Taking Photography too seriously.....

AnimalRights

Went into a family friends house this morning and was greeted with "Have you heard of the news?"
Led into the sitting room and there was a coffin with one of the sons dead at 30 years of age....while I was in shock a few minutes later I was so tempted to blurt out "Do you want a photograph of him?"
I held back but will be bringing my Cam to the funeral/pub after which is tomorrow.....

Anyone else take their hobby a step too far?

sNarah

Oh... Not good!

No too far taking here, but I do see where you are coming from... I would probably have the same thought in mind if I was put into that situation... is bad isn't it????

Eirebear

AnimalRights wrote: »

Went into a family friends house this morning and was greeted with "Have you heard of the news?"
Led into the sitting room and there was a coffin with one of the sons dead at 30 years of age....while I was in shock a few minutes later I was so tempted to blurt out "Do you want a photograph of him?"
I held back but will be bringing my Cam to the funeral/pub after which is tomorrow.....

Anyone else take their hobby a step too far?

I am actually waiting (for want of a better word) on a call from an undertaker to do exactly this.

Seemingly in a lot of Eastern European countries it is the done thing to take a photo and send it to people who can't make the funeral.

A freind of my wife's is from Romania, one day a letter popped through the door and when my mrs opened it up she about freaked out.
The girl had sent us a picture of her uncle lying in his coffin!

Edit: Sorry to hear about your friend dude, 30FFS.

oshead

There have been a few threads over the last couple of years regarding this subject. I for one would never bring the camera to a funeral. Especially if the person is close to me. Who needs to see photos of themselves in a grief stricken mourning state. It seems disrespectful.

On the other hand, if you are on an assignment to cover some news worthy story maybe it is a little different.

Dave OS

Crispin

AnimalRights wrote: »

Went into a family friends house this morning and was greeted with "Have you heard of the news?"
Led into the sitting room and there was a coffin with one of the sons dead at 30 years of age....while I was in shock a few minutes later I was so tempted to blurt out "Do you want a photograph of him?"
I held back but will be bringing my Cam to the funeral/pub after which is tomorrow.....

Anyone else take their hobby a step too far?

Not sure I would want photographs of a dead friend once they were dead. photos from when they were alive maybe!

Not sure I have overstepped the mark with the hobby yet. although I did get some funny looks when I asked for a ball head for my birthday

Covey

My brother in Law is often asked to take photos of the dead. Again relatives in the states or what not.

Was reading an article just recently (can't find it now) about how funerals/wakes is becoming the "new" wedding" package.

However, someone known to me, think I'd banish that thought myself.

Sorry to hear about that though, far to young to die.

Dragan

AnimalRights wrote: »

Went into a family friends house this morning and was greeted with "Have you heard of the news?"
Led into the sitting room and there was a coffin with one of the sons dead at 30 years of age....while I was in shock a few minutes later I was so tempted to blurt out "Do you want a photograph of him?"
I held back but will be bringing my Cam to the funeral/pub after which is tomorrow.....

Anyone else take their hobby a step too far?

It all leads back to the ethics question AR, the "why?".

As far as i am currently concerned ( may change over the coure of my photographic journey and life ) if you see something happening, the only reason not to take a picture is because you can put down the camera and affect a positive change on what is going on. That abouts it.

If something happens, for bad or worse, it deserves to be recorded and people need to see it. It's all too easy for people to close there eyes to some of the things that happen in the world.

Latchy

Eirebear wrote: »

A freind of my wife's is from Romania, one day a letter popped through the door and when my mrs opened it up she about freaked out.
The girl had sent us a picture of her uncle lying in his coffin!

Imagine , you open the ESB bill ,then the credit card bill followed by the heating bill .Then when you think it cant get any worse you open a letter with a photo of a deceased family member/ friend .

Freaked out indeed . :eek:

Would'nt be out of place in a Monty Python /fr Ted sketch .:(

Phototoxin

Photographing the dead is fine... but funerals are different.

Anyway I always take photography seriously...



as you can tell!

Covey

Dragan wrote: »

As far as i am currently concerned ( may change over the coure of my photographic journey and life ) if you see something happening, the only reason not to take a picture is because you can put down the camera and affect a positive change on what is going on. That abouts it.

I know what you mean, but struggle with that constantly.

I'd agree with the positive change thing but personally would widen that considerably.

Danger to you or others - Would you continue shooting ? What if you're GF gets injured, worth it?

Unethical - Ethics are sometimes as strong a reason to not do something as laws. We all have our own interpretation of whats ethical, but does that include the subject as well. A lady lets her Burka fall away, would you take the shot to her distress?

Undue Distress to Subject - Does the subject not have a right to respect also? Would you go to extremes that if you were the subject you would object?

Maybe other things also.

Most of all though, we carried away a bit with our perception of ourselves and what we are as photographers. Lets face it, we're all amateur photographers (I include the pros on here in this sense also) who enjoy taking photographs and few if any of us have the ability to effect change through what we take. Our pics get shown to a handful and won't be effecting change or informing the world through publication.

Dragan

Good points Covey ( as always ) and i guess once again it comes down to that case by case, shot by shot element. You have that split second to make the rational argument with yourself and then act, or not.

For me, if i can do something which matches up to my own set of ethics and morals as a positive, then i will capture an image.

Just this week myself and my girlfriend had a conversation about possible shoots, projects and photo documentaries that i may like to do in the future, if my efforts and the possible rewards of those efforts get me into a position to do so. They all have an element of danger and personal risk, and she expressed the opinion that she would obviously be adverse to me putting my health and safety on the line. She knows me well enough to know that it's not something i always, or often, consider. I never have but she is very forgiving of that and simply reminds me when things might be dangerous, or foolish.

Her safety and happiness on the other hand are paramount to me. If it came down to getting the shot, but her being at risk, or even upset by my being there....I would not take the shot and i would leave.

It's important to me, as a photographer and as a person, that i never put anyone in a situation where they feel exploited, or taken advantage of but there is always the possibility that i may need to face up to accusations of just that in order to get my message across.

I'll only know what i will do in those situations when faced with them, everything up to that point is merely hyperbole.

With regard to how much change we can affect....you are spot on, right now i am just an amateur with a years effort under my belt. In 20 years time? Who knows. I am aiming for success and have no problem in saying so, i feel lots of people should say it, and feel it, and strive for it.

I am basically in the position to hope, and fear, that someday i really do need to make these decisions.

AnimalRights

Dragan wrote: »

It all leads back to the ethics question AR, the "why?".

I am early into this addictive hobby, I want to shoot everything, 100% hooked.

Latchy

There does'nt seem to be much of a moral arguement at all about photgraphing or filming anything these days . There will be 1000 other photographers waiting to get that ' shot' of the deceased or subject matter and wont give a second thought to the feelings of anybody .Remember The famous Zapruder film was only showing to the American public in 1973 due to it's gruesomeness followed not long after by hidious shots of the dead president on the mortury slab.These pictures were published all over the world .Elvis, Munroe ,Lennon and many others may not have liked the world to view them on their death beds either . Maybe

gloobag

AnimalRights wrote: »

I was so tempted to blurt out "Do you want a photograph of him?"
I held back but will be bringing my Cam to the funeral/pub after which is tomorrow.....

I'd be careful how you tread on that one man. Some people might view it as being slightly papparazzi-ish and may feel that you're trying to exploit their misery for your own gains. In which case you might find your expensive camera ends up in a million little pieces on the floor.

I'd be asking very politely before reaching for the camera. I know if someone started randomly snapping pics at any stage of a funeral/wake of someone close to me, I'd make sure that the camera ended up perfectly mounted to the photographer in question for some endoscopic like colon pics.

But hey, if the immediate family are cool with it, snap away.

Covey

AnimalRights wrote: »

I am early into this addictive hobby, I want to shoot everything, 100% hooked.

If your friends are happy for you to shoot the funeral/wake you don't have a dilemma.

If they don't ... basically you do.

I'm not offering any advise on that, but would be interested if scenario 2 is what happens and you decide to shoot .

AnimalRights

I'm bringing it with me and am hoping that they'll ask me to take a few......if not I will leave it in the bag.

Covey

Ever see John Minahin's pics of the dead in Athy?

pete4130

A good friend of mine had a good friend pass away a few years ago. Someone at the funeral/afters was taking pictures of everyone, documenting the day, one of the deceased good friends. Everyone wanted a copy of the photos to remember the day. It is a really tough decision. It's about knowing whats appropriate and intrusive.

Latchy

Somtimes at funerals people might only meet up with other family members / friends they havent seen in years ,so that's one good reason to capture the post funeral moements .I dont think most people would have a problem with that .

Valentia

There are people whose personality is such that they could snap away at a funeral and nobody would take offence. They have the "gift". Most people would be nervous and that would show, I think, and that would rub off on everybody.

Morally or ethically I see no problem. In documenting someone's life it has to be up there with a few other significant moments! It really has to do with people being comfortable with it and not some photographer imposing their opinion on people.

As for the afters, I have rarely been at a wedding that was as good as the afters of a funeral. They are usually something special.

LightningBolt

To be honest I'd be extremely uncomfortable taking photographs at a funeral. It's not the fact that the person is dead it's more so that it could anger a hell of a lot of people who in times of grieving may be more prone to acting irrational. Photography has the ability to capture a persons raw emotion, I wouldn't like to think that it's used to evoke that persons emotion.

4sb

I was at a funeral recently where the officiating priest, who was a close friend of the deceased, photographed on the doorsteps of the church after funeral mass. And he asked another friend to take photographs at the cremation service in Mount Jerome. I talked to the priest - I know him from a long time ago - and he said it was to give something to relatives and friends far away in Asia and America.

I am not sure that helps your dilemma, I don't know whether he took pictures of the deceased himself - but I didn't find it offensive at all.

Kenno90

why would you want a reminder of the death of him,
Don't bring it it's not the type of occasion to bring the camera

Eirebear

Kenno90 wrote: »

why would you want a reminder of the death of him,
Don't bring it it's not the type of occasion to bring the camera

It's not as black and white as that in the slightest.

Should we only capture the happy smiley things like rainbows and puppies and kittens then?

Chances are there will be people there who havn't met in a long time, emotions will be high, and rarely are people closer to each other than at funerals.

Only one person knows if its the "right thing" to do or not, and that is AR himself.

Dundhoone

AnimalRights wrote: »

Went into a family friends house this morning and was greeted with "Have you heard of the news?"
Led into the sitting room and there was a coffin with one of the sons dead at 30 years of age....while I was in shock a few minutes later I was so tempted to blurt out "Do you want a photograph of him?"
I held back but will be bringing my Cam to the funeral/pub after which is tomorrow.....

Anyone else take their hobby a step too far?

Taking a photo of someone in a coffin is just morbid. There are bound to be plenty of photos of your friend while alive.

Is it not a little selfish to indulge in your hobby whilst mourning?

Eirebear

Dundhoone wrote: »

Taking a photo of someone in a coffin is just morbid. There are bound to be plenty of photos of your friend while alive.

Is it not a little selfish to indulge in your hobby whilst mourning?

He didnt take it though? He thought it, but that's as far as it went.

There seems to be a few people taking offence to the idea of AR thinking about taking a picture of a situation he isnt in very often.

As i've said before, no one other than the man himself knows the best way to deal with it.

Freddie59

Eirebear wrote: »

He didnt take it though? He thought it, but that's as far as it went.

There seems to be a few people taking offence to the idea of AR thinking about taking a picture of a situation he isnt in very often.

As i've said before, no one other than the man himself knows the best way to deal with it.

I would agree with your points. But I think that people objecting (if that's the correct word) are mildly shocked at the suggestion. If the family suggested it, no problem. But I for one wouldn't like to be the one offering it the other way round.

But - hey - it's a personal and private thing.

Who am I (for one) to criticise?

bradnailer

I'd be p****d off if I was at a funeral and someone was taking photo's and if it was someone close to me you'd end up with a airfix model of a camera
So I'd leave it at home and just bring your respect.

AnimalRights

Yeah think I'll just leave it at home.









anyone a loan of a Cano G10?

Dundhoone

My mother asked me to take a photo of her father in the coffin, I refused - she had plenty of him alive and happy.

Ok if you were asked to take photos thats one situation (or at the wake.), but to take out the camera unasked is too much like like "ok I'll be here in this unhappy situation but I'll have my fun" IMO.

I know the urge with grief is to try to contribute what you can to help the situation, its just that photography can be an intrusion on privacy and that is not always compatible with grief and mourning.

Covey

Actually I find this very fascinating.

I don't want to express my opinion to influence the OP as such. It's a judgment call.

However, it would be interesting to get peoples opinions as to how they would react to something similar if they were in SE Asia, South America or elsewhere.

When would people take photos that they wouldn't consider taking in Ireland and why?

Dodgykeeper

Dragan wrote: »

As far as i am currently concerned ( may change over the coure of my photographic journey and life ) if you see something happening, the only reason not to take a picture is because you can put down the camera and affect a positive change on what is going on. That abouts it.

If something happens, for bad or worse, it deserves to be recorded and people need to see it. It's all too easy for people to close there eyes to some of the things that happen in the world.

This is nonsense, in the last week I have seen a Couple leave a Maternity Hospital after losing a baby, could I affect a positive change on this situation? No!

Would I take a take a picture to record their grief and helplessness? No!

Does this deserve to be recorded? No!

Is this me easily closing my eyes to what is happening in the world? No!

Dragan

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

This is nonsense, in the last week I have seen a Couple leave a Maternity Hospital after losing a baby, could I affect a positive change on this situation? No!

Would I take a take a picture to record their grief and helplessness? No!

Does this deserve to be recorded? No!

Is this me easily closing my eyes to what is happening in the world? No!

DK, you are missing my point and hinging on only one element that i have discussed. I clearly stated that each time it would be a case by case thing, gave a brief overview of why i might not take a photo and that was about it.

YOU didn't feel that a photo would be right, if i had been there and known what those two people went through and why there were there then I wouldn't have taken their photo either and would have left them to their pain and their privacy.

The doesn't mean that another photographer can not want to take their photo from their own justifiable ethical viewpoint.

If you would like to go through this scenario by scenario I can, as that is the only way that you, or I, would know how i would act in any given circumstances. Something i have already quite clearly stated.

Peace

In Vietnam they bury their families in one grave but first they must be buried seperately until all the meat is gone from the bones. They then dig up the bones and bury them into a comunal grave.

I do find it odd but thats the custom over there.

You need to accept that different people find different people acceptable. Personally i wouldn't have the balls to bring my camera and start taking photo's but i'm a shy photographer. If the family want the funeral photographed and i was attending then i wouldn't have a problem.

AnimalRights

I brought the Camera!
Never used it and in fact there was only one photo in my mind that I wanted to take...
Very full funeral and people were packed around the plot, I was near front and the family were each holding a red rose, in my mind I wanted that picture which I would have converted to Black and white and kept the roses red, besides that I never got the itch, I should mention that it was mostly the sadness that was there but a small bit also was it was a big rough funeral, many many 'heavies' there so to speak.

bradnailer

AnimalRights wrote: »

I brought the Camera!
Never used it and in fact there was only one photo in my mind that I wanted to take...
Very full funeral and people were packed around the plot, I was near front and the family were each holding a red rose, in my mind I wanted that picture which I would have converted to Black and white and kept the roses red, besides that I never got the itch, I should mention that it was mostly the sadness that was there but a small bit also was it was a big rough funeral, many many 'heavies' there so to speak.

Your camera lives to shoot another day, maybe a D4 funeral would be a safer location for whipping out a camera :-)

murpho999

Well I've always found it strange that every milestone of your life can be photographed, birth, growing up, communions, weddings etc but for the most cases funerals are not recorded in anyway, even though it is an occasion that brings people and communities together in a unique way.

I was at a funeral years ago where the person received military honours and the family had the burial photographed and they still treasure those pictures today.

As there seems to be a general perception in Ireland that it would cause offence to take a camera to a funeral, I would therefore never do it, but when you think about there is never a problem having press or TV cameras at high profile/celeb funerals or seeing reports of these funerals on our news programmes and photos in our newspapers the following day. (eg Hugh Leonard, last week).

PaulieC

bradnailer wrote: »

Your camera lives to shoot another day, maybe a D4 funeral would be a safer location for whipping out a camera :-)

never been to a funeral in Ringsend, have you?

Morrisseeee

Perhaps I'm not doing this photography lark long enough, but NO (to the OP's Q), if I was in a situation where the OP suggests or other type of 'situation' (and I've been in a few of those 'type of' situations this past year) then.... photography is the LAST thing on my mind !

democrates

bradnailer wrote: »

Your camera lives to shoot another day, maybe a D4 funeral would be a safer location for whipping out a camera :-)

Though there are elements among the rugby set...

Interesting thread. "Too seriously" raises the relativity question, what else is more serious, "is nothing sacred", seems most people have limits. There's a balance between the greater good and the impact on individuals in the shot, case by case we'll have varying opinions. After that there's also the impact on the photographer in living with the consequences of the decision. Some dilemmas would have solomon scratching his head.

bradnailer

cambo_gueno wrote: »

never been to a funeral in Ringsend, have you?

Yea a couple.Along time ago why?

AnimalRights

At a guess I would assume that most people think Dublin 4 is only a posh area and Cambo was ripping ya by mentioning Ringsend which is working class.

I never knew Ringend was D4 'til I googled it, there goes a lot of my D4 pisstake jokes. :mad:

PaulieC

AnimalRights wrote: »

At a guess I would assume that most people think Dublin 4 is only a posh area and Cambo was ripping ya by mentioning Ringsend which is working class.

I never knew Ringend was D4 'til I googled it, there goes a lot of my D4 pisstake jokes. :mad:

correct. people assume D4 is ballsbridge and donnybrook, but ringo and irishtown are there too

Carrigman

I find the whole idea of photographing the dead weird in the extreme. However, if a client wants one who are we to argue? The defunct one is in no position to object and from a technical perspective the problem of movement, blinking, looking the wrong way as the shutter is pressed, etc., is eliminated.

I have to say that in my experience of cadavers they rarely look like they did in life and I have often looked into a coffin at a funeral home and figured I must be at the wrong removal. There are a lot of sloppy morticians out there!

Some questions present themselves:

If the Loved One wore spectacles while alive should the photographer insist on them being worn?

Colour or Black and White? I'm inclined to favour B&W as colour would, I think, make the Loved One look like a member of the Addams Family. Then again some deft Photoshop skills might compensate.

Is it possible to ask the Undertaker to open the Loved One's eyes? Portraits generally don't work when the sitter (should that be "the reclined one" in this context?) has his/her eyes closed. On reflection, that would probably be too weird. Then again the whole concept is farking weird so what is one more piece of weirdness?

What if the Loved One was a habitual smoker? I know people who never seem to be without a fag in their gob and when I imagine them that is what they are doing. Should the photographer,er,stick one in for one last time? Lit or unlit?


Regards

Valentia

bradnailer

AnimalRights wrote: »

At a guess I would assume that most people think Dublin 4 is only a posh area and Cambo was ripping ya by mentioning Ringsend which is working class.

I never knew Ringend was D4 'til I googled it, there goes a lot of my D4 pisstake jokes. :mad:

Yea I figured that, I was been sarcastic :rolleyes:
Who thinks of Ringsend when you mention D4, other then cambo of course

PaulieC

bradnailer wrote: »

Yea I figured that, I was been sarcastic :rolleyes:
Who thinks of Ringsend when you mention D4, other then cambo of course

I almost never think of rugger buggers when D4 is mentioned. It's hard when you live so close to the pub right beside me!

allthedoyles

Carrigman wrote: »

However, if a client wants one who are we to argue?

Its not the client that wants photos taken in this instance .............Its a stupid photographer ..............

I rest my case .........RIP

bradnailer

cambo_gueno wrote: »

I almost never think of rugger buggers when D4 is mentioned. It's hard when you live so close to the pub right beside me!

What does make you think of rugger buggers

PaulieC

bradnailer wrote: »

What does make you think of rugger buggers

dunno. but the tracker knackers are definitely closer to home :-)

Gaspode

I've been to a funeral where there was an official photographer taking pics and also videoing the whole thing. I thought it was weird, but the family were asked to do this by american relatives of the dead man who couldnt make it to the funeral.