Counter-Strike to Public Sector Demonstration

irish_bob

Partizan wrote: »

I smell a rat here. OP you should be venting your spleen at this corrupt and gombeen government who are bailing out the bankers and developers to the detriment of every man woman and child not the middle and lower paid public sector workers who are expected to carry the can. We will be forced to make further cutbacks and you can rest assured that unemployed and private sector will be brought into the firing line.

The whole thing reminds me of a certain saying from Pastor Niemueller in Nazi Germany, circa 60 odd years ago.

A classic example of divide and conquer.

the only rart running around forums at the moment is the straw man arguement put forward by public servants that the goverment is using us in the private sector as glove puppets in the alleged campaign of villification against the angelic public sector
its a very clever dirty trick , it is also extremly patronising to be told you only believe the public sector have it too good because tony o reilly or brian lennehan said so , ive been dealing with one area of the public sector in particular for years and i dont need the sindo to tell me how inneficent they are
ive said it a number of times , i believe every public sector worker in the country must have attended some form of tuition camp in the past few weeks , there they were briefed by jack o connor , david begg etc on what slogans to use when confronted with the issue of pensions , pay etc

WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS
WHAT ABOUT THE BANKS,
another FEW bannerS you can add to that list is DIVIDE AND CONQUER , SETTING WORKER AGAINST WORKER , PRIVATE AGAINST PUBLIC

its all bull**** and a sneaky way to divert attention away from the core issue , public servants in ireland are the highest paid in europe , they owe that title to a weak goverment over influenced by unions and a property boom which is an ex parrott

im also sick and tired of hearing that they are marching againts the innequities of the pension levy , thats the unions fault for not protecting the less well paid , that issue can be solved in house , the consultants , judges and top grade civil servants obviously have more clout with david begg and co than the firemen or postmen but that is as i say the unions fault , not the goverment

NickCarraway

Another "I hate the public sector" thread. Sigh.

The governments pension levy is being introduced in a ham fisted fashion. They have been told this. No-one is saying there should be no levy, but it needs to be reworked.

The government have refused to listen, have refused to consider their initial plan may need modification.

They got plenty of notice that the public sector unions were planning to strike and they did nothing.

Reduce the levy at the lower end of the pay spectrum, increase it at the higher end. Simple.

Myself and a bunch of spider monkeys could do a better job of running this country. Actually forget me, just the monkeys. All hail your simian overlords!

ixoy

NickCarraway wrote: »

No-one is saying there should be no levy, but it needs to be reworked.

The thing is some are pretty much saying that. They don't want to pay any levy (naturally) but don't see why they should pay anything at all because *tired mantra* "We didn't cause this, the banks did".
What's worse is that these are strong union people who have a voice that can be heard and they're the ones stirring. We've got plenty here who recognise the problems - yourself, BroomBurner - and who want a more equitable re-adjustment of the levy (which is understandable and fairly reasonable too) but some in the unions are adamant about giving nothing up and spew forth some of the catch phrases above and they're the sort who are going to make this even more difficult.

Dodge

Examples of these? I've only heard unions speak about the distribution of the levy

BroomBurner

Now don't quote me on this, because it's heresay, but there are two main threads of thought from the unions.

First, ICTU, as the umbrella union group, is trying to get a more equitable approach to the pension levy, one that is weighted heavier towards the higher paid and less for the lower paid. ICTU are also trying to get all the unions to strike at the same time to try to get this working and to get government to re-enter talks and try to push the Social Solidarity Pact. In general, they do not wish to pursue strike action if possible, but will use it as a last resort.

Secondly, there are individual unions that are not waiting for ICTU to move. They are trying to make themselves heard loud and clear. Some of these individual unions are fighting on the belief that the pension levy should be scrapped altogether. Not all of them, though. And not all of their members would support that either.

The whole thing is so complicated that people need to understand that you just can not generalise about people's lives and happenings.

Dodge

Well the CPSU is definitely acting outside of ICTU but even they are calling for a fairer distribution (well as far as i can make out...)

CPSU are the only union striking next thursday

ixoy

Dodge wrote: »

Well the CPSU is definitely acting outside of ICTU but even they are calling for a fairer distribution (well as far as i can make out...)

It was a CPSU member I was talking about actually. Don't want to say much more than that but let's say they were very vocal about their opinion to people.

Dodge

ixoy wrote: »

It was a CPSU member I was talking about actually. Don't want to say much more than that but let's say they were very vocal about their opinion to people.

Well member is very different from union leadership. I've read most of the CPSU notices etc and while they're more militant than the others, they're not looking for anything unreasonable

TRSJ

If the government is to get any respect back from the public it needs to go in hard and cut pay by 10% or more (in certain sections) of the public sector and stop rolling over to the unions. It needs to be fair and balanced like the rest of us in the workforce who on average earn less and don't have job security anywhere near people in public sector. I would march against this public sector moaning but nobody in the private sector can organise it seeing as the unions have all but deserted the workers in the private sector at this stage.

TRSJ

BroomBurner wrote: »

Now don't quote me on this, because it's heresay, but there are two main threads of thought from the unions.

ooops I just did

Keith186

DizzyOC wrote: »

On Thursday 26th of February the Public Sector Unions are staging a protest rally that will involve some 13,000 public servants who cannot loose their jobs. nor can they lose their gold-plated pensions. However, they are unhappy that now, for the first time, they are being asked to make a contribution for that pension. I, on the other hand, am unemployed and live on €204p.w.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0218/pensions.html

They fully intend to bring much of the country to a halt through strike action thus stopping ordinary people from getting to work, receiving health care or in some cases, simply causing a loss of income, through disruption, that could be the clincher in finishing off a small business and forcing their friends and fellow country-men into the rapidly growing numbers of the unemployed - a fate impossible for the public service to suffer.

The damage already done to the rest of Ireland and the damage that is still to come is unprecedented and monumental. It is for this reason that i am compelled to try and organize a counter-demonstration to the public sector. No longer can we afford to pay their inflated salaries, no longer can we afford to pay for their inflated, unrealistic pension-privileges and fund their irrational expenses.

Nor can we let them incorporate special needs children into their argument. or try to unite "all workers" so they can march on without taking a hit while private sector workers suffer pay-cuts or lay-offs. Dell and Waterford Crystal are not related problems and nor should they be used to garner support by the unions for the rejection of the public sector pension levy.

So on the 26th of February at Midday, i propose a guerilla counter demonstration, gathering at Dáil Éireann to let the public sector know how the rest of the country feels. Will this demonstration have your support? Can i count on you to attend? A peaceful, but forceful demonstration to bring sight to those who cannot see.

Best Regards,

D. O'Ceallaigh

Fairplay for having the balls to speak out even if it is only an internet forum.

I think there's too many civil servants employed and under worked. Handy for them if they get the job but it's a waste of your money. One of my best friends (who's in th Civil Service) used to boast how he's be chatting away in work to the birds all day and then about 16/18 months ago asked me if I wanted any PC speakers. I said why, he told me they were throwing out all the furniture because if they did not spend (waste) their budget they'd get less of a budget to spend (waste) next year.

He asked me if I wanted the PC Speakers as that's all he could fit in his bag, the rest was thrown out even though it was in good condition and modern. He was fairly disgusted with the waste of money at the time and he's more disgusted now with the cost cutting levy. It's not sustainable to have carry on like this coming from the top level of civil service departments to try and defend their budget so they can waste as much the next year. It stems down from poor management in my opinion.

There's a lot of departments there to offer advice but are powerless to do anything about anything and I don't think paying a whole department for advice is not cost effective. A small grant per annum to each citizen who pays tax would be far more effective in terms of action and cost.

Unfortunately I won't be marching as I have to work although I'd love the day off, especially after the Madrid Liverpool game!

NewDubliner

From today's Indo:

Massive pension levy protest will bring city to a standstill

Anne-Marie Walsh

Saturday February 21 2009

DUBLIN city centre will come to a standstill this afternoon as tens of thousands of angry workers protest at the Government's handling of the economic crisis.

More distortion from the Indo. The march is about all government policy, but the Indo sees only one thing.

bobbbb

DizzyOC wrote: »

This is not about public versus private, it is not about envy or bitterness, but in a recession, everything has to get cut back. I'm trying to highlight the fact that if the public sector doesn't cede territory then we'll all be in even more trouble. the average civil servant is already on a higher income than the average private worker and with deflation kicking in, not only does their money stay the same but will actually gain in value! They need to have their incomes benchmarked again (it works more than just one way). The total wage bill right now is crippling the government and will only do so more in the future as the certain decline continues.

In order to try and maintain confidence internationally we need to be seen to be tough and act with purpose and this move is exactly that. to try and force a u-turn is to do the opposite. so the government, while being criticized for non-action are actually starting to make decisions that are tough but are being undermined. they need all of our support, tough as it will be.

Our country is on its knees right now, and if the IMF should step in in at any point what do you think will happen? i'm amazed at the fact that so few people seem to fully understand the ramifications here.

How many people joining the lines in dole offices daily would jump at the chance to have what these protected workers already have? they'd probably jump to have half of it too. i would. but for the future of our nation this levy is peanuts. absolutely peanuts.

Are you from FF or IBEC? Or is this a joint effort ?

I think we should cut social welfare. Obviously those on the dole have too much time on their hands to be spending on the internet trying to organize protests against those actually earning their keep. If you are not being paid, you are not contributing to the economy. Why should you get paid over €200 a week for signing your name?

dresden8

DizzyOC wrote: »

In order to try and maintain confidence internationally we need to be seen to be tough and act with purpose and this move is exactly that. to try and force a u-turn is to do the opposite. so the government, while being criticized for non-action are actually starting to make decisions that are tough but are being undermined. they need all of our support, tough as it will be.

There is no international confidence in Ireland right now because they can see that FF, the bankers and the golden circle types have this country sewn up. If you were Hans in Dusseldorf with 300 million to invest, would you give it to Brian Cowen, the Financial Regulator and Anglo Irish bank?

DizzyOC wrote: »

How many people joining the lines in dole offices daily would jump at the chance to have what these protected workers already have? they'd probably jump to have half of it too. i would. but for the future of our nation this levy is peanuts. absolutely peanuts.

Those people joining the dole queues now had their chance to take those public sector jobs. In the early noughties it was difficult to get people to take Clerical Officer jobs because of the low pay. Those people now joining the dole queues wouldn't piss on those jobs then.

Well, the risk takers and wealth makers took their risks and made their wealth. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Don't blame me when it blows up in your face.

Dodge

Keith186 wrote: »

I think there's too many civil servants employed and under worked. Handy for them if they get the job but it's a waste of your money. One of my best friends (who's in th Civil Service) used to boast how he's be chatting away in work to the birds all day and then about 16/18 months ago asked me if I wanted any PC speakers. I said why, he told me they were throwing out all the furniture because if they did not spend (waste) their budget they'd get less of a budget to spend (waste) next year

You won't find one single public servant who doesn't think there's waste in the civil service, but how does that equate to the people being overpaid and underworked? I know plenty of civil servats who work their balls off too, for very little reward. I think the mass generalisations on this thread are ridiculous

quickg

There is an awful lot of junk being written on this thread. I think there are a few salent points that people need to be reminded of.

(1) Most people on the dole don't want to be there, the reason they dont want to be there is generally not because of money, but because of a person's inherent need to work and feel useful to society. The poster's on this thread intimating that that the country is in the state its in because the unemployed get €200 a week for doing nothing, is just plain insulting and also inflammatory.

(2) I spent 4 years in College and am still doing further part-time courses, my college years were some of the best years of my life and its very disengenous of people to characterise their "6 years of college" as hardship and those college years somehow entitled them to job. Get real!

(3) Since when was €26k-28k classed as low paid? A low paid worker is someone working at the checkout in a supermarket of on €10 an hour, which is about €20k or thereaboouts.

(4) Lastly but most imortantly, some basic economics here, Its the private sector that ultimately generates the wealth and makes exchequer returns in the form of VAT, PRSI, PAYE etc. Its the SME's of this world under the hammer of the system whom collect this for the exchequer. If the Private Sector fail, where do people think the money comes from to fund the day to day running of the country and public sector workers? Wake up please!

hughs

quickg wrote: »

There is an awful lot of junk being written on this thread. I think there are a few salent points that people need to be reminded of.

(1) Most people on the dole don't want to be there, the reason they dont want to be there is generally not because of money, but because of a person's inherent need to work and feel useful to society. The poster's on this thread intimating that that the country is in the state its in because the unemployed get €200 a week for doing nothing, is just plain insulting and also inflammatory.

(2) I spent 4 years in College and am still doing further part-time courses, my college years were some of the best years of my life and its very disengenous of people to characterise their "6 years of college" as hardship and those college years somehow entitled them to job. Get real!

(3) Since when was €26k-28k classed as low paid? A low paid worker is someone working at the checkout in a supermarket of on €10 an hour, which is about €20k or thereaboouts.

(4) Lastly but most imortantly, some basic economics here, Its the private sector that ultimately generates the wealth and makes exchequer returns in the form of VAT, PRSI, PAYE etc. Its the SME's of this world under the hammer of the system whom collect this for the exchequer. If the Private Sector fail, where do people think the money comes from to fund the day to day running of the country and public sector workers? Wake up please!

Good post, especially point 4.

Dodge

But it's not one or the other, is it?

Oh and public servants pay PAYE and PRSI too

bobbbb

never mind

thebigcheese22

The OP is calling for a guerilla protest that is peaceful...did ya check up the meaning of either term in the dictionary?!? Coz they're not exactly in tandem with each other...

Kinda tells you the intelligence level of some people calling for practically all the public service to be fired and for teachers, gardai etc to be given massive pay cuts.... :rolleyes:

lostexpectation

cos public sector workers don't pay vat!? /i was wtf'ing about quickg's post

damo9

lostexpectation wrote: »

cos public sector workers don't pay vat

Im currently unemployed after spending 5 years "up skilling" in college, theres an awful lot of rubish being spewed on this thread from both sides.

The above quote is a prime example. I can only guess that the poster is refering to private sector employers that must pay vat and not the hundreds of thouasands of private sector EMPLOYEES.The fact that v.a.t. is mentioned in this thread says alot about the "knowledge" of some people in this little island.

I have no sympathy for those employees earning €30 - €40k ++++ in the public sector having to pay more for a pension, But alot of people here are forgeting the huge numbers of clerical staff, road sweepers etc, who despite being public servants get no-where near this amount.

The ordinary public/private sector employee did not cause this crisis. The fat cats on BOTH sides did with the supervision of financial regulators and wastefull government ministers. SO COULD BOTH SIDES STOP ATTACKING EACH OTHER PLEASE!!

Dodge

quickg wrote: »

(3) Since when was €26k-28k classed as low paid?

Since houses cost 300k plus

Wnder who's fault that is?

Harolds+

The damage already done to the rest of Ireland and the damage that is still to come is unprecedented and monumental. It is for this reason that i am compelled to try and organize a counter-demonstration to the public sector. No longer can we afford to pay their inflated salaries, no longer can we afford to pay for their inflated, unrealistic pension-privileges and fund their irrational expenses.

I'm sorry you are on the dole but it looks like you are fed the same crap the media is spinning and that is to punish hard workers in this country who were bystanders during the celtic tiger : low paid civil servants.

The Sunday Independent, The Irish Independent and the Evening Herald is owned by a tax exile, SIR Tony O'Reilly. They are cherrypicking what news goes out to you. RTÉ was feeding us a North Korean Style statement saying that the Govt is reducing a "substantial" amount of money from their expenses - 10%. What a load of crap!

13,000 of these people on strike earn on average 28,000 (gross) a year. They are the low paid and they have families and mortgages. Why should they suffer for working hard and paying taxes like everybody else? There was a massive party in the 21st Century and these workers weren't invited but now they are asking us to foot the bill for it!

You should be focusing on the people who made it big and who are not willing to share the burden i.e. developers, journalists, Bankers, Directors, senior managers, investors, savers etc.

The people on strike on Thursday earn ****e money. Stop reading the above papers and ask questions about why we are bailing out a Bank out of tax payers to fund elite people's lifestyle. The above rag papers wont tell you that!

nhughes100

And where were all the trolls including the O.P. yesterday? Sorry but I couldn't really spot the counter protest amongst the 100,000 + private, public and laid off workers who demonstrated magnificently yesterday???????????

OhNoYouDidn't

quickg wrote: »

(4) Lastly but most imortantly, some basic economics here, Its the private sector that ultimately generates the wealth and makes exchequer returns in the form of VAT, PRSI, PAYE etc. Its the SME's of this world under the hammer of the system whom collect this for the exchequer. If the Private Sector fail, where do people think the money comes from to fund the day to day running of the country and public sector workers? Wake up please!

if?

ParkRunner

One of the biggest barriers to recovery of our economy in my opinion is the fact that the most important purchase a person makes in their life, a family home, was grossly overvalued in the past decade.

Many first time buyers are stuck in these crippling contracts for life effectively and are in negative equity. While wages are now inevitably going to fall in both the public and private sectors, it will be virtually impossible for the cost of labour to be as competitive as required when the cost of paying off the debt of a grossly inflated asset well into the future will not be reduced (apart from variations in interest rates for those not on a fixed rate).

The asking price for a 3 bed house in a half decent area of Dublin is still 8-9 times the industrial wage which is pretty incredible in recessionary times. How can we become competitive when people have to pay in many instances extremely large 40 year mortgages and these houses cannot be sold?

Any assistance through social welfare means would be very difficult given the state of the public finances, and may require tax increases making Ireland less competitive still.

On a seperate note I thought the turnout yesterday was magnificent. In particular the emergence services leading the march were fantastic. It was great to see public and private sector workers marching side by side and those who have lost their jobs or at serious risk of losing their jobs (Waterford Crystal and SR Technics employees) given a special platform.

ixoy

Harolds+ wrote: »

I'm sorry you are on the dole but it looks like you are fed the same crap the media is spinning and that is to punish hard workers in this country who were bystanders during the celtic tiger : low paid civil servants.

Interesting, and mis-guiding, use of the word "punish" there. You seem to imply the levy is a punitive spiteful measure, rather than an unfortunate economic necessity.

The Sunday Independent, The Irish Independent and the Evening Herald is owned by a tax exile, SIR Tony O'Reilly. They are cherrypicking what news goes out to you.

LOL - It's amusing that you're going on about people believing the media spin, and yet you come on and give us the union spin!

Why should they suffer for working hard and paying taxes like everybody else?

Why should anyone suffer? Why should the workers of Waterford Crystal or SR Technics or one of many private sector companies who have no protection? Answer: Because in many cases, their employer, made some bad decisions that could not work long term. This includes the public sector who have an employer - the government.

There was a massive party in the 21st Century and these workers weren't invited but now they are asking us to foot the bill for it!

Oh *groan* Straight out of the union mouths - "We never saw the Celtic Tiger!" Must've imagined bench marking. Must've imagined the ERSI reports. Must also have imagined the fact that pay should be lower in return for pensions (yes still good even with the levy!) and security of position (yes still mostly secure, despite a few temporary contractors let go).

You are also aware that many in the private sector weren't at this "massive party" right? Another myth perpetuated by unions is that we are all rolling in cash - simply not true. Those neighbours who people saw buying the latest car or whatnot were often buying (perhaps foolishly) off of credit and not massive salaries.

You should be focusing on the people who made it big and who are not willing to share the burden i.e. developers, journalists, Bankers, Directors, senior managers, investors, savers etc.

Journalists?! And savers - you want people who saved their money to be punished?!

The people on strike on Thursday earn ****e money. Stop reading the above papers and ask questions about why we are bailing out a Bank out of tax payers to fund elite people's lifestyle. The above rag papers wont tell you that!

Some are on crap money, some aren't on that bad either depending on their years of service (wouldn't call an SO on a salary of 43k on crap money for example).

Also the banks aren't just being bailed out to support elite people's lifestyles - they're being bailed out so people can get loans again for their business for example and to help free up capital to get funds flowing for the economy. And it is a loan...

mikemac

Harolds+ wrote: »

You should be focusing on the people who made it big and who are not willing to share the burden i.e. developers, journalists, Bankers, Directors, senior managers, investors, savers etc.

What's your problem with savers?
They pay Deposit Interest Retention Tax (DIRT) you know.

NewDubliner

ixoy wrote: »

Also the banks aren't just being bailed out to support elite people's lifestyles - they're being bailed out so people can get loans again for their business for example and to help free up capital to get funds flowing for the economy. And it is a loan...

Isn't the bail out compensating for the cost of forgiving the banks' debtors (particularly property speculators) who are failing to repay the money they owe?

Will they still be able to get government contracts after this?