History of our old T (Trunk) and L (Link) roads

Richard

icdg wrote: »

Here's something that everyone on this thread will probably be interested in - Sylvester Barrett launching the new Warboys-style signage back in 1977...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/archive/1977/1012/Pg006.html

The Irish language versions of each place name look so much clearer than the present version.

spacetweek

Furet wrote: »

If anyone is interested, the Irish Times website is allowing unlimited free access to its archive until early April. It's a good opportunity to dig out old newspaper reports of bypass opening dates (e.g., see the report on the opening of the Portlaoise bypass on 29 May 1997, or the multiple calls for tenders for the Glanmire Bypass in 1990 and 1991).

See: http://www.irishtimes.com/150/

I haven't been on the Cashel BP in a while and can't remember ... is the Rock actually visible from it or not?

Amtmann

Not.

Amtmann

Some articles about M9 and N7 openings in the early 90s attached...

Amtmann

Glanmire Bypass opening:

EDIT - Jack Lynch Tunnel opening report also attached.

L1011

Furet wrote: »

Some articles about M9 and N7 openings in the early 90s attached...

I find the capacity stated for the D2M N9 a bit low! Although it does end northbound by losing a lane before the merge rather than two lanes and a tiger tail so that might be a reason why...

Amtmann

I would love to know when this realignment south of Mitchelstown on the N8 took place, as well as this, this, this and this

All of the above involved a fair amount of cutting and carving. This is especially noticable on the approach to Urlingford and just south of Mitchelstown on the climbing lane section before you cross the new junction 13 overbridge. I'm thinking the work was done in the 60s or 70s, though this is pure speculation. Does anyone older and wiser than me remember?

You get the same thing here on the N7 by the way, and here on the N6, though neither of these are as obvious as N8 realignments.

L1011

A lot of those 100-200 yard tweak realignments were done on the N4 as late as the early 1990s. Never really used any other major roads than the N4/N15/N56 till I started driving myself so can't comment about the others!

L1011

MYOB wrote: »

Found the Esso map I mentioned earlier - its UK and Ireland, "price 7/6" so its pre-1971... and completely lacking in Irish route numbers However, it has strip maps of 'recommended routes' between cities. The Dublin->Cork recommendation is:

Cork, Cobh Junction, Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Cahir, Cashel, Littleton, Urlingford, Durro, Abbeyleix, Portlaoise, Monasterevin, Kildare, Naas, Rathcoole, Dublin.

So even if the trunk road was different the recommended route was pretty much what we use now!

Route to Galway matches the old T4 (via Athenry); route to Wexford is the new N11 (not the T7), the route to Waterford goes through Kilkenny City. Sligo/Killarney/Belfast/Limerick all look correct for N4/N7+21/N1+A1/N7

Apologies for bouncing an ancient thread, but was trying to date this Esso map again and it appears it could be from the 1930s! Figured out the mapping datum is probably 1905 (no border, railway line to Burtonport shown as built, South Wexford line not shown as built) and its copyrighted to the "Irish American Oil Company" - which changed its registered name to Esso in 1935.

Amtmann

MYOB wrote: »

Apologies for bouncing an ancient thread, but was trying to date this Esso map again and it appears it could be from the 1930s! Figured out the mapping datum is probably 1905 (no border, railway line to Burtonport shown as built, South Wexford line not shown as built) and its copyrighted to the "Irish American Oil Company" - which changed its registered name to Esso in 1935.

MYOB, any chance you could scan or take photos of parts of it and post them here?

In my old place of work I had access to the first real road map of Ireland, a book commissioned in late summer 1776 and published in 1778, replete with many illustrations including one large foldout map of the entire island. This map was published on 13 November 1778 in Taylor and Skinner's Maps of the Roads of Ireland. It was republished in 1968 by Dr J.H. Andrews, the early modern cartographic historian.

Almost all of the main T roads and future N roads were in place by this time. However, taking the route from Cork to Dublin as an example, travellers left Cork and travelled north as far as Mitchelstown before they then took what is now the R665 (Mitchelstown - Ballyporeen - Clogheen) to Clonmel and then onwards via the old T6 (Clonmel - Kilkenny - Kilcullen - Naas; today's N24, N76, N9 and N7), rather than head to Clonmel via Cahir.

The N7, N8, and N6 were all in place in 1778 however, though pavement quality was probably extremely poor in many parts.

I photocopied the map but the machine jammed up so I'm missing the northern counties. The copy I made is size A3 and it's awkward to photograph, but I took pictures of parts of the map which I post here now for anyone who's interested to look at. I have crudely lined the county borders in blue ink.















Much of the old N8 from Cashel to around Durrow was built in the 1730s from scratch.

The N74 was also built around 1739, while much of the N25 was constructed in the 1790s. Much of the N7 was similarly built or massively improved in the early to mid 1730s.

It seems the eighteenth century was indeed one of massive road building - all turnpikes, incidentally.



Here is Moll's Map of 1714: http://www.swaen.com/zoom_map_large.htm?zoomifyImagePath=/os/zoom/02976/&zoomifyFadeInSpeed=10

You can zoom in on this excellent colour map. Roads are shown in grey.

The old N8 did not exist in 1714 between Mitchelstown and Cahir, nor between Cashel and Urlingford.

Any other notable absenses?

You can fairly easily tell the very old (pre 1700s roads) apart from from the 1700s-built turnpike roads even today. For instance, the broad, straight national roads of today (parts of the N7, most of the N8, etc.) were built in the early- to mid-1700s; the older roads (dating from medieval times) are the ones that everyone gives out about today: the narrow, twisty old N9 and the N76 between Clonmel and Kilkenny, for example.

marmurr1916

There are a couple of wikipedia articles, an overview of the History of Roads in Ireland and a detailed review of the old Trunk road network, worth reading.

-Corkie-

The 1747 road was the main cork- kerry road. It ran through Millstreet in County Cork through Rylane and on to Cork. Its called the butter road locally because farmers would transport butter another supplies produced on this road to Cork city. There is actually a offical resting place for the travellers outside Millstreet. It is called the Kerrymans table. There is a plaque and monument there to mark the spot where people stopped to eat. Kinda a mini msa of yestayear!!!:). I will take pics the next time I think of it...

wellbutty

So you're telling me Kilkenny County Council didn't do any work on the N9 since the 1700s...no wonder it was so s*ite!

charlemont

A road iv often traveled on is a section of old dublin to cork road before the Trunk classifications were introduced , fermoy - kilworth - ballyporeen .. its a quick route too, but never had a T classification..

it was the construction of the road between kilbeheny and cahir that eventually killed this route..

marmurr1916

-Corkie- wrote: »

The 1747 road was the main cork- kerry road. It ran through Millstreet in County Cork through Rylane and on to Cork. Its called the butter road locally because farmers would transport butter another supplies produced on this road to Cork city. There is actually a offical resting place for the travellers outside Millstreet. It is called the Kerrymans table. There is a plaque and monument there to mark the spot where people stopped to eat. Kinda a mini msa of yestayear!!!:). I will take pics the next time I think of it...

Some photos here:

http://www.millstreet.ie/blog/category/living/history/page/3

Another one of the remains of a butter road near Caherdaniel in Co. Kerry:

http://www.geograph.ie/photo/248833

spacetweek

Very interesting detail on that last map there, Furet. It says "Roads Never Built" and shows a perfectly straight road between Ballingar, Offaly and Clane. The western section was never built.

Indeed I had always wondered why the Clane-Prosperous road ran straight, but then west of Allentown it suddenly veered south. So now I know that it's an old road building scheme that was cancelled when they were still on Phase 1.

Sponge Bob

Here is a rather good High Resolution Map of our road network from roughly 1861.

I am basing this dating on the missing Longford-Sligo railway line which was finished in 1862 and Tuam Railway station which was finished in 1860.

18Mb, High Resolution.

https://www.wuala.com/Itsmuck/Documents/Ireland%20Map%20Hi%20Def%20Keith%20Johnston/?key=KdJ2mV4xWkvF

Victor

Amtmann wrote: »

I would love to know when

this I would suspect 1970s

this, Given the width of the old road, I would hope it was an early realignment. But the width of the new road would suggest it is quite modern. However, I wonder is that a concrete block wall on the north side of the old road suggesting the old road was originally wider.

this, Again, I wonder was the old road narrowed. I suspect it is a historic realignment, that was later widened.

this I think this was done as part of the Port Laois Bypass in the 1990s

this I think this was about 1990.

here I suspect historic.

here If you mean this: http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=R446&daddr=R446&hl=en&ll=53.309545,-8.275537&spn=0.026103,0.084543&sll=53.31416,-8.268671&sspn=0.0261,0.084543&geocode=FXR5LQMd7uCB_w%3BFSBfLQMdQmCB_w&t=h&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=14&z=14 That is more than 150 years old, although it may have been widened: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,581227,728702,5,7

cgarvey

Does anyone know that that 'v' symbol is on old signposts? Under the L18 in this photo.

marmurr1916

icdg wrote: »

The lack of a Naas Bypass would seem to put that map somewhere between 1977 and 1983. Although the lack of national secondary routes may suggest this may pre-date the finalisation of the system in 1977..

The southern part of the map shows Cork - Roscoff as a ferry route:

Brittany Ferries picked up on this in 1978 when they announced they were starting a service between Roscoff and Cork.

...

The weekly service commenced on May 27th 1978.

http://www.irish-ferries-enthusiasts.com/brittany-ferries

Presumably the map would have gone to print before this ferry service was announced or commenced, so it's earliest date must be 1979.

charlemont

cgarvey wrote: »

Does anyone know that that 'v' symbol is on old signposts? Under the L18 in this photo.

Not sure but I'v seen it on a few rare old signs too.

murphaph

cgarvey wrote: »

Does anyone know that that 'v' symbol is on old signposts? Under the L18 in this photo.

Isn't it the old Bord Failte logo?

icdg

murphaph wrote: »

Isn't it the old Bord Failte logo?

That's exactly what it is. For some odd reason they had responsibility for road signage for a time, I guess it was thought of as primarily a tourist matter. It was later replaced on road signs by a harp when signage was transferred to local authorities but I am not sure when that happen but it was presumably prior to 1977. Pre-war these signs would have had the AA logo.

cgarvey

murphaph wrote: »

Isn't it the old Bord Failte logo?

So it is, and I see that very photo is linked on another page that mentions that too. I've Googled this about 3 times in detail over the last five years, so thanks for thanks for that!

niloc1951

amtmann says "The old N8 did not exist in 1714 between Mitchelstown and Cahir,"

I remember seeing an old enamel road map (I think it was a Firestone Tyres map) on the wall of an old garage, it had all the railways on it so it was probably from the early 1900's or thereabouts. One thing I remember about it is that it had no connecting road between Mitchelstown and Cahir

Also, the realignment south of Mitchelstown must have been done pre mid 1960's as I remember driving the existing road in the late 60's

Sponge Bob

cgarvey wrote: »

So it is, and I see that very photo is linked on another page that mentions that too. I've Googled this about 3 times in detail over the last five years, so thanks for thanks for that!

Bord Failte was a quango set up to take over the functions of Fógra Fáilte in the 1950s. They were given responsibility for signage.

I think there was a 1952 Tourist Traffic Act which was the main one. There was another in 1954 or 1955.

Bord Fáilte did not supply all the signs but were allowed to make up any deficit they saw in signage and on THOSE particular signs they could put their logo.

Most signs were actually supplied by local authorities. EG

marmurr1916

Another little snippet of road history.

Here's some information about Brown's Barn next to the N7 in south Co. Dublin, a landmark building for travellers on the Naas dual-carriageway section of the N7:

MANY times I have been asked how did 'Brown's Barn' (The Royal Garter Stables), the old building facing the City West Business Complex get its name and I did not know. But now I do. For 'Brown' read 'Bian', short all over Ireland for Bianconi, the man who revolutionised transport in Ireland in 1815 when he started his first "long car" service from Clonmel to Cahir carrying mail in the centre of the extended jaunting car. It could carry six people on each side and the fares were only a fraction of that charged by the mail coaches for a much slower service.

Soon the service spread to other towns and within a few years was operating all over Ireland. In "Seventy Years Young", Lady Fingall describes the Galway to Clifden service when she was young. And they became known as the 'Bians'. He set up his principal depot at the Royal Garter Stables and you can still see the round windows (like wheels) on the western end of the main building. A building with hay barns and forge on the City West side of the road was demolished when the Dual Carriageway was developed around 1970.

Quote from 'The Royal Garter Stables', South County Scrap Book by Mary McNally (Tallaght Historical Society, Tallaght, Co. Dublin, 1999).

Available online at http://source.southdublinlibraries.ie/handle/10599/4928

Victor

Browns Barn is the townland name: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,704555,728118,5,7