History of our old T (Trunk) and L (Link) roads

Amtmann

Marmurr, can you get me the precise name of that atlas, its year and place of publication and, if possible, its ISBN?

EXCELLENT job on wikipedia, BTW.

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

Marmurr, can you get me the precise name of that atlas, its year and place of publication and, if possible, its ISBN?

EXCELLENT job on wikipedia, BTW.

Hi,thanks for the compliment!

I'm now creating a separate Wikipedia page called 'Trunk Roads in Ireland' which I'll link to from the 'Roads in Ireland' page.

I'll move the table of former Trunk Roads to that page later. That'll make the Roads in Ireland page a bit less cluttered.

Unfortunately, the map I've been using has no date or ISBN details. It's an old Esso fold-out road map, printed by a British publisher (I'll add their details later - don't have the map to hand just now).

I bought it from an English dealer for a pittance (about 2 quid): will PM you his contact details later.

marmurr1916

For anyone interested, I've created a new Wikipedia called Trunk Roads in Ireland that links to the Roads in Ireland page.

Amtmann

I just noticed: There seems to have been no road north of Charleville to Limerick (i.e. the N20) in 1778.

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

I just noticed: There seems to have been no road north of Charleville to Limerick (i.e. the N20) in 1778.

True, the main road went from Cork to Charleville then to Kilmallock, Bruff and on to Limerick.

There are areas of Cork called Dublin Pike (as in turnpike) and Kerry Pike and there's an old toll-booth (18th/19th century) at St. Luke's Cross in the city plus the junction of the N75 and the old N8 in Tipperary is called Turnpike (the term used for the toll-gates on the turnpike roads). The detailed maps in Taylor and Skinner have these turnpikes marked.

If you look at Tipperary town and Maryboro (Portlaoise) on the map, you can see that there were connecting roads to the main roads that allowed people to avoid going into these towns. Ireland's first bypasses?

There's a book called The First Toll-Roads: Ireland's Turnpike Roads 1729-1858 by David Broderick available; it gives a history of those roads.

PS: Great map! I've linked that post above to my History of roads in Ireland page on Wikipedia.

Amtmann

I think we can do better again - Moll's Map of 1714: http://www.swaen.com/zoom_map_large.htm?zoomifyImagePath=/os/zoom/02976/&zoomifyFadeInSpeed=10

You can zoom in on this excellent colour map. Roads are shown in grey.

The N8/R639 did not exist in 1714 between Mitchelstown and Cahir, nor between Cashel and Urlingford! Any other notable absenses?

EDIT: That appears to be because Urlingford, Littleton etc did not exist at the time.

Amtmann

Doctor Thomas Molyneux described parts of the journey from Dublin to Connaught in April 1709. According to Molyneux, the route from Beggar's Bridge (now Rochfortbridge) to Moate consisted of "mighty bad coach roads".

In the early 1700s, travellers on Ireland's highways despised dry, breezy weather almost as much as they did torrential rain, for during heatwaves or dry spells great clouds of choking dust were thrown up by carriages and horses. In May 1752 Bishop Synge made a journey from Dublin to Kinnegad. He described it thus: "Yesterday there was something arising on the road - Till we came to Kilcock all firmly wetted. From there to Clonard, all dust. Not a drop of rain the day before. As we advanced, the road was very wet and for that reason very pleasant."

Quotations taken from Dr David Broderick, The First Toll-Roads: Ireland's Turnpike Roads, 1729-1858 (Cork, 2002), pp. 27-28.

Amtmann

Broderick's book really is a gem, laden as it is with extensive excerpts from primary sources.

On pages 105-6 he discusses the diary of an Englishman who toured Ireland in late summer 1782. This man, known to us only as "X.Z.", travelled extensively around Munster and Leinster:

X.Z. travelled from Dublin to Cork via Kilkenny to Clonmel (N76), from there to Cahir (N24), and from Cahir to Mitchelstown (not by the old N8, which didn't exist, but by the R665). He then travelled in a circular route from Cork to Youghal, Lismore, Clogheen, Kilworth and back to Cork. Later he went on to Limerick, Clonmel, Cashel and Urlingford, but instead of returning to Dublin at that time, he toured through Portarlington, Roscrea, Birr, Athlone and Mullingar before returning to the capital via Drogheda. X.Z. did not comment on the roads until he left Clonmel after coming from Dublin:

"From Clonmel we rode west 8 miles to Cahir [N24] and here we first noticed the difference between Munster and Leinster roads: the roads in Munster are not carried on right lines, but wind about considerably in different places for no reason that we could find out, except it be in some places for the sake of mounting a few steep hills, which would be avoided if the roads were carried in a straight line - They seem the paths formerly trod by their ancestors, and are in some places paved and gravelled, in others in a natural state - Travelling on these accounts is very slow in Munster, especially if we go out of turnpike roads."

Broderick continues, 'As this traveller left Munster, he unwittingly criticised one of the province's turnpike roads: "From Cashel we rode fifteen miles of a bad road, through a bleak country to Urlingford [the old N8], when we enter Leinster province. The country now becomes more populous, better improved, and the roads much more agreeable for travelling.'

L1011

Furet wrote: »

I think we can do better again - Moll's Map of 1714: http://www.swaen.com/zoom_map_large.htm?zoomifyImagePath=/os/zoom/02976/&zoomifyFadeInSpeed=10

You can zoom in on this excellent colour map. Roads are shown in grey.

The N8/R639 did not exist in 1714 between Mitchelstown and Cahir, nor between Cashel and Urlingford! Any other notable absenses?

EDIT: That appears to be because Urlingford, Littleton etc did not exist at the time.

No N56...

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

I think we can do better again - Moll's Map of 1714: http://www.swaen.com/zoom_map_large.htm?zoomifyImagePath=/os/zoom/02976/&zoomifyFadeInSpeed=10

You can zoom in on this excellent colour map. Roads are shown in grey.

The N8/R639 did not exist in 1714 between Mitchelstown and Cahir, nor between Cashel and Urlingford! Any other notable absenses?

EDIT: That appears to be because Urlingford, Littleton etc did not exist at the time.

An even better map!

Urlingford is marked on the map: you have to look very closely to see it though.

It's printed as

Vrling
ford

on the map, just by the yellow shaded area that marks part of the Kilkenny border.

There's a road leading out of it to the north, passing through a village marked Cully Nill (Cullahill) and Durrow, and heading to Maryborrow (Maryborough, now Portlaoise) via Ballynekill (Ballynakill, Co. Laois) and B.knockaun (Ballyknockan, nr Portlaoise).

You can see the line of the road (now mainly local roads and parts of regional roads) from north of Durrow to Portlaoise on viamichelin if you zoom in close enough.

There are two books on Google Books with chapters on the development of Irish roads for anyone with an interest:

Chapter 10 (Roads and Road Traffic by, 189-208) in Local Government in Ireland by Mark Callanan, Justin F. Keogan, Institute of Public Administration.

Chapter 1 (Roads and Bridges, 1-48) in The Industrial Archaeology of Northern Ireland by William Alan McCutcheon, Northern Ireland Dept. of the Environment.

If those links don't work, just type 'Ireland post roads' into google.ie and they'll be the first two results you get.

marmurr1916

MYOB wrote: »

No N56...

Except for the section between Letterkenny and Dunfanaghy.

A lot of west coast routes are missing: most of the Ring of Kerry, most of the N59, N67 etc.

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

It seems the eighteenth century was indeed one of massive road building - all turnpikes, incidentally.

A massive toll road building programme. Sounds familiar.

Amtmann

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Except for the section between Letterkenny and Dunfanaghy.

A lot of west coast routes are missing: most of the Ring of Kerry, most of the N59, N67 etc.

Which raises another question: how accurate are these maps? I'm inclined to think that they are extremely accurate, but not infallible. The Ring of Kerry, for example, may well have existed as a series of cow paths or - quite literally - goat tracks, used mainly for agricultural purposes.

It is a tragedy of unspeakable scale that almost all our historical records were destroyed during the civil war. It makes reconstructing our past so much more difficult than it would otherwise be. But I firmly believe that historians specialising in Irish history should pay far more attention to the development of the road network. At the micro-level, it's fairly apparent that townlands, which are the oldest territorial units on the island, are often seperated by a boreen/local road. The larger roads are undoubtedly the newest - though some of these, such as the N76, probably date from Norman times or before.

In any case, to understand the origins of the road network is to understand the origins of the Irish nation as it is today, in terms of its distribution, settlement evolution, colonisation, growth and centralisation. Old roads are like old castles or houses; they are pregnant with history, and quite haunting to boot.

road_high

Furet wrote: »

Broderick's book really is a gem, laden as it is with extensive excerpts from primary sources.

On pages 105-6 he discusses the diary of an Englishman who toured Ireland in late summer 1782. This man, known to us only as "X.Z.", travelled extensively around Munster and Leinster:

X.Z. travelled from Dublin to Cork via Kilkenny to Clonmel (N76), from there to Cahir (N24), and from Cahir to Mitchelstown (not by the old N8, which didn't exist, but by the R665). He then travelled in a circular route from Cork to Youghal, Lismore, Clogheen, Kilworth and back to Cork. Later he went on to Limerick, Clonmel, Cashel and Urlingford, but instead of returning to Dublin at that time, he toured through Portarlington, Roscrea, Birr, Athlone and Mullingar before returning to the capital via Drogheda. X.Z. did not comment on the roads until he left Clonmel after coming from Dublin:

"From Clonmel we rode west 8 miles to Cahir [N24] and here we first noticed the difference between Munster and Leinster roads: the roads in Munster are not carried on right lines, but wind about considerably in different places for no reason that we could find out, except it be in some places for the sake of mounting a few steep hills, which would be avoided if the roads were carried in a straight line - They seem the paths formerly trod by their ancestors, and are in some places paved and gravelled, in others in a natural state - Travelling on these accounts is very slow in Munster, especially if we go out of turnpike roads."

Broderick continues, 'As this traveller left Munster, he unwittingly criticised one of the province's turnpike roads: "From Cashel we rode fifteen miles of a bad road, through a bleak country to Urlingford [the old N8], when we enter Leinster province. The country now becomes more populous, better improved, and the roads much more agreeable for travelling.'

Not much changed so lol . Go Leinster

Amtmann

The N8 between Mitchelstown and Cahir wasn't built until after 1811 - one of the last sections constructed and, I must say, exceptionally well built and future-proofed for the time. They couldn't have anticipated the invention of the motorcar after all. Also, the section between Cashel and Urlingford was also a masterful achievement considering it was built around 1739. I love the way they linked the two pre-existing roads to Thurles (Horse and Jockey, and Two-mile-Borris) and slapped up a turnpike at the latter. Before that, travellers from Cashel to Thurles had to go via Holycross.

Of all the Munster roads, the road that is now the N24 seems to be one of the most ancient, along with the Cork-Bantry road and the Mallow to Clonmel road (now the N73 and R665). This last one too was tolled, and seems to have been the centre of a scandal in the mid-1700s, with the toll collector supposed to use the monies earned for upkeep of the entire stretch. He actually only maintained the bit running through County Cork, much to the annoyance of Tipperary road-users.

Regarding the route from Cork to Dublin in general, Broderick cites the record of a military commander in the 1680s who marched his men from Cork to Dublin in eight days. He made it to Rathcormac on day one, and then from there to Kilworth village. This is where it gets a little confusing. The commander marched from Kilworth over "Kilworth Mountain" to Clogheen. Now, what does "Kilworth Mountain" mean? Does it mean the route of the current N8 between Mitchelstown and Fermoy, or does it refer to a more direct older route, now a tiny L road, that goes very close to the mountaintop to come out on the Clogheen side of Ballyporeen on the present R665? It's hard to say, but multiple accounts from the 1700s seem to indicate that the present N8 between Fermoy and Mitcheltown did not exist until some time after 1811.

spacetweek

My map here. Click through the image to get the Gmaps editable version.

marmurr1916

spacetweek wrote: »

My map here. Click through the image to get the Gmaps editable version.

Nice, but a bit Dublin-centric!

I wouldn't call the main roads between Cork and Wexford (T12), Limerick and Waterford (T13), Cork-Limerick-Galway-Sligo(T11) and Sligo to Derry (T18) minor roads.

Amtmann

It would be nice if RTE produced a documentary something along the lines of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6hNpwGQ69c

mysterious

I always thought the N7(T5) was built before the T6.

Or at least the ancient Limerick Dublin road, goes along the existing route. I have seen even older pre 1700 maps. To be quite frank, I have no idea where I seen it. But the old limerick road is far older than 1735.

Amtmann

Almost every straight section of road in the country dates after 1709. Professor Andrews, the world expert in early modern Irish maps, says this, and I believe him.

There are older maps, but they often contradict each other, and aren't comprehensive. If any of you have access to an academic library I suggest you consult his "Shapes of Ireland" book for some maps reconstructed from sixteenth-century accounts, and for references to exact maps.

Herman Moll's map (1714) does show what could now be the N7 through Portlaoise, Roscrea and Moneygall. The turnpike map at the top of this page (taken from Broderick's book) indicates when roads were tolled, not merely built - and in order to be tolled, these roads first had to be improved (or built, depending on the road in question). I think that's what Broderick's years mean in the context of the N7 at any rate, but not of the N8 which is almost entirely absent from Moll's map of 1714.

spacetweek

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Nice, but a bit Dublin-centric!

I wouldn't call the main roads between Cork and Wexford (T12), Limerick and Waterford (T13), Cork-Limerick-Galway-Sligo(T11) and Sligo to Derry (T18) minor roads.

Good point pal. I'll change it.

I shoulda known better

marmurr1916

spacetweek wrote: »

Good point pal. I'll change it.

I shoulda known better

You could make all the roads from Cork the most important if you like.

marmurr1916

Furet wrote: »

It would be nice if RTE produced a documentary something along the lines of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6hNpwGQ69c

Who knows? Maybe they'll get their act together yet...

In the meantime, people like yourself are playing an important role in documenting the construction of what will eventually become roads that are going to have a major impact on Irish society and culture.

The shortening of journey times because of motorways and dual-carriageways has already expanded the hinterlands of the towns and cities that they lead to.

When the network's complete it'll have a huge impact on Ireland. What exactly that impact will be is impossible to know.

For now, it's nice to see that the construction of the motorway network is being so well-documented, especially since our historical records for other periods of major road-building are often so poor.

Actually, it would be good if any photos people have of roads, road building etc. were uploaded to wikimedia commons and put into the Roads in Ireland category.

mysterious

Furet wrote: »

Almost every straight section of road in the country dates after 1709. Professor Andrews, the world expert in early modern Irish maps, says this, and I believe him.

There are older maps, but they often contradict each other, and aren't comprehensive. If any of you have access to an academic library I suggest you consult his "Shapes of Ireland" book for some maps reconstructed from sixteenth-century accounts, and for references to exact maps.

Herman Moll's map (1714) does show what could now be the N7 through Portlaoise, Roscrea and Moneygall. The turnpike map at the top of this page (taken from Broderick's book) indicates when roads were tolled, not merely built - and in order to be tolled, these roads first had to be improved (or built, depending on the road in question). I think that's what Broderick's years mean in the context of the N7 at any rate, but not of the N8 which is almost entirely absent from Moll's map of 1714.

\

Thanks for that info.
The N8 didnt exist because it wasnt the main route to Cork, even right up till the 70s at least. The N76 via athy Kilkenny, Clonmel, Cahir and onto Cork was the main road

The N24/N76 diverge which is now a roundabout clearly shows that the N24 was the old T6 and continued onto to the N76. The N24 now has a roundabout and the N24 is made mainline.

But if you were on the N24 coming from Clonmel and went straight with no roundabout present you'd end right on the N76. Since the reclassifcation and the downgrading of the T6 to N76. The N24 was became in use.

Also why did they opt to upgrade the N8 over the T6. Was the T6 better quality than the N8 in the 1960s. To all the cork travellers going back which route did you journey en route to Dublin??

Amtmann

mysterious wrote: »

\

Thanks for that info.
The N8 didnt exist because it wasnt the main route to Cork, even right up till the 70s at least. The N76 via athy Kilkenny, Clonmel, Cahir and onto Cork was the main road

The N24/N76 diverge which is now a roundabout clearly shows that the N24 was the old T6 and continued onto to the N76. The N24 now has a roundabout and the N24 is made mainline.

But if you were on the N24 coming from Clonmel and went straight with no roundabout present you'd end right on the N76. Since the reclassifcation and the downgrading of the T6 to N76. The N24 was became in use.

Also why did they opt to upgrade the N8 over the T6. Was the T6 better quality than the N8 in the 1960s. To all the cork travellers going back which route did you journey en route to Dublin??

My grandfather travelled to Dublin from Tipperary in 1940 via the N8 route. I think a lot of people from close to Cashel and Cahir did this. I also think that Esso road maps from the 50s and 60s gave the N8 route as the preferred route between Cork and Dublin. I don't think route numbers were particularly important to people back then. Most people over a certain age know a route by the towns you pass through along the way to your destination, rather than by the road number.

Regarding the T6 from Cahir to Mitchelstown: this included the old N8 between Cahir and Mitchelstown only from the mid-1800s, because before that the N8 did not exist along that section.

Instead, you generally went from Clonmel directly to Clogheen and Ballyporeen (today's R665), and from there across a mountain to Kilworth, completely avoiding Mitchelstown and Cahir (I am talking about 1600s/mid-late 1700s here). That road over the mountain still exists today, but it is only a sheep track now. I will drive it some day soon to take a look for myself.

mysterious

It would be interesting to see what the old N7 and N8 were like back in the day.

I know at Moneygall to Dunkerrin the old road is adjacent for much of it's lenght. Barely enough room for two trucks to pass even. Now its so overgorwn and in disrepair doubt you'd get a truck down it.


Also the Toome to Nenagh section was one of the finest roads in the country pre 70s. The road is very wide and dead straight for 2 miles. It was a well known speed trap. Fine road this is. Even the Old N7 entering Nenagh was majestic almost. Back in the early 50s from pics, shows that the Dublin road was wide. I'm not sure about the railway bridge that the old N7 passed over, but It's at least 40 years old. This section of N7 was one of the widest roads of the time I believe.

Roscrea is also interesting the Main road, used to go down these narrow streets. It's really weird looking back as a child having passed through Roscrea pre bypass. Does anyone know how old the bypass is now. Can't believe I don't know:eek:. Castletown bypass is also very old, late 80s I think?.

I remember Nenagh used to have notorious tailbacks on bank holidays in summer good god. The road was never as busy as it is now. But even 13 years ago Nenagh used to be bottlenecked, because trucks had to jackknife through the town.

My favourite stretch of road is the Toome to Nenagh section:):) Love it.

Anyway I went of on one. I think everyone should bring back a few memories of driving the old roads cus we will soon miss them:( now that we have motorways. Motorways are good. But it will be boring journeys going from Dublin to the cities.

I think the N7 should be named the mother of all roads:P

Amtmann

I think this is an excellent article by John Waters, a man who clearly knows and loves roads.

Making amends to Moate after years of scapegoating

WE OWE Moate an apology. For years, the relationship of many of us to that township has been defined by resentment, as we sat seething in our cars wondering if Moate would ever end. Now, in a sense, Moate has ended. I met a man last week just back from the opening of the new N6 motorway section between Kilbeggan and Athlone, which bypasses Moate, removing it from most of our lives. "That was my last time in Moate," he declared.

At the sod-turning two years ago, the then minister for transport Martin Cullen explained: "The N6 Kilbeggan to Athlone road project forms part of the East/West Strategic Road Corridor. It is a further development in delivering Transport 21 that connects the regions and promotes prosperity in communities. It will provide a bypass for Kilbeggan, Moate and Horseleap, giving these towns back to their people. At the moment this section of the N6 has traffic volumes in the region of 13,000 every day, of which 1,500 are HGVs, while Moate can experience three-mile tailbacks on Friday evenings. In addition, it will reduce journey times by up to 30 minutes at peak times."

I especially admire the way the minister, in his aside about giving towns back to their people, sought to avoid hurting Moate's feelings. With due respect to Horseleap and Kilbeggan, I do not think they are quite in the same category of national scapegoat as Moate.

They might be said to have suffered in being seen by passers-through as an impediment to westerly progress; but, being smaller, which is to say shorter, they did not attract anything like the same level of opprobrium.
Moate has suffered a prolonged and grievous defamation, a deep hurt to its self-confidence, and an extended tailback of a slur upon its character. Twenty years ago, hardly an episode of the cult television programme Nighthawks went by without someone saying something snide about Moate. All because Moate simply stood its ground, refused to get out of the way, but politely tolerated the invading lines of West-fetishists passing daily by its doors.

If we are to deal with what psychoanalysts call the "issues" arising from the Tiger years, a good way of beginning might be to ruminate on what has happened with Moate and how it mirrors what has happened to us all.
Fifteen years ago, before all this progress stuff got under way, I wrote here about our changing attitude to roads and how they were creating a defining metaphor for our attitude to space and time. Even then the new roads were already connecting, and dividing the economically significant regions of the east from the more leisurely regions of the west, and reducing the midlands to an obstacle course in between.

At the time I cited Milan Kundera's observation in his novel Immortality that what we think of as roads actually fall into two categories: roads and routes. "A route differs from a road," he wrote, "not only because it is solely intended for vehicles, but also because it is merely a line that connects one point with another. A route has no meaning in itself; its meaning derives entirely from the two points that it connects." A route represents "the triumphant devaluation of space, which thanks to it has been reduced to a mere obstacle to human movement and a waste of time".

A road, though, "is a tribute to space. Every stretch of road has a meaning in itself and invites us to stop".

But roads and routes, he stressed, are "two different conceptions of beauty". There is nothing wrong with wanting to get from A to B in the shortest time. But sometimes this objective loses sight of its purpose in an obsessive sense of space as a mere obstacle between two modes of living. And we do the same with time, wishing the week away to get to the weekend and missing the weekend because of worrying about next week.

It is nice, I admit, to be able to get from Dalkey to Sligo in three hours, but this is at the cost of a journey that is monotonous on the eye and wearing on the soul. Having for years delighted in the improvements to our national road system, I have recently found myself turning off and taking roads that, as a result of these improvements, have been wiped off the map.

Going west nowadays, for example, I might occasionally turn off the Mullingar bypass, skirt around the suburbs and head towards Ballymahon. To do so is like taking a time machine, for you soon find yourself driving through countryside unchanged since the 1970s.

Or, instead of following the M1 all the way home, I go into Kinnegad and take the old road to Dublin via Enfield, Kilcock and Leixlip, all beautiful towns. This changes entirely the meaning of the journey and gives me, literally, pause for thought, not least thought about whether, whenever I go someplace in Ireland, I really have to be home within three hours.
Next time I go west I plan to pull over into Moate and make amends over a cup of tea.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0725/1216917539254.html

Amtmann

If anyone is interested, the Irish Times website is allowing unlimited free access to its archive until early April. It's a good opportunity to dig out old newspaper reports of bypass opening dates (e.g., see the report on the opening of the Portlaoise bypass on 29 May 1997, or the multiple calls for tenders for the Glanmire Bypass in 1990 and 1991).

See: http://www.irishtimes.com/150/

BrianD3

Furet wrote: »

If anyone is interested, the Irish Times website is allowing unlimited free access to its archive until early April. It's a good opportunity to dig out old newspaper reports of bypass opening dates (e.g., see the report on the opening of the Portlaoise bypass on 29 May 1997, or the multiple calls for tenders for the Glanmire Bypass in 1990 and 1991).

See: http://www.irishtimes.com/150/

Thanks for that, I have spent several hours browsing the Irish Times archives since I saw your post

Here is a page with an article and picture of Martin Birrane breaking the Irish land speed record on the M50 before it opened
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/1990/1109/Pg021.html

icdg

Here's something that everyone on this thread will probably be interested in - Sylvester Barrett launching the new Warboys-style signage back in 1977...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/1977/1012/Pg006.html