communists against Fianna Fail. All that is needed is a way to channel everyones problems into Universal hatred of this Government and force it out using any means. Peaceful Protest would be the favoured but we are fast approaching the point where a military coup should not be ruled out. Thousands of people should storm the Dail and stay there and give us our Emerald Revolution. Over one hundred thousand took to the streets over Irish Ferries and the Bokenstein Directive in 2005.

Fight not each other but this Government. I am not a fan of Unions but they are the only people who can organise people power and a General strike across all sectors is needed to force FF out of office.

ixoy

gerry28 wrote: »

Many of the low paid public servants earn so little their resulting pension would be less than the state pension they would get if they never worked a day in their life.

Source for this please - show me figures because I don't believe it.

Void

gerry28 wrote: »

DizzyOC

Many of the low paid public servants earn so little their resulting pension would be less than the state pension they would get if they never worked a day in their life.
So why would they contribute up to 14% of their income for sweet FA????

I was under the impression that one needs to have made 10 years of PRSI contributions to qualify for State Pension.

Information here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/older-and-retired-people/oap_contributory/#introduction

Am I right in guessing that you also think immigrants automatically qualify for the dole too?

gerry28

The point is its a raw deal for low paid public servants. So they are not going to sit back and be trampled on.

CleverUsername

Void wrote: »

I was under the impression that one needs to have made 10 years of PRSI contributions to qualify for State Pension.

Information here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/older-and-retired-people/oap_contributory/#introduction

Am I right in guessing that you also think immigrants automatically qualify for the dole too?

You are thinking of the Contributory State Pension.

Even if you haven't paid PRSI you can get the Non Contributory State Pension

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/older-and-retired-people/oap_non_contributory

Void

gerry28 wrote: »

The point is its a raw deal for low paid public servants. So they are not going to sit back and be trampled on.

Excuse us if we do not take your word for it. Please post some links to back up your assertions.

gerry28

Many of the public servants who job share and earn less than €20,000 pa.
If they are approaching retirement age shortly their entitlement would be less than the state non con pension

serfboard

DizzyOC wrote: »

Will this demonstration have your support?

No.

DizzyOC wrote: »

Can i count on you to attend?

No.

Here you are proposing worker attacking worker (or non-worker) while those whose earnings are 2 million a year consider that to be "substantially less" than what they earned last year - this from people whose risky lending behaviour and short-term bonus-seeking got us into this fine mess.

Yes, there are certain workers in the public sector getting far too much as well - Brian Cowen (who earns more than Barack Obama), Patrick Neary, Roddy Collins, any of the political hacks on the boards of the semi-states. But as other people have pointed out, when you have a government that does not exclude those at the bottom from this cutback, and in fact disproportionately favours those at the top (as they have done for the last 10 years) then you can see why the country is so angry, and why your suggested protest should, and will, fail.

gerry28

Here you are proposing worker attacking worker (or non-worker)

This seems tho be the Irish way. During the famine and during british rule the Irish turned on each other and their masters looked on and laughed. The same is happening again... ordinary worker against ordinary worker, all while the big boys laugh!

SEPT 23 1989

we are all in this together against a corrupt FF and their corrupt bankers,people see through this public v private smokescreen

Dannyboy83

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

To paraphrase.

FPMSL:D:D


To the OP, I disagree with you point of view, but I commend you for standing up and taking action.
If only the rest of the country were like you.

Don't let the Irish begrudgers hold you down.

DizzyOC

This is not about public versus private, it is not about envy or bitterness, but in a recession, everything has to get cut back. I'm trying to highlight the fact that if the public sector doesn't cede territory then we'll all be in even more trouble. the average civil servant is already on a higher income than the average private worker and with deflation kicking in, not only does their money stay the same but will actually gain in value! They need to have their incomes benchmarked again (it works more than just one way). The total wage bill right now is crippling the government and will only do so more in the future as the certain decline continues.

In order to try and maintain confidence internationally we need to be seen to be tough and act with purpose and this move is exactly that. to try and force a u-turn is to do the opposite. so the government, while being criticized for non-action are actually starting to make decisions that are tough but are being undermined. they need all of our support, tough as it will be.

Our country is on its knees right now, and if the IMF should step in in at any point what do you think will happen? i'm amazed at the fact that so few people seem to fully understand the ramifications here.

How many people joining the lines in dole offices daily would jump at the chance to have what these protected workers already have? they'd probably jump to have half of it too. i would. but for the future of our nation this levy is peanuts. absolutely peanuts.

ParkRunner

I cant see how the public sector is gaining money with no prosepect of the implementation of the agreed pay increase (despite the banks and ESB paying this), no prospect of promotion, the implementation the income levy as everyone has had, the implementation of the pension levy and the impending increase in income tax.

DizzyOC

EF wrote: »

I cant see how the public sector is gaining money with no prosepect of the implementation of the agreed pay increase (despite the banks and ESB paying this), no prospect of promotion, the implementation the income levy as everyone has had, the implementation of the pension levy and the impending increase in income tax.

In deflationary times (which we entered into in january), the cost of living drops. wages in the private sector are falling too so an equalibrium is had.

But if the public sector pay remains the same then, as prices fall, it's essentially a pay-rise. add to this that there is a smaller number of employed private sector workers paying taxes than there were and so many that still are working are taking cuts in pay/hours, how can it be possible to support public pay any longer? let alone generate enough tax to dig us out of this hole.

achtungbarry

DizzyOC wrote: »

On Thursday 26th of February the Public Sector Unions are staging a protest rally that will involve some 13,000 public servants who cannot loose their jobs. nor can they lose their gold-plated pensions. However, they are unhappy that now, for the first time, they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension. I, on the other hand, am unemployed and live on €204p.w.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0218/pensions.html

They fully intend to bring much of the country to a halt through strike action thus stopping ordinary people from getting to work, receiving health care or in some cases, simply causing a loss of income, through disruption, that could be the clincher in finishing off a small business and forcing their friends and fellow country-men into the rapidly growing numbers of the unemployed - a fate impossible for the public service to suffer.

The damage already done to the rest of Ireland and the damage that is still to come is unprecedented and monumental. It is for this reason that i am compelled to try and organize a counter-demonstration to the public sector. No longer can we afford to pay their inflated salaries, no longer can we afford to pay for their inflated, unrealistic pension-privileges and fund their irrational expenses.

Nor can we let them incorporate special needs children into their argument. or try to unite "all workers" so they can march on without taking a hit while private sector workers suffer pay-cuts or lay-offs. Dell and Waterford Crystal are not related problems and nor should they be used to garner support by the unions for the rejection of the public sector pension levy.

So on the 26th of February at Midday, i propose a guerilla counter demonstration, gathering at Dáil Éireann to let the public sector know how the rest of the country feels. Will this demonstration have your support? Can i count on you to attend? A peaceful, but forceful demonstration to bring sight to those who cannot see.

Best Regards,

D. O'Ceallaigh

I've seen some utter rubbish posted here before but this takes the biscuit.

I am a low paid public sector worker. I earn about 26k. I will be down about 200 euro a month (myself and wife together)

And here's the thing, I am more than prepared to swallow that medecine and again some if neccessary because yes I am am fully aware that I have relatively safe job (for now) and good pension conditions. I am not however rolling in money, far from it but I am quite prepared to do my bit.

I do however make no apologies for being a public sector worker with a relatively safe job. When times were good and friends all around me were making a mint in the private sector and I could have too, I made a choice. I made a choice not to think short or medium term but long term. I made the choice to take a lower paid public service job precisely for the job security and pension benefits it offered in the long term. I could have made a lot (and I mean a lot) more in the private sector. I chose not to. I chose between short term gain and long term security and I make no apologies for that. I applied for and had my choice of lucrative offers from private companies. I made my choice.


I do not however want to see anybody in the private sector lose jobs and I will march alongside private sector workers in defence of their jobs especially those on low wages (I am fully aware that not everyone in the private sector is making a mint so please do not assume the same of the public sector). The excuse for a government we have have being drumming this up into an us vs them for a while now. "Divide and conquer" as another poster said. What will this acheive ? really, what ? Will it fix our economy ?

Let me make it clear that like many people in this country I am disgusted at those overpaid fat arsed do nothings that exist in all parts of the public sector. They give the ones who do the real work at the bottom a bad name and I believe that they should be idenified and cleared out without delay along with a few of the lazy do nothings who sadly exist in the lower levels. I have no sympathy for these people. They tar me with their brush.

Again let me repeat I am quite prepared to take a hit and even another one and have my increments frozen until whenever. I know and appreciate my luck to have a public service job but will not feel guilty about it. I made my choice.

My only problem with the deal is that there is no balance. Why don't we go after and prosecute criminal bank officials ? Why don't we bring a 48% tax band for eanings over 100,000 ? Why don't we clear ot the crap in the upper rungs of the public service ? why don't we give the people a chance to give their opinion of our government in an election ?

This is a time to unite not be divided. OP you can march against me all you want. I will march beside you.

DizzyOC wrote: »

How many people joining the lines in dole offices daily would jump at the chance to have what these protected workers already have?

Dizzy, I did jump at the chance a few years ago when times were good and that is why I make no apologies. I went from 37 k down to 24 k at the time in exchange for this security. Again I made a choice.

joolsveer

I am self employed for the last number of years. I left a job in the public service. I would not jump at the chance to go back. If there are people out there who want to join the public service let them go through the same recruitment as other candidates. I don't support either private or public service members who bay for blood.

ParkRunner

DizzyOC wrote: »

In deflationary times (which we entered into in january), the cost of living drops. wages in the private sector are falling too so an equalibrium is had.

But if the public sector pay remains the same then, as prices fall, it's essentially a pay-rise. add to this that there is a smaller number of employed private sector workers paying taxes than there were and so many that still are working are taking cuts in pay/hours, how can it be possible to support public pay any longer? let alone generate enough tax to dig us out of this hole.

So what do you suggest? Add to the numbers in the social wefare queue? Decrease the amount of money available in the economy by cutting the pay of those at the lower end of the civil service (as it is those who will be protesting). Also give them the standard 12 months before they lose their home?
I would support your protest if you were directing your attention to the higher paid members of our society rather than those at the very bottom!

DizzyOC

EF wrote: »

I would support your protest if you were directing your attention to the higher paid members of our society rather than those at the very bottom!

That is exactly why it is the lower paid workers being wheeled out! The unions are playing a game here, pulling at the heart strings to win favor! It's cynical, it's a dirty game, a smoke-screen!

None of this helps the bigger picture. The government is not stepping on the little man, it's making a move for every man!

thomasj

The problem was that at at the time there was overinflated house prices, overinflated costs of goods and overinflated wages. As the cost of living in this country was so high, the only way people could buy overinflated property was by taking out overinflated mortgages.

As the wages, costs of goods, and house values correct themselves the mortgage value doesn't change and as a result of lower wages, job losses etc people will realise they cant afford to pay it back and the house is repossessed and returned to the completly worthless to them at the moment. Other than begging banks to renegotiate mortgages this mess is just going to get bigger., this is the tip of the iceberg and unfortunately this will apply to everyone private and public.

To say that this demonstration is gonna cause damage is not gonna matter
the damage is done.

A few notes for the op-

RE Pensions:
Civil servants pre 95 get the same state pension as the rest of the country ie they dont contribute
Civil servants post 95 pay 6% of their salary for the pension everyone is giving out about.

Also all this hasnt even got barely a mention seen as though everyone is private vs public.

If this levy was fair there would be no problems. The reliefs that senior ciivil servants and ministers get are wrong where the money is needed here, there should be no reliefs for anyone against this levy. as a result not enough can be got out of this levy(This may sound mad but i dont think it goes far enough)

Irrespective of that i have heard so many people (public and private) say the private v public debate is a scam to divert away from the scandals coming out of the banking sector

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/overhaul-of-td-perks-wont-save-money-for-taxpayers-1608315.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lenihan-pay-plea-falls-on-deaf-ears-as-just-a-dozen-agree-to-cut-1624951.html

Its also rumoured that the TDS pay cut was dropped in favour of the pension levy. I dont know if its true but if it is its a disgrace.

gerry28

DizzyOC

You mentioned earlier about survivng on €204 per week. I'm a public servant on €28000 pa. After I pay my mortgage, car loan and maintanence payments I am left with less than €200 per week for bills, food, insurances, petrol, clothes and all other unforseen expenses. I can't afford to lose another €30 a week on this levy. This is the reality for many low paid public servants.
Of course its disastrous for the many that are now unemployed. But what about those in the private sector who are still in employment. Why can't they be asked to pay too.

nhughes100

DizzyOC wrote: »

On Thursday 26th of February the Public Sector Unions are staging a protest rally that will involve some 13,000 public servants who cannot loose their jobs. nor can they lose their gold-plated pensions. However, they are unhappy that now, for the first time, they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension. I, on the other hand, am unemployed and live on €204p.w. /quote ]

Althought I think you're trolling I'll respond, you're quite incorrect on the line "for the first time ever they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension" Prior to the levy I was paying over 200 euro a month into the pension, now I'll be paying double that. Every public and civil servant pays into the pension fund and you have no choice in the matter. The fact that this penalises lower paid workers much more so then higher paid seems to have passed you by.

Try getting some facts and then some people might support you.

Sconsey

Barry, I agree with most of what you are saying, good post with good points but two comments....

achtungbarry wrote: »

*snip*
When times were good and friends all around me were making a mint in the private sector and I could have too, I made a choice.

I think that's a general misconception, I have always worked in private sector and never really made a mint (during the boom or before it). Many public servents think that private workers made out like bandits, not true, some did but the majority did not. Works both ways, I used to think PS workers were all overpaid but now realise that some are, most probably are not.

achtungbarry wrote: »

*snip*
Dizzy, I did jump at the chance a few years ago when times were good and that is why I make no apologies. I went from 37 k down to 24 k at the time in exchange for this security. Again I made a choice.

Sorry but I don't buy that, I doubt you are comparing like with like there. I am guessing you went from one job with higher responsibilities/requirements to a lower one.

DizzyOC

gerry28 wrote: »

DizzyOC

You mentioned earlier about survivng on €204 per week. I'm a public servant on €28000 pa. After I pay my mortgage, car loan and maintanence payments I am left with less than €200 per week for bills, food, insurances, petrol, clothes and all other unforseen expenses. I can't afford to lose another €30 a week on this levy. This is the reality for many low paid public servants.
Of course its disastrous for the many that are now unemployed. But what about those in the private sector who are still in employment. Why can't they be asked to pay too.

you have a mortgage? i can't afford one.
you have a car? i can't afford one. well, i own a motorbike but it's off the road as i can't afford to get insurance. you're on €28000? i'm on about €10000 pa for everything. your position sounds pretty rosy to me!

what do you get €28k for doing?

this is not about envy. it is about our nation, i have said that before. we are on the brink. people don't understand that.

nhughes100

DizzyOC wrote: »

you have a mortgage? i can't afford one.
you have a car? i can't afford one. well, i own a motorbike but it's off the road as i can't afford to get insurance. you're on €28000? i'm on about €10000 pa for everything. your position sounds pretty rosy to me!

what do you get €28k for doing?

this is not about envy. it is about our nation, i have said that before. we are on the brink. people don't understand that.

Not knowing the guy but I'd imagine he gets 28 grand for doing a job that he applied for, has qualifications and experience for and did an open interview for that was open to every citizen of the EU to apply for, you on the other hand get 10 grand for nothing. No wonder the country is on the brink.

turgon

Looks like this thread has just descended into the usual fight. Does anyoody know if there are any counter protest happening? In particular around Cork? Or is the ICTU march centered on Dublin alone?