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Laser Card Fruad - How did it happen?

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  • 19-02-2009 11:12pm
    #1
    Sonic_exyouth
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭


    A chairde,

    I posted about this before but it's gotten worse.

    I have an account with Permanent TSB. It is (or, rather, was) a current account, with no overdraft facility.

    On Monday at 3.57pm I was sat at my desk in work, but someone somehow managed to make a laser transaction on my account. My actual Laser card being in my pocket at all times. It was a Laser POS at "Vaughan Wine S" which is presumed at this stage to be the Vaughan Wine shop in Temple Bar.

    At 4.27 the following day (I again being at work with Laser card in my pocket) a further transaction occured from the same premises.. "Vaughan Wine S".
    These 2 transactions amounted to over €1,000.

    Later, at 8PM at Jaipur restaurant on Georges Street a further €84.80 was taken.

    That night I noticed the bad transactions, but the open 24 phone line was not open, and there was no specialised fraud line, or any staffed 24 hour phone line that I could see for TSB. There was an E-mail address where you are not allowed mention any account specifics :-|

    My Account had no overdraft facility, and had only €10 in it.

    I e-mailed them anyway, but no reply til the following morning.

    What I do not get it

    * How did the premises allow the transactions?
    ** Have the crims managed to clone the chips fom chip + Pins
    ** Do premises still allow verification by signature

    * How did the bank allow this to happen. Three seperate transactions, all bringing a non-overdraft account into the red
    The bank has given me 3 different reasons for this!

    The bank will refund me in around 8 weeks


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    #2
    Pythia
    Registered Users Posts: 7,469 ✭✭✭Pythia


    Although you don't have an overdraft, banks often give people 'tolerances', i.e. if you are a good customer and they think you're good for the money, they may allow you to go over your limit (in this case zero). It would not be something communicated to customers as they wouldn't want people to abuse it.


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    #3
    Sonic_exyouth
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Sonic_exyouth


    Pythia wrote: »
    Although you don't have an overdraft, banks often give people 'tolerances', i.e. if you are a good customer and they think you're good for the money, they may allow you to go over your limit (in this case zero). It would not be something communicated to customers as they wouldn't want people to abuse it.

    .. But the crims do


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    #4
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users Posts: 9,624 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    Those transaction are sort of unusual for a cloned card, usually they are untraceable tranactions for big ticket items that are easily sold on etc. Not going out for dinner!

    Silly question but was your account ever a joint account?

    I have had account with the same bank for 15 years and I always get paid into it and no way will a laser transaction go through when I go out of credit.

    I would ring the restaurant just out of curiosity, they should be interested to know what happened as they are going to lose the money, if they let somebody sign for the trans.

    This would put me off TSB. As bad as AIB is, I can always get through to at least 3 depts. 24hrs a day.


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    #5
    Sonic_exyouth
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Sonic_exyouth


    wmpdd3 wrote: »
    Those transaction are sort of unusual for a cloned card, usually they are untraceable tranactions for big ticket items that are easily sold on etc. Not going out for dinner!

    Silly question but was your account ever a joint account?

    I have had account with the same bank for 15 years and I always get paid into it and no way will a laser transaction go through when I go out of credit.

    I would ring the restaurant just out of curiosity, they should be interested to know what happened as they are going to lose the money, if they let somebody sign for the trans.

    This would put me off TSB. As bad as AIB is, I can always get through to at least 3 depts. 24hrs a day.

    Never a joint account.

    And I thought the same as you regarding a transaction not going through.. but it did.

    Are AIB really always staffed?


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    #6
    Thoie
    Registered Users Posts: 6,344 ✭✭✭Thoie


    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

    Are AIB really always staffed?

    I can't prove that they absolutely are, but anytime I've ever called, at all kinds of weird out of hours from a variety of countries, I've always got to talk to someone.


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    #7
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

    Are AIB really always staffed?
    Thoie wrote: »
    I can't prove that they absolutely are, but anytime I've ever called, at all kinds of weird out of hours from a variety of countries, I've always got to talk to someone.

    AIB always answer their 24 hour phone lines. But for some reason their 24 hour website usually goes down for maintance between 3am-6am Irish time


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    #8
    TequilaMockingBird
    Registered Users Posts: 4,392 ✭✭✭TequilaMockingBird


    Could they be online or by phone transactions? All they would need is your card number and expiry date then.


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    #9
    Sonic_exyouth
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Sonic_exyouth


    TequilaMockingBird wrote: »
    Could they be online or by phone transactions? All they would need is your card number and expiry date then.

    Well, the suspicion is that they were instore 'Cashback' transactions.

    If it was an online or phone transaction to a local shop and restaurant they would have to get items delivered.
    That would lead us straight to the retard.
    More likely, I'm told, the card was skimmed, made and then sold on to some muppet who's been living it up for two days at, apparently, Vaughan Wines' expense.


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    #10
    HarryD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 913 ✭✭✭HarryD


    Jezz, rough stuff..
    Any idea where yer card cudda been skimmed ?
    Where it left yer sight ?
    I didn't realise the merchant was liable in this case, I thought insurance companies picked up the tab.


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    #11
    Sonic_exyouth
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Sonic_exyouth


    HarryD wrote: »
    Jezz, rough stuff..
    Any idea where yer card cudda been skimmed ?
    Where it left yer sight ?
    I didn't realise the merchant was liable in this case, I thought insurance companies picked up the tab.

    Well, yeah, the insurance company insuring Vaughans (as I understand it)

    My *suspicion* is that it was the guy in a well known city-centre cinema - not the counter where you buy the tickets, rather where you buy the food (upstairs). Thats the only (brief, like two seconds) time when it left my sight. He took it to put it into the card reading machine before handing the machine to me


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    #12
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭eth0_


    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »
    Well, the suspicion is that they were instore 'Cashback' transactions.

    Isn't the limit on cashback just a few hundred euro (300 I think)? So that wouldn't explain the €1000 from the wine shop.


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    #13
    HarryD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 913 ✭✭✭HarryD


    Interesting.
    I know a guy who while working in a Dublin bar, was skimming cards,
    in order to pay back a debt to some Romanian guys.
    He eventually got caught by the Gardai fraud squad, and came clean.
    Has to pay back a bigger debt to the insurance companies now.
    The skimming device is very small, can fit into a pocket,
    so a card can easily be skimmed in a few seconds.

    I wonder how much investigation will go into this case.
    Surveilence cam's ..etc


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    #14
    Sonic_exyouth
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Sonic_exyouth


    eth0_ wrote: »
    Isn't the limit on cashback just a few hundred euro (300 I think)? So that wouldn't explain the €1000 from the wine shop.

    I thought it varied from shop to shop?

    And the €1,000 from Vaughans wine took place in two transactions, over two days - monday 16th and Tuesday 17th at around 4PM.


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    #15
    Sonic_exyouth
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Sonic_exyouth


    HarryD wrote: »
    Interesting.
    I know a guy who while working in a Dublin bar, was skimming cards,
    in order to pay back a debt to some Romanian guys.
    He eventually got caught by the Gardai fraud squad, and came clean.
    Has to pay back a bigger debt to the insurance companies now.
    The skimming device is very small, can fit into a pocket,
    so a card can easily be skimmed in a few seconds.

    I wonder how much investigation will go into this case.
    Surveilence cam's ..etc

    Well, the Gardai semmed pretty chuffed that I copped on to it so quickly, and that the places were verifiable.

    Some specialist investigator in Pearse street is on the case


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    #16
    darc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 677 ✭✭✭darc


    Good to see you explain it better than the original thread on the subject.

    Looks like the card was cloned, either at a cash point (did you try & get money out of a cash point and have problems?) or when you handed the card to someone.

    Permanent TSB have not migrated all their cards over to chip & pin, so this explains why a signature was accepted at the outlets. This will mean PTSB will bear the cost rather than the retailer.

    The scammers bought wine as this can be sold on (or drunk) quite easily.

    It may cause some inconvienence, but try & help the gardai as much as possible & it should lead to the scammer being caught & put away. - CCTV in both wine store & restaurant should be available & exact time of transaction should be a big help.


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    #17
    TequilaMockingBird
    Registered Users Posts: 4,392 ✭✭✭TequilaMockingBird


    Isn't the Indian Restaurant odd though? Surely they didn't sit and have a meal?


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    #18
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭eth0_


    TequilaMockingBird wrote: »
    Isn't the Indian Restaurant odd though? Surely they didn't sit and have a meal?

    Jaipur do takeaway.


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    #19
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »
    ** Have the crims managed to clone the chips fom chip + Pins

    The major advantage of Chip & Pin is that the card can no longer be cloned. Only the infomation on the mag stripe (which is basically the information embossed on the front of the card) can be cloned.

    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »
    * How did the premises allow the transactions?

    I can only assume that they don't operate chip readers and did a manual (signature) transaction.
    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »
    ** Do premises still allow verification by signature

    Seems odd this far on, but you'd have to assume so. I presume the banks have higher charges for merchants who haven't switched over to chip and pin yet.
    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »
    The bank will refund me in around 8 weeks

    Quite right too. IMO you shouldn't have to wait that long. The thieves have stolen the banks money, not yours.


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    #20
    Sonic_exyouth
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Sonic_exyouth


    dvpower wrote: »
    The major advantage of Chip & Pin is that the card can no longer be cloned. Only the infomation on the mag stripe (which is basically the information embossed on the front of the card) can be cloned.




    I can only assume that they don't operate chip readers and did a manual (signature) transaction.



    Seems odd this far on, but you'd have to assume so. I presume the banks have higher charges for merchants who haven't switched over to chip and pin yet.



    Quite right too. IMO you shouldn't have to wait that long. The thieves have stolen the banks money, not yours.

    So...
    If chip and Pin cannot be cloned.. then this *must* have been verified by Sig?


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    #21
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »
    So...
    If chip and Pin cannot be cloned.. then this *must* have been verified by Sig?

    But in reality, how many times have you had your signature verified when you have had to sign?

    Additionally if it was a cloned card, all they had to do was sign the back of the new card and bob's their uncle.


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