Garda Earns €80,990 in overtime!

Rowley Birkin QC

pirelli wrote: »

Was it chasing motor convictions and hanging around state buildings or doing croke park.

We should simply only pay this type of overtime for valuable work and should not pay high overtime for work that an obvious few gardai could be employed to do or even not pay as much overtime for simply duties of presence in
functions etc.

Overtime for working on crime cases such as theft etc.. should be rewarded whilst croke park and other Nixers.

Yeah there really is no need for Gardai at a venue that holds 80,000 people in a confined space, a lot of them with beer on board and a high proportion of children who get lost and whatnot. The England v. Ireland soccer riot at Lansdowne a few years back is a prime example of what can go wrong, I was at that match and the Gardai did sterling work that night.

How is it a "nixer" when the Guard is on Duty? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

nice_guy80 wrote: »

most of that bill will be paid by Shell anyway

How do you make that out?

cast_iron

bigkev49 wrote: »

How is it a "nixer" when the Guard is on Duty? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I think a deal was made where the Croker must pay for the Gardai on duty on match days. Hence the 'nixer' reference.

johnnyskeleton

Boston wrote: »

Ironically recruitment is scaled back to save money. Same situation exists in the prison service. When you need a minimum level of service and you're not able to meet it from existing resources nor allowed to hire new staff, overtime is your only solution. I don't begrudge the Garda in question, but rather the system of management.

I'd agree with this. That garda must have worked 50 overtime hours every week. It's not a pleasant life at all when you work 80+ hours p.w. Gardai regularly have to work double shifts and come into court on their days off.

The situation we have now is that not only are they not hiring new gardai, but they are also cutting overtime. So what we are going to see is gardai either working overtime for free or else not having enough time to deal with all their cases. This is a big problem for the country.

Dob74

Hillel wrote: »

Yet another example of inadequate goverance and lack of cost control in the public sector. One Mayo officer earned €80,990 in overtime in 2008. The total garda overtime bill for 2008 was €113m.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5781039.ece
The message has to go out loud and clear that this level of profligate waste is NOT acceptable. All of us are already paying the cost - and will shortly pay a lot more. There are options readily available, all that is lacking is the political will to implement them. There are THREE "Ministers of State" (Barry Andrews, Conor Lenihan, and John Moloney), in addition to Minister Dermot Ahern, with an interest in this area. (http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Our_ministers) Lets assume that Dermot is fully occupied with Equality and Law Reform. I know, maybe not the highest priority right now, but, lets be fair and give him the benefit of the doubt.) Surely, Barry, Conor or John could find some time to take a look at this. (Or maybe its all a false alarm and the country really can afford the €113m bill!)

If this were the private sector this figure would be causing alarm right up to director level. The line manager, and others in the chain, could expect hard questions as to why this occured. Suitable measures would be implemented to ensure no recurrance. Ah but, this is public sector la, la, land. Perofrmance bonuses were probably handed out for the extra productivity! Next time you see Dermot, Barry, Conor or John ask them about this. Demand action, demonstarble, visible, effective action. If they mutter about the difficulties,etc., tell them that this is what WE pay them for. Suggest that if they can't address this it is time that they step dowm as ministers/ministers of state. (At least we'd get some saving.)

What's the problem? If he worked the hours he should get paid. 80k is peanuts compared to what has been happening in banks.

*Honey*

therecklessone wrote: »

Overtime is one of the cheapest forms of labour available, particularly if overtime is not included in reasonable pay for pension purposes.

How can it be cheaper? If they employed a new garda, they'd be at the bottom of the scale, so probably earning less than this one - even if he/she is at the bottomo of the scale too, which I'd doubt, overtime would still be paid at more than the hourly rate.

Assuming this person earned 80K a year, there's obviously a requirement for additional gardai for that area ... at least one more. So surely paying one new recruit would be cheaper than paying an already employed garda the additional overtime? How can it be one of the cheapst forms of labour avaialble?

luckat

My only worry about this is that it's not at all healthy to work that kind of level of hours. The poor man (or woman) must have no family life, must be completely exhausted the whole time.

No one really takes workaholism seriously, but it work can be as addictive as any drug, and just as harmful if taken to excess.

However, I wouldn't be indignant, personally, about someone working hours and being paid for them. I'm indignant about the 'top' bank managers and their carry-on, yes, and about our leaders and their inability to lead, and the money both these groups are paid.

*Honey*

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Are you seriously trying to suggest that you are surprised that in the middle of a hiring freeze overtime doesn't increase?

I work in another area of the public service and there is no only a recruitment ban but also a ban on overtime too.

OhNoYouDidn't

cast_iron wrote: »

I think a deal was made where the Croker must pay for the Gardai on duty on match days. Hence the 'nixer' reference.

all sports pay for the cop presence. the issue being that they decide the level they need and bill you for it and you have no say.

Turner

FTA69 wrote: »

The small Republican group Éirigi gets carloads of Branchmen at their events, as well as them tailing members and engaging in general harassment (stop and search etc), this group has absolutely no connection to any armed group so why the need to waste taxpayers money to pay detectives to sit around in Ford Mondeos all day?

The state are obliged to protect the public from any form of terroirist or subversive group by collecting intelligence, stopping and searching where suspicion arises and monitoring their movement.

God if they didnt monitor these groups the public would be up in arms!! (excuse the pun)

The Eirigi party seeks a British withdrawal from Ireland and the establishment of a 32-county republic.

Now we know what class of people these types of movements attract, the same type that Sinn Fein appeals to and the same type that can be found in any pub at half 10 every morning.

Dole taking criminals who all see themselves as republican soldiers. And I believe Eirigi was involced in the peaceful protests in Rossport.

So peaceful that some of the protestors have attacked, harrassed and threatened the families of their own Irish police force down there.

Im speaking from experience and from speaking first hand to many Gardai who worked down there.

Believe me i have met hundereds of them in my career.

therecklessone

*Honey* wrote: »

How can it be cheaper? If they employed a new garda, they'd be at the bottom of the scale, so probably earning less than this one - even if he/she is at the bottomo of the scale too, which I'd doubt, overtime would still be paid at more than the hourly rate.

Assuming this person earned 80K a year, there's obviously a requirement for additional gardai for that area ... at least one more. So surely paying one new recruit would be cheaper than paying an already employed garda the additional overtime? How can it be one of the cheapst forms of labour avaialble?

Costs associated with recruitment, basic recruit training, ongoing training once attested, 30+ years of salary, employers PRSI, pension contributions etc etc.

It all adds up.

You can argue that there's a greater benefit in recruiting more Gardai, but the value of that is spread over a long period of time, whereas the initial outlay involved in recruitment/training is felt in revenue terms quite early.

Daroxtar

FTA69 wrote: »

The small Republican group Éirigi gets carloads of Branchmen at their events, as well as them tailing members and engaging in general harassment (stop and search etc), this group has absolutely no connection to any armed group so why the need to waste taxpayers money to pay detectives to sit around in Ford Mondeos all day?

Eirigi may have the noblest and most honorable membership of any political party, but when the words "small republican group" come up for a lot of people alarm bells go off and its almost a natural reaction to associate them with other words such as " breakaway" or "dissadent republican".

Eirigi is a relative newcomer on the political scene and the garda are entitled to check them out to see whether they are legit or not. We dont have a direct equivelant to CIA,NSA, MI5/6 etc. but if we did they would almost certainly take an interest. Likewise political activists in any country can expect interest from the state security agencies.

State security is hardly a trivial matter and its a possibility the Gardai are keeping an eye on things because someone reported something which they are obliged to investigate.

yoshytoshy

therecklessone wrote: »

You can argue that there's a greater benefit in recruiting more Gardai, but the value of that is spread over a long period of time, whereas the initial outlay involved in recruitment/training is felt in revenue terms quite early.

Why the need for so many clerical staff in the public sector so ?

therecklessone

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Why the need for so many clerical staff in the public sector so ?

I'm sorry, you've lost me...

yoshytoshy

therecklessone wrote: »

I'm sorry, you've lost me...

It seems from what you're suggesting that there is justification in paying so much overtime. When more garda is what the country needs.

Can't understand the time element of things ,sooner is better as the country isn't getting any smaller.

Mr. Presentable

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'd agree with this. That garda must have worked 50 overtime hours every week. It's not a pleasant life at all when you work 80+ hours p.w. Gardai regularly have to work double shifts and come into court on their days off.

The situation we have now is that not only are they not hiring new gardai, but they are also cutting overtime. So what we are going to see is gardai either working overtime for free or else not having enough time to deal with all their cases. This is a big problem for the country.

Why must he? He might, but if he was at the top of the scale, c€45,000.00 he'd only have to do an additional 20-ish hours at double time.

Rowley Birkin QC

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Why the need for so many clerical staff in the public sector so ?

Can't remember the exact statistics but I read lately that Ireland has one of the smallest civil services per capita in Europe.

Hillel

luckat wrote: »

My only worry about this is that it's not at all healthy to work that kind of level of hours. The poor man (or woman) must have no family life, must be completely exhausted the whole time.

You are right, it is not healthy for the individual involved. But it goes well beyond that. It is reasonable to surmise that this Garda was in a high-stress situation where coolness and a steady judgement were essential. That does not sit well with excessive working hours. As I said earlier, this should have rung alarm bells, long before it reached this level. I wonder just what kind of checks are in place to avoid overtime, at this level.

luckat wrote: »

However, I wouldn't be indignant, personally, about someone working hours and being paid for them. I'm indignant about the 'top' bank managers and their carry-on, yes, and about our leaders and their inability to lead, and the money both these groups are paid.

Well you should be. Overtime at this level is not efficient, or cost effective. In a time of unprecedented cutbacks, it is simply not best use of scarce resources.

yoshytoshy

bigkev49 wrote: »

Can't remember the exact statistics but I read lately that Ireland has one of the smallest civil services per capita in Europe.

I didn't realise that all clerical staff that are payed by the government are in the civil service:o

therecklessone

yoshytoshy wrote: »

It seems from what you're suggesting that there is justification in paying so much overtime. When more garda is what the country needs.

Hey, I'm not trying to provide justification for anything, just providing a bit of context.

Certain areas of policing require increased resources for specific periods, the Corrib gas protests are a prime example...are people suggesting that we take on extra Gardai to provide a contingency in case of an increase in workload for a short period of time? What happens when the lads are left sitting around with nothing to do in the meantime?

It would be interesting to see exactly where the overtime budget goes and what it delivers, a quick google reveals little in the way of up to date figures but back in 2003 the Garda overtime bill was €66m (10% of the Garda wage bill)...of that nearly 20% was accounted for by payments to members attending court, and another 9% was to members performing escort duties:

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2003/jun/22/overtime-boosts-gardas-pay-to-100000/

It's also worth noting that in 2005 the top 20 members in receipt of overtime consisted of 3 Inspectors, 10 sergeants and 7 rank-and-file Gardai, so there's a good chance the recipient of the bumper pay out this time around was a higher rank than an ordinary Garda.

Bobeagleburger

Hillel wrote: »

Yet another example of inadequate goverance and lack of cost control in the public sector. One Mayo officer earned €80,990 in overtime in 2008. The total garda overtime bill for 2008 was €113m.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5781039.ece
The message has to go out loud and clear that this level of profligate waste is NOT acceptable. All of us are already paying the cost - and will shortly pay a lot more. There are options readily available, all that is lacking is the political will to implement them. There are THREE "Ministers of State" (Barry Andrews, Conor Lenihan, and John Moloney), in addition to Minister Dermot Ahern, with an interest in this area. (http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Our_ministers) Lets assume that Dermot is fully occupied with Equality and Law Reform. I know, maybe not the highest priority right now, but, lets be fair and give him the benefit of the doubt.) Surely, Barry, Conor or John could find some time to take a look at this. (Or maybe its all a false alarm and the country really can afford the €113m bill!)

If this were the private sector this figure would be causing alarm right up to director level. The line manager, and others in the chain, could expect hard questions as to why this occured. Suitable measures would be implemented to ensure no recurrance. Ah but, this is public sector la, la, land. Perofrmance bonuses were probably handed out for the extra productivity! Next time you see Dermot, Barry, Conor or John ask them about this. Demand action, demonstarble, visible, effective action. If they mutter about the difficulties,etc., tell them that this is what WE pay them for. Suggest that if they can't address this it is time that they step dowm as ministers/ministers of state. (At least we'd get some saving.)

Who was it ??? Axl Foley??

yoshytoshy

therecklessone wrote: »

Certain areas of policing require increased resources for specific periods, the Corrib gas protests are a prime example...are people suggesting that we take on extra Gardai to provide a contingency in case of an increase in workload for a short period of time? What happens when the lads are left sitting around with nothing to do in the meantime?

It would be interesting to see exactly where the overtime budget goes and what it delivers, a quick google reveals little in the way of up to date figures but back in 2003 the Garda overtime bill was €66m (10% of the Garda wage bill)...of that nearly 20% was accounted for by payments to members attending court, and another 9% was to members performing escort duties:

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2003/jun/22/overtime-boosts-gardas-pay-to-100000/

It's also worth noting that in 2005 the top 20 members in receipt of overtime consisted of 3 Inspectors, 10 sergeants and 7 rank-and-file Gardai, so there's a good chance the recipient of the bumper pay out this time around was a higher rank than an ordinary Garda.

I believe myself that the 80k was probably a high ranking garda aswell ,but 80K is still a big amount for any public servant overtime.

The whole shell to sea thing could have been handled differently by the government.
There isn't enough garda on the force and thats been the case well before shell to sea.

dresden8

Hillel wrote: »

Yet another example of inadequate goverance and lack of cost control in the public sector. One Mayo officer earned €80,990 in overtime in 2008. The total garda overtime bill for 2008 was €113m.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5781039.ece
The message has to go out loud and clear that this level of profligate waste is NOT acceptable. All of us are already paying the cost - and will shortly pay a lot more. There are options readily available, all that is lacking is the political will to implement them. There are THREE "Ministers of State" (Barry Andrews, Conor Lenihan, and John Moloney), in addition to Minister Dermot Ahern, with an interest in this area. (http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Our_ministers) Lets assume that Dermot is fully occupied with Equality and Law Reform. I know, maybe not the highest priority right now, but, lets be fair and give him the benefit of the doubt.) Surely, Barry, Conor or John could find some time to take a look at this. (Or maybe its all a false alarm and the country really can afford the €113m bill!)

If this were the private sector this figure would be causing alarm right up to director level. The line manager, and others in the chain, could expect hard questions as to why this occured. Suitable measures would be implemented to ensure no recurrance. Ah but, this is public sector la, la, land. Perofrmance bonuses were probably handed out for the extra productivity! Next time you see Dermot, Barry, Conor or John ask them about this. Demand action, demonstarble, visible, effective action. If they mutter about the difficulties,etc., tell them that this is what WE pay them for. Suggest that if they can't address this it is time that they step dowm as ministers/ministers of state. (At least we'd get some saving.)

Maybe we should charge Shell for that overtime?

therecklessone

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I believe myself that the 80k was probably a high ranking garda aswell ,but 80K is still a big amount for any public servant overtime.

I don't have a problem with the amount of money myself, but it does raise questions about the implications for the individuals health and his/her job performance considering that even if it's an Inspector towards the top of the incremental pay scale, allowing for double time on Sundays/Bank Holidays then the person is working around 150 extra hours per month.

That said, it is difficult to provide contingency staffing for a scenario like Shell to Sea without accepting the inherent waste that will exist when those extra Gardai are not required.

I won't comment on the need for more Gardai as I'm not fully aware of the resources or lack thereof and the impact on day to day policing.

yoshytoshy

therecklessone wrote: »

I won't comment on the need for more Gardai as I'm not fully aware of the resources or lack thereof and the impact on day to day policing.

Not that I'm looking for trouble or anything ,but living in dublin and still can go all day without seeing a garda.

pirelli

randomer wrote: »

Woud not be better to employ two additional Gardai?

Also, is there not legislation to restrict the number of hours that an individual can work?

You can work as long as you want, you just can not be unfairly forced to work.

lostexpectation

Chief--- wrote: »

The state are obliged to protect the public from any form of terroirist or subversive group by collecting intelligence, stopping and searching where suspicion arises and monitoring their movement.

God if they didnt monitor these groups the public would be up in arms!! (excuse the pun)

The Eirigi party seeks a British withdrawal from Ireland and the establishment of a 32-county republic.

Now we know what class of people these types of movements attract, the same type that Sinn Fein appeals to and the same type that can be found in any pub at half 10 every morning.

Dole taking criminals who all see themselves as republican soldiers. And I believe Eirigi was involced in the peaceful protests in Rossport.

So peaceful that some of the protestors have attacked, harrassed and threatened the families of their own Irish police force down there.

Im speaking from experience and from speaking first hand to many Gardai who worked down there.

Believe me i have met hundereds of them in my career.

attacking family members of guards thats quite an accusation you'll have to back up

the guards can't really take the high ground on harrasement

Dark_lord_ire

What's the issue ? So what he put in the hours and was probably detailed to serious crime. Anyway 80k I know guards that earned even more but they were specialist and always on call at every hour and the amount of office work was unnatural. I think it's just ignorant to comment on topics you know little about. I did not earn 80k really wish I did but I don't take it away from them they earn it.

May I hit on another topic your average criminal traveller would cost over 95k a year just to lock up also welfare payments and cost from crime why don't people look at that side. Feed them slop make the jails factories and make them pay for crimes rather than a holiday home at our expence

K-9

therecklessone wrote: »

It's also worth noting that in 2005 the top 20 members in receipt of overtime consisted of 3 Inspectors, 10 sergeants and 7 rank-and-file Gardai, so there's a good chance the recipient of the bumper pay out this time around was a higher rank than an ordinary Garda.

Not 100% sure, but I think after Inspector level they can't claim over time.

therecklessone

K-9 wrote: »

Not 100% sure, but I think after Inspector level they can't claim over time.

Correct.

grahamo

I don't see the problem with garda overtime. When the gangs are killing each other on the streets people are calling for more Gardai. When they have to be paid people then whinge about what the cops are earning.
Why don't all the Victor Meldrew wannabes go get a life!