Increasing socialist/left wing ideology

DJDC

It has become increasingly apparent in recent weeks both on this forum, the national media and elsewhere that there is an increasing tendency of people towards lashing out at the very concepts that define the capitalist system. Anyone earning well above average wage has come under attack and is seen as a root cause of this crisis. This has all happened before of course(Europe 1930's etc.) and is typical of any country that goes through an economic crisis as people react angrily to their current situation.

Is there a likelihood that Ireland could vote in a Sinn Fein/Labour coalition in the next election if the situation continues to deteriorate? What effect would the ensuing policies of high taxation on the rich, high corporate taxs etc have on the countries economy?

is_that_so

Extremely unlikely. SF have no policies worth talking about, are languishing in single figures and have some fairly inept politicians. To make any type of impact SF would need to be in the mid-teens. Despite the FF slide they have not managed to get anywhere near that. Also there are many, many people who would not entertain a vote for SF under any circumstances.

A little of what you are seeing is reactionary (right-wing) anger and law and order is the only thing preventing some from organising lynch mobs. Some of that anger is directed at the fact that lifestyles will have to change. What is also apparent is that there is a massive vacuum of leadership on the part of the government and into that is flowing anything and everything. Much of our daily news involves the shenanigans of bankers and their ilk and job losses. This means we get a lot of exposure to left-leaning groups and the trade unions who are past masters of pushing their own agenda.

What is also against it is the fact that we have never had a left-wing socialist government. Our preference is for centrist or at a push, left of centre government. This inevitably means FF or FG in the mix. Labour as a left of centre party could work with FG and if their numbers hold up and they win a lot of seats, they would be in a very good position to influence the direction of government.

thebigcheese22

DJDC wrote: »

It has become increasingly apparent in recent weeks both on this forum, the national media and elsewhere that there is an increasing tendency of people towards lashing out at the very concepts that define the capitalist system. Anyone earning well above average wage has come under attack and is seen as a root cause of this crisis. This has all happened before of course(Europe 1930's etc.) and is typical of any country that goes through an economic crisis as people react angrily to their current situation.

Is there a likelihood that Ireland could vote in a Sinn Fein/Labour coalition in the next election if the situation continues to deteriorate? What effect would the ensuing policies of high taxation on the rich, high corporate taxs etc have on the countries economy?

You sound like you want a McCarthy-like witch-hunt... :rolleyes:

asdasd

Since socialism in ireland invariably means transfering wealth from the ABCDE's in the private sector to the ABC's in the public sector it wont have much purchase outside that sector. I dont consider myself a socialist but I would have no problem with increases in inheritance taxes - since I will inherit nothing - and property taxes on the top 10%. but I have always believed that.

My only movement to the "left" is to believe that if we have to nationalize banks we should do it, and as fast as possible, that would have been a far left view about 2 years ago.

silverharp

asdasd wrote: »

but I would have no problem with increases in inheritance taxes - since I will inherit nothing

That a strange way of thinking though the merits of an issue.

asdasd

That a strange way of thinking though the merits of an issue.

True, but we all do it. To give a more measured response if makes a mockery of the "right wing" view of equality of oppurtunity - rather than outcome - if Paris Hilton gets billions for just being Paris Hilton, and I can get a tiny fraction of her lifestyle by working really really hard, or smart.

That said my ideology would be different were I her, or if I had a property in the top 10%.

People surround their self interest in whatever ideology fits.

P. Breathnach

asdasd wrote: »

People surround their self interest in whatever ideology fits.

That's true of most people.

I think it is also the case that many people do not even know what is in their best interests.

asdasd

I think it is also the case that many people do not even know what is in their best interests.

Yes, the working classes and their false conciousness. :-)

P. Breathnach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think it is also the case that many people do not even know what is in their best interests.

I would add that my view of what is in my best interest includes a belief that my life is better if my neighbours are doing okay.

BroomBurner

asdasd wrote: »

Yes, the working classes and their false conciousness. :-)

It really depends on whether you're a prole or not...

OhNoYouDidn't

Good. The crony right have had their chance and destroyed the country probably for the rest of my lifetime. Time for another approach.

BroomBurner

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Good. The crony right have had their chance and destroyed the country probably for the rest of my lifetime. Time for another approach.

Have to say that I agree. Time to experiment a little. Unfortunately, the current main parties will just try to use patchwork governing to try to fix things and get them back to they way they were.

So, what political ideal would anyone like Ireland to follow next?

994

is_that_so wrote: »

Much of our daily news involves the shenanigans of bankers and their ilk and job losses. This means we get a lot of exposure to left-leaning groups and the trade unions who are past masters of pushing their own agenda.

A political group, pushing its own agenda? Whatever next!

thebang

DJDC wrote: »

It has become increasingly apparent in recent weeks both on this forum, the national media and elsewhere that there is an increasing tendency of people towards lashing out at the very concepts that define the capitalist system. Anyone earning well above average wage has come under attack and is seen as a root cause of this crisis. This has all happened before of course(Europe 1930's etc.) and is typical of any country that goes through an economic crisis as people react angrily to their current situation.

Just because we are unhappy with a few bankers does'nt really mean Marxism is coming in. I would'nt say people are against Capitalism just crony Capitalism.

mike65

In recent weeks an increasing number of threads have appeared suggesting the left shall rise again....blah blah blah.

If economic armageddon is the best hope for socialism that sugests the majority are not prediposed to the ideology.

mumhaabu

Ireland needs to move much further right not left.

Leftwing politics have been shown time and time again to not work and all they do is swell the national debt while leaving the state doing every single thing for the individual. Leftwing socialist politics basically means having the state control everything and having little economic freedom.

I laugh at mentions of a Lab/SF government his thankfully will never ever happen unless Fianna Fail starts some sort of Civil War. What is needed is an overall Majority FG government. We need tax cuts to stimulate the economy, we need to cut spending and cut out the quangos and crap the exsists.

We need less rules and laws but tighter regulation of certain industries, Banking, the legal proffession and Real Estate agents need to be regulated much more. Other regulators need to be abolished like ComReg who are useless.

We need to axe thousands in the public service and cut the wages of those remaining. We need to kill off useless projects and agencies such as the EPA and the various PC agencies such as the equality authority.

We need to lock down our borders and stop the migrant workers from the 12 new EU states from working here and reintroduce work permits. We need to look at the effects of immigration into Ireland at a time when our own kith and kin are leaving. All I see in various towns is loads of immigrants walking around hands in pockets all not working being supported by the Irish government at a time when our employees are beign taxed to extreme. Social Welfare needs to dismantled and slowly removed for all people but cut it for foreigners first.

We need to move to the right not the left and we will see our Celtic Tiger roar again, FF represents no view and exsist to line their own pockets. FF needs to have schism and have their few decent politicians join FG, an example being Cork based Noel O'Flynn. This guy basically sat out a vision of how broadband Ireland should be and it went entirely ignored by his own party. To those liberal lefties who argue for Socialism take one look at the United States a country which has seen an unprecedented economic boom from late 2002 up to 2008 and the economy of the US grew and grew every single year that President Bush was in power. His conservative policies led America on its greatest boom since WWII and weathered a war and domestic terrorism. The Democrats took the house with Nanci Pelosi (possibly america's most corrupt person) and then began this crisis.

If a teenager you are not a socialist you have no heart
If a 40yr old you are still a socialist you have no brain

Plus add to it the media brainwashing and the method used to teach our children in socialised education then it is no wonder that liberal leftwing ideas are on the rise. Amazingly within Russia now exists amongst the best hope for Capitalism and the Right having learned from the mistakes of past Bolshevism which left 100 million dead within their borders.

peasant

mumhaabu wrote: »

We need to lock down our borders and stop the migrant workers from the 12 new EU states from working here and reintroduce work permits. We need to look at the effects of immigration into Ireland at a time when our own kith and kin are leaving. All I see in various towns is loads of immigrants walking around hands in pockets all not working being supported by the Irish government at a time when our employees are beign taxed to extreme. Social Welfare needs to dismantled and slowly removed for all people but cut it for foreigners first.

Hello Adolf, long time no see

33% God

mumhaabu wrote: »

Ireland needs to move much further right not left.

Leftwing politics have been shown time and time again to not work and all they do is swell the national debt while leaving the state doing every single thing for the individual. Leftwing socialist politics basically means having the state control everything and having little economic freedom..

Oh hi there Mr.Strawman, long time no see.

We need to move to the right not the left and we will see our Celtic Tiger roar again, FF represents no view and exsist to line their own pockets. FF needs to have schism and have their few decent politicians join FG, an example being Cork based Noel O'Flynn. This guy basically sat out a vision of how broadband Ireland should be and it went entirely ignored by his own party. To those liberal lefties who argue for Socialism take one look at the United States a country which has seen an unprecedented economic boom from late 2002 up to 2008 and the economy of the US grew and grew every single year that President Bush was in power. His conservative policies led America on its greatest boom since WWII and weathered a war and domestic terrorism. The Democrats took the house with Nanci Pelosi (possibly america's most corrupt person) and then began this crisis.

This crises began when Greenspan cut interest rates in the Fed which sent us on this heady spiral towards the collapse of the banking system and the subprime crises that we see today.

As for the celtic tiger, his roars were only heard by some
The flood didn't raise all the ships. Average weekly disposable income rose only by 33.3% for the poorest 10% in the country (62.27 punts to 83.67 punts) between 1995-2000, while the richest 10% saw increases of 61.8% (695.31 to a staggering 1,125.22). Wages went from 70% of income to 60%, so profits jumped from 30% to 40%, showing that the Capitalists not only did well absolutely but also relative to wages. We also saw a 123% increase in homelessness during the boom (1996-2002).

dave-higgz

peasant wrote: »

Hello Adolf, long time no see

He's got a point. Immigration has worked so well for us because we had loads of jobs and none of the immigrants were on social welfare. They were contributing to society like all people should. However we're now at the stage where they are becoming a drain on our society. Those who are still in work or who are settled here for at least 10 years should be allowed to stay. Those who are on the dole who are only here a couple of years should not be entitled to social welfare and it is the duty of their country of origin to accept them back home and look after them with whatever help they can provide them.

peasant

Immigration hasn't worked well at all ...but that's not the fault of the immigrants.

What happened in effect was that immigrant workers were let in to build the houses that they would later rent at exorbitant prices.

All this did was to extend the building bubble some more (both in girth as well as duration) and make some more money for builders/developers and all their hangers-on.

Plus now we have thousands of empty/unfinished houses and other building projects

mike65

We'll be glad of all those empty houses in decades to come (thats the only good news looking forwards).

dave-higgz

peasant wrote: »

Plus now we have thousands of empty/unfinished houses and other building projects

Aww tell me about it. I had always wondered, even as a child in the early days of the boom, who is going to buy all of the apartments. We built more than we needed!!

ejmaztec

mike65 wrote: »

We'll be glad of all those empty houses in decades to come (thats the only good news looking forwards).

We'll have one each and there'll still be a few thousand left over.

ejmaztec

dave-higgz wrote: »

Aww tell me about it. I had always wondered, even as a child in the early days of the boom, who is going to buy all of the apartments. We built more than we needed!!

I suppose that the local authorities will somehow get their hands on them, and the tenants' private buyer neighbours will be even more rattled when their negative equity increases as a result.

Permabear

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DadaKopf

donegalfella wrote: »

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You have to be joking. It's very much the opposite, actually.

Permabear

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Diogenes

donegalfella wrote: »

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Possibly because the concept is an oxymoron.

But to suggest right wing opinions aren't expressed on Irish air waves, did you not hear Ulick Mc Evaddy on with Joe Higgins last week.

Permabear

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Diogenes

donegalfella wrote: »

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Awww did I sting?

Who's voice do you think is missing from Irish Airwaves at the moment? Some names perhaps? Brennan O'Connor? Eilish O Hanlon? Kevin Myers?

I think alot of the "Right wing intellectuals" are the same people who dismissed any notion of a recession or a collapse in the housing market as late as 6-12 months ago. Would you really fancy exposing yourself and the ass backward claims you were making about the economy, making any current theories or propositions looking risible.

These people are keeping their heads down at them moment, they're the turkeys that voted for christmas, best keep a low profile round about now.

Alan Greenspan, the golden calf of right wing economy theory, a man who's run down the economies of everywhere from Poland to most of Central America, yet still was lauded across the global. Alan Greenspan, the man, if you were to pick one single person to blame for the global recession, has been forced to admit his policies were "misguided".

You really think someone from Magill, or someone from IBEC, or the CIF is lifting their heads above the trenches right now?

deadhead13

DJDC wrote: »

Is there a likelihood that Ireland could vote in a Sinn Fein/Labour coalition in the next election if the situation continues to deteriorate? What effect would the ensuing policies of high taxation on the rich, high corporate taxs etc have on the countries economy?

What effect did a decade of a FF/PD coalition ultimately have on the countries economy?

Btw the idea that the Irish voters would elect a Sinn Fein/Labour coalition is laughable.