Heel hooks-are they bad for the 'Sport'?**Contains UFC 95 Spoiler**

Kent Brockman

Very disappointed to see Neil Grove getting his leg ripped apart last night and now who knows how long his recovery will be , or if he will ever be right?

Jean Silva (who I have always enjoyed watching) hasn't made an appearance since he was heel-hooked last august by Imanari in Cage Rage.

The injurys seems to be too severe and career threatening and I'm wondering if the Sport wouldn't be better if they were made illegal?
Anyone got any views on this?

cowzerp

If your good enough to be in the UFC you probably should be good enough to defend heel hooks, neil grove was going to get heel hooked for ages in my view last night-he just did not see it.


Now if you have a lad fighting pro for 200 euro then i think it should be illegal due to the risk v reward, but at the end of the day the fighter chooses to fight in the rule set.

i would not complain if they where banned from MMA, but then again at the highest level there not that big a risk as the top fighters can easily defend them and are payed enough that if there out for 6 months+ its not the end of the world.

if a lad in local irish MMA is out for 6 months+ and is out of work i would say thats a sin TBH as its a move that is known to cause these injuries.

A kick could cause this injury too but the likelyhood of it are tiny so that cant be compared, as a knee to the head could crack your skull but again its rare and even with a good knee in the head the odds on it cracking a skull are small. Heel hooks are High risk if performed right and not defended right.

ginoginelli

Tough call. I cringe every time i see someone caught in one ,but id still be inclined to keep them legal, for the big shows at least.

The sport should be kept as pure as possible imo, when you start watering it down the product can suffer. I have no issues with them being banned from amateur shows, or the likes of "the contenders show" comming up on strikeforce, but they should be kept in for the like of dream, ufc etc..

I might change my mind though if we start seeing more injuries.

Valmont

The fighters in the UFC are, for the most part, consummate professionals and they should be aware of and know how to defend against heel-hooks. It's part and parcel of the MMA/Jiu Jitsu game. I hate the idea of watering MMA down any more than it already is. Neil Grove demostrated his inexperience with the ground game by not tapping to that heel hook sooner. It wasn't applied very speedily either, it was relatively slow compared to Shamrock's or Imanari's heel hooks.

calex71

Heel hooks do cause injuries this is true, these and leg locks in general are very under utilized i think (frank mir being the last leg lock win i recall , though i know there was a more recent one i cant think of right now , might not have been ufc ), agreed you know the score as a pro so keep them legal , here in ireland if your gonna be off work and out of pocket thats different imo. I'm not in the game but i would think that there is some blame to be shared from a, not tapping in time or b, not releasing the hold after the tap fast enough ???? What are guys in the sports thoughts on that ?

To be honest elbows cause far more damage in terms of cuts and stoppages from them i could see a better case for banning them really (not that id want them banned for the above pro reason)

Nothingcompares

I second almost everything cowzer said but I would add that:

The reason why people tap to chokes and strangles is because they are painful (or discomforting) and if you don't release the hold in time the person will go unconscious. You know when to tap when you vision begins to 'black out', or from experience you'll know when the submission is inescapable and will tap earlier. If however, you're fighting for a belt or prize money, you're inexperienced or carried away in the heat of the moment and you don't tap in time, usually there will be no long lasting effects (if the person releases the strangle after you go unconscious. At a crude and rough estimate, I would say you have at least 15 seconds from the moment the choke is "sunk" to the time the person releases the choke before it becomes dangerous (i've no reference for that).

The reason why people tap to a straight armlock for example is because it is very painful and they know if they don't tap their arm may break or more likely their ligaments in their elbow will snap. Again like a strangle, most people will know before it's very painful to tap. If the person performing the move is slow to release the pressure or it goes on very forcefully there is a risk of ligament damage. Again like a choke, there are plenty of warning signals before long term injury becomes a risk.

The reason why people tap to heel hooks is because they know their ligaments in their knee or ankle will be injured if they don't. However, unlike the 2 previous submissions, there is little if any, pain warning for a heel hook. If you wait for the pain to start before taping the damage is already done. More importantly, somebody can apply a heel hook and damage your knee (causing long term damage) almost immediately.

One of the reasons why I am a fan of Anderson Silva is because he tapped very quickly to a very sudden heel hook by Ryo Chonan (video). He is a BJJ black belt and knew he was at risk.

I think a lot of MMA fighters probably don't practice heel hooks in their submission classes because of this risk so it's difficult to build up that experience of knowing when to tap (when escape is impossible but no injury).

Foot locks, knee bars etc. are in the armlock category of submissions and have adequate pain warnings and are completely different to heel hooks.

I'm not sure why exactly submissions using the arm are more common then submissions of the leg. Maybe it's a chicken and egg situation and more people practice armbars then leglocks. But it's probably because armlocks are a higher percentage submission and their opportunity arise more often (it's obviously a lot easier to do a kimura from side control then a achilles lock).

calex71

thanks for that great insight well explained

dunkamania

Recall the Hndeo Palhares fight, that shows better applications of heelhook offense and defense. Hendo got caught a couple of times, but had the defense well drilled, and didnt have to tap because the leg was locked below the knee

pablohoney87

I pretty much agree with nothingcompares. I can offer a couple explanations as to why armlocks tend to be favoured in bjj and mma.
One reason is that when commiting to a leg it leaves your head exposed to punches if the opponent is positioned right. When that is combined with a weak chin you may be begging for a ko. Watch andrei arlovski vs pe de pano at ufc 66.
Another is that when commiting to a leg you may be giving up position. If the opponent is skilled enough they may be able to mount you. This was seen in ufc 1 when ken shamrock faced royce gracie.
It is also hard to transition from leg lock to leg lock when changing position. Take for example when you attempt an armbar from mount. If your opponent stacks you it is possible to transition to a triangle to an omoplata to a sweep and back to mount or side control. This is not as easy with leg locks as most are started from similar postitions making it harder to improvise.
Thats a slight insight to what i think anyway. Im new to boards so feedback is welcome.

calex71

pablohoney87 wrote: »

I pretty much agree with nothingcompares. I can offer a couple explanations as to why armlocks tend to be favoured in bjj and mma.
One reason is that when commiting to a leg it leaves your head exposed to punches if the opponent is positioned right. When that is combined with a weak chin you may be begging for a ko. Watch andrei arlovski vs pe de pano at ufc 66.
Another is that when commiting to a leg you may be giving up position. If the opponent is skilled enough they may be able to mount you. This was seen in ufc 1 when ken shamrock faced royce gracie.
It is also hard to transition from leg lock to leg lock when changing position. Take for example when you attempt an armbar from mount. If your opponent stacks you it is possible to transition to a triangle to an omoplata to a sweep and back to mount or side control. This is not as easy with leg locks as most are started from similar postitions making it harder to improvise.
Thats a slight insight to what i think anyway. Im new to boards so feedback is welcome.

Welcome , great 1st post

Clive

Heel hooks are awesome.

Banning them would mean you'd also have the ban the elbow hook, which is going to be the next anaconda/gogoplata/north south choke etc. phenomenon as soon as someone lands one in MMA.

rovert

calex71 wrote: »

Welcome , great 1st post

Agreed

I was about to post baby's got The Bends in relation to that post and I realised damn it wrong album.

Drunkmonkey79

Was this fight televised? I watched the show last night but didn't see any heel hook finishes!?!

Charlie3dan

Yea it was shown after the Sanchez V Stevenson fight.

cowzerp

Clive wrote: »

Heel hooks are awesome..

i agree but so are head butts!

Clive wrote: »

Banning them would mean you'd also have the ban the elbow hook, which is going to be the next anaconda/gogoplata/north south choke etc. phenomenon as soon as someone lands one in MMA.

I dont know if this is said in a sarcastic manner or if i'm misreading it but most of them submissions are easy to tap from before injury occurs and are not comparible to heel hooks which is possibly a career ending move.

subvictory

If any move is to be banned it should be the elbow hook.

cowzerp

Excuse my ignorance but whats an elbow hook?

Charlie3dan

cowzerp wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but whats an elbow hook?

PHEW! Thought I was the only one:D

arybvtcw0eolkf

Charlie3dan wrote: »

PHEW! Thought I was the only one:D

I was afraid to ask too!.

Thanks Paul .

.

Fozzy

I've only heard of the elbow hook as a strike

t-ha

I have no idea either, but for kicks I'm going to go ahead and guess that this (http://promma.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/frankf*ckinmirzn9.gif) is an outside elbow hook, and doing the opposite would be an inside elbow hook?

Someone enlighten moi?

Edit: you'll have to edit the link. There's no '*' in it - boards filters put that in. I think you can figure out what the missing letter is.

Dragan

t-ha wrote: »

I have no idea either, but for kicks I'm going to go ahead and guess that this (http://promma.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/frankf*ckinmirzn9.gif) is an outside elbow hook, and doing the opposite would be an inside elbow hook?

Someone enlighten moi?

Edit: you'll have to edit the link. There's no '*' in it - boards filters put that in. I think you can figure out what the missing letter is.

Lovely angle for that gif, watch how Mir controls Williams legs!!

subvictory

I think Clive would be the best person to elaborate, he's the submission expert.

dunkamania

Not trying to second guesss our submission overlord (clive) but I am guessing its some moved he cooked up, while arsing around on a saturday morning, that has only ever worked once, and is unlikely to ever work again.......:)

Kent Brockman

cowzerp wrote: »

most of them submissions are easy to tap from before injury occurs and are not comparible to heel hooks which is possibly a career ending move.

Yeah, thats the point I was making alright. It seems that there is no time to tap with a heel-hook, and by the time you realise to tap the damage has been done.

Clive

All I meant was that I think the elbow hook will be the next low percentage craze that everyone tries for a month and then gives up on, much like the gogoplata, anaconda, North South choke etc.

As for what an elbow hook is, well it's like a heel hook, but on the elbow. I'll see if I can get a video of it at some stage.

To take an example more familiar to people, if you kneebar someone hard enough on the side of their knee, rather than the front, you can damage it before there's any pain.

Similarly we've all seen Sylvia's arm broken from having an armbar cranked on the forearm - there's no rising pressure on that, it just feels like someone is putting the lock on wrong, then BANG and the dirt is gone.

The leg scissors takedown is banned in jiu jitsu (and I think judo also) because it can destroy knees too.

Should we ban all of these from MMA?

My view is pretty simple - if you're fighting at a pro level, on a show big enough to allow heel hooks, you should:

• Know what a heel hook is
• Know the damage it can do
• Know that you won't get a pain warning before damage is done
• Know when you're caught
• Know the risks you take from not tapping in time
• Accept the consequences

Roper

Chris Brennan heel hooked me maybe 5 times in 3 minutes whe I rolled with him a year or so ago. None of these tore my knee ligaments because neither of us are morons. I wanted to tap when he got them and he has the requisite control.

I don't think they're safe to train with because most people are either not experienced enough to catch and release or have too large an ego to let a submission go. If I got a heel hook on a guy tomorrow in sparring, I'd release him immediately and continue rolling, but there are not too many people I'd trust to do likewise to me for the above reasons.

I think in terms of risk versus reward, there's not too much point in having them in Irish shows below A class. For one, how many heel hooks are you possibly going to see in a year's competition? Maybe one? So while I don't agree with watering things down, why not leave them out of lower class fights? They don't add value.

I feel for Grove and hope he recovers soon. But I doubt he's sitting with his ice pack today saying "damn, I wish heel hooks were banned". He may be saying I wish I tapped sooner, or I should have done more heel hook defence. But he knew the rules going in and I'm sure he accepts th consequences as Clive has said.

Was it Tyson Griffin who was in a kneebar a while back and the thing was going negative (his leg was bending the wrong way) and he just grimaced and watched the big screen for the clock? Think it was. Anyway, if he had popped his knee that day there would have been 100 threads on forums calling for kneebars to be banned.

ginoginelli

Clive wrote: »

All I meant was that I think the elbow hook will be the next low percentage craze that everyone tries for a month and then gives up on, much like the gogoplata, anaconda, North South choke etc.

As for what an elbow hook is, well it's like a heel hook, but on the elbow. I'll see if I can get a video of it at some stage.

To take an example more familiar to people, if you kneebar someone hard enough on the side of their knee, rather than the front, you can damage it before there's any pain.

Similarly we've all seen Sylvia's arm broken from having an armbar cranked on the forearm - there's no rising pressure on that, it just feels like someone is putting the lock on wrong, then BANG and the dirt is gone.

The leg scissors takedown is banned in jiu jitsu (and I think judo also) because it can destroy knees too.

Should we ban all of these from MMA?

My view is pretty simple - if you're fighting at a pro level, on a show big enough to allow heel hooks, you should:

• Know what a heel hook is
• Know the damage it can do
• Know that you won't get a pain warning before damage is done
• Know when you're caught
• Know the risks you take from not tapping in time
• Accept the consequences

shouldnt this meathead be banned on grounds of stupidity?

Dragan

ginoginelli wrote: »

shouldnt this meathead be banned on grounds of stupidity?

Clive is one of the more active fighters in the MMA scene and i believe he also takes part in a lot of sub wrestling and BJJ tourneys, so if i was you I would sit there and pay some attention to the opinion of someone who will actually know what he is talking about.

I got to meet him once in the pub, he was quite sound and pretty clever, desperately needs to eat a sandwich though. I got all giddy because just that day i had watched a clip of him sparking an opponent with a rather beautiful knee from the clinch.

I've reported your post for personal abuse.

mirwillbeback

I recall getting caught in one last year, by a big stocky lad who hadnt been training long. I actually knew the opportunity was there, just didnt think he'd know / go for it.
It wasn't painful, but then I tapped out of total fear of what could happen.
In fairness the chap had no idea of what he was doing, and when I told him he was very apologetic ( though probably thought I was just making excuses for being caught by a new guy ! ).

ginoginelli

ginoginelli wrote: »

shouldnt this meathead be banned on grounds of stupidity?

Personal abuse is not acceptable. Personal abuse towards a poster over a well thought out and structured post is just mind boggling.

Take a week in the sin bin and come back with somethign to add to the forum rather than trying to take something away from it.


Back on topic..... Heel hooks scare me! Being someone who used to be very into my leglocks I know a lot of set ups for them and I've never fully executed one as I don't wanna injure anyone but I know just from practicing the set ups bjust how tight a crank you can generate and the kind of damage they do. I also know from mates who've been injured by them that if you feel pain it's already too late. Best to tap and walk home than to let your ego put you in crutches for a few months. Look how quickly Anderson Silva tapped, that's what I'd advise.

ta2liam

Deleted User wrote: »

Heel hooks scare me! Being someone who used to be very into my leglocks I know a lot of set ups for them and I've never fully executed one as I don't wanna injure anyone but I know just from practicing the set ups bjust how tight a crank you can generate and the kind of damage they do. I also know from mates who've been injured by them that if you feel pain it's already too late. Best to tap and walk home than to let your ego put you in crutches for a few months. Look how quickly Anderson Silva tapped, that's what I'd advise.

have to agree i was at cage rage in september last year and Masakazu Imanari vs Jean Silva was a serious knee injury, Jean wouldn't tap as he is a black belt in bjj and his pride kicked in, i say he regrets it now.

Every time in training i got caught in a heel hook or knee bar i tapped straight away

Dragan

My opinion is as simple as it is an athletes job to make his own decisions. He needs to make himself aware of what COULD happen and decide if he still wants to follow through with his plans.

I used to play rugby, and big hits hurt and can injure you pretty badly. I eventually gave up the game because my shoulders were starting to get very torn up and i had a number of dislocations. An adult decision going off the advice of my doctors and physio at the time told me it was time to walk away.

It's the same in any sport. There is a foot race called the Marathon De Sables, it's 5 marathons in 7 days in a desert. People have died doing it in the past and it's likely that more will in the future. People still run it because they are aware of the risks and are willing to face them.

It's the same in Combat Sports. You can get hurt, it's just that simple. A deftly delivered strike to the face could shatter your orbital bone, leading to reconstructive surgerys and possible eye injuries.

Eventually, any submissions could lead to injury or even death if the right circumstances happen for it. The nature of the game, however, is a sport, so if you are going to get involved it's better to do so with the long term view of wanting to compete for a number of years and to act accordingly.

Only a fool allows his pride to put him in a position where he cannot train, fight, learn, develop and support himself and those who may be dependant on him.

In everything you do i feel it's important to make yourself aware of the risks and then decide it it's a risk you want to take.

MMA has a fantastic safety record over some other combat sports, but the risks are still their and should still be obvious.

ta2liam

ta2liam wrote: »

have to agree i was at cage rage in september last year and Masakazu Imanari vs Jean Silva was a serious knee injury, Jean wouldn't tap as he is a black belt in bjj and his pride kicked in, i say he regrets it now.

I've actually spoken to him in person about that (long story) and he said he didn't feel it until it popped and that he would have tapped if he felt it was on but he thought he could get out of it.

Thing about them is, guys like Imanari apply them so fast that sometimes u don't have time to think u have to tap straight away and often people are still busy thinkin "How do I get out of this".

That's why I would err on the side of caution with them.

ta2liam

Deleted User wrote: »

I've actually spoken to him in person about that (long story) and he said he didn't feel it until it popped and that he would have tapped if he felt it was on but he thought he could get out of it.

Thing about them is, guys like Imanari apply them so fast that sometimes u don't have time to think u have to tap straight away and often people are still busy thinkin "How do I get out of this".

That's why I would err on the side of caution with them.

thats gas, small world i was talkin to him before the fight! afaik jean hasn't had a fight since and Imanari won his last fight with a heel hook. I seen a lad in training have his knee dislocated by the trainer with a heel hook, he was saying the same thing it wasn't painful then POP it was out. he never was able to train mma after it (i think hes body building now)

but its one of those arguments like elbows on the ground some people are in favour some aren't

t-ha

I was drunk-wrestling my friend (you've all done it!) when I was starting out BJJ and caught him with a heel-hook. I tried to explain to him that I had him and the fight was over but he wasn't having any of it so I cranked it a bit. No permanent damage luckily but he had a bit of trouble walking right for a few weeks.

Dancor

t-ha wrote: »

I was drunk-wrestling my friend (you've all done it!) when I was starting out BJJ and caught him with a heel-hook. I tried to explain to him that I had him and the fight was over but he wasn't having any of it so I cranked it a bit. No permanent damage luckily but he had a bit of trouble walking right for a few weeks.

I dont know who the bigger idiot is.

Kent Brockman

Good insight from the pros there.

Certainly dont need heel-hooks at amateur level seems to be the general view(due to the high risk /high damage factor), but if your in with the big boys then you should be capable of dealing with them.

I am aware that there is an obvious risk involved in getting in the ring/cage in the first place, and its true that even taking a single punch can result in breaks or fractures/concussion etc.
I singled out the heel hook because, although it is seldom used,it seems to always result in serious or career threatening injuries. Maybe if they become more commonplace and half the Ufc locker room is on crutches they will think about banning them;)

t-ha

dancor wrote: »

I dont know who the bigger idiot is.

We came to a collective agreement that we were both the bigger idiot.

subvictory

t-ha wrote: »

I was drunk-wrestling my friend (you've all done it!) when I was starting out BJJ and caught him with a heel-hook. I tried to explain to him that I had him and the fight was over but he wasn't having any of it so I cranked it a bit. No permanent damage luckily but he had a bit of trouble walking right for a few weeks.

This is probably the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Yes we've all had drunken 'mess' scraps but permanently crippling our mates would not be the objective we had in mind. I think you should give up the drink, seriously. Applying a heel hook on someone whos drunk, struggling and obviously unaware as to what was going on is criminally stupid.

Dragan

subvictory wrote: »

This is probably the most retarded thing I've ever heard.

**** me, you clearly don't get out much.

subvictory

Dragan wrote: »

**** me, you clearly don't get out much.

I do, just not with retards...

mark.leonard

subvictory wrote: »

I do, just not with retards...

What happened to all the love guys! First the Bad Man gets hated on by some hater pedaling hate and now we have this rapidly escalating insult exchange!

Dragan

mark.leonard wrote: »

What happened to all the love guys! First the Bad Man gets hated on by some hater pedaling hate and now we have this rapidly escalating insult exchange!

Oh come now Mr Leonard, you know when I want to insult someone i do it with the slick style and grace of a prime Rickson applying a choke.

This is just small talk.:D

t-ha

subvictory wrote: »

This is probably the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Yes we've all had drunken 'mess' scraps but permanently crippling our mates would not be the objective we had in mind. I think you should give up the drink, seriously. Applying a heel hook on someone whos drunk, struggling and obviously unaware as to what was going on is criminally stupid.

LOL.

I think ur ma should give up the drink.

subvictory

Maybe she should, I'll run it by her. :pac:
Who taught you a heel hook as a beginner anyways? name and shame I say.

t-ha

Ken Shamrock

subvictory

This might help you:

http://www.diageo.ie/community/AlchoholAwarness

vasch_ro

back on topic please i was following this thread with interest......

Valmont

Deleted User wrote: »

Being someone who used to be very extremely into my leglocks

I fixed that there for you Neil. I miss those days and the fact that you're about 85kg didn't help things either!

rovert

A pretty detailed article about this:
http://www.colintimberlake.com/mma-rules-outlaw-the-heel-hook-small-joint-manipulation/