To the public sector bashers, I refuse 2 be made feel guilty for making a good choice

gerry28

Martyr

All of us in the public and civil service earn €300,000 p.a, get 8 weeks holidays a year and we all got in through nepotism. Also, we are not going to pay a damn cent to help put the country on the right path again.
That seems to be what alot out there think of the public sector.

Martyr

gerry28

atleast you're honest.thank you

thomasj

Martyr wrote: »

i grew up with people, just not the brightest in the world..but somehow managed to land some of the best paid office jobs in public sector.

you don't get these jobs based on merit.
all you need to know are the right people.

you don't agree?

everyone knows a government job is a well paid job for life.
you would have to do something really terrible to get sacked..and even then you'd probably get paid off very well.

its tax payers money, who the hell cares!

no, i've no evidence, just personal experiences and first hand stories of people who worked in those services and its generally accepted (atleast where i live) public sector jobs are not advertised to just anyone.

nepotism is rife in public sector.

its unfortunate theres no statistical data available on staff absenteeism in public sector, or how money is being spent..that would be excellent ammo against public sector moaners.

for example, how many staff share the same role in a department?
how many days are taken sick? holidays? how productive are these people?
and is it really necessary to have more than 1 person for that role?
are you really worth 50k?

In my own experience, in the past, i've made attempts to contact certain individuals at administrative levels in HSE,FAS and County Councils..and as i said, quite a number of times, these people were absent on "holiday" or "sick" - that was the excuse i was given..yet it was so common, so obvious these people simply weren't doing their jobs, and of course can get away with it really easily.

Try to get a hold of a recruitment officer at FAS on a friday morning, where they have a half-day, and you'll be out of luck

I have heard this argument so much yet to get into a public sector job you need to have family who can get you in. So with the public sector you have thousands sitting an exam and the top number get to move on and have an interview but I find it an insult that you have done really well and then you're told only because you have relatives in the CS you got in!

Apparently its not like that outside the CS where you have to do an interview only! (in most cases)

I am not trying to say this happens in the private sector, I am trying to say it doesn't make sense that the results of the exam that hundreds or even thousands of papers can be rigged, Is it like that with the state exams too?

Martyr

well, funnily enough, i've never seen any exams advertised

and can you please provide a copy of the exam paper?

appreciated.

thomasj

gerry28 wrote: »

Martyr

All of us in dail eireann earn €300,000 p.a, get 8 weeks holidays a year and we all got in through nepotism. Also, we are not going to pay a damn cent to help put the country on the right path again.

Sorry corrected that for you gerry! :pac::D

thomasj

Martyr wrote: »

well, funnily enough, i've never seen any exams advertised

and can you please provide a copy of the exam paper?

appreciated.

do you know where to start to look?

Naz_st

*Honey* wrote: »

1. Public sector workers also pay taxes, PRSI, VAT etc - we all pay towards taxes not just the private sector

otwb wrote: »

Strange idea. We work, and get paid for it, and pay the same taxes as you do.

Using your logic we essentially pay for ourselves

(unless taxes are separated and private sector taxes go to pay wages and public sector taxes are used for road building. In which case we should toll all private sector road users)

In terms of the difference between Public vs Private sector income taxes, think of it this way (in general):

1. There is a big cardboard box where income tax is put into and subsequent government bills are paid from.
2. The income tax from private sector employees goes into this box.
3. The public service bill is paid from this big box.
4. Take a public servant earning 50k gross, and paying 10k tax (numbers used for illustration only!)
5. Now instead of taking 50k from the box, handing it over to a public service employee and then taking 10k back and putting it back in the box, the government simply takes 40k out.
6. Ergo, the 10k difference remains in the big box that was (and still is) filled substantially from private sector income tax.

A far better argument about public servants also paying taxes to pay for themselves would be around non-income based tax (VAT, VRT, etc) which goes into the big box also. But the inescapable fact, even in this case, is that the 40k the public servant gets, with which he/she is going to pay his/her VAT/VRT still came from the big box whose initial source, down along the recursive line, is still the private sector.

Martyr

do you know where to start to look?

do i have to pay you for the answer?
or are you asking me? i wouldn't ask if i knew, would i?

hell, i'd love a 50k p.a job doing nothing.

grahamo

Naz_st wrote: »

In terms of the difference between Public vs Private sector income taxes, think of it this way (in general):

1. There is a big cardboard box where income tax is put into and subsequent government bills are paid from.
2. The income tax from private sector employees goes into this box.
3. The public service bill is paid from this big box.
4. Take a public servant earning 50k gross, and paying 10k tax (numbers used for illustration only!)
5. Now instead of taking 50k from the box, handing it over to a public service employee and then taking 10k back and putting it back in the box, the government simply takes 40k out.
6. Ergo, the 10k difference remains in the big box that was (and still is) filled substantially from private sector income tax.

A far better argument about public servants also paying taxes to pay for themselves would be around non-income based tax (VAT, VRT, etc) which goes into the big box also. But the inescapable fact, even in this case, is that the 40k the public servant gets, with which he/she is going to pay his/her VAT/VRT still came from the big box whose initial source, down along the recursive line, is still the private sector.

What about the sections of the public sector who raise revenue themselves to cover their own costs. Do you pay for these too? Do some research...Not all of the public sector is funded by the taxpayer

gerry28

Sorry corrected that for you gerry!

Good1 thomasj, its almost a perfect match too - I made them figures up to appear way over the top. My god but we are being taken for a ride by the Politicians

PeakOutput

It shouldn't! Small, mostly shabbily built houses in a relatively small European backwater should never cost more than €100k.
Unfortunately this government doesn't have a clue how to run the economy any other way so they are trying, partially, trying to prop up the bubble again and save their friends.

supply and demand this european backwater has been a very desirable place to live for the last 20 years couple that with an increasing young population and you are going to get inflation on house prices(i will say that developers were almost definitely keeping this low supply artificially so that prices were kept artificially high to an extent)

The government doesn't need the banks to do this or it doesn't need to give them money to do it if it owns the bank.

so you want the goverment to control the lending? thats fine if you believe that it would work but i personally believe that would be a terrible idea mainly because i come from a fairly right of center ideology

Banks have failed because they've been acting like casino gamblers. Confidence will come back if heads roll, top people (both government and banks) are frog marched and tough regulation put in place.

yes in the long term you are right that is how confidence will return and it is exactly what should happen. looking at things long term is not much use though if the banks are going to fail right now.

Bailing them out to the tune of billions by buying bad loans and guaranteeing the savings accounts are two different things.

i never said they werent but they are directly related. once the goverment guaranteed the savings they were tied down to either spending billions when the banks failed on those guaranteed savings that were lost OR trying to stop the banks failing in the first place. they obviously decided that bailing them out was the cheaper option

I'm not in the public service and I marched because the PAYE worker should not have to pay one cent for the stupidity, arrogance, greed and criminality of the ruling elite in this country.

so you have not benefited one cent as a result of the economic boom in this country? i dont believe that and i doubt you do either

Loosing your job or your salary being decreased is not going to help anything.

cutting jobs and salaries in the public sector will decreasae the countries running costs and decrease our budget deficit

I'm not sure what you think here contradicts what I said?
Last I heard it was 2 billion. How much of which is being given to banks again?

you said the money is there im saying a 20billion budget deficit says its not.

and 2billion is how much they plan to save by cutting costs in the public sector the actual deficit is around 20billion last i heard. there is a good post in the economics forum from the economist detailing the extent of the deficit and what would need to happen to claw it back but iv to go back to work now so iv no time to find it

Martyr

gerry28

seeing as this is anonymous forum, would you care to reveal how much you do get paid?

if we're all crazy to think you get paid too much, what is it you get?

last time i checked, "professor" drumm gets paid 300,000 p.a
sean mc grath gets roughly 200,000 p.a

not to mention the brucie "bonuses"

average working wage of person in ireland is roughly 20,000

whats yours?

ixoy

Martyr wrote: »

average working wage of person in ireland is roughly 20,000

Eh no it's not - where do you get that from?

Martyr

ixoy wrote: »

Eh no it's not - where do you get that from?

ok, so how much is it? 50k p.a? is that average?

Naz_st

grahamo wrote: »

What about the sections of the public sector who raise revenue themselves to cover their own costs. Do you pay for these too?

Read the post, I specifically said in general at the outset. Obviously, and by definition, there are exceptions to generalisations, it doesn't affect the veracity of the generalisation itself.

grahamo wrote: »

Not all of the public sector is funded by the taxpayer

That's about the same logic as my stating that not all people have 2 legs and citing amputees as examples as a rebuttal to the statement that "generally people have 2 legs". It's an accurate statement of fact, but irrelevant to the logic of the original point.

me_right_one

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am fed up with being scapegoated for the country's ills.

I am constantly hearing "You don't know how great you have it with a secure job, great pension etc.......

The answer is........... Yes I do know how lucky I am and hell yes I appreciate it.

And here's the thing, that's one of the major reasons I joined the public service three years ago.

I was told I was mad by my friends I was mad and that I could earn much more in private sector, which I could have.

But instead of thinking about what I could earn now I thought ahead. I thought ahead to the day when things wouldn't be so good and I knew that a public service job was the safest option long term.

This is why I refuse to be made feel guilty for having a relatively secure if not brilliantly paid job (26k).

I made my choice. I chose the public sector. I thought long term. And damn it, I made the right decision and I make no apologies for that !

I went through a very tough interview process, went back to learn Irish and went up against 250 other candidates and I got that secure job. Again I refuse to be made feel guilty.

As for the levy, I am more than prepared to pay my levy and do my bit and more again if needed down the line.

I favour freezing increments for as long as is needed.

I favour making public servants more sackable because yes there are people in the public service at all levels who I would sack today starting with the fat arse do nothings at the top as followed by those lower down the ranks. If you do a good job, you have nothing to worry about, if you are a lazy f###er..... Adios !

So no, I don't live in a bubble and yes I do know how lucky I am but I make no apologies for it.

Again, I made my choice.

To those whinging about how great we have it, why didn't you join the public service if you think it is great ? You had your chance when times were good.

I will make no apologies for making a good and sensible choice.

Fair play to you, but who in the private sector ever said you should feel guilty?

hughs

Naz_st wrote: »

In terms of the difference between Public vs Private sector income taxes, think of it this way (in general):

1. There is a big cardboard box where income tax is put into and subsequent government bills are paid from.
2. The income tax from private sector employees goes into this box.
3. The public service bill is paid from this big box.
4. Take a public servant earning 50k gross, and paying 10k tax (numbers used for illustration only!)
5. Now instead of taking 50k from the box, handing it over to a public service employee and then taking 10k back and putting it back in the box, the government simply takes 40k out.
6. Ergo, the 10k difference remains in the big box that was (and still is) filled substantially from private sector income tax.

A far better argument about public servants also paying taxes to pay for themselves would be around non-income based tax (VAT, VRT, etc) which goes into the big box also. But the inescapable fact, even in this case, is that the 40k the public servant gets, with which he/she is going to pay his/her VAT/VRT still came from the big box whose initial source, down along the recursive line, is still the private sector.

Naz_st - while most 5 year olds would understand what you are saying, from the replies below, it seems to be too complicated for some civil servants .

hughs

sovtek wrote: »

The banking system as it stands needs to fail. The way it is being propped up is a huge waste of money and will not solve the problem and probably make it worse.

If you honestly believe that the Irish government should let the entire Irish banking system collapse, then you are crazy.

sovtek wrote: »

Its ignorant to think that falling incomes are going to get us out of this mess. Do you think that jobs are going to be created by people having less money/no money to spend?

Falling Incomes - this is not a choice, it is an absolute fact. As I have said in previous posts, we can debate the spread of the fall in incomes but there is no question that incomes are going to fall. There is only so much we can borrow from the international money markets.

gerry28

Martyr,

I get paid €28,000 p.a. and they are taking around €1,550 per year of me with this levy.

Helix

Martyr wrote: »

well, funnily enough, i've never seen any exams advertised

and can you please provide a copy of the exam paper?

appreciated.

www.publicjobs.ie

you cant get a job in the civil service as a co without applying via there

ive never come across any jobs for family members, mainly because its the public appointment service who organise and carry out the application, examination and interview process

everything is fully transparent with regards to hiring afaik (only know this coz ive a mate who used to work in PAS)

Martyr

gerry28 wrote: »

Martyr,

I get paid €28,000 p.a. and they are taking around €1,550 per year of me with this levy.

Thats quite a bit alright, Gerry.But have you ever thought about private sector workers who may never have a pension at all?

my friend who works as night porter in hotel takes home ~20,000 p.a, he does not receive over-time, he has no pension whatsoever.

he makes enough to get by.

my flat mate who up until recently worked in small restaurant took home 17,500

some of the foreign workers i knew were only getting 300 a month in hotel work.(they went home eventually)

some of those foreigners who are still here can work 60 hours a week for 400 euro.

i would take home 23,000 p.a working in IT job as contractor.

there are many people working as contractors in private sector who have no idea whether they will have a job 1 month, 2, 6 months from now, including myself.

i have no health insurance or pension.

atleast in public sector, you're guaranteed a job, plus a reasonable payment..maybe not in comparison to some criminal elements in government. but what you get paid isn't bad.

there are alot of rotten people at the top government levels in this country and that has to change unless we want this country to fall into hands of world bankers.

however, maybe its too late?

Martyr

gerry28

i recall a story from IT contractor who was working for HSE.

He told me they were upgrading the operating systems of all the computers in a department.

The first thing they had to do was visit each employee and gather data like serial number, asset tag, applications list, hardware inventory..etc - since there was no software keeping track of all this at the time (or atleast thats what they were told)

After 4 months of gathering the information and working on the systems, they were eventually told that an "audit" company had already been paid to gather this data...

So, the HSE already had the information my friend+co were spending time gathering again before migrating the users, but didn't bother to mention it.

he also noted that in 1 job role, 2 people worked.
Their job was to find out medical insurance information from patients who had been in the hospital.

The only thing was, they already had the information...but still spent time phoning patients requesting it.
When asked why they did this, the response was "we've always done it like this" and that any change in procedure could
only mean receiving a bonus.

Also, the finance department instructed IT employees to replace hardware during an upgrade, rather than add more.

For example, if a computer system had 512MB RAM, the HSE would buy 1GB of RAM, and either dispose of the "old" 512MB RAM, or give it to the employees for free.

They would also mark down.. ~30 euro for a module even if it only costed 15 euro.

if you did ANY of these things in private sector, you'd be fired, simple as that.
no pension, no job buddy.

Martyr

just heard another story tonight about a roundabout in letterkenny, co.donegal which will cost 1.25 million euro

i'm grinning, because i can't believe it..well, it isn't surprising since the donegal county council were in charge.

i'll try get pictures of this roundabout over the weekend...so you can see where your 1.25 million euro of tax money went on.

bare in mind though, this could be a coverup for expenditure in some other area...

gerry28

Yeah the levy is coming so we will just have to accept it. I am looking forward to voting against Fianna Fail any chance I get now. I have voted for them since I was 18, not anymore though - I think they need to be in opposition for 10 to 15 years at least.

Boggle

ive never come across any jobs for family members, mainly because its the public appointment service who organise and carry out the application, examination and interview process

everything is fully transparent with regards to hiring afaik (only know this coz ive a mate who used to work in PAS)

I have heard this and in theory you may be right.

Trouble is, from what I have seen and been told, for whatever reason it doesn't seeem to work.
Some examples:
- my own brother got his first job in the public sector thanks to a neighbour
- he subsequently went for a fulltime position and only got it through a mixture of serious networking, preparation and excellling at the interview stage (his opinion is that if he didn't know the people then he wouldn't have done so well)
- there was war about the guy who cae second on the list as he was known to have done a rubbish interview but he conveniently made it high up enough to get a job (he had a well placd relative)
- that neighbours son also got a job because of his contacts, even though he is always on the doss
- my gf has gone for a number of interviews in teaching and despite the arduous 15 minute interview (thats right, the person who we allow teach and care for our kids and who cannot be subsequently fired is picked based on a measly 15 minute interview with a panel of 3 people!!) has seen a number of jobs go to those who are related to or are friends with suitable people (these places are like gossip circles so you always hear the dirt afterwards)


Its only a couple of examples I know, and hardly a decent survey of hiring practices, but it does not bode well and does not inspire confidence that the best people are hired for the job.
Could they be isolated examples? Of course.
Could I be biased? Of course.
Does that make my complaints less valid? No way of knowing, but it must surely be worrying.

Boggle

Yeah the levy is coming so we will just have to accept it. I am looking forward to voting against Fianna Fail any chance I get now. I have voted for them since I was 18, not anymore though - I think they need to be in opposition for 10 to 15 years at least

Well, in fairness, at least your holding your hand up and accepting your part in the problem. The only question I could ask is "what were you thinking??".
If we could only isolate the gene which encourages people voting for crooks, this would be a great little country:p

Tim Robbins

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am fed up with being scapegoated for the country's ills.

Listen, when the country was doing well, all we heard from the Public Service is we want this, that and the other.

If we did benchmarking now, it would be simple to make economic arguments they're all over paid. Oh no, but the only economic arguments about the public service that are valid are the ones that result in a very favourable outcome for the public service.

Listen, people in the private sector just get the chop. They get very little redundancy or warning. Some are told by text message, some find out about on holidays via the an email. The less people in the private sector, the less people there is to pay your over paid wages.

The IMF won't allow us to keep borrowing at extortionate rates, neither will the EU. That means, the exchequer must cut spending.

I agree the government has to take a hard line on all the corruption and the very well off, but to think we can't have a highly paid public service (by European standards) while we are in recessions and somehow magically bounce are way out of it, is just quite frankly, deluded.

Congrads on having the sense on opting for a cushy number. You did well and you have a better chance of meeting your morgage repayments than probably 50% of the private sector.

But that doesn't mean the rest of us can't say it's bad for the country to have so much tax payers money going on cushy numbers. People are giving out about the cushy numbers themselves, not the people who take them.

Boggle

Congrads on having the sense on opting for a cushy number.

In the original posters defence, I dont recall him implying that he took a cushy number and I if you take a step back, there is some merit in some of what he is saying.

gerry28

Well, in fairness, at least your holding your hand up and accepting your part in the problem.

That might be a stretch!! I accept I may have to help the country, much like I mite help pull a drunk from the ditch. I don't feel I played any part in the mess we are in. Also, I think money should be taken from the well off and the tax exiles.

Jim McDaid TD said last week on the radio that the government needed to drive down wages. So he let the cat out of the bag with that statment.

Lemming

gerry28 wrote: »

Jim McDaid TD said last week on the radio that the government needed to drive down wages. So he let the cat out of the bag with that statment.

Wages are being driven down in private industry, if not culled outright. The tax take from those wages funds a significant amount of the public purse. The public purse expenditure needs to fall to reflect that decrease. That's the reality.

That wages overall need to be driven down isn't letting any cat out of any bag, it should be bloody obvious. We are not a competitive economy. We are far from it, as indicated by Dell et. al. upping sticks and moving large numbers of jobs elsewhere.