If Arsenal finish outside top 4...

kronsington

could this realistically be (potentially) the end of arsene's time at arsenal?
now im a major arsene wenger admirer , and have been since he joined the club in 96, but for the first time i've really begun to lose faith and patience with him and his team. for the first time during his tenure, you sense he is not completely in control of things at the club. his mystifying stubbornness, inability to see his team's faults has reach unprecendented levels. this season has simply been appalling. no trophies for 4 years. im tired of the same interviews week after week about how great this young team is etc. how many years has this been? every summer one of our big names is linked with a move away- i can see the same this summer with the likes of rvp, adebayor and maybe even cesc acting up. arsenal are a great club and wenger is arguablly the greatest thing ever to happen to this club but something is seriously not right. i really do think this team will struggle to get in the top 4. i watched the "greatest arsenal goals" dvd over christmas and while it was a great watch, i ws actually pretty sad by the end. sad because of the greats that have left the club the last few years- henry, vieira, overmars, pires, ljungberg and my all time favourite bergkamp.these players were part of great teams that won things. this current team are simply not good enough to mount a title challenge. wenger's attitude and demeanour have really started to p*ss me off this year. i found the fact he claimed he didnt see eboue's second yellow against tottenham quite insulting. it was right in front of him!

i know a lot of arsenal fans have an unwaivering faith in wenger, like he is some sort of deity. but really, you have to admit, things have really gone downhill at this club, and have done for some time. and the future success of the club is what counts. this many years without a trophy at a club like this is unnacceptable. i may have egg on my face in may if they win the champions league (hardly) but when you're best chance of silverware in january/february is the FA cup, it's pathetic. i forgot to mention that failing to replace flamini was frankly mindboggling and while i respect wenger for sticking to his principles on matters, this line of thinking has affected the club's progress on the pitch.

so, any thoughts?

i suppose this is a bit of a rant at the state of things on the pitch. but surely to god im not the only one disheartened by arsene and the team right now?

Zonda999

I think he'd be gone alright if they don't qualify for the CL but I can see them fighting back yet. Chelsea are improving alright but Villa are on a downward spiral and before long they'll find themselves below Arsenal I think

PHB

Who'd be better? With no big transfer budget? Who else you gona get

Royale with Cheese

PHB wrote: »

Who'd be better? With no big transfer budget? Who else you gona get

Exactly, I'm frustrated with things at the moment like any other Arsenal fan. But really, who's going to do any better? Somebody like David Moyes I think would be good but even Everton have more money than Arsenal.

And I wouldn't pay any attention to his interviews, what he says in public and what he says in private would be two very different things I'd say.

wandatowell

kronsington wrote: »

i know a lot of arsenal fans have an unwaivering faith in wenger

This is where the problem lies, the board and fans have shown way too much faith in Arsene, it makes my blood ****in boil when I see those retarded "In Arsene We Trust" signs that fans plaster up around the grove.

premierstone

wandatowell wrote: »

This is where the problem lies, the board and fans have shown way too much faith in Arsene, it makes my blood ****in boil when I see those retarded "In Arsene We Trust" signs that fans plaster up around the grove.

How on earth is it retarded to show faith in the most successful manager in the clubs history, personally what i find retarded is people who question someone for not reaching the standards that the club has become accustomed to without realising that the very man they are questioning is the one who set those standards in the first place :mad:

Try and remeber where we were in between the Graham and wenger era's might give a little perspective!

mike65

Villa have just made Arsenals job that bit harder, they are exiting the UEFA Cup by design this Thursday

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/aston_villa/article5795376.ece

Clearly MON had decided 4th is what counts.

whatawaster

If Wenger goes, Fabregas, Van Persie, Adebayor, Clichy, Sagna . . . could all very well leave. Just losing Fabregas and Van Persie would be catastrophic for the club.

eagle eye

whatawaster wrote: »

If Wenger goes, Fabregas, Van Persie, Adebayor, Clichy, Sagna . . . could all very well leave. Just losing Fabregas and Van Persie would be catastrophic for the club.

Thats the very reason that Arsenal should be a lot better than they presently are, for me its a money thing at this moment in time.
I think they took a gamble this year that they could hold on to a top 4 spot and put CL money to good use in the summer. They need to improve the centre of defence and they need a defensive minded midfielder. If they fill those three positions in the summer and hold on to what they've got they will be right back in the thick of it next season imo.

I've been shocked by Toure's loss of form, he has looked terrible this season. I don't think Gallas is as good as he was either.

Wenger is a wonderful manager and imo his leaving/sacking would spell disaster for Arsenal both in the short and long term.

mirwillbeback

Zonda999 wrote: »

I think he'd be gone alright if they don't qualify for the CL but I can see them fighting back yet. Chelsea are improving alright but Villa are on a downward spiral and before long they'll find themselves below Arsenal I think

Downward spiral ? A narrow 1 - 0 loss to another member of the " big 4 ", first league defeat since November, loss to Everton in cup competition MON suggested wasn't important, and draw in UEFA Cup held so highly by the club 8 first teamers left at home for the second leg.

Oh yeah, we're ****ed. :rolleyes:

wandatowell

premierstone wrote: »

How on earth is it retarded to show faith in the most successful manager in the clubs history

He's won nothing for years, the team is the worst we've seen since he took over. At any of europes major clubs 4 years without a trophy = the sack.

Arsenal fans seem happy just be be qualifying for the Champions League

premierstone wrote: »

Try and remeber where we were in between the Graham and wenger era's might give a little perspective!

Here's all the perspective I need http://www.premierleague.com/page/LeagueTables/0,,12306,00.html

eagle eye

Zonda999 wrote: »

I think he'd be gone alright if they don't qualify for the CL but I can see them fighting back yet. Chelsea are improving alright but Villa are on a downward spiral and before long they'll find themselves below Arsenal I think

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

L'prof

kronsington wrote: »

could this realistically be (potentially) the end of arsene's time at arsenal?

I don't think so and I certainly hope not, but if it did happen I think it would very quickly become apparant as to just how important to the club he is!

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Downward spiral ? A narrow 1 - 0 loss to another member of the " big 4 ", first league defeat since November, loss to Everton in cup competition MON suggested wasn't important, and draw in UEFA Cup held so highly by the club 8 first teamers left at home for the second leg.

Oh yeah, we're ****ed. :rolleyes:

It's not quite as dramatic as Villa being on a downward spiral, but prioritising the Champions League spot ahead of all other competitions is a mistake!

invincibleirish

Arsenals prudent approach to their finances and business will really come apparent if they don't make CL this year. If Pool/Chelsea didn't make CL they go into immediate financial meltdown, but Arsenal will still sell out the stadium every week and still have cash available i'm sure for Wenger to improve his team.

It'll be a bad season for Arsenal if they don't make CL, but would be totally short sighted if they dumped Wenger, imo there's a few egos like Adebayor, Gallas & Bentdner that Arsenal could do without rather then losing the manager. probably still be favourites to make top 4 next year if Villa don't spend big in the summer.

destroyer

Wenger lost it about 3 years ago IMO.
All we hear about is how the future is great, young kids, next season etc
etc. He is too stubborn to spend money even if he had it because he
believes the hype about himself and how he is this genius who will
"discover" rough gems and turn them into the best players on the planet.
Never thought i'd say this but i actually feel a bit sorry for gunner fans
at the moment. You will never win another trophy of substance under
Wenger end of story.
Also not spending money gives him the excuse for failure which he
is looking for every season now. It's part of the whole self delusional
aura around him now like never seeing his own players indiscretions
or thinking his team were unlucky when in fact they have been
outplayed. Time to bite the bullet Gunners and send Wenger packing.

Mr Alan

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Downward spiral ? A narrow 1 - 0 loss to another member of the " big 4 ", first league defeat since November, loss to Everton in cup competition MON suggested wasn't important, and draw in UEFA Cup held so highly by the club 8 first teamers left at home for the second leg.

Oh yeah, we're ****ed. :rolleyes:

i see wat you did there

needless to say, you're wrong.

Top 4-Yes,currently.
Big 4-Not a chance. Not even nearly.

Hank Scorpio

Man is a genius

destroyer

in his own eyes

Galvasean

Although Im currently a very frustrated Arsenal fan Im not gonna call for Wenger's head until the season is over. In light of what the man has done for the club he deserves to get the full season and be judged accordingly. If we get a top 4 finish and win the FA Cup it will have been a very good season overall.
Heck if we were to finish 5th or 6th but won the Champions League (along with the qualification spot that goes with it) I'd be a very happy Gooner indeed.

invincibleirish

Mr Alan wrote: »

i see wat you did there

needless to say, you're wrong.

Top 4-Yes,currently.
Big 4-Not a chance. Not even nearly.

You're both wrong. there is no big 4. There is 1 big club, thats Man Utd, 2 if you want to include Chelsea, that is teams capable of spending 40-50+ million year after year and chasing the title and CL.

Then you have the rest trying to catch up, sure the CL monies create distortions in income but don't let that fool you into thinking there is a big 4, Arsenal look like falling this season, who knows who it'll be next season.

yahoo_moe

A lot of this seems to be just the same tired old arguments about Wenger being stubborn or blind to his team's faults.

For me, that misses the point - I don't think we've really been set up to challenge for league titles for a few years now. And I mean that we're not set up to challenge for league titles by design. Sure, they'll go for the best possible finish (see last year's domestic overachievement) but winning league titles hasn't really been the main aim for the last few years. Luck plays a much bigger part in the CL so with the right breaks, that would've been a much more realistic possibility and one we could certainly have picked up at some point.

Personally, I'm prepared to be patient as long as I see progress in the team - that's stalled a bit since Flamini and more especially Hleb and Diarra (after all, their contracts showed that they were very much bought to stick around) left and since Toure lost form and fitness about midway through last season, but I'm not giving up hope yet and I'd hate hate hate to see Wenger leave.

I'm just grateful the board seems to have more of a clue than a lot of people here.

Galvasean

The way I seeit is there's a very big 2 (United and Chelsea), a big 2 (Arsenal and Liverpool) and a potentially big 2 (Villa and Everton).

Highsider

whatawaster wrote: »

If Wenger goes, Fabregas, Van Persie, Adebayor, Clichy, Sagna . . . could all very well leave. Just losing Fabregas and Van Persie would be catastrophic for the club.

How you figure? Do you have inside info. Maybe they can't stand wenger and can't wait for him to leave

Highsider

Galvasean wrote: »

The way I seeit is there's a very big 2 (United and Chelsea), a big 2 (Arsenal and Liverpool) and a potentially big 2 (Villa and Everton).

United and Liverpool are the big two. When Chelsea win at least one European cup they can then think about being a part of the top clubs in England imo. Money does not make you a big club....trophys do.

Daysha

Highsider wrote: »

United and Liverpool are the big two. When Chelsea win at least one European cup they can then think about being a part of the top clubs in England imo. Money does not make you a big club....trophys do.

This concept is something I've never understood. Notts Forest have won 2 European Cups, are they a bigger club than Chelsea?

destroyer

yahoo_moe wrote: »

For me, that misses the point - I don't think we've really been set up to challenge for league titles for a few years now. And I mean that we're not set up to challenge for league titles by design..

WTF
Deliberately not challenging for league ?
And you dont think the manager should be sacked ???
If thats the case he should be sued.

invincibleirish

Highsider wrote: »

United and Liverpool are the big two. When Chelsea win at least one European cup they can then think about being a part of the top clubs in England imo. Money does not make you a big club....trophys do.

Welcome to the 21st Century, pull up a chair and make yourself at home. Its all about the Money, and who has it. right now in the PL its Man Utd, Chelsea and Man City at the back, they are the top dogs. G'wan away with your trophy cabinet talk, thats sooo 20th century.

Mr Alan

deise59 wrote: »

This concept is something I've never understood. Notts Forest have won 2 European Cups, are they a bigger club than Chelsea?

no.

but if we went in a time machine and they were still in the PL, fighting for titles, competing in Europe year in year out, winning numerous trophies, yes, then they would be bigger than Chelsea.

There is a big two in England. Liverpool & Utd.

They are in a different league to other clubs in England. Then there is two behind them-Arsenal & Chelsea.

This is indipuable imo.

invincibleirish

Mr Alan wrote: »

This is indipuable imo.

Hardly, Man Utd are on their own out front Mr. Alan. Everyone is trying to play catch up.

therecklessone

Wow, this is like deja vu all over again...

Daysha

Mr Alan wrote: »

no.

but if we went in a time machine and they were still in the PL, fighting for titles, competing in Europe year in year out, winning numerous trophies, yes, then they would be bigger than Chelsea.

There is a big two in England. Liverpool & Utd.

They are in a different league to other clubs in England. Then there is two behind them-Arsenal & Chelsea.

This is indipuable imo.

A bit contradicatory don't you think?

You say Liverpool are one of the big 2 because of their great history and all the trophies they've won.....and then you put Chelsea right behind them even though they've nowhere near the historical greatness as Notts Forest, Everton, or any other team that's enjoyed reasonable success in the past.

If we're defining "big" as the number of trophies won, then yeah United and Liverpool are way ahead.

But if we're defining "big" as current greatness as how good the team are on the pitch at this very moment, then Liverpool are definitely still behind Chelsea.

NabyLadistheman

I reckon Arsenal will still make it. It's vital they do but if they don't I can't see Arsene going. If they scrap top 4 this season they will be in fine fettle for next season, especially considering the injuries they have had

Adebeyor
Rosicky
Eduardo
Walcott
Fabregas

Add these to the likes of Van Persie, Arshavin, Nasri and you have one hell of a team. Id love to see them get everyone fit and playin together next season. They obviously need to but a strong central defender & holding Midfielder

It would be a true Justification for Arsene Wenger considering the cash he's spent to build this team

invincibleirish

To paraphrase David Cameron; Spurs: you were the future once. Whats your take on it recklessone? will Villa do a Spurs on it and blow our chances?

Galvasean

Highsider wrote: »

United and Liverpool are the big two. When Chelsea win at least one European cup they can then think about being a part of the top clubs in England imo. Money does not make you a big club....trophys do.

Chelsea are bigger than Liverpool at the moment. they've won the Premier League and challenge for it consistently (I know its down to russian oil money, but alas thats the way the world works at the moment). Granted Liverpool have a much more honoured history than Chelsea, but in recent history Chelsea have been a bigger force.
Yes, i'm also aware that Liverpool have indeed won the Champions League in recent history, but they havent come close to winning the Premier League (maybe they'll change that this season, but its looking less likely as the games tick by). To be a top team you have to be consistently challenging for the league title. that's why I don't consider Liverpool or Arsenal to be in the very top tier of English football.

L'prof

destroyer wrote: »

You will never win another trophy of substance under Wenger end of story.

Time to bite the bullet Gunners and send Wenger packing.

I'm sorry, but has to be the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time! Things don't look good at the moment, but with a virtually injury free season or a few additions to the squad Arsenal would be in great shape to challenge for any competition!

invincibleirish

As i said in Villa thread i can picture Arsenal winning the CL as Villa take 4th. How i would despair.

Highsider

invincibleirish wrote: »

Hardly, Man Utd are on their own out front Mr. Alan. Everyone is trying to play catch up.

Afraid you are way off the mark there lad. Manchester United have being playing catch up to Liverpool over the last 20 odd years and still have'nt done it.Not saying they won't but they at this moment are lagging behind

Galvasean

Highsider wrote: »

Afraid you are way off the mark there lad. Manchester United have being playing catch up to Liverpool over the last 20 odd years and still have'nt done it.Not saying they won't but they at this moment are lagging behind

What a crock of old hat. You cant use statistics dug up from the past to say Liverpool are better than United. United have kept Liverpool away from the summit of the Premiership since it began.

Quint

Highsider wrote: »

Afraid you are way off the mark there lad. Manchester United have being playing catch up to Liverpool over the last 20 odd years and still have'nt done it.Not saying they won't but they at this moment are lagging behind

Damn, I was drinking tea when I read that and it shot out my nose! Give us a warning when you're going to write stuff like that!

Frisbee

Well done.
You've managed to turn an Arsenal thread into another United/Liverpool fanboy w@nkfest, fantastic.


Wenger should not be sacked at the end of this season, no way.
This season and next season to rebuild. Then he'll only have a year left on his contract which he'll probably see out then leave to go manage back in France.

NabyLadistheman

Yet another thread ruined with stupid bickering about United & Pool. This place is gone to the dogs

Great to see that of that Off-Topic posting is alive & well...and not being moderated for that matter

yahoo_moe

destroyer wrote: »

WTF
Deliberately not challenging for league ?
And you dont think the manager should be sacked ???
If thats the case he should be sued.

I'm saying that I think the board (and therefore, the manager, who can only follow the board's plans or walk away) has had priorities in the last few years other than going all out to win the league.

Just like Wigan, Everton, Spurs, Fulham, Man City, etc. have had priorities other than winning the league. Nice if you happen to pick it up (more likely for Arsenal than any of those other teams I think we'll all agree) or come close like last year, but the club hasn't been solely focused on pursuing that kind of success.

Only one team wins the Premier League each year so it's clear that big spending guarantees nothing - I think Arsenal have chosen to take a back seat on that front in the last few years (partly with the new stadium on their minds no doubt). Don't you? Do you honestly not see a difference between how Arsenal has existed in the last few years and how Chelsea/Liverpool/United have?

Quint

torresistheman wrote: »

Yet another thread ruined with stupid bickering about United & Pool. This place is gone to the dogs

Great to see that of that Off-Topic posting is alive & well...and not being moderated for that matter

Report the post.


Anyway, as a neutral, I can't think of anything better than arsenal dropping out of the top 4. Villa with MON just makes it even better.

invincibleirish

Apologies for going OT, what will the reaction be amongst the Arsenal public be if they don't get into CL next season? Arshavin is a great signing but its your defence and centre mid which is where your weaknesses are this season. With or without CL money i would hazard Wenger needs to spend big and clear out some deadwood as this Arsenal team has not had the va-va voom that previous vintage's had?

therecklessone

Frisbee wrote: »

Well done.
You've managed to turn an Arsenal thread into another United/Liverpool fanboy w@nkfest, fantastic.

That's what I was trying to hint at with my previous post.

L'prof

invincibleirish wrote: »

Apologies for going OT, what will the reaction be amongst the Arsenal public be if they don't get into CL next season? Arshavin is a great signing but its your defence and centre mid which is where your weaknesses are this season. With or without CL money i would hazard Wenger needs to spend big and clear out some deadwood as this Arsenal team has not had the va-va voom that previous vintage's had?

Personally, I'd go insane without Champions League football! Wenger doesn't need to spend big, but I'd hope for 3 signings that can challenge for first team places. As for clearing out dead wood, we need to keep some of the more experienced players in the squad as they are few and far between at the moment, but there are a few who just aren't good enough!

therecklessone

torresistheman wrote: »

Yet another thread ruined with stupid bickering about United & Pool. This place is gone to the dogs

Great to see that of that Off-Topic posting is alive & well...and not being moderated for that matter

You were given good advice by Quint, bear that in mind for the future.

therecklessone

Mod note:

From this point onwards, any attempt to derail this thread will be severely dealt with. I don't care who is a big side, who is a top side, who has the most trophies, who has the biggest swinging dick.

End it, now.

SlickRic

this 'mine is bigger than yours' talk is fascinating and all, but put down the handbags people...

[mod]snipped the rest, I'll assume you were composing that post when I posted my warning - TRO[/mod]

back on topic :pac: wenger should stay, simply for the fact that there is no-one that could do what he does for that club. if you want stability and the chance to challenge over a long period of time, keep him, if you want instant success then get in someone else, flood him with a €100m for 3or4 superstars, and go into debt.

i realise many fans would take spending the money, i understand that, but wenger is a legend and shouldn't be cast aside easily. if arsenal will endeavour with balancing the books and investing in youth, then you may as well keep wenger because nobody will do that better than him.

my 2 cents....

EDIT: sorry mod, i just saw you're warning after posting. though this post is designed to defuse. anyway apologies.

Frisbee

Wenger will see out his contract.
And when he leaves the people who were calling for his head will wish he had never left.
We're one player away from a title challenge, I'm trusting Arsene will see the gap over the remainder of the season and remedy it.

Daysha

Apologies for going off topic.

Personally, I think if Arsenal don't reach the CL, and either Fabregas or Adebayor leave in the summer, that could spell the end for Wenger. Even as a United fan though, I hope I'm wrong. A great manager like Arsene doesn't deserve to leave in those kind of circumstances.