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Anyone for the Introduction of Fee's?

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    #32
    TDOie
    Registered Users Posts: 327 ✭✭TDOie


    Kaptain Redeye wrote: »


    They decided to work harder and/or longer hours and you want to punish them for this?

    You'd take the view that the person who makes the most money is the person who works the hardest and/or longest hours? Thats a very flawed logic dont you think?
    Not everyone was born with the oppertunity to go to University or get better job prospects.To take the view that someone busting their ass in Tesco's 60 hours a week on minimum wage doesnt work hard enough or long enough is totally flawed and narrow minded.

    Punish people who earn more? Well judging by the government recent decisions it seems to me that the Public sector is getting hit the hardest ( the majority of which are on average or lower pay) THIS doesnt seem fair to me.


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    #33
    mad lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 127 ✭✭mad lad


    mloc wrote: »
    still no suggestion of realistic alternatives.
    A publicly funded education system with tuition fees paid for through a progressive tax system. Combine this with programs aimed at adressing the barriers to education at earlier levels level (like school rentention initatives, proper language support services, an adequately funded National Educational Welfare Board to reduce truancy, the back to education allowance, childcare grants for VTOs, a decent grant system etc).

    The only 2 countries in the OECD that have substantially increased the ratio of people from lower socio-ecnomic backgrounds entering tertiary education are Sweden and the Netherlands - they've done it through taxation. It's empiracal, look for any of Clancys stuff in the library on access to education.

    If you can provide examples of countries in which the introduction of tuition fees has helped to increase equality of access, I'm all ears.


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    #34
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    TDOie wrote: »
    You'd take the view that the person who makes the most money is the person who works the hardest and/or longest hours? Thats a very flawed logic dont you think?

    No, I think its simplistic logic, but not so simple as to be flawed
    Not everyone was born with the oppertunity to go to University or get better job prospects.
    True that they may not have had the opportunity to go to college, but not as many high paying jobs at that time required a college education.
    I know far too many self made men over the age of 50 who literally started with nothing to believe that there was anyone who couldnt succeed.
    To take the view that someone busting their ass in Tesco's 60 hours a week on minimum wage doesnt work hard enough or long enough is totally flawed and narrow minded.

    Ive worked in department stores, its not difficult work. Tesco also isnt minimum wage and you wouldnt get a 60 hour week off them.

    Tesco is handy work that any monkey can do with half a days training.
    Punish people who earn more? Well judging by the government recent decisions it seems to me that the Public sector is getting hit the hardest ( the majority of which are on average or lower pay) THIS doesnt seem fair to me.

    You seem completely oblivious to what is going on in the job market at the moment. There have been massive redundancies and pay cuts in the private sector, the public sector are not taking the brunt of things nor are they being treated harsher than their private sector counter parts.


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    #35
    dattley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭dattley


    TDOie wrote: »
    Not FULL Fee's for everyone but like I think that the rich should pay for education (People with an income of over 150,000 or 100,000 or some set number around that). I dont think the average tax payer (Who Earns about $43,000 I think) Should pay for the Rich. Anyone feel the same?

    I don't know any students who make 100k a year. Do you?


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    #36
    Mini_Moose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Mini_Moose


    dattley wrote: »
    I don't know any students who make 100k a year. Do you?

    Frankly this is a very good point. I am a student too but am very much in favour of the reintrodution of fees.

    The hypothetical argument made about the farmer having three children all needing to go to college at the one time effectively causing their expenditure related to attendance exceeding the family's income is a very poor one.

    While some people will be lucky enough to have parents that could pay for them every step of the way many people won't and regardless I think everyone should have to pay fees.

    As far as I can see the most effective solution would be for the government to introduce a facility for students to take out interest free loans, much like the system sed in some other EU countries.
    And before anyone says it no they won't be crippled by debt once they leave university rendering the the whole process meaningless.


    On a slightly different note there are far too many people going to university who frankly take it for granted and do next to no work. If education is a right at least make the most of it! The introduction of fees may go some way to changing peoples lazy attitudes.


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    #37
    theboat
    Registered Users Posts: 268 ✭✭theboat


    I'm not completely sold one way or the other, but I do feel that nobody needs 100 grand or more to live on. So, it's not entirely unfair to expect parents earning that kind of money to pay more for their kids' college than those on ~30,000.
    It's pretty difficult to say "that job's much harder than this one" etc., but I don't think that, by and large, the highest earners are those who always work the hardest of the longest. To take one example: to be a professional musician, it takes many years of intensive practice, anti-social hours and working in crappy venues, and you still don't make more than an average wage.
    The fact is, some jobs just pay more than others. If you're lucky enough to be in one of those (be it through hard work or whatever else) I don't think it's unreasonable to charge fees for your children's education, seeing as the system badly needs more money.

    But, as I said at the start, I'm not fully decided on anything...


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    #38
    Stabshauptmann
    Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭Stabshauptmann


    theboat wrote: »
    I'm not completely sold one way or the other, but I do feel that nobody needs 100 grand or more to live on.

    Thankfully we dont live in a communist state. People who chose to do what it takes to earn this much money find uses for it.
    So, it's not entirely unfair to expect parents earning that kind of money to pay more for their kids' college than those on ~30,000.

    They do, they pay far far more.
    Lets use the example you choose, 100k vs 30k. The first person earns just over three times what the second does, but pays more than 8 times as much tax. Infact in your example, the rich person pays more tax than the average person earns in a year.

    I wish that muppets would stop taking through their ass' about what people can afford to pay when they know nothing about what the current system is.
    It's pretty difficult to say "that job's much harder than this one" etc., but I don't think that, by and large, the highest earners are those who always work the hardest of the longest. To take one example: to be a professional musician, it takes many years of intensive practice, anti-social hours and working in crappy venues, and you still don't make more than an average wage.

    Not true. My brother, sister, housemate, and several of my close friends are musicians (2 of them full time). A half decent musician in Ireland could earn 200eur a gig. 200eur for one hours work. And Im not talking about people you'd have even heard of, just the random guy in the corner playing his guitar and singing covers. Again, dont talk through your arse.
    The fact is, some jobs just pay more than others.
    No, its not just random. Its supply and demand. Its basic economics. Those with the most valuable skills are paid more. So either you can do something that not many other people can - like being a really good musician, or you can do something that is badly needed - like construction a few years back.
    Its not random.
    If you're lucky enough to be in one of those (be it through hard work or whatever else) I don't think it's unreasonable to charge fees for your children's education, seeing as the system badly needs more money.

    Eh, more socialist / communist BS? From each according to their ability eh? Whats the point in working twice as hard as your neighbour if you dont get paid more? If people have no incentive to work harder they dont.
    But, as I said at the start, I'm not fully decided on anything...

    You're not informed on anything.


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    #39
    theboat
    Registered Users Posts: 268 ✭✭theboat


    Kaptain Redeye wrote: »
    Thankfully we dont live in a communist state. People who chose to do what it takes to earn this much money find uses for it.



    They do, they pay far far more.
    Lets use the example you choose, 100k vs 30k. The first person earns just over three times what the second does, but pays more than 8 times as much tax. Infact in your example, the rich person pays more tax than the average person earns in a year.
    Point taken.
    Kaptain Redeye wrote: »
    I wish that muppets would stop taking through their ass' about what people can afford to pay when they know nothing about what the current system is.
    A little unnecessary. I never professed to be an expert.


    Kaptain Redeye wrote: »
    Not true. My brother, sister, housemate, and several of my close friends are musicians (2 of them full time). A half decent musician in Ireland could earn 200eur a gig. 200eur for one hours work. And Im not talking about people you'd have even heard of, just the random guy in the corner playing his guitar and singing covers. Again, dont talk through your arse.
    My dad's one of those "random guys in the corner", so I'm not actually 'talking through my arse' (nice). He might make 200e for a gig, but he still only makes a just about average week's wages, and the working conditions are often unpleasant, and as I said, it takes much longer than 4 years of college to become properly 'qualified' to work as a musician.

    Kaptain Redeye wrote: »
    No, its not just random. Its supply and demand. Its basic economics. Those with the most valuable skills are paid more. So either you can do something that not many other people can - like being a really good musician, or you can do something that is badly needed - like construction a few years back.
    Its not random.
    Fine, but...
    Kaptain Redeye wrote: »
    Eh, more socialist / communist BS? From each according to their ability eh? Whats the point in working twice as hard as your neighbour if you dont get paid more? If people have no incentive to work harder they dont.
    I never said anything about working twice as hard. Those who do deserve to get paid more, but that often doesn't happen.I was also going to mention something about job satisfaction and other "yeah-but-not-in-the-real world" 'BS', but you'd probably berate me.


    Kaptain Redeye wrote: »
    You're not informed on anything.
    That's not quite fair or accurate.:rolleyes:

    Also:
    Kaptain Redeye wrote: »
    taking through their ass'
    I refer you to an earlier post by graduate...


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