Master of Puppets Discussion Thread

Motley Crue

The other day I was thinking, Master of Puppets was released while the band were on tour with Ozzy Osbourne, and slow sales initally grew. Coupled with the media attention the band must have recieved when Cliff died and the fact they toured with Osbourne (arguably their most mainstream, if not most accessible, tour to date) that is MOP the "miracle" everyone says it is?

If you look at Ride the Lightning, the music makes huge leaps and bounds from what it was on Kill Em All, so much so its remarkable that RTL was released just a year later. Of course, we know that most of KEA's material had been written well before it was recorded, but still...the gap between RTL simply see's Metallica attempting to find the metal stylings of KEA and mix them with the technical prophiency of RTL

Im not saying Master of Puppets is not a good album, but I am asking, if it is Metallica's best - especially when you consider that if the production had of been a little better on And Justice for All this might have well been the most well recieved. If the band had been a little more well known in 1984, perhaps RTL would have sold better, therefore that would have been THE album.

Lets not forget, RTL got Metallica signed to a major label, so someone had to think the band had another RTL in them....whats to say MOP was that album?

Doctor J

Could this not be part of your Metallica thread? Do we need loads of Metallica threads?

Motley Crue

Doctor J wrote: »

Could this not be part of your Metallica thread? Do we need loads of Metallica threads?

I think its an issue that needs discussion seperately, personally I think its something that might take over the Metallica thread...and Im trying to look at their entire career in that one rather than just one album and its effect.

nyarlothothep

While I think RTL is a good album, MOP just feels like it has a greater scope and a more focused concept at the same time. They refined their style and brought it close to perfection on MOP. It has a more epic feel overall. I'm not a fan of AJFA, it has some great songs but a lot of it sounds fairly uninspired imo, just chug chug chugging away in the background if you know what I mean. One thing RTl has over MOP is that Lars choice of snare was perfect, whereas on MOP its a bit chattery.

ShawnRaven

Personally speaking, I think the band shot themselves in the foot with this album. It was so ahead of it's time and it has aged well given that it's 23 years old. This album set the bar for a lot of albums to come, not only for themselves but other bands too, in fact it also put rival band Megadeth under a lot of pressure who were in the midst of recording Peace Sells.

Not like that wasn't a bad thing either, that pressure really would have brought the best out of Mustaine & Co, had it not, i don't think Peace Sells would have been the album that it is today either

But i do think that by Metallica setting that bar, they also set it too high for themselves. People can say everything they want to about anything that was released after Puppets, as it's all a matter of personal taste, but in my honest opinion, the band have never been able to top the work they did on Puppets.

But at least they've gone back to trying.

120_Minutes

MOP was the right album at the right time, but by a hairs breath IMO. you could argue that you could interchange RTL and MOP and metallicas career probably wouldnt have changed drastically. you can begin to hear the progressive elements that were to come on AJFA, which were not really evident on RTL (barring maybe ktulu)

you have to remember that while touring with ozzy (often blowing him off the stage) they were probably playing a lot from MOP in that slot. which resulted in album sales, which resulted in the ozzy tour being the last as supporting artists.

media attenion surrounding cliffs death had nothing to do with the initial success of MOP.

Patricide

Personally prefer RTL but only by a fraction. There both great albums. We should just be happy that they both exist .

Malice

I prefer Ride The Lightning but that's not to say that Master Of Puppets is a poor album. Both albums should be part of any metal fan's collection.

ShawnRaven

Musically, RTL will win it for me, only by a narrow margain.
Vocally, Puppets everytime, James sounds like he has vice grips on his nuts for RTL.

jpm4

RTL is a classic, MOP is a masterpiece - that's the difference as far as I'm concerned. On RTL they has some great ideas but I think executing them perfectly was a little beyond the bands ability at the time. They nailed it on Puppets.

I think if you grew up with the band and heard RTL before Puppets I'd say you'd be more likely to favour RTL.

Malice

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Musically, RTL will win it for me, only by a narrow margain.
Vocally, Puppets everytime, James sounds like he has vice grips on his nuts for RTL.

That's actually a very good point that I had never really considered. The vocal delivery is certainly better on Master Of Puppets. James tends to shriek a lot on Ride The Lightning.

jpm4 wrote: »

I think if you grew up with the band and heard RTL before Puppets I'd say you'd be more likely to favour RTL.

This is certainly true in my case! The order in which I heard the classic Metallica albums went Ride The Lightning -> Kill 'Em All -> Black Album -> Master of Puppets -> Justice For All. As a result I probably don't give Master of Puppets as much acclaim as many other people seem to.

Patricide

jpm4 wrote: »

RTL is a classic, MOP is a masterpiece - that's the difference as far as I'm concerned. On RTL they has some great ideas but I think executing them perfectly was a little beyond the bands ability at the time. They nailed it on Puppets.

I think if you grew up with the band and heard RTL before Puppets I'd say you'd be more likely to favour RTL.

I personally started on puppets, still prefer rtl, but thats just me!

ShawnRaven

jpm4 wrote: »

I think if you grew up with the band and heard RTL before Puppets I'd say you'd be more likely to favour RTL.

I got into Metallica in 1990, a real in between period for the band musically, but could never take to AJFA. Loved both Puppets and Lightning but preferred Puppets, probably me being biased as Puppets was the first album I had heard, so I was kinda spoilt, to a degree.

malice_ wrote: »

That's actually a very good point that I had never really considered. The vocal delivery is certainly better on Master Of Puppets. James tends to shriek a lot on Ride The Lightning.

He does it on Kill 'em All too. With puppets, it just seemed that after all those years, he finally discovered how to use his voice properly.

Motley Crue

ShawnRaven wrote: »

]He does it on Kill 'em All too. With puppets, it just seemed that after all those years, he finally discovered how to use his voice properly.

James claims to have lost his voice around the time of the Black album so badly that he had to retrain himself to sing, as such the songs from then onwards took a different tone as he was taught an original method to the one he was using

A7X

Kill 'em all - Much harsher sound which really brings the band down to ground for me anyway. Some of the song structers aren't that great, but they were perfect for the scene they were playing in. IMO Hammets solo's were at technical best but no where near his best in regards to "feel".

Ride The Lightning - IMO Metallica's step to MOP. You can really hear it on some songs. Some have the full MOP feel "Fade to Black" whereas others have half and half "Fight Fire With Fire".

Master of Puppets - Song structers were very well done. Hammets solo's were at their peak for feel and being just right for the song. The main difference I find with this album and the others is that I would listen to every song without wanting to skip.

...And Justice For All - As an overall album, I just really didn't enjoy it. Although I do like some songs on it I would never listen to it fully in one go.

This is my opinion dunno if many will agree.

nyarlothothep

Orion is what does it for me, an 8 minute genius musical odysessy, which if I may be so pretentious, is darkly baroque. Leper Messiah is unusual as James Hetfields lyrics are good, Disposable Heros has an epic guitar solo.

ShawnRaven

Motley Crue wrote: »

James claims to have lost his voice around the time of the Black album so badly that he had to retrain himself to sing, as such the songs from then onwards took a different tone as he was taught an original method to the one he was using

I don't entirely buy that as such, unless he lost his voice between Lightning and Puppets, cos to me, his vocal style has been consistant from Puppets onwards.