Golden Circle Named

Capt'n Midnight

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/34910.stm

The former Chairman of Guinness, Ernest Saunders, and two other men were jailed for their part in the share-support scandal during Guinness's £2.6bn takeover bid.

This the golden circle businessmen knew but still went ahead anyway.

jmayo

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/34910.stmThis the golden circle businessmen knew but still went ahead anyway.

What age are you ?
That Guinness dela was in the UK, you know where they have laws that people actually enforce.
Don't you know nobody does time here for dodgy deals so the connected knwo they can pull any sh** they like and walk away.
Who went to jail after the beef tribunal ? Some minor guys.
Who went to jail over Fyffes insider trade deals, hell one guy had to be forced to resign ?

Where this story is going is a class action will be instituted by investors such as Invesco and the likes who lost over €550m in Anglo shares.
This is what Anglo are already preparing for, and the regualtor will also be a star.
Also watch Ernst and Young get their ar*** whipped if it does indeed come out that they knew about the balance sheet "management practices" been carried out by Anglo and as stated today in paper advised against telling shareholders.

asdasd

thats fine jmayo, but there are criminal cases here too.

Alan Rudock in todays Indo, also brings up the Guinness case in the UK. Either we have totally different laws, in which case investors will flee, or we dont enforce the laws in which case they will flee. The country needs criminal investigations.

asdasd

There is no evidence that the Golden 10 got anything from the country, or that they are refusing to pay back their debts???

I think they got a nationalized bank which has written off their loans, rather than a bank which went into receivership, with an administrator which called in the loans ( these loans and others) forcing them to hand over their assets - all their property - as collatoral. Seems good to me, from their point of view.

joseph brand

Gerry Conlan must be disgustingly rich.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/businessmen-to-reap-500m-fortune-in-massive-land-sale-119781.html

was acquired as agriculturally zoned, but has since been rezoned, adding hundreds of millions of euro to its value

A brown envelope, greasy handshake and re-zoning happens, 'In Your Favour', weird??

This is why the poor young people were duped into paying over the odds for houses, and taking out 100% mortgages.

jmayo

asdasd wrote: »

thats fine jmayo, but there are criminal cases here too.

Alan Rudock in todays Indo, also brings up the Guinness case in the UK. Either we have totally different laws, in which case investors will flee, or we dont enforce the laws in which case they will flee. The country needs criminal investigations.

I do believe there are criminal cases, or if there aren't then we have indeed a complete banana republic.

But look how the rich and well connected get off here.
They broke section 80 of the companies act, but now according to some it appears they are not ruled by this act like other normal companies.

As for the psoters who says the investors got nothing out of this ...
they got a free bet, if the shares had gone up they would have made a handsome profit with no real risk.
As it is they might be able to write off their losses against tax which could account for them getting 80 million tax breaks.

The whole episode stinks just like the balance sheet "management transactions".
Worse still our regulator, central bank and dept. of finance look totally complicit.

Biggest laugh I get now is, hearing financial instrument or institution is regulated by Financial regulator :rolleyes:
Might as well say, you can invest but you can't be sure if the regulator is guaranteeing everything is above board, or is just working to preserve the system and the status quo ?

PS asdasd i thought you knew better than to read the Indo :eek:

thebman

Nodin wrote: »

The problem is that Anglo financed the buy of its own shares. It told the Government that it had found investors, but neglected to mention that it was the one giving them the money to invest. The reason theres so much interest in the names is in case they're linked to Fianna Fail. The ones looking very (allegedly) fvken guilty are the few in Anglo who organised this.

I can't honestly believe they neglected to tell the government. Its more likely they were all in on it TBH.

There are too many people with connections to each other in the past for this not to have been an organised affair between all parties involved.

Obviously proving that is another thing though.

Nodin

thebman wrote: »

I can't honestly believe they neglected to tell the government. Its more likely they were all in on it TBH.

There are too many people with connections to each other in the past for this not to have been an organised affair between all parties involved.

Obviously proving that is another thing though.

Well, presumably they made some sort of submission in writing so it'll come out eventually.

medja

Diogenes wrote: »

If I was hopelessly cynical (and I should point out I've worked in news media for about four years) I'd point out (and this is only coming to me) the ST is one of the few Irish papers without a property section. Perhaps the Indo/IT/Examiner et all were worried about naming and shaming some very big advertisers and leaked it to a paper that doesn't have anything to worry about in that respect.

Whoever is pointing out to you The Sunday Times has no property section for Ireland isn't very clued in. they've had a section going for years called Home. At the height of the boom it was full of ads for houses and builders. It's now a lot slimmer now but it's still there.

NewDubliner

D.S. wrote: »

Not unless they have done anything wrong and we have concrete evidence. They are not public representatives. They have a right to privacy unless there is evidence to suggest they've done something wrong.

The transaction is highly irregular and they owe a substantial amount of money to a bank which we own. We need that money to help run the country, but it appears that the 300m of the debt is going to be written off.

If they want to protect their privacy, let them pay back what they owe.

It's not about vengence, it's about business: You borrow money, you pay it back.

The Raven.

thebman wrote: »

I can't honestly believe they neglected to tell the government. Its more likely they were all in on it TBH.

There are too many people with connections to each other in the past for this not to have been an organised affair between all parties involved.

Obviously proving that is another thing though.

It's hard to know who or what to believe at this stage. This Sunday Times article states the following:

Officials working for the Financial Regulator, the Central Bank and the Department of Finance knew in advance about a secret share deal arranged by Anglo Irish Bank last summer that has since exposed taxpayers to a potential loss of €300m.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5734201.ece

In reaction to this, Irish Times article presents a different story.

In a statement this afternoon the financial regulator said it “categorically rejects the claim that it was aware of any so called 'sweetheart deal' relating to the purchase of Anglo Irish Bank shares in 2008.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0215/breaking24.htm

The regulator’s statement said: “While the financial regulator and other authorities were aware of a large CFD (contracts for difference) position held in Anglo Irish Bank shares in 2008 and steps being taken to have it unwound, the primary concern of the financial regulator related to the security of deposit holders with Anglo Irish Bank and any stability issues that might arise from the unwinding of this position.

The question is: How much did they know?

OhNoYouDidn't

D.S. wrote: »

Not unless they have done anything wrong and we have concrete evidence. They are not public representatives. They have a right to privacy unless there is evidence to suggest they've done something wrong.



Absolutely, they may have questions to answer. All we know right now is that they have had dealings with Anglo. Definitely they should be expected to deal with all investigations. My point simply is the reporting and public attitude is prejudging the situation. We have no facts, just insinuations.



I don't really understand this comment. There is no evidence that the Golden 10 got anything from the country, or that they are refusing to pay back their debts???

Grow up.

D.S.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Grow up.

Seriously, cop yourself on mate. "Grow Up" is not a rational arguement or a logical discussion. And just because you said it, doesn't give you some kind of moral high ground.

If you can't argue the point, just stay out and get lost.

Childish way to post tbh...

D.S.

NewDubliner wrote: »

The transaction is highly irregular and they owe a substantial amount of money to a bank which we own. We need that money to help run the country, but it appears that the 300m of the debt is going to be written off.

If they want to protect their privacy, let them pay back what they owe.

It's not about vengence, it's about business: You borrow money, you pay it back.

Absolutely, completely agree that it is highly irregular.

We need them to keep maintaining their repayments in order not to further undermine Anglo. If the 300m in debt is indeed written off then it's a travesty and they should be pursued in full.

Again, as long as they pay back what they owe on time and as per the structure of the debt, then this should all go away.

This is still to my mind is an annoying sideshow from the bigger problems facing the economy.

The Raven.

Members of Sinn Fein hold a mock collection
in Dublin for bank chiefs.

I must say that I find this hilarious. I didn't know that Sinn Féin had such a sense of humour :D!!!

Source:http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lawyers-at-odds-over-unmasking-of-anglo-10-1646861.html

The article is interesting re conflicting reasons for not identifying the golden fellows. This is always the problem. On the one hand, it is vital that due process is not hindered by media coverage and speculation. On the other hand, all too often important issues get swept under the carpet and public interest diminishes.

NewDubliner

D.S. wrote: »

This is still to my mind is an annoying sideshow from the bigger problems facing the economy.

The amounts in the Anglo question are significant enough, not a side-show.

A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking serious money.

D.S.

NewDubliner wrote: »

The amounts in the Anglo question are significant enough, not a side-show.

A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking serious money.

Agreed. But again, we don't know yet if these loans to this golden circle are going or will go bad.

When I say a sideshow - I'd just like to see the opposition really tackle the Government on issues like what are we going to do with Anglo. How are we going to protect any more loans from going bad. Can we negate any further impact to the loan book from any further shocks to the property market. Can we split out the bad loans from the bank into a "bad bank" and seek in the long term to grow the business. Can we replicate some of the innovate thinking of Ulster Bank (re. the developer/home buyer mortgage package) with Anglo etc etc..

I am not sure of the legal disclosure rules, but Id like if possible if the Government could come out and say quite quickly whether these Golden Circle loans are being serviced or whether they are in danger of going bad.

Goff

Some of mates in the Media are refering to them as the "Golden Shower".

gollem_1975

joseph brand wrote: »

Gerry Conlan must be disgustingly rich.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/businessmen-to-reap-500m-fortune-in-massive-land-sale-119781.html



A brown envelope, greasy handshake and re-zoning happens, 'In Your Favour', weird??

This is why the poor young people were duped into paying over the odds for houses, and taking out 100% mortgages.

wouldn't a restriction in the supply of zoned land have lead to even higher prices during the boom?

The Raven.

gollem_1975 wrote: »

wouldn't a restriction in the supply of zoned land have lead to even higher prices during the boom?

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that there was or wasn't' a restriction of zoned land' 'during the boom'?

gollem_1975

The Raven. wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that there was or wasn't' a restriction of zoned land' 'during the boom'?

let me clarify.

the independent article in Joseph brands post referred to the rezoning of the agricultural land which increased the nominal value of the land ( i doubt if they'll get 500million for it now )

I am wondering if similar rezonings had not been granted would prices have been even higher during the boom. i.e. I don't think these rezonings are the cause of young people having to take out 100% mortgages.

thebman

gollem_1975 wrote: »

let me clarify.

the independent article in Joseph brands post referred to the rezoning of the agricultural land which increased the nominal value of the land ( i doubt if they'll get 500million for it now )

I am wondering if similar rezonings had not been granted would prices have been even higher during the boom. i.e. I don't think these rezonings are the cause of young people having to take out 100% mortgages.

That is true but corrupt practices are the reasons why most villages that are now towns have no services or anything else except massive housing estates that look hideous.

Also since a lot of houses in Ireland are empty, this was a false market, we were told it was booming etc... when really there has been over supply for some time now but they have been refusing to sell until now when nobody is willing to pay the inflated prices.

drunkmonkey

miju wrote: »

has anyone else heard who the FF TD is supposed to be?? From what I've been hearing it'll make for some interesting times when his name comes out

Seems Enda wasn't far off the mark with his comments during the week in the Dail afterall

Considering one of the golden 10 already named owns Charlie Haugheys old house i'd say there's more than one connection...

what i'm wondering is where's the Fina Gael connection, there's been a pair of them in it....one more useless than the other...

starting to warm to the thoughts of a labour, greens and sinn fein coalition.....:rolleyes:

Mr.Micro

I love Eamonn Ryans enthusiasm or is it naievety....

Anglo debtors will be pursued - Ryan
listen Sunday, 22 February 2009 19:48

The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has said the top 15 customers in Anglo Irish Bank who each owe €500 million will be pursued to repay the debts in full.

Green Party Minister Eamon Ryan said the Government was determined that all the debts would be discharged and failing this any assets provided in security for the loans would come under State control.

I will bet there were no assets put up as collateral or security, banking but not as we know it (regulated by the Financial Regulator)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0222/anglo.html

SkepticOne

gollem_1975 wrote: »

I am wondering if similar rezonings had not been granted would prices have been even higher during the boom. i.e. I don't think these rezonings are the cause of young people having to take out 100% mortgages.

Really it was the lack of zonings created an artificial scarcity which drove up land prices that in part caused the 100% mortgages as well as creating an environment of corruption.

The very concept of zoning should have been done away with long ago. Legally restricting land to agricultural use around urban areas has led to people being forced to commute extremely long distances. It has also, ironically, contributed the the blight of ribbon developments along farm road frontages. It has completely failed in its purported aim in Ireland of improving the quality of life for the people but instead led to poor land use and corruption.

Zynks

This are views for debate, not an accusation or suggestion of guilt

If a company has spare cash and wants to increase the value of its shares (or reduce liabilities) by purchasing its own shares in the market this can be done. This was done before by many large multinationals. If I remember well, Volkswagen and Microsoft have done it before. But it was (and must be) done publicly and openly.

If a company does it secretly, that is likely to be illegal/fraudulent.

If a company arranges purchases of its own shares through intermediaries (it was a loan with a single specific purpose of buying company shares), they are attempting to circumvent the law and mislead the market.

So my thought is that these "intermediaries", if they expected to obtain personal gain, they are accomplices to fraud against the market and accomplices of fraud against the shareholders of the bank (prior to nationalisation).

If the security for these loans are the shares themselves, technically, and if the overall deal had not been fraudulent, they could default the loan and loose the security and that would be it.

But if the intention of the deal was fraudulent, shouldn't they be fully accountable for the entire loan value to the extent of their personal wealth?

If the financial regulator and members of the government were aware of this, shouldn't they also be made responsible for supporting or covering fraudulent activities?

They can hardly be innocent if they signed for a loan to buy shares that would artificially inflate share value and for which loan the shares themselves were the collateral.

Another thing I am rather curious is who were the shares bought from? Was it a really smart guy who knew the shares were heading to the dump and helped facilitate the loan so he/they could cash in before it went belly up? Maybe this golden circle is just a bunch of fools after all.

The Raven.

gollem_1975 wrote: »

let me clarify.

the independent article in Joseph brands post referred to the rezoning of the agricultural land which increased the nominal value of the land ( i doubt if they'll get 500million for it now )

I am wondering if similar rezonings had not been granted would prices have been even higher during the boom. i.e.

I suppose if the rezoned lands were in shorter supply they may have been more expensive. However, a huge amount of agricultural and amenity land was rezoned around the country during the boom, and yet the prices still went up at a phenomenal rate. This resulted in vast areas of environmental destruction, and excessive, incongruous development with lack of sufficient infrastructure. This hasn’t gone away. It is merely shelved for the time being.

I don't think these rezonings are the cause of young people having to take out 100% mortgages.

Young people, desperate to start a family are vulnerable. The slick, upmarket advertising of residential properties, coupled with the availability of 100% mortgages, would be undoubtedly irresistible. These properties couldn’t have come on the market without the rezoning.

What has this got to do with the golden boys, one might ask. Plenty, I would say. Ridiculously wealthy property developers appear to be central to the problem.

Pure Mule

I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with Zynks. The bank & the 10 investors are complicit in fraud.

Zynks

The Raven wrote: »

Young people, desperate to start a family are vulnerable. The slick, upmarket advertising of residential properties, coupled with the availability of 100% mortgages, would be undoubtedly irresistible. These properties couldn’t have come on the market without the rezoning.

What has this got to do with the golden boys, one might ask. Plenty, I would say. Ridiculously wealthy property developers appear to be central to the problem.

I have no issue with an open market. If a deal is good, go for it. That is why many of us are heading up North for our shopping.

The problem I have with the whole story is how there was literally nobody helping balance things out at all. Estate agents and banks we strongly biased and rootless.

But the big culprits were the government and the press. The government for doing nothing to calm things down a bit when they could ("the fundamentals are strong...") and actually stimulating it. But the press were the real whores of the story. They sold their opinions and souls for the sake of selling property ads. Sure, they paid a couple of writers with negative views, but the flashy stuff suggested all was good.

Young and inexperienced buyers had to chance to understand what was heading their way.

The Raven.

The Raven. wrote: »

Young people, desperate to start a family are vulnerable. The slick, upmarket advertising of residential properties, coupled with the availability of 100% mortgages, would be undoubtedly irresistible. These properties couldn’t have come on the market without the rezoning.

What has this got to do with the golden boys, one might ask. Plenty, I would say. Ridiculously wealthy property developers appear to be central to the problem.

Ahem! Wrong quote or wrong author, Zynks !!