Islamic terrorism.

Overblood

When I hear the word "Islam", I and I'm sure many other people around the world think of bombs, war, blood, blown up children, 9/11 and terrorism in general. How does the Irish muslim feel about being associated with terrorism?

Simon.d

Overblood wrote: »

When I hear the word "Islam", I and I'm sure many other people around the world think of bombs, war, blood, blown up children, 9/11 and terrorism in general. How does the Irish muslim feel about being associated with terrorism?

Assuming you're Irish you should know exactly how that feels (or felt).. We used to be looked on the very same by our British neighbours..

Overblood

Simon.d wrote: »

Assuming you're Irish you should know exactly how that feels (or felt).. We used to be looked on the very same by our British neighbours..

Yeah I know exactly how it feels to be associated with our forefathers, who fought for hundreds of years against the English invasion. I feel proud to be associated with that aspect of being Irish.

DinoBot

Overblood wrote: »

Yeah I know exactly how it feels to be associated with our forefathers, who fought for hundreds of years against the English invasion. I feel proud to be associated with that aspect of being Irish.

So were you asking how Irish Muslims felt about being associated with terrorism because it doesn't bother you and you wanted to see was it the same for them ?

Jannah

Overblood wrote: »

When I hear the word "Islam", I and I'm sure many other people around the world think of bombs, war, blood, blown up children, 9/11 and terrorism in general. How does the Irish muslim feel about being associated with terrorism?

Firstly, there is no such thing as 'Islamic' terrorism- terrorism isn't ALLOWED in Islam because it involves the killing of innocent people. Just because some maniac shouts something in Arabic before he/she kills someone doesn't make them a real Muslim.

Secondly, I don't think Irish Muslims should feel in the least bit put out by people who neither have anything to do with them or are real Muslims themselves

A woman blew herself up in Sri Lanka the other day, Timothy McVeagh killed thousands in Oklahoma- yet I don't hear any calls of "HINDU terrorism" or "CHRISTIAN terrorism"

994

Jannah wrote: »

Firstly, there is no such thing as 'Islamic' terrorism- terrorism isn't ALLOWED in Islam because it involves the killing of innocent people. Just because some maniac shouts something in Arabic before he/she kills someone doesn't make them a real Muslim.

Secondly, I don't think Irish Muslims should feel in the least bit put out by people who neither have anything to do with them or are real Muslims themselves

A woman blew herself up in Sri Lanka the other day, Timothy McVeagh killed thousands in Oklahoma- yet I don't hear any calls of "HINDU terrorism" or "CHRISTIAN terrorism"

That's because the Sri Lankan civil war is fought along ethnic lines, the two sides describing themselves as Sinhalese vs. Tamil, not Buddhist vs. Hindu. McVeigh was an anarchist of some sort, he never said he killed in Jesus's name. That's why.

wes

994 wrote: »

That's because the Sri Lankan civil war is fought along ethnic lines, the two sides describing themselves as Sinhalese vs. Tamil, not Buddhist vs. Hindu. McVeigh was an anarchist of some sort, he never said he killed in Jesus's name. That's why.

They do identify themselves by religion in all the cases you mentioned. They also identify themselves along ethnic lines as well, in fact both get mixed together, which makes things far more complex.

DinoBot

Jannah wrote: »

Firstly, there is no such thing as 'Islamic' terrorism- terrorism isn't ALLOWED in Islam because it involves the killing of innocent people. Just because some maniac shouts something in Arabic before he/she kills someone doesn't make them a real Muslim.

Secondly, I don't think Irish Muslims should feel in the least bit put out by people who neither have anything to do with them or are real Muslims themselves

Would that make all suicide bombers Kafur's ? mainly due to the fact that they are not real muslims as you say.
Do you think the act causes them to fall outside of Islam or is it simply a sinful act which could be forgiven ?

Jannah wrote: »

A woman blew herself up in Sri Lanka the other day, Timothy McVeagh killed thousands in Oklahoma- yet I don't hear any calls of "HINDU terrorism" or "CHRISTIAN terrorism"

I think when the term is correct it is used:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7739541.stm

wes

DinoBot wrote: »

I think when the term is correct it is used:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7739541.stm

Hindutva terrorism would be far more accurate, as that is the ideology that drives them.

Jannah

994 wrote: »

That's because the Sri Lankan civil war is fought along ethnic lines, the two sides describing themselves as Sinhalese vs. Tamil, not Buddhist vs. Hindu. McVeigh was an anarchist of some sort, he never said he killed in Jesus's name. That's why.

Just because they shout 'God is great' doesn't mean what they're doing is Islamic OR that they are being real Muslims in doing so. As far as I'm aware there is almost definitely a religious aspect to the Sri Lankan conflict.

How about Northern Ireland? Was that not founght along religious lines? Yet I've never heard of Catholic/Protestant terrorism

DinoBot wrote: »

Would that make all suicide bombers Kafur's ? mainly due to the fact that they are not real muslims as you say.

Kafurs are people who have been presented with Islam and have rejected it- I would think that they are hypocrites, since his 'preferences' are the use of violence against innocents, which violates Islam:

A hypocrite in Islam is one who saw Islam; accepted its principles; embraced it; went along with it, but when his life style and preferences were challenged, Islam had failed with him. He knowingly wouldn't follow Islam because it would violate a certain life style that he adopted, ego, or standard that is too important to him, even though it directly violates Islam.
The difference between a hypocrite and a normal Muslim who sins, is that a hypocrite adopts an unacceptable life style and actions, and insists on following it, while a normal Muslim knows that he is wrong, tries to resist doing sins, but unfortunately sometimes, he still falls into sinning due to immaturity or physical weaknesses.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/definition_of_hypocrite.htm

DinoBot wrote: »

Do you think the act causes them to fall outside of Islam or is it simply a sinful act which could be forgiven ?

I don't think mass murder is exactly the kind of thing that can be 'forgiven'- especially when that person isn't looking for forgiveness

irishconvert

Overblood wrote: »

When I hear the word "Islam", I and I'm sure many other people around the world think of bombs, war, blood, blown up children, 9/11 and terrorism in general. How does the Irish muslim feel about being associated with terrorism?

I'm sure when many British people hear the word Irish they think of the following:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/24/newsid_2523000/2523345.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/15/newsid_2527000/2527009.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_2515000/2515667.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/8/newsid_2515000/2515113.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/17/newsid_2538000/2538147.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_2515000/2515343.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/29/newsid_2506000/2506083.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/5/newsid_2499000/2499203.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/21/newsid_2549000/2549953.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/5/newsid_2492000/2492543.stm

Abu Shakurah

Overblood wrote: »

When I hear the word "Islam", I and I'm sure many other people around the world think of bombs, war, blood, blown up children, 9/11 and terrorism in general. How does the Irish muslim feel about being associated with terrorism?

What a silly question. Should we associate you with the pedophilia that is rampant in the Irish Catholic church - grow up.

Overblood

I'm not catholic.

Overblood

irishconvert wrote: »

I'm sure when many British people hear the word Irish they think of the following:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/24/newsid_2523000/2523345.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/15/newsid_2527000/2527009.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_2515000/2515667.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/8/newsid_2515000/2515113.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/17/newsid_2538000/2538147.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/20/newsid_2515000/2515343.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/29/newsid_2506000/2506083.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/5/newsid_2499000/2499203.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/21/newsid_2549000/2549953.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/5/newsid_2492000/2492543.stm

So what? One country associates us negatively with the IRA. But most of the world loves us for fighting off the English. We have no negative stigma. The connotations of Ireland are "green, grass, cows, nature, guinness, craic, leprechauns, fighting the english invasion" etc.

Islam does have very negative connotations.

Nodin

Overblood wrote: »

So what? One country associates us negatively with the IRA. But most of the world loves us for fighting off the English. We have no negative stigma. The connotations of Ireland are "green, grass, cows, nature, guinness, craic, leprechauns, fighting the english invasion" etc.

Many countries and individuals admire the Palestinians for fighting against the Israeli occupation, myself included.

Many countries and individuals think there should have been a plebiscite to determine Kashmirs future and that armed resistance is a consequence of the failure to have one, myself included.

Of course if you're on the other side of the fence, you're going to demonise them. Its remarkably obvious, and requires no great insight.

Jannah

Overblood wrote: »

Islam does have very negative connotations.

Meh, that's your own personal opinion and I'm sure there are people out there who have already made up their minds on Muslims having been spoon fed the same rubbish through the media and determined that they are all 'evil' without even knowing one, but really that's their loss.

ChocolateSauce

I don't think "terrorist" when I hear Islam. I think Islam when I hear "terrorist" though.

Hobbes

Overblood wrote: »

Yeah I know exactly how it feels to be associated with our forefathers, who fought for hundreds of years against the English invasion. I feel proud to be associated with that aspect of being Irish.

I don't think you do at all. Obviously fairly young.

Otherwise you will remember having to go into a separate queues + area when travelling to/from the UK to everyone else going through customs.

Or prehaps the "No Irish" signs outside pubs/hotels in England.

Or being stopped and questioned for hours and then having to fill out a "Terrorist form" detailing your every move in the UK.

Or if you lived in England having to get removed from school due to the students of the school beating the crap out of you because some IRA bomb went off.

Or having to be then segregated into a catholic school not by choice.

Anyone who feels proud to be associated with that part of Irish history hasn't a clue what they are talking about or are an idiot.

Overblood

Yeah I said these words exactly: "I'm proud of separated queues in 1970s englsih airports".

I'm proud of of Irelands history and what we're known for, up to a point. Don't twist my words around to make it seem like I'm proud of people getting beat up in school!

shqipshume

Well in my view as non Muslim with friends who are Muslim.I would say i see them as completely different to the ones who consider themselves even human for the things that they have done,I actually view them as completely different Muslims who bomb and and kill in name of god or so they say,then the people who are apart of the religion and hurt no one.
But the imans or mullahs, i don't know in Arab countries don't condemn them that have heard anyway which is not very good sign,and one i did hear who did is under threat of his life or died recently.
I see people as people and if they are good they are good if they are bad then they are bad,
Why should all Muslims be thought of the same.If you have a family member who is a pedophile you don't think of the whole family the same way you feel bad for them and wish them luck,

shqipshume

Hobbes wrote: »

I don't think you do at all. Obviously fairly young.

Otherwise you will remember having to go into a separate queues + area when travelling to/from the UK to everyone else going through customs.

Or prehaps the "No Irish" signs outside pubs/hotels in England.

Or being stopped and questioned for hours and then having to fill out a "Terrorist form" detailing your every move in the UK.

Or if you lived in England having to get removed from school due to the students of the school beating the crap out of you because some IRA bomb went off.

Or having to be then segregated into a catholic school not by choice.

Anyone who feels proud to be associated with that part of Irish history hasn't a clue what they are talking about or are an idiot.

And what exactly is Your point? Are you trying to say we should be ashamed of our great great grandfathers fighting for our country and dying in our names for freedom?
Because people had to go thru a few things like that?
Its alot better than your grandfather telling you stories about been whipped to bits by some dirty scum bag and so much more horrible things
Irish have nothing to be ashamed of in regard to getting their freedom.

Get real!

ChocolateSauce

shqipshume wrote: »

And what exactly is Your point? Are you trying to say we should be ashamed of our great great grandfathers fighting for our country and dying in our names for freedom?
Because people had to go thru a few things like that?
Its alot better than your grandfather telling you stories about been whipped to bits by some dirty scum bag and so much more horrible things
Irish have nothing to be ashamed of in regard to getting their freedom.

Get real!

Nothing to be ashamed of, nothing at all? Not one thing could have been done better, not one mistake was made? I don't think hobbes is the one who needs to "get real". I call jingoism on you.

Overblood

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Nothing to be ashamed of, nothing at all? Not one thing could have been done better, not one mistake was made? I don't think hobbes is the one who needs to "get real". I call jingoism on you.

Of course there were mistakes made, but it was a necessary evil and none of us can really comment on it either way, unless your name is Macleod and were in the thick of it for the last 800 years.

Simon.d

Overblood wrote: »

Of course there were mistakes made, but it was a necessary evil and none of us can really comment on it either way, unless your name is Macleod and were in the thick of it for the last 800 years.

Yes we can comment on it..Two british soldiers were shot last night in my name as an Irish republican.. It's completely within my right to comment on, and denounce such actions... This was an undemocratic and heinous act committed by scumbags trying to destabilise the situation in the North, who were finally settling into some sort of normality.. It's disgusting, much like many other atrocities commited in the name of republicans..

Was Omagh a necessary evil?

shqipshume

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Nothing to be ashamed of, nothing at all? Not one thing could have been done better, not one mistake was made? I don't think hobbes is the one who needs to "get real". I call jingoism on you.

No my great grand father shot Bristish who were in our country and treating my people like dirt and killing them off and raping our women the civilians also who were british treated my people like ****(they were not innocent none of them) :mad: I am proud my grandad shot them. And not you or any of you so called moral smypathisers are gonna change my mind on that.;)

Nodin

Simon.d wrote: »

Yes we can comment on it..Two british soldiers were shot last night in my name as an Irish republican.. It's completely within my right to comment on, and denounce such actions... This was an undemocratic and heinous act committed by scumbags trying to destabilise the situation in the North, who were finally settling into some sort of normality.. It's disgusting, much like many other atrocities commited in the name of republicans..

Was Omagh a necessary evil?

No, because at that stage the Republican movement had gained most of its goals.

This is all getting off topic, IMO.

Hobbes

shqipshume wrote: »

And what exactly is Your point?

My point is that people seem to see one side of the issue and focus on the parts that suit their agenda. You talk about airport lines but the truth is there was a lot going on and what I listed was only what I went through. If you want even worse you only need to read what went on in NI.

Both sides. Not just one side. A lot of innocent people and a fair few crazies. But the innocent people get lumped in with the crazies. Irish people and British people are still human beings.

But we can say the same with Islam. Did you know about the countless Muslims in the UK who went to their jobs last week then went home and lived their life just like anyone else? No? Why? Because it doesn't sell papers.

I see the same issue with Northern Ireland as I do with Muslims. The majority just want to live their life but are persecuted for the actions of the minority or those done in some f'ed up country (which at least we agree on).

ChocolateSauce

shqipshume wrote: »

No my great grand father shot Bristish who were in our country and treating my people like dirt and killing them off and raping our women the civilians also who were british treated my people like ****(they were not innocent none of them) :mad: I am proud my grandad shot them. And not you or any of you so called moral smypathisers are gonna change my mind on that.;)

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard from the nationalists, and I've heard a lot. It's sad that you can take pride in the actions of violent racist thugs.

And the civilians who considered themselves British living in Ireland, not innocent? Not one? So I suppose you think half of Northern Ireland is made up of rapists then?

shqipshume

Hobbes wrote: »

My point is that people seem to see one side of the issue and focus on the parts that suit their agenda. You talk about airport lines but the truth is there was a lot going on and what I listed was only what I went through. If you want even worse you only need to read what went on in NI.

Both sides. Not just one side. A lot of innocent people and a fair few crazies. But the innocent people get lumped in with the crazies. Irish people and British people are still human beings.

But we can say the same with Islam. Did you know about the countless Muslims in the UK who went to their jobs last week then went home and lived their life just like anyone else? No? Why? Because it doesn't sell papers.

I see the same issue with Northern Ireland as I do with Muslims. The majority just want to live their life but are persecuted for the actions of the minority or those done in some f'ed up country (which at least we agree on).

We were talking about what happened before.And Irish were stood on an starved and murdered.Did not see the british stand up there and condem anything that their side did.
I am not blaming any of the innocent people who live there.But if they want british rule then move there.If they accept Irish rule then let them stay.All Ireland should be under rule of Irish people thats how i feel about it.
I have been in northern Ireland and you know what i wasnt allowed to speak with my dublin accent :rolleyes: I was told to be quiet.
You are not Irish to condem anything my family and everyones elses family did for the freedom of our country.
And i am very proud they didnt sit on their asses and be cowards and Ireland to be completly swallowed up and have disappeared.


I also saw muslims march in a western country screaming death to all.
hm and they live there and work there all their lives.
I said nothing against the muslim people.
Stop trying to compare the two.Its completly different.
Irish fought for their freedom and so our people wouldnt die off under British hands.
Those terrorists who say they are of muslim faith are just inhuman and they kill everyone.

shqipshume

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard from the nationalists, and I've heard a lot. It's sad that you can take pride in the actions of violent racist thugs.

And the civilians who considered themselves British living in Ireland, not innocent? Not one? So I suppose you think half of Northern Ireland is made up of rapists then?

My great granddad wasnt racist.
Are you even Irish? I very much doubt it.
Your a disgrace to Irish blood and history if you are.
I will take pride in my family killing anyone who tries to destroy my Irish heritage or my history or language.

And stop trying to twist what i said,its you who is ignorant,anyone with ounce of cop on knows what i am saying;)

irishconvert

shqipshume wrote: »

I will take pride in my family killing anyone who tries to destroy my Irish heritage or my history or language.

You sound like an extremist! Do you advocate killing all the "Irish" people on boards who think learning Irish is a waste of time and it should be abolished from the school curriculum?

shqipshume

irishconvert wrote: »

You sound like an extremist! Do you advocate killing all the "Irish" people on boards who think learning Irish is a waste of time and it should be abolished from the school curriculum?

Ofc not.Some people have not got the ability to learn Irish and struggle,and its understandable as when u speak English everyday is very hard also.My own son has great difficulity with Irish,But he does have some and its a true blessing he has that choice to have it aas apart of his life.Irish language is beautiful and people all over the world believe so.But no one has the right to call for abolishment of Irish in school circulium,But some people who don't need it or don't wish to have it anymore that's their choice.Freedom of choice that's why our great grandfathers etc,, died in our name,I am sure they would be saddened to hear that some Irish people don't wish to keep their language alive but that's entirely up to them.
That is silly comment to make,I was lashing out at people who are spitting on their Irish heritage

ChocolateSauce

shqipshume wrote: »

My great granddad wasnt racist.
Are you even Irish? I very much doubt it.
Your a disgrace to Irish blood and history if you are.
I will take pride in my family killing anyone who tries to destroy my Irish heritage or my history or language.

And stop trying to twist what i said,its you who is ignorant,anyone with ounce of cop on knows what i am saying;)

I'll start from the bottom...I know what you're saying, I understand where you're coming from, I simply fundamentally disagree.

Enjoy your killing, thuggery and murder. You are in fact a racist if you think "blood" has anything to do with anything. I am Irish, and I am ashamed to be linked to people like you, who think that in order to be Irish I have to fall into your narrow and stupid definition, based on race and ancestry and one's attachment to specific aspects of a specific culture. I don't think being a racist, jingoistic murder-supporting nationalist is or should be tied into what it means to be Irish, and if it was it would be a disgrace to itself.

But no one has the right to call for abolishment of Irish in school circulium,

I do, and I claim that right. Who are you to say what I have and have not got a right to say? As it happens, I don't think Irish should be abolished in schools, just made optional. You bang on about freedom in one hand and then spout anti-freedom in the other, saying that I haven't got a right to "spit on my heritage".

What, are Canada and Australia not free enough for you?

In your eyes, I may be a disgrace to the Irish, but to me, you're a disgrace to human species. We're not going to agree, so I suggest we leave it at that.

And finally, I highly, highly doubt your grandfather wasn't racist.

shqipshume

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I'll start from the bottom...I know what you're saying, I understand where you're coming from, I simply fundamentally disagree.

Enjoy your killing, thuggery and murder. You are in fact a racist if you think "blood" has anything to do with anything. I am Irish, and I am ashamed to be linked to people like you, who think that in order to be Irish I have to fall into your narrow and stupid definition, based on race and ancestry and one's attachment to specific aspects of a specific culture. I don't think being a racist, jingoistic murder-supporting nationalist is or should be tied into what it means to be Irish, and if it was it would be a disgrace to itself.



I do, and I claim that right. Who are you to say what I have and have not got a right to say? As it happens, I don't think Irish should be abolished in schools, just made optional. You bang on about freedom in one hand and then spout anti-freedom in the other, saying that I haven't got a right to "spit on my heritage".

(That now was just :eek: spit away u have been,i ain't stopping you:D)


What, are Canada and Australia not free enough for you?

In your eyes, I may be a disgrace to the Irish, but to me, you're a disgrace to human species. We're not going to agree, so I suggest we leave it at that.

And finally, I highly, highly doubt your grandfather wasn't racist.

I stand by my people for fighting and yes for killing to save their people what ever way that maybe have turned out.Same as i stand by any other Nationality that has been oppressed by regimes such as British empire.
War is war,they entered our lands people died by hands of Our Irish soldiers in our name.You may not like that but its true to fact.
I will not dirty on my people who died for me to live.As in fact more Irish died under the terrorism of the British flag than British did under the Irish.;)
And when did i say people haven't got the right to choose whether they do Irish or not :rolleyes: I said no one has a right to call on it been abolished its apart of who we are and other parents want their kids to keep it alive more so than not,If others children they wish not to do it then so be it that's their business.

You don't know who my grandad and i thank you not to say a thing about him.
How many generations Irish are you .Or are you of another line from another country?Because if you have generations of Irish blood then don't think your family we-rent oppressed and beaten by British and treated like a dog in street,or they didn't support the the Irish rebels because oh yes they did;)

Overblood

If a country is invaded, the following happens:

a) Things get f**ked up.

I don't condone the recent killings by the way, but our forefathers did the right thing.

Hobbes

Ok can we bring the thread back on topic now. thanks.

getz

shqipshume wrote: »

No my great grand father shot Bristish who were in our country and treating my people like dirt and killing them off and raping our women the civilians also who were british treated my people like ****(they were not innocent none of them) :mad: I am proud my grandad shot them. And not you or any of you so called moral smypathisers are gonna change my mind on that.;)

now this is the the problem -lets get the facts in order,,, the british was you the irish,not another nation if your greatgrandad shot people he was a terrorist who was hated by 95% of the people of ireland at that time most people that these people shot and killed was irish men and girls going about there daily lives. stop listening to the lies ,when you grow up and become an adult maybe you will be able to think for yourself

shqipshume

getz wrote: »

now this is the the problem -lets get the facts in order,,, the british was you the irish,not another nation if your greatgrandad shot people he was a terrorist who was hated by 95% of the people of ireland at that time most people that these people shot and killed was irish men and girls going about there daily lives. stop listening to the lies ,when you grow up and become an adult maybe you will be able to think for yourself

No you get a book and read.Or go into a library and get an education.Nothing what i was told was lies.And i also learned in school.
Why is there so many loyalists on these flipping boards:mad:
And i salute my grandad and all the men and women who gave their lives for the people of Eire, and so does most of real Irish people.:cool: You are so full of ****.you think i am gonna allow you to speak that way about my grandfather.Go to a pub sit there and spout your mouth off about the men and women who fought for our country please do
People like you are not seen nor heard.:D
Don't reply to me again cause if you are Irish which i am sure you are not,you are a traitor.


And back to real subject of the thread.
People who are not Islamic terrorists but they are people who are lunatics who use their religion for justification of their atrocitites.

Hobbes

hmmm, it appears people are not capable of going back on topic so lets do this the old fashioned way.