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Helpdesk is a joke

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13

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    #62
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Mods don't gang up on people in Help Desk, if a user has dealt with one mod then he/she replys, if they've dealt with two then they respond.

    Given its generally a user complaining about being banned then its upto THEM to defend against a ban...why should other partys be involved?

    I've seen a number of threads in the forum where a user said a mod banned them for a unfair reason, the mod posts, an admin or smod looks over it and says fair enough maybe the mod could have dealt with it better but then the admin looks at the posts themselfs and see's the user lied to begin with.

    Nobody likes being banned but people should atleast take it on the chin and if they've done something wrong they just need to accept it,

    imho Help Desk works as feedback threads turn into witchhunts


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    #63
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    GuanYin wrote: »
    Oh please.

    You started a campaign against a mod that deteriorated into "lots of people hate him, I can't name names, but they all say they hate you in PMs to me, I'm just telling you what they all said".

    You then sent unsolicited PMs to users to attempt to rise a mob. Users complained to me about it so you got banned.

    If you had a reasonable complaint, you didn't in any way present it.

    While its pointless going over old territory, and others can, and have,judged the particular thread ( http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055375700 ) for themselves, for the record I never said i wouldn't name names. In fact, not only did I name these names in the thread; Rsaire, dresden8, is that so, jawlie, Berliner, gurramok, redspider, brendan777, murphaph, dinxminx, xonxeited, looby loo, the high ground, Dlofnep, Paddybare, Simplesam06 and others, but i also gave direct quotes of what they, and others, had publically said.

    So less of your "I can't name names" nonsense. Lets have accuracy and honesty, at least.


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    #64
    Hobart
    Registered Users Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭Hobart


    auerillo wrote: »
    While its pointless going over old territory, and others can, and have,judged the particular thread ( http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055375700 ) for themselves, for the record I never said i wouldn't name names. In fact, not only did I name these names in the thread; Rsaire, dresden8, is that so, jawlie, Berliner, gurramok, redspider, brendan777, murphaph, dinxminx, xonxeited, looby loo, the high ground, Dlofnep, Paddybare, Simplesam06 and others, but i also gave direct quotes of what they, and others, had publically said.

    So less of your "I can't name names" nonsense. Lets have accuracy and honesty, at least.

    Yes!!!Lets have accuracy. Lets have a couple of bits of accuracy. I've read your replies, and you helpdesk thread, and also you numerous linkssssss and points, counter points etc... I think the effort you have put in deserves a bit more than than just black letters on a white background tbh. So I have asked my QC to address you directly.

    BTW thumbs up for the delayed response!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJVGuxj7AWQ


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    #65
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Im at a loss to understand why members seem to hold this idea that moderators all agree with each other.. They are members like everyone else with differing opinions but with a keener awareness of forum charters. There is no gang up on the little man mentality.. There is a gang up on the troll or dip**** poster, but thats it!


    breath in. Find your xen. Breath out.


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    #66
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,727 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    The way I view Help Desk is that it's a platform for users to present a complaint directly to someone who can actually do something about it if needed. However, we can only call it like we see it. If we agree with someone's complaint, we will invite the Moderator to explain the event. Usually, if a mistake has been made, it's at this point that the Mod will look again at his or her actions and hold his/her hands up.

    What seems to be an issue is that people tend to rush off to HD without fully understanding the site rules and the boards.ie paradigm. Certain things just don't float here - often things that would on somethingawful/slashdot/4chan etc. We want this to be a user-friendly site. We want users to enjoy their experience here, just as we did when we were regular users - and still do, despite the number of people who seem to hate us.

    When someone presents a complaint that really just shows that they don't understand the meaning or purpose of a rule, we will try to make it clear to that user what the rule is and, probably more importantly, why that rule exists. Some people accept it, some don't. Unfortunately, most people struggle to see how preventing them from saying something is actually for the greater good of the site's population. Beats the hell out of me.


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    #67
    Hobbes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    eagle eye wrote: »
    My main gripe is that nobody here has that opportunity in helpdesk.

    If you feel that you have genuinely been hard done by then the helpdesk is the best way to go.

    You should discuss your ban with the mod in question before hand IN A CIVIL MANNER (telling the mod to GTF just results in a longer ban).

    As mentioned only SMods and Admins can respond there. Mods can only respond if allowed to do so and the only on that thread. There is no ganging up.

    Normally if you have been banned from a forum, you would of already been warned and both reports of your warnings and bans would be logged so that the SMod can review the actual post and why the mod warned/banned you.

    There is some illision that mods are somehow all powerful. They aren't. For example I've been banned from a couple of forums on boards (temp and permanent) as well as been warned and posts deleted.

    Sucks when it happens but I can safely say at least in my instances it was because I didn't read or chose to ignore the related forum charter.

    Posting on Feedback is more for "Fight the powa" type posts or if you want to see more up to date lolcats.


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    #68
    Karl Hungus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,130 ✭✭✭✭Karl Hungus


    Hobbes wrote: »
    Posting on Feedback is more for "Fight the powa" type posts or if you want to see more up to date lolcats.

    Frankly, it's been a long time since I've seen any lolcats on feedback.


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    #69
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    Hobbes wrote: »
    If you feel that you have genuinely been hard done by then the helpdesk is the best way to go.

    You should discuss your ban with the mod in question before hand IN A CIVIL MANNER (telling the mod to GTF just results in a longer ban).

    .

    I find it hard to agree that the help desk helps anyone, except helping the mods to gang up on individuals in an environment where no one else can intervene.

    Now, you might rush to say thats a cynical view, although it must be said that reading many of the complaints in the Help Desk, the evidence does seem to point to few or no complaints being takes seriously, and moderator friends of the moderator in question ganging up on the individual who is unable to request help from anyone else as everyone else on the site is barred from taking part.

    Scroll through some of the more intelligent or lucid complaints, and you'll see lots of evidence for that.


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    #70
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    auerillo wrote: »
    I find it hard to agree that the help desk helps anyone, except helping the mods to gang up on individuals in an environment where no one else can intervene.

    Now, you might rush to say thats a cynical view, although it must be said that reading many of the complaints in the Help Desk, the evidence does seem to point to few or no complaints being takes seriously, and moderator friends of the moderator in question ganging up on the individual who is unable to request help from anyone else as everyone else on the site is barred from taking part.

    Scroll through some of the more intelligent or lucid complaints, and you'll see lots of evidence for that.

    bull****. most mods can't comment on helpdesk. Those that can are warned not to post on topics that don't directly concern them. Seeing as your whole argument is based on a false assertion, it's hard to take you seriously.


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    #71
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    tbh wrote: »
    bull****. most mods can't comment on helpdesk. Those that can are warned not to post on topics that don't directly concern them. Seeing as your whole argument is based on a false assertion, it's hard to take you seriously.

    I have no idea whether most mods can or can't comment on the helpdesk, but am aware that no non mods at all can comment.

    I'm not asking anyone to take me seriously or not, but suggest that members check out the more serious and well argued threads in the helpdesk to see the evidence.

    As for your "bull*****" comment, it's a shame you can't stick to the argument rather than name call.


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    #72
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    you don't have an argument - which is what is bull**** by the way - I don't think I was calling you names, was I?

    look at what you said:

    I find it hard to agree that the help desk helps anyone, except helping the mods to gang up on individuals in an environment where no one else can intervene.



    then you said:

    I have no idea whether most mods can or can't comment on the helpdesk, but am aware that no non mods at all can comment.


    So, your whole argument is based around mods ganging up on regular users, as "regular users" don't have access. Neither do mods. You could have easily checked that, just like you could easily link to examples if you had any, but you didn't and you don't, because the whole premise of your argument is false.

    i.e.

    bull****.


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    #73
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    tbh wrote: »
    you don't have an argument - which is what is bull**** by the way - I don't think I was calling you names, was I?

    look at what you said:

    I find it hard to agree that the help desk helps anyone, except helping the mods to gang up on individuals in an environment where no one else can intervene.



    then you said:

    I have no idea whether most mods can or can't comment on the helpdesk, but am aware that no non mods at all can comment.


    So, your whole argument is based around mods ganging up on regular users, as "regular users" don't have access. Neither do mods. You could have easily checked that, just like you could easily link to examples if you had any, but you didn't and you don't, because the whole premise of your argument is false.

    i.e.

    bull****.

    Looking at many threads, mutliple mods seem able to interject, and no non-mods seem able to. You seem to be saying that mods and non mods are treated equally in their access to the helpdesk, although teh evidence seems to sugges that only the non mod alowed to post there is the non mod making the case, while most threads there have many more than one moderator taking part in the thread.

    My argument says to members go look for the evidence yourselves, and don't take my word for it!

    Lets not get into one of these tit for tat arguments here about semantics, and if you genuinely feel that there is no evidence, thats your decision. I encourage everyone else to check it out for themselves, and come to their own conclusion based on the evidence they find there.


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    #74
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    auerillo wrote: »
    L...

    ok, fair enough but I'd suggest that as it's you presenting the argument, it's up to you to support it. It's unfair to just say "there are loads of mods jumping in" and not back that up. I'm telling you it's not true - prove me wrong. I'll back you if you're right as will 99% of mods, and most, if not all, of the admins. And, to be frank, if the point isn't important enough for you to do that, it just looks like you're having a general whinge - and it means that in future, people won't take any valid points you may have seriously. It might not bother you, but it'd bother me.

    I'm not calling you out because you're not a mod, I'm calling you out because you're wrong. It's as simple as that. Any other motive exists only in your head.


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    #75
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    auerillo wrote: »
    Looking at many threads, mutliple mods seem able to interject.

    Incorrect.
    The only Mods who get to comment in a particular thread are the ones who moderate the forum the OP is discussing. Thus getting both sides of the story.

    The rest are SMods who's job it is to run the Help Desk and to give their opinions in an unbiased way.
    If you are going to complain about the Help Desk, at least get your facts straight.


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    #76
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    tbh wrote: »
    ok, fair enough but I'd suggest that as it's you presenting the argument, it's up to you to support it. It's unfair to just say "there are loads of mods jumping in" and not back that up. I'm telling you it's not true - prove me wrong. I'll back you if you're right as will 99% of mods, and most, if not all, of the admins. And, to be frank, if the point isn't important enough for you to do that, it just looks like you're having a general whinge - and it means that in future, people won't take any valid points you may have seriously. It might not bother you, but it'd bother me.

    I'm not calling you out because you're not a mod, I'm calling you out because you're wrong. It's as simple as that. Any other motive exists only in your head.

    I've never said "there are loads of mods jumping in", even though you put that phrase in quotation marks.

    I have said, and its clear for all to see, that in many threads in the helpdesk there is only one non mod, and many more mods. If you think the helpdesk threads contain the same number of mods and non mods in each thread, then thats your conclusion.

    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Incorrect.
    The only Mods who get to comment in a particular thread are the ones who moderate the forum the OP is discussing. Thus getting both sides of the story.

    The rest are SMods who's job it is to run the Help Desk and to give their opinions in an unbiased way.
    If you are going to complain about the Help Desk, at least get your facts straight.


    Thanks for clarifying that the only mods who get to comment are the ones who moderate the particualr thread under discussion, along with SMods, and this seems to prove the point that in many threads in the helpdesk, there are many mods allowed to participate whereas there is only the one non mod who makes the complaint.

    (Additionally, I have seen a mod who claimed at the time to moderate the Airsoft & Photography threads, and he made a number of interventions in this thread about politics. http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055375700 , a forum which he did not at the time moderate. As you will see, his interventions were rude, unhelpful, were designed to inflame the situation and he is no longer, it seems, a moderator).

    I am not here to make a huge study of the threads in the helpdesk, and I only observe what I have seen.


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    #77
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    auerillo wrote: »
    I am not here to make a huge study of the threads in the helpdesk, and I only observe what I have seen.
    Wow. I can't believe you're still making an issue about not getting your way.

    You made a complaint, it was deemed to be unfounded. Get over it.


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    #78
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    auerillo, if you can't make an honest case, you won't get very far here.

    The moderator you are complaining about was someone you sought advice from, maybe because you mistook him for an admin. He asked permission to clarify his position and his role in proceedings AFTER you brought his name into the discussion and misrepresented him.

    If you are going to misrepresent users on helpdesk, then yes, I believe they should have a right to correct you.

    Regarding your claims on "others" - if they wish to make complaints, let them post here. Let us see them come out with.

    1. A specific incident - links etc
    2. What they felt was wrong with the incident.
    3. How they feel the incident to be resolved.

    Those three steps are really required for any resolution and I never, ever see them with complaints.


    Generally what you see is alot of nasty personal comments about moderators who have allegedly "wronged" those complaining and a call for their heads or their mod or whatever...

    Pretty much what I've seen here.

    I don't care about personal opinions, clashes of personality and who hates who. I care about incidents and rules and how the rules are applied. That is all I want to see.

    Present me a case where you feel someone was punished incorrectly and as a forum mod, I'll look at it with the smods and co-mods and we'll see what happened.

    Attack a mod with personal, spiteful remarks, unhelpful comments, opinions about personalities or anything that isn't about the incident itself and I'll treat the complaint with indifference.

    As is the case here.


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    #79
    Hobbes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    auerillo wrote: »
    (Additionally, I have seen a mod who claimed at the time to moderate the Airsoft & Photography threads, and he made a number of interventions in this thread about politics. http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055375700 , a forum which he did not at the time moderate. As you will see, his interventions were rude, unhelpful, were designed to inflame the situation and he is no longer, it seems, a moderator).

    OMG EVERYONE GRAB A TORCH!!

    I take it you are referring to Gandalf who is oldskool politics mod and been around on boards pretty much at its inception. Prehaps you missed him saying...
    Gandalf wrote:
    Thanks to Vexorg for giving me access to the Helpdesk so I can reply to part of this complaint.


    Firstly to clear up a misconception I am not an admin, I am a former mod of politics and a former cmod of society. I currently moderate Airsoft & Photography.

    You pm'ed me with regard to this subject and I gave you advice on where to post your concerns.

    So he is responding to a thread that you PM'ed him initially on. So in that case he would be part of the subject.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57222225&postcount=6


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    #80
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    At the time, Gandalf was mod of "Politics Mods" which I assume, is why he was involved by aureillo.


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    #81
    Karl Hungus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,130 ✭✭✭✭Karl Hungus


    Quite frankly, I think we're due some lolcats at this stage.

    funny-pictures-bad-news-for-bambi.jpg


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    #82
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    GuanYin wrote: »
    At the time, Gandalf was mod of "Politics Mods" which I assume, is why he was involved by aureillo.
    gandalf wrote: »

    Firstly to clear up a misconception I am not an admin, I am a former mod of politics and a former cmod of society. I currently moderate Airsoft & Photography.

    It seems that Gandalf seemed to be under the impression he was the moderator of Airsoft and Photography at the time. You say he was a moderator of politics at the time?

    I introduce this as Beruthiel stated that "The only Mods who get to comment in a particular thread are the ones who moderate the forum the OP is discussing", which seems to be contradicted by the evidence here, as Gandalf himself says he is not a politics moderator. Its a small point and not one particularly worth labouring.

    In any case, its not relevant to the point that I was making which was, and is, that in any one topic in the helpdesk, its one non-moderator making a complaint up against a number of moderators, which might seem unbalanced and unfair.

    Looking across the threads, it seems that the moderators in a thread often back up each other, and the non moderator is not in a position to ask for help except from the moderators.

    The topic here is about the helpdesk, and not about one particular thread in it.


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    #83
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    I went into the tax office today. There was just me and loads of tax officials. Do you think this might be spreading?


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    #84
    Hobbes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    auerillo wrote: »
    You say he was a moderator of politics at the time?

    Actually he says he was mod of the "Politics mods". Some forums have special cases in regards to moderators and may have a hidden forum to discuss moderator issues just related to that forum. Politics and Personal Issues spring to mind.

    You PM'ed Gandalf to begin with, so he was well within his right to comment on that thread. You pulled him into it.
    The topic here is about the helpdesk, and not about one particular thread in it.

    You posted the thread to begin with. Bad example I guess.


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    #85
    GuanYin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    auerillo wrote: »
    It seems that Gandalf seemed to be under the impression he was the moderator of Airsoft and Photography at the time. You say he was a moderator of politics at the time?

    I was very deliberate in my phrasing and my choice of words yet again you have tried to mis-portray the situation and you wonder why you have no success with complaints.

    So just for clarity I said Gandalf was mod of "Politics Mods" at the time. Not Politics. He had Politics on his forum mod list (you can mod multiple fora... as I do).
    I introduce this as Beruthiel stated that "The only Mods who get to comment in a particular thread are the ones who moderate the forum the OP is discussing", which seems to be contradicted by the evidence here, as Gandalf himself says he is not a politics moderator. Its a small point and not one particularly worth labouring.
    Generally yes.

    But what kind of system would we operate if say, some unscrupulous person were to come along and totally mis-represent a PM conversation they had with someone without that other person being allowed to clarify the misrepresentation.

    This seems to be what you're advocating. You appear to suggest that you should have been allowed to mis-represent Gandalf as you did without Gandalf being allowed or able to clarify the comments you attributed to him.

    In any case, its not relevant to the point that I was making which was, and is, that in any one topic in the helpdesk, its one non-moderator making a complaint up against a number of moderators, which might seem unbalanced and unfair.

    Well if you make a complaint fairly and honestly I don't see why it matters? The more mods that can help (it is helpdesk) the better.

    What it isn't is some kind of judicial system, you seem to think this is the case.
    Looking across the threads, it seems that the moderators in a thread often back up each other, and the non moderator is not in a position to ask for help except from the moderators.

    Why do they need back up? If your point is fair and honest it should stand alone without need for tag team.

    In terms of moderators, well... sometimes it takes two or three to explain the chain of events, often moderation comes with consultation.

    I often carry out moderation after consulting my fellow mods. When I am then accused of making a bad call, my co-mods (thankfully) come in and say it was a joint call and the brunt of the complaint is not mine to bear.
    The topic here is about the helpdesk, and not about one particular thread in it.
    You made it about the thread in your first post here.


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    #86
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    auerillo wrote: »
    I
    In any case, its not relevant to the point that I was making which was, and is, that in any one topic in the helpdesk, its one non-moderator making a complaint up against a number of moderators, which might seem unbalanced and unfair. .

    except for this one. And this one. And this one. And this one. Oh and this one. And this one. Oh yeah and this one. Also this, this, this, this and this one. Oh yeah and This one.

    sorry, forgot about this one and this one.


    hmmm. Auerillo, are you sure you're clear on the meaning of the word "any"?


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    #87
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    Hobbes wrote: »
    Actually he says he was mod of the "Politics mods". Some forums have special cases in regards to moderators and may have a hidden forum to discuss moderator issues just related to that forum. Politics and Personal Issues spring to mind.

    You PM'ed Gandalf to begin with, so he was well within his right to comment on that thread. You pulled him into it.



    You posted the thread to begin with. Bad example I guess.

    Apologies if I am not up to speed on the various levels of moderators, and unaware of the difference between moderator of politics mods (i've never even heard of this before), and a politics moderator, and why gandalf didn;t say he was enterint the discussion as moderator of the politics mods seems unclear.

    In any case, as mentinoed it really is not the substantive issue and not worth labouring, and its not relevant to the point that I was making which was, and is, that in any one topic in the helpdesk, its one non-moderator making a complaint up against a number of moderators, which might seem unbalanced and unfair.

    I am not interested in going downm teh cul de sac of one particular thread, and if some are unable to use an example from one thread to make a point about the helpdesk in general, I can't prevent them from doing that.


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    #88
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    auerillo wrote: »
    Apologies if I am not up to speed on the various levels of moderators, and unaware of the difference between moderator of politics mods (i've never even heard of this before), and a politics moderator, and why gandalf didn;t say he was enterint the discussion as moderator of the politics mods seems unclear.

    if you're going to argue a case, shouldn't you understand it first?


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    #89
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    tbh wrote: »
    except for this one. And this one. And this one. And this one. Oh and this one. And this one. Oh yeah and this one. Also this, this, this, this and this one. Oh yeah and This one.

    sorry, forgot about this one and this one.


    hmmm. Auerillo, are you sure you're clear on the meaning of the word "any"?

    Sure, we can all find specific examples of threads which back up our case. I'm really interested in discussion rather than a polarised argument.

    If you arguement is that the threads where its one moderator and one non moderator only who take part in a discussion form the overwhelming number of threads, then the evidence simply does not support that. But this isn't clear as you don't say what your argument is, only that you have found 15 threads where that seems to be the case, and you seem to have ignore the rest of the probably 1000 threads over the last 18 months or so.


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    #90
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    auerillo wrote: »
    Sure, we can all find specific examples of threads which back up our case.

    you can't.
    , only that you have found 15 threads where that seems to be the case, and you seem to have ignore the rest of the probably 1000 threads over the last 18 months or so.

    that's every thread on the first page. you said
    that in any one topic in the helpdesk, its one non-moderator making a complaint up against a number of moderators, which might seem unbalanced and unfair.

    well there's every thread from the first page, and not one of them are as you described. Not one of them.


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    #91
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    tbh wrote: »
    if you're going to argue a case, shouldn't you understand it first?

    I'm not sure that understanding the various leves of "mods of mods" and "mods" is rthat relevant. You seem to want to nit pick and try to find fault, aan dwant to avoid discussion, so I think it best if I don't reply to your posts in future here in this thread. I come to boards to discuss and have fun, and am not interested in point scoring.


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