Would you support it?

O'Morris

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Most Irish people value the Irish language as an important part of our identity that we want to preserve. I don't consider people who don't speak Irish to be less authentically Irish than the rest of us but I do think Irish people who treat the language with indifference to be less authentically Irish. While you might be in the majority in not speaking the language I think you're in the minority in your attitude towards its revival.

I don't know why it would make any difference to you anyway that people might consider you less authentically Irish. Why is it a bad thing to be less authentically Irish than the rest of us?

Nodin wrote:

That kind of BNP exploitative pandering has nothing to do with Republicanism.

The BNP gets most of its support from the same patriotic working class demographic in Britain that Sinn Fein gets its support from in Ireland. I would imagine that the average Sinn Fein voter would have a lot in common and would share many of the same views as the average BNP voter.

The fact that some are taken in by it is all the more reason to get out there and educate people on the matter.

Educate them about what? That immigration is not a problem even though we're in the middle of a recession and we have over 300,000 people on the dole?

I would further question how anyone could have any involvement with PSF etc and have any notion that it does, certainly not any form of "silent majority".

The last poll I saw found that 66% of the people polled believed that there should tighter restrictions on immigration. That looks like a silent majority to me.

Nodin

O'Morris wrote: »

The BNP gets (........) as the average BNP voter. .

You really aren't too clued up about the whole thing, if thats your honest opinion. PSF has enjoyed links both practical and ideological with the ANC, PLO and many other organisations over the years, which continue to this day. The badly dressed-up 'white pride' thug crapology of the BNP has no place in, around or near it.

O'Morris wrote: »

Educate them about what? That immigration is not a problem even though we're in the middle of a recession and we have over 300,000 people on the dole?.

Compared to financial mismangement, tax breaks for the upper echelons....no, its not.

Dob74

djpbarry wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/3704633.stm

That's reason enough for me to never offer any support to Sinn Féin. Ever.

So should Michael Collins have been denied being let into government in 1922 for having the cairo gang taken out. Should Dev been kept out of office because Kevin O'Higgin's was killed.
Most parties say they wont go into coalition with SF but are you trying to tell me if FF or FG needed them to make up the numbers, they wouldn't say yes?
Its only a tactic to but SF down and get more votes. P.I.R.A did some nasty things between 1969-1996 but the rifles have been silent for along time.
Wasn't most of the labour party front bench part of Workers Party Sinn Fein.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

O'Morris

Nodin wrote:

You really aren't too clued up about the whole thing, if thats your honest opinion. PSF has enjoyed links both practical and ideological with the ANC, PLO and many other organisations over the years, which continue to this day. The badly dressed-up 'white pride' thug crapology of the BNP has no place in, around or near it.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that grassroots Sinn Fein voters share the same left-wing views as the party leadership. Most of the people I know who vote for Sinn Fein are about as far removed from the leadership of the party they support than the supporter of any other party in Ireland. Some of the most racist and bigotted people I know are hardcore republicans who vote for Sinn Fein. The reason they vote for them is because Sinn Fein are a nationalist party who fly the flag and aren't afraid to rough up the druggies and the anti-socials when it's needed.

Nodin wrote:

Compared to financial mismangement, tax breaks for the upper echelons....no, its not.

Try telling that to an unemployed construction worker who can't find work because of all the competition for jobs. Try telling him that financial mismanagement and tax breaks is a bigger problem for him than the mass influx of cheap labour from eastern Europe.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

LordSutch

O'Morris wrote: »

Some of the most racist and bigotted people I know are hardcore republicans who vote for Sinn Fein. The reason they vote for them is because Sinn Fein are a nationalist party who fly the flag and aren't afraid to rough up the druggies and the anti-socials when it's needed.

Well said O'Morris .........

guinnessdrinker

O'Morris wrote: »

Some of the most racist and bigotted people I know are hardcore republicans who vote for Sinn Fein.

Maybe some of the people you know are racist and bigotted and also vote for Sinn Fein but anybody I could say the same thing about people I know that vote for FF or FG or any other party.

djpbarry

drunkmonkey wrote: »

...a united Ireland would definatley help our economy.

Ah, that old chestnut. Perhaps you could demonstrate the economic benefit of a United Ireland?

Dob74 wrote: »

So should Michael Collins have been denied being let into government in 1922 for having the cairo gang taken out. Should Dev been kept out of office because Kevin O'Higgin's was killed.

I ain’t a fan of either, actually, but that’s beside the point.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

At a time of net emigration, complaints about “mass immigration” scarcely warrant consideration.

Liam Byrne

Jon wrote: »

LOL Touché

Is that all you can say to that post about the types of merchandise the party is associating itself with ? :eek:

Imagine for a second that the FF website was selling American pro-war propaganda relating to the Iraq war, celebrating innocent people being blown up and campaigning for the release of the types of people that most people would prefer to see locked up for life......would you expect people to ignore that ?

As was posted above, we'll "move on" when SF do, and they've a LONG way to go to prove that they're worth a vote....we might be running out of decent options of who to vote for, but we're not THAT desperate!

Diogenes

djpbarry wrote: »

Ah, that old chestnut. Perhaps you could demonstrate the economic benefit of a United Ireland?

I spent Saturday afternoon in Strabane, surrounded by Republica Reg cars, if someone could explain this "benefit" of a united Ireland to our economy, I'd love to hear it.

I ain’t a fan of either, actually, but that’s beside the point.
At a time of net emigration, complaints about “mass immigration” scarcely warrant consideration.

Again ditto.

LordSutch

I would argue that its economically prudent to keep the two jurisdictions on the same island (swings & roundabouts), it also saves us having to cross the water for bargains & a better choice of consumables.

I noticed that SF have dropped a UI as their No1 chant )

O'Morris

Thank you Camelot sean chara.

Donegalfella wrote:

I don't have any issue with preserving Irish, just as I feel that Latin and ancient Greek should be preserved.

But Irish has no greater value in your eyes than any other language? You don't see the Irish language as part of your identity?

Donegalfella wrote:

I have a problem with the pretence that it's our "native language," our "first language," and our "mother tongue."

People use those terms to indicate the value they attach to the language. They're not meant as literal statements of fact.

Donegalfella wrote:

Oh, don't start beating that drum again, O'Morris.

I think Sinn Fein's political future will be heavily dependent on whether they manage to hold onto the votes of their working-class support base. If a BNP style party emerges as a result of the recession then I can see Sinn Fein losing a huge amount of support, far more than any other party in the republic.

guinnessdrinker wrote:

Maybe some of the people you know are racist and bigotted and also vote for Sinn Fein but anybody I could say the same thing about people I know that vote for FF or FG or any other party.

I've no doubt that's true. Sinn Fein gets a far higher share of its support from the uneducated, labouring-classes than the other parties though.

djpbarry wrote:

At a time of net emigration, complaints about “mass immigration” scarcely warrant consideration.

A time of net emigration? Don't you mean at a time of predictions of net emigration? Or do you have any evidence that more foreigners are leaving the country than entering it? And including Irish people in the number emigrating really doesn't help your argument.

Even if we do have net emigration this year that doesn't mean that we need to have thousands of people entering the country taking our jobs. We have so many people out of work and we so many jobs being lost each week that any vacancies being created should go to people on the dole in this country rather than being filled by foreigners.

The latest I've seen, around 8 thousand PPS numbers were issued to non-nationals in the month of January this year. How many of those 8,000 took jobs that could have been filled by unemployed people in this country?

Soldie

Jon wrote: »

A good topic has been wrecked by those who don't wish to discuss the politics of Sinn Féin. Instead they load the thread with inaccuracies and ignorance.

On that note I gleefully inform you that the quote in your signature is fictional.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

...blah, blah, blah ... foreigners taking our jobs ... blah, blah, blah ...

Couldn't be bothered replying because (a) it's got nothing to do with this thread and (b) I really don't care anyway.

O'Morris

djpbarry, I'm not going to risk jeopardising our friendship by saying something I'll only regret after 5 minutes.

Donegalfella wrote:

No. I don't speak it, so how could it be part of my identity?

Because it's part of your country's heritage and it's the language spoken by your ancestors and it's a language that you spent nearly a decade learning in school in common with most other Irish adults.

Donegalfella wrote:

I speak French, so would consider that to be much more a part of my identity than Irish.

I find it very hard to believe that any Irish man could be so detached from his roots as to identify more with the French language than the Irish language.

Is ar teanga fein e!

guinnessdrinker

O'Morris wrote: »

Sinn Fein gets a far higher share of its support from the uneducated, labouring-classes than the other parties though.

This is possibly true but just because people are uneducated or from labouring-classes doesn't automatically make them racists or bigots.

Acacia

Jon wrote: »

As for it being a slow suicide in a national government, well time will tell when the country is unified and a national governement is elected by all the people of the island.

I'm confused by this statement. Imo, it will be a long, very long, time before there is a united Ireland, if ever. I don't see it as a very important issue at the moment, to be perfectly honest. This would be one of the things that would put me off voting for Sinn Fein- the bulk of their focus seems to be on the united Ireland question- behind that, I don't actually know what benefits they would bring to the country. Camelot says Mary Lou talks in sound-bites, and he has a point.

I'd vote for whoever can basically run the country without making a total mess of things. The thing is I don't see any party with anywhere near enough competence to do that.

Nodin

O'Morris wrote: »

Don't (....)needed..

I've voted PSF for over two decades. I'll take my own counsel on what constitutes the grassroots view, thanks.

O'Morris wrote: »

Try telling (......) eastern Europe.

I'm sure somebody, somewhere is interested in your views. Its doubtful if you'll find them in this thread though.

O'Morris wrote: »

Sinn Fein gets a far higher share of its support from the uneducated, labouring-classes .

Your love of, and compassion for your countrymen is touching.

luckyfrank

Hard to vote for sinn fein in any goverment especially if you aspire to a united ireland

Unionists would just 'shut up shop' with regards to the south

Slowly but surly little baby steps must be taken and in 20 or so years we might just have an embryonic united ireland on the agenda

NO TO SINN FEIN

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dlofnep

Yes, of course I'd support it.

the_syco

O'Morris wrote: »

Because it's part of your country's heritage and it's the language spoken by your ancestors and it's a language that you spent nearly a decade learning in school in common with most other Irish adults.

The language thought in the schools is a bástardised version of the language that's helpful for reading poems, and stories, but not for actual conversation, it would seem.

Sadly, during the famine, and the workhouses, the Irish language died with those who could not speak english.

The Raven.

O'Morris wrote: »

Is ar teanga fein e!

I would have thought it should be:

Is é ár theanga féin.

Thank you Camelot sean chara.

Also, when addressing someone as 'old friend' in Irish, I would say 'a shean-chara', although I don’t use that term.

As far as Sinn Féin are concerned, I would prefer if they stayed up north. We don’t really need them here. They seemed to be under the illusion that they would be welcomed in the south with open arms (no pun intended :eek:!!). I certainly wouldn’t vote for them, and more importantly, I wouldn’t vote for any party that would form a coalition with them. Too much baggage!


Oiche Mhaith mo Chairde!

Or should I say 'Gute Nacht' ?!

yomchi

The Raven. wrote: »

I would have thought it should be:

Is é ár theanga féin.



Also, when addressing someone as 'old friend' in Irish, I would say 'a shean-chara', although I don’t use that term.

As far as Sinn Féin are concerned, I would prefer if they stayed up north. We don’t really need them here. They seemed to be under the illusion that they would be welcomed in the south with open arms (no pun intended :eek:!!). I certainly wouldn’t vote for them, and more importantly, I wouldn’t vote for any party that would form a coalition with them. Too much baggage!


Oiche Mhaith mo Chairde!

Or should I say 'Gute Nacht' ?!

Tá tu ceart faoi an gramadach ansin!

You misunderstand SF in a geographical sense. Sinn Féin are not a northern party, they are a national party, in fact the only party on the island which is organised in all counties. Sinn Féin were originally founded in the south many years before the partition of our country. So saying you wish SF would stay up north is off the mark.

yomchi

Acacia wrote: »

I'm confused by this statement. Imo, it will be a long, very long, time before there is a united Ireland, if ever. I don't see it as a very important issue at the moment, to be perfectly honest. This would be one of the things that would put me off voting for Sinn Fein- the bulk of their focus seems to be on the united Ireland question- behind that, I don't actually know what benefits they would bring to the country. Camelot says Mary Lou talks in sound-bites, and he has a point.

I'd vote for whoever can basically run the country without making a total mess of things. The thing is I don't see any party with anywhere near enough competence to do that.

You are confused because you are reading my post out of context with what it replied to.
Sinn Féin were originally founded on the principles of independance (dual monarchism at first) then circa 1917 became a national republican party dedicated to the removal of foreign rule in the country.
However SF have since moving into main stream politics in 1986 developed a much more holistic view of the state(s) and are no longer a simple United Ireland party. In fact at the recent party Árd Fheis the first considerable part lof Gerry Adams speech was about the economy, it then dove tailed in to the sensless division of such a small island - Partition makes no sense - unity makes economic sense.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

djpbarry, I'm not going to risk jeopardising our friendship by saying something I'll only regret after 5 minutes.

Rest assured, there’s nothing to jeopardise.

Jon wrote: »

In fact at the recent party Árd Fheis the first considerable part lof Gerry Adams speech was about the economy, it then dove tailed in to the sensless division of such a small island - Partition makes no sense - unity makes economic sense.

So let’s hear Adams’ economic argument for unification…

O'Morris

guinnessdrinker wrote:

This is possibly true but just because people are uneducated or from labouring-classes doesn't automatically make them racists or bigots.

It doesn't automatically make them racists or bigots but it does make it more likely that they will vote for parties that take a tough line on immigration. It's the low-skilled, uneducated, labouring classes who lose out most from mass immigration of cheap labour and so it's in their interests for us to have a more restrictive immigration system.

The BNP gets most of it's support from the patriotic working-class demographic in Britain. The same constituency exists in Ireland and much of their vote goes to Sinn Fein. If a BNP style party was formed in this country you would a see a massive transfer of support from Sinn Fein to the new party.

Nodin wrote:

I've voted PSF for over two decades. I'll take my own counsel on what constitutes the grassroots view, thanks.

The kind of people who voted for Sinn Fein two decades ago are different from the kind of people who vote for them today. You voted for Sinn Fein at a time when the IRA were out bombing and killing and knee-capping people.

Nodin wrote:

I'm sure somebody, somewhere is interested in your views. Its doubtful if you'll find them in this thread though.

I'm sure most of the working-class people who vote for the same party as yourself would be very interested in my views. All I would need to do is form a new party called Sinn Fein Naisiunach and I would be sure to get a huge amount of support from that Provo voting demographic.

Nodin wrote:

Your love of, and compassion for your countrymen is touching.

Don't question my patriotism. I love my my people and my country and I would be prepared to sacrifice my life in their defence. There's nothing insulting about referring to people as uneducated. Some Irish people are uneducated and they deserve our support as much as anyone else.

Donegalfella wrote:

It might surprise you, but a great many Irish adults do not wistfully reminisce about their years of compulsory Irish. Many find the experience both excruciating and pointless, and it inculcates in them a lifelong hatred of the language.

I hated doing Irish in school and I was the worst in my class in the subject. I still developed a gra for the language after school though. Most people can separate their own experiences with learning the language from the value they attach to the language e fein. It's the same with other subjects as well. Many people hated doing geography or history or science in school but they still develop an interest and appreciation for those subjects when they leave school.

Donegalfella wrote:

For the record, my father's side of the family mostly immigrated from England during the nineteenth century. They have no historical relationship to Irish.

That would explain it. As a descendant of immigrants you don't attach the same value to this country's heritage as a descendant of the gael such as myself does. You don't consider this country's history to be the history of your ancestors in the way that I would. That's entirely understandable.

Donegalfella wrote:

Would you consider James Joyce and Samuel Beckett to be similarly detached?

Both of those gents were descended from people who spoke French. Joyce is a Norman name and Samuel Beckett was descended from French Huguenots.

Donegalfella wrote:

You seem to believe that if you paste enough Irish into this thread,

What do you mean paste enough Irish? Are you trying to suggest that those aren't my own words?

Donegalfella wrote:

I will come to understand it through some process of genetic-linguistic osmosis. It isn't working.

I wouldn't expect you to understand it through genetic-linguistic osmosis. I would expect you to understand it through having spent nearly a decade learning the language in school.

The Raven wrote:

I would have thought it should be:

Is é ár theanga féin.

I've always considered that to be a queer use of syntax. In the syntax of Connacht Irish (real Irish) the pronoun usually comes after the subject e.g. is fear e.

The Raven. wrote:

Also, when addressing someone as 'old friend' in Irish, I would say 'a shean-chara', although I don’t use that term.

An bhfuil tu ag iarraidh a thaispeant nach gaeilgeoir fior me toisc nach bhfuil me ag usaid an gramadach ceart? Nil me ag usaid an gramadach ceart as bearla ach an oiread ach ni fheachaim einne ag scriobh faoi sin. Ta me fos ag foghlaim an teanga agus ta me ag deanamh mo dhicheall. Ta nios mo gaeilge agam na Donegalfella agus sin an rud is tabhactacht. Ta me in gra le djpbarry chomh maith.

Nodin

O'Morris wrote: »

I The same constituency exists in Ireland and much of their vote goes to Sinn Fein..

And I'd see that you're entirely deluded. The BNP is a right wing, narrow minded racist party.

O'Morris wrote: »

If a BNP style party was formed in this country you would a see a massive transfer of support from Sinn Fein to the new party.

emmm....no. However theres always a few, and perhaps it would be as well if there was something to draw them away, leaving the rest better for their absence.