To the public sector bashers, I refuse 2 be made feel guilty for making a good choice

thomasj

The question that has cropped by public servants so many times but has failed to be answered was i have a mortgage to pay. The fact of the matter is that while cost of living goes down (wages and costs of goods and services) the costs of mortgages dont so if i cant pay my home is repossessed

At what stage will the bank realise that the level of repossessions and empty houses has exceeded and that renegotiating with mortgage holders, is more or less the better option than repossessing homes not being able to sell the homes. Alot of empty homes sitting out there unoccupied with no value to the banks (seen as though no money is coming in) The number of homes unoccupied is enormous and the banks need to understand that by increasing that number by repossessing them is not helping.

Why didnt this dawn on anyone the government and banks seen as though this scenario happened in britain in the 1980s.

The ordinary worker (private and public) was never even considered during any of this crisis it was the developers, bankers the government have been bailing out.

eoinbn

mountainyman wrote: »

This is repeated like a mantra on boards. The money is generated in the private sector but mostly by Foreign Multinationals brought to this country by civil servants. The indigineous private sector has vaporised our national wealth.

By "indigineous private sector" I assume you mean the property sector as I don't think anyone is really blaming the SME's for anything. If that is what you meant, i.e property sector, then yes the country is screwed because of them- and the bad policies that left them.

However it was that sector that fueled the growth in the public sector with the €10B in tax revenue that it was generating. Some of this money was used wisely(infrastructure, reducing national debt, PRF), however a lot of it was pumped into wages/tax cuts to buy votes and non essential programs like home-help.

For example our neighbour gets home-help where the someone comes and cleans the house once a week and a few other things. That would be fine if it was needed, but once when they arrived he came over to us to borrow a wheel-barrow/shovel as he wanted to mix some concrete to put down a footpath! He can't dust, but he can mix concrete!

So OP: It's not about bashing, it's about living in the real world. If you were willing to accept the pay rises in the 'good times' then you should be willing to take the pay cuts in the bad times.

woodseb

thomasj wrote: »

The question that has cropped by public servants so many times but has failed to be answered was i have a mortgage to pay. The fact of the matter is that while cost of living goes down (wages and costs of goods and services) the costs of mortgages dont so if i cant pay my home is repossessed

At what stage will the bank realise that the level of repossessions and empty houses has exceeded and that renegotiating with mortgage holders, is more or less the better option than repossessing homes not being able to sell the homes.

i don't understand what you are getting at here, interest rates are at historical lows bringing down the cost of your mortgage while repossesions are also very low at the moment with the banks doing all they can to restructure the mortgages to help the homeowner rather than reposses

if you are suggesting that the banks should write down the value of people's mortgages to help them pay you fail to underdstand that this practice will send banks to the wall and force the government to ultimately pick up the tab. they can't just go writing off the good loans when they are already struggling with the bad developers loans

Dark_lord_ire

I agree with the thread author. Most of my mates made huge money in the boom years most were tradesmen I was on just over 30 k they were on crazy money but I thought about long term now they are on dole living at home or worried about losing homes I made 59k last year I don't feel bad that I'm doing well wish everyone was. I'll probably make same this year. So what I worked for it

thomasj

woodseb wrote: »

i don't understand what you are getting at here, interest rates are at historical lows bringing down the cost of your mortgage while repossesions are also very low at the moment with the banks doing all they can to restructure the mortgages to help the homeowner rather than reposses

if you are suggesting that the banks should write down the value of people's mortgages to help them pay you fail to underdstand that this practice will send banks to the wall and force the government to ultimately pick up the tab. they can't just go writing off the good loans when they are already struggling with the bad developers loans

OK fair enough, i didn't know they were restructuring the loans where needed but my point was the amount of repossessions in recent years, the banks have lost the whole amount and have empty houses whereas if other options were included this could work. Also should the banks look at the option of renting these properties out.

gerry28

I don't think anyone is really blaming the SME's for anything

Not strictly true, many of the SME owners have tried to squeeze every penny they could get out of the public. Where I'm from no sooner has someone opened a small corner shop than their running about in a split new range rover or BMW. Selling overpriced goods and services has played its roll in reducing the competitiveness of this country.

Sean9015

thomasj wrote: »

OK fair enough, i didn't know they were restructuring the loans where needed but my point was the amount of repossessions in recent years, the banks have lost the whole amount and have empty houses whereas if other options were included this could work. Also should the banks look at the option of renting these properties out.

The problem will come if what happened in the UK in the 1980s happens here. Back then, banks had a habit of re-possessing, and selling on the property at any price. A friend of mine had a mortgage of about £50k, the house having a value of about £60k. He lost his job, bank took the house, and sold it for £30k, leaving my friend with an outstanding balance of £20k, no means to pay, and a wrecked credit history. It took him over 15 years to get clear, and he still cannot get a mortgage thanks to the knock-on problems.

The glut of property here is such that there is no sense in the banks repossessing, unless they want to engineer a situation like this. How they restructure loans is difficult to say, but the economy will pick up again, and given that their policies, aided by governments across the globe have created the mess, it is only right that they take some of the pain (in reduced profits / shareholder payouts) in the interim.

AARRRGH

achtungbarry wrote: »

I will make no apologies for making a good and sensible choice.

Good and sensible if you have little ambition and don't mind working in a depressing office.

No thanks.

eire2009

Nobody I know in the public sector has a take home pay of 26k there all on way over 5ok with overtime plus I used to work in the public sector and left because all I experienced was curruption, money been thrown away, and complete and utter boardom I used to read 5 papers a day and whatever magaines i could get my hands on..

Sure the money was good, work was handy but after 3 years of it I felt like I was being wasted In it and the skills I had learnt were useless in the real world.

If you go from private to public you`ll stay in the public sector
but if one of your first jobs were in the public sector the private sector looks appealing to people who actually want to spend there day working and not just looking busy and defending what they do all day...

Yenwod

eire2009 wrote: »

Nobody I know in the public sector has a take home pay of 26k there all on way over 5ok with overtime

My take home pay is approx 22740 - I work full time and I don't have an option of overtime. So I'm nowhere near 50k!!

otwb

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's recycling, though - you're being taxed on our taxes, if you like.

Strange idea. We work, and get paid for it, and pay the same taxes as you do.

Using your logic we essentially pay for ourselves

(unless taxes are separated and private sector taxes go to pay wages and public sector taxes are used for road building. In which case we should toll all private sector road users)

...point is can we please get over this attitude that the private sector pay for the public sector. Its all tax which is used to pay for services that the market economy won't deliver due to lack of profitability. Society and the economy cannot survive without both the public and private sectors. Get over the them and us stupidity and realise that we are all needed to keep the country going. If employers are short on funds then people must take pay reductions or be let go - regardless of whether your employer is the government or an american multinational.

otwb

AARRRGH wrote: »

Good and sensible if you have little ambition and don't mind working in a depressing office.

No thanks.

You are so right.

Who would want to be eligible for jobs throughout the country and in Europe, with multiple internal and external job and promotion opportunities - all with relative security of tenure, a chance to make a real difference to the running of the country, great work-life balance and a kick-ass pension at the end of it all...

..and if you decide you don't like that, then its easier to get a job outside the public sector than to get in to it in the first place.

AARRRGH

otwb wrote: »

You are so right.

Who would want to be eligible for jobs throughout the country and in Europe, with multiple internal and external job and promotion opportunities - all with relative security of tenure, a chance to make a real difference to the running of the country, great work-life balance and a kick-ass pension at the end of it all...

You can get all that in the private sector, and there's no way you're going to convince me ambitious people want to work in the civil service. I contracted in various civil service offices and it was quite an eye opener. I would describe it as bitter, angry people waiting to die.

I know the private sector isn't perfect, but I have all those things you say are so great about the civil service, and I earn more money.

Anyway, I don't think the public service are to blame for this countries problems. That's just retarded.

Scofflaw

otwb wrote: »

That's recycling, though - you're being taxed on our taxes, if you like.

Strange idea. We work, and get paid for it, and pay the same taxes as you do.

Using your logic we essentailly pay for ourselves

(unless taxes are separated and private sector taxes go to pay wages and public sector taxes are used for road building. In which case we should toll all private sector road users)

Er, no - the reason being that the work done by the public sector would not be profitable. To put it another way, inputs exceed output, which is why that work is paid for out of taxes.

Taxes, in essence, are the government taking some of the profit from the private sector - those taxes are then used to pay for the unprofitable services provided by the public sector.

So the private sector generates €100 in profit, the government takes €25 in taxes - the public sector is paid €20 of that, and taxed €5 of that. However, that €5 comes out of the €25 originally taxed out of the private sector*. Hence, recycling.

*€4 of that can be put back into the public sector, and taxes of €1 extracted from it, and so on...

otwb wrote: »

...point is can we please get over this attitude that the private sector pay for the public sector. Its all tax which is used to pay for services that the market economy won't deliver due to lack of profitability. Society and the economy cannot survive without both the public and private sectors. Get over the them and us stupidity and realise that we are all needed to keep the country going. If employers are short on funds then people must take pay reductions or be let go - regardless of whether your employer is the government or an american multinational.

Sure, except that you didn't show that the private sector doesn't pay for the public sector - instead, as you say above, the private sector agrees to be taxed in order for the government "to pay for services that the market economy won't deliver due to lack of profitability". That is to say, the private sector does pay for the public, and has the right to demand value for money - which public sector employees share insofar as they are tax payers.

This isn't about "public versus private" opposition. This is about the different mechanisms by which competitiveness and value for money are enforced on a bloated and uncompetitive economy - private and public.

The private sector will have its competitiveness restored by the painful Darwinian processes of redundancies, bankruptcies, and pay reductions. That's unavoidable, because individual businesses can only make reductions or go out of private business (by bankruptcy, relocation, or nationalisation).

The public sector can only have its competitiveness restored by an act of political will (because the civil service is managed by the government). It must do so, unless we are willing to get to the point where the whole country is bankrupt (not something that happens withthe private sector).

So, while we have no choice about taking our medicine, or the form in which it comes, the public sector does. It is quite possible for the government not to make the act of political will necessary to reduce public sector costs until it's too late and the whole country goes into receivership (the IMF). It is quite possible for the public sector to resist the cuts the government proposes making right up to that point. IMF control would impact us all, both public and private sector - but the decision is not in our hands.

It's up to the public sector to agree cuts - otherwise the country will go down, taking us all with it. So far, you're not displaying any real willingness to row in. Marches and demonstrations against the taste of your medicine will not impress those of us who have no choice in the matter.

cordially,
Scofflaw

*Honey*

eire2009 wrote: »

Nobody I know in the public sector has a take home pay of 26k there all on way over 5ok with overtime plus I used to work in the public sector and left because all I experienced was curruption, money been thrown away, and complete and utter boardom I used to read 5 papers a day and whatever magaines i could get my hands on..

Sure the money was good, work was handy but after 3 years of it I felt like I was being wasted In it and the skills I had learnt were useless in the real world.

If you go from private to public you`ll stay in the public sector
but if one of your first jobs were in the public sector the private sector looks appealing to people who actually want to spend there day working and not just looking busy and defending what they do all day...

That is your experience... I've worked since I was 14, in both the public and private sector, neither vastly different in my experience. In the public sector, I work my ass off... I would never get the time to read a newspaper (bar the fact I would never do that anyway, I'd rather ask for work if that was the case). I find it difficult to take leave as work piles up when I'm away and I still have to do it when I get back. At times, I've even had to come in when ill enough to be off sick because the work needed to be done. I pride myself on my work and I give 110% at all times. This attitude that public service workers are all lazy schmoes may be the truth for some, but not for all.

In my experience, the fat lies at the top of the structure - the numerous amount of managers, some with no management experience at all. In my place, I have a higher qualification/Degree than two of my three bosses and I often have to act in an advisory capacity with logistical problems despite not being a manager myself.

*Honey*

otwb wrote: »

Strange idea. We work, and get paid for it, and pay the same taxes as you do.

Using your logic we essentially pay for ourselves

(unless taxes are separated and private sector taxes go to pay wages and public sector taxes are used for road building. In which case we should toll all private sector road users)

...point is can we please get over this attitude that the private sector pay for the public sector. Its all tax which is used to pay for services that the market economy won't deliver due to lack of profitability. Society and the economy cannot survive without both the public and private sectors. Get over the them and us stupidity and realise that we are all needed to keep the country going. If employers are short on funds then people must take pay reductions or be let go - regardless of whether your employer is the government or an american multinational.

+1

Scofflaw

*Honey* wrote: »

That is your experience... I've worked since I was 14, in both the public and private sector, neither vastly different in my experience. In the public sector, I work my ass off... I would never get the time to read a newspaper (bar the fact I would never do that anyway, I'd rather ask for work if that was the case). I find it difficult to take leave as work piles up when I'm away and I still have to do it when I get back. At times, I've even had to come in when ill enough to be off sick because the work needed to be done. I pride myself on my work and I give 110% at all times. This attitude that public service workers are all lazy schmoes may be the truth for some, but not for all.

In my experience, the fat lies at the top of the structure - the numerous amount of managers, some with no management experience at all. In my place, I have a higher qualification/Degree than two of my three bosses and I often have to act in an advisory capacity with logistical problems despite not being a manager myself.

I'd agree with that to some extent. However, it isn't about how hard you're working. No matter how hard the public sector works, we still can't afford it, and the private sector is still paying for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

eire2009

Well im on about the 50k+ that somehow mange 50k+ overtime aswell

gerry28

Good and sensible if you have little ambition and don't mind working in a depressing office.

I have to agree with this statment, Its a fairly depressing place to work. The atmosphere in my office is a strange mixture of retirement home dullness crossed with an uneasy air of paranoia brought about by all the back stabbing and bitching.
But its safe and it pays the bills.

PeakOutput

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am fed up with being scapegoated for the country's ills.

I am constantly hearing "You don't know how great you have it with a secure job, great pension etc.......

The answer is........... Yes I do know how lucky I am and hell yes I appreciate it.

And here's the thing, that's one of the major reasons I joined the public service three years ago.

I was told I was mad by my friends I was mad and that I could earn much more in private sector, which I could have.

But instead of thinking about what I could earn now I thought ahead. I thought ahead to the day when things wouldn't be so good and I knew that a public service job was the safest option long term.

This is why I refuse to be made feel guilty for having a relatively secure if not brilliantly paid job (26k).

I made my choice. I chose the public sector. I thought long term. And damn it, I made the right decision and I make no apologies for that !

I went through a very tough interview process, went back to learn Irish and went up against 250 other candidates and I got that secure job. Again I refuse to be made feel guilty.

As for the levy, I am more than prepared to pay my levy and do my bit and more again if needed down the line.

I favour freezing increments for as long as is needed.

I favour making public servants more sackable because yes there are people in the public service at all levels who I would sack today starting with the fat arse do nothings at the top as followed by those lower down the ranks. If you do a good job, you have nothing to worry about, if you are a lazy f###er..... Adios !

So no, I don't live in a bubble and yes I do know how lucky I am but I make no apologies for it.

Again, I made my choice.

To those whinging about how great we have it, why didn't you join the public service if you think it is great ? You had your chance when times were good.

I will make no apologies for making a good and sensible choice.

no one is asking you to apologise for anything your taking the changes and sucking them up like the rest of the country. its your union / people you work with who are in a union that should be ashamed of themselves

Macha

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'd agree with that to some extent. However, it isn't about how hard you're working. No matter how hard the public sector works, we still can't afford it, and the private sector is still paying for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Surely efficiency counts for something..?

(I totally support the pension levy)

eire2009

gerry28 wrote: »

The atmosphere in my office is a strange mixture of retirement home dullness crossed with an uneasy air of paranoia brought about by all the back stabbing and bitching.
.

mine was the pits after 10-20 years working with each other the older guys hated each other it was madness everything was ammo for them...
it was a good job, good pay but i didnt want to end up like them so I left and now I ave no job but im much healthier and have my sanity haha

Scofflaw

taconnol wrote: »

I'd agree with that to some extent. However, it isn't about how hard you're working. No matter how hard the public sector works, we still can't afford it, and the private sector is still paying for it.

Surely efficiency counts for something..?

(I totally support the pension levy)

Hm. If we have level X of public services (say a six-month hospital waiting list) at current cost €Y, the problem is not how efficient that is, but that we cannot afford to pay €Y at all.

Obviously, we'll temper our irritation - or not - on the basis of the efficiency. On the other hand, efficiency has little to do with how hard people work - except that they're often negatively related.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Macha

True but if we look at the underlying reason why service X costs €Y, very often efficiency has a lot to do with it.

I agree that working hard doesn't necessarily equal working efficiently.

Scofflaw

taconnol wrote: »

True but if we look at the underlying reason why service X costs €Y, very often efficiency has a lot to do with it.

I agree that working hard doesn't necessarily equal working efficiently.

If you wanted to make the argument that we ought to be able to afford the current level of services with a reduced public sector, efficiency would be the main point. I think that's a separate argument from the issue that we can't afford the current cost of the public service.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hughs

mountainyman wrote: »

This is repeated like a mantra on boards. The money is generated in the private sector but mostly by Foreign Multinationals brought to this country by civil servants. The indigineous private sector has vaporised our national wealth.

It is repeated because there seem to be quite a lot of people out there who do not understand it. What about the performance of the Civil Servants in the Financial Regulator and Central Bank who were supposed to be policing the reckless lending of the financial system? The property developers were able to borrow vast sums on the security of inflated assets because the banks were operating in a market where the civil servant regulators were doing nothing.

achtungbarry

AARRRGH wrote: »

Good and sensible if you have little ambition and don't mind working in a depressing office.

No thanks.

I have a lot of ambition, I don't work in an office and I absolutely love my job. I love that my job is to help people and not to make money.

How many people can say that they absolutely love their jobs ?

hughs

*Honey* wrote: »

That is your experience... I've worked since I was 14, in both the public and private sector, neither vastly different in my experience. In the public sector, I work my ass off... I would never get the time to read a newspaper (bar the fact I would never do that anyway, I'd rather ask for work if that was the case). I find it difficult to take leave as work piles up when I'm away and I still have to do it when I get back. At times, I've even had to come in when ill enough to be off sick because the work needed to be done. I pride myself on my work and I give 110% at all times. This attitude that public service workers are all lazy schmoes may be the truth for some, but not for all.

In my experience, the fat lies at the top of the structure - the numerous amount of managers, some with no management experience at all. In my place, I have a higher qualification/Degree than two of my three bosses and I often have to act in an advisory capacity with logistical problems despite not being a manager myself.

I dont think there is any reasonable person out there who would suggest that everyone in the public sector is lazy. However, the impression is that there there seems to be no consequences for someone in the public sector who does not perform.

You and others may give 110% but does the structure of the organisation in which you operate work allow you to operate efficiently.

grahamo

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'd agree with that to some extent. However, it isn't about how hard you're working. No matter how hard the public sector works, we still can't afford it, and the private sector is still paying for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Private sector doesn't pay for it all, some sections of the public sector generate enough revenue to cover their own costs. These sections represent good value for money as there equivalents in other EU states would need to be heavily state funded.
I work in a section of the public sector that supplies services to industry
and I know for a fact I make more money than I'm paid so the people constantly moaning about how they 'pay for me' don't actually pay for me;)
I refuse to be made to feel guilty about being a public sector worker.
I work hard! I earn what I'm paid!
I don't get overtime!
I don't get bonuses!
I pay my taxes!
As for the "Gold plated pension " I will supposedly receive, I am a post 1995 employee. This means I pay Class A1 PRSI at around 6.5 % towards a state pension and 6.5% towards a public sector pension which will be ****e as they deduct my state pension from it. Posters conveniently forget we also have to pay for a state pension which will make up the bulk of any pension we receive. In reality post 1995 employees are paying around 13% for their pensions. I now have to pay a levy which will bring my payments up to about 20%. I don't mind paying this levy at all if it shuts up the begrudgers.
I'm also on a pay freeze for the next few years.
The private sector people on here moaning that their pensions aren't worth as much are not looking at the big picture. By the time they retire their pensions will more than likely have recovered. The financial institutions they are paying into will be taking bigger commission cuts further devaluing your pension and they will be investing in higher risk investments. Why don't you have a go at these people for f***ing up your pensions.

I'm sorry lads but you don't pay for me so find somebody else to take your troubles out on!

Scofflaw

grahamo wrote: »

The Private sector doesn't pay for it all, some sections of the public sector generate enough revenue to cover their own costs. These sections represent good value for money as there equivalents in other EU states would need to be heavily state funded.
I work in a section of the public sector that supplies services to industry
and I know for a fact I make more money than I'm paid so the people constantly moaning about how they 'pay for me' don't actually pay for me;)

Fair point - but doesn't alter the fact that it isn't the case for most of the public sector.

grahamo wrote: »

I refuse to be made to feel guilty about being a public sector worker.

I haven't asked you to.

grahamo wrote: »

I work hard! I earn what I'm paid!

So does everyone else. If the money isn't there to pay you, you'll have to take a pay cut, just like everyone else.

grahamo wrote: »

I don't get overtime!
I don't get bonuses!
I pay my taxes!

Well done.

grahamo wrote: »

As for the "Gold plated pension " I will supposedly receive, I am a post 1995 employee. This means I pay Class A1 PRSI at around 6.5 % towards a state pension and 6.5% towards a public sector pension which will be ****e as they deduct my state pension from it. Posters conveniently forget we also have to pay for a state pension which will make up the bulk of any pension we receive. In reality post 1995 employees are paying around 13% for their pensions. I now have to pay a levy which will bring my payments up to about 20%. I don't mind paying this levy at all if it shuts up the begrudgers.
I'm also on a pay freeze for the next few years.
The private sector people on here moaning that their pensions aren't worth as much are not looking at the big picture. By the time they retire their pensions will more than likely have recovered. The financial institutions they are paying into will be taking bigger commission cuts further devaluing your pension and they will be investing in higher risk investments. Why don't you have a go at these people for f***ing up your pensions.

That's a fair point also.

grahamo wrote: »

I'm sorry lads but you don't pay for me so find somebody else to take your troubles out on!

It is perfectly standard for people to be paid less than they generate. It's how the private sector operates. You can still have your wages reduced if other parts of the 'company' (in this case the public sector) are costing too much but can't be cut.

I really don't think you're getting this. It isn't about whether it's fair, it's about the inability of tax revenues to meet the wage bill. The money isn't there, so public sector workers have to take a pay cut. Fair doesn't come into it - for any of us.

What's being asked of the public sector is to take a pay cut, because tax revenues will not meet the wage bill - because like it or not the country cannot afford that wage bill. It's irrelevant who's "to blame". If the public sector acts as if they shouldn't have to take a pay cut, and opt for go-slows, blue flus, strikes and industrial action, then they're part of the problem, because they've chosen not to be part of the solution.

harshly,
Scofflaw