European super-league proposal is back

stovelid

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

eirebhoy wrote: »

As long as it includes Celtic it's a definite yes for me.

It won't.

eirebhoy

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

stovelid wrote: »

It won't.

Any links to this proposal?

Anto McC

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

Yeah why not. I'd love for even a small few Irish premiership fans to know what it feels like to be marginalized. It'll have **** all effect on the LoI

CiaranC

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

Anto McC wrote: »

Yeah why not. I'd love for even a small few Irish premiership fans to know what it feels like to be marginalized. It'll have **** all effect on the LoI

This wouldnt marginalise the large majority of Irish premiership fans. They are exactly who an enterprise like this is aimed at.

pablomakaveli

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

I think the whole notion of a European Superleague is complete and utter nonsense. If such a thing ever came in to existence it it would be purely a result of the greed of the bigger clubs.

The players would probably be all overpaid primadonnas and the teams involved would become nothing more than souless franchises more concerned with money than fans.

The whole thing would probably fail after a few years anyway as the novelty would wear off on the vast majority of football fans.

Anto McC

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

CiaranC wrote: »

This wouldnt marginalise the large majority of Irish premiership fans. They are exactly who an enterprise like this is aimed at.

Which is why i said "a small few"

therecklessone

Anto McC wrote: »

Yeah why not. I'd love for even a small few Irish premiership fans to know what it feels like to be marginalized. It'll have **** all effect on the LoI

That's a lovely sentiment.

You want hundreds of thousands of English fans to have their league destroyed, and their clubs to be pushed aside, just so you can feel smug about a small number of Irish fans who'll be affected?

Hell, don't even bother with England, look at the second tier European leagues who'll suffer as a result.

From where I'm standing that's a pretty petty and small-minded attitude.

Anto McC

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

Yeah, you're right it is! What? Am i supposed to see the err of my ways and apologise.

If it happened maybe then these "premiership" supporters will go back to supporting their local teams and not the nearest team to them thats in the premiership, which is another crime perpertrated by Rupert Murdoch and Sky Sports, typified by that horrible wanker Tim Lovejoy who used to support Watford.

Look at all the lower league English clubs going to the wall, or on the verge. That was never a thing that happened 15 years, it point blank wasn't allowed happen.

therecklessone

Anto McC wrote: »

If it happened maybe then these "premiership" supporters will go back to supporting their local teams and not the nearest team to them thats in the premiership, which is another crime perpertrated by Rupert Murdoch and Sky Sports

I must say that to my mate Steve on Thursday night...he's been going to Spurs since 1969, lived in Edmonton all his life...born to parents who met in Tottenham, his dad went to White Hart Lane from the time he returned from his service in the RAF in WW2...they married in a Tottenham church, and his dad was buried in the same church last year, after dying the morning after the Carling Cup final...Steve works as a postman, whose round includes Fore St just north of White Hart Lane...what a plastic :rolleyes:

I could try my mate Helen who was brought up on Park Lane right behind White Hart Lane, and who had Bill Nicholson's wife as a babysitter.

Or maybe my other mate Steve, who met his wife while living in Tottenham and married her in the social centre right beside Tottenham Hale train station.

Yeah you're right, they can all fcuk off and support the Orient...:rolleyes:

Maybe you could drop the LOI militancy for one moment and think about the enormous damage a superleague would do to fans of countless clubs, big and small, across Europe? Just so you can get your kicks?

Anto McC

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

That breeze you felt though your hair a few minutes ago, was my post going straight over your head.

therecklessone

Anto McC wrote: »

That breeze you felt though your hair a few minutes ago, was my post going straight over your head.

Try to be as clever as you want, you've been found out kid.

The nearest team to all three of the people I mentioned is Spurs, they do support their local team, in one case the bloke has been doing it for 40 years. Have you missed my point perhaps?

What of the Hull fans who are enjoying the relative success in the top flight for the first time? Should they suffer so you can get you kicks?

The arrogance of the LOI militants really is amazing at times.

Anto McC

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

So all 3 are supporting thier local team? Where did i say i'd a problem with that son?

therecklessone

Anto McC wrote: »

So all 3 are supporting thier local team? Where did i say i'd a problem with that son?

Let me recap for you.

You'd like this superleague to go ahead because it might piss off a few Irish people who support an English team.

If that happened a great many people who do support their local clubs, all across Europe, would be affected.

For you to get your kicks, you want hundreds of thousands of people to suffer.

Follow the logic of your own argument. Son.

Anto McC

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

I've taken it to PM's. This is doing the thread no favours.

SectionF

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

eirebhoy wrote: »

As long as it includes Celtic it's a definite yes for me.

Celtic, or Rangers, wouldn't get within an ass's roar of it. It's as likely to include Bohs.

stovelid

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

eirebhoy wrote: »

Any links to this proposal?

Your faith in the Old Firm's relevance outside of Scotland and Ireland is touching.

You are mistaking large crowds/parochial Irish/Scottish obsession with global popularity. The clubs that would comprise a super-league would be the global names that are so self-evident that we don't have to list them here.

bigstar

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

why would this be a good idea? there are only a maximum of 4 clubs per domestic league in the CL that leaves something in the region of 15/16 clubs not in the CL, not to mention the other 72 clubs in england and how many in the rest of europe. FFS this would not be good for football. a few clubs benefiting to fcuk the rest over.

but think about this, if villa, spurs, everton, city overtook the french, dutch and some german, east european teams etc in the uefa coefficients/some other measure of clubs.

when and who decides what teams should be in this league.

if play offs and other entry requirements mean the Euro SL is english heavy or catastrophe of catastrophe's is full of mostly italian or spanish clubs, what then? do the powers that be reshuffle the pack, only so many clubs from each country, but surely thats not in the interest of 'entertainment' and is bad for TV revenue.

and seeing as this is all about money you can be sure this would turn into a super league of the few wealthy clubs from the few wealthy leagues.

this would strangle football, remove support from smaller clubs and eventually kill the domestic leagues

great post by therecklessone a few pages back

_blank_

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

I also heard somewhere recently that The Championship is the Sixth richest league in Europe :eek:

LuckyLloyd

Don't care

Des wrote: »

I also heard somewhere recently that The Championship is the Sixth richest league in Europe :eek:

England
Spain
Italy
Germany
France
Championship
The rest

apparently.

bigstar

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

so does that mean wolves might get to play off for this SL

eirebhoy

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

SectionF wrote: »

Celtic, or Rangers, wouldn't get within an ass's roar of it. It's as likely to include Bohs.

stovelid wrote: »

Your faith in the Old Firm's relevance outside of Scotland and Ireland is touching.

You are mistaking large crowds/parochial Irish/Scottish obsession with global popularity. The clubs that would comprise a super-league would be the global names that are so self-evident that we don't have to list them here.

Celtic were regularly in the top 20 clubs for world turnover. Celtic, Marseille and Lyon the only clubs in the list for 2008 outside of the big 4 leagues. That was with a whopping £2m in TV revenue compared to the £30m Derby earned. I doubt we'll see Celtic on the list again now though until they move out of Scotland.

Rangers were one of the 17 founding members of the European Club Association, which replaced the G14.

Clubs playing in a US pre-season tour in 2003:
AC Milan | Boca Juniors | Club America | Barcelona | Glasgow Celtic | Juventus | Manchester United

and the same tournament in 2004:
AC Milan | AS Roma | Bayern Munich | Chelsea | FC Porto | Galatasaray | Glasgow Celtic | Liverpool | Manchester United

Bohs would fit right in there alright...


Celtic aren't as big a name worldwide as a lot of those mentioned above but that's because of the league they play in. Ask Chelsea how quickly you can grow the brand. The suits within football see Celtic as a big club and Celtic are desperate to get out of Scotland. One thing I think is certain. If a European league ever gets the go ahead, Celtic won't be playing in the SPL any longer.

SectionF

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

eirebhoy wrote: »

The suits within football see Celtic as a big club and Celtic are desperate to get out of Scotland. One thing I think is certain. If a European league ever gets the go ahead, Celtic won't be playing in the SPL any longer.

Says it all.

If I were a Celtic supporter I would fight tooth and nail for it to be kept in Scotland, because that is where the club belongs.

You're big on specifics concerning US pre-season tours. Let's look at it this way: if a ESL were to be put in place, what clubs would be in it alongside yours, and, conversely, what major names do you imagine the Celtic brand would force out?

pablomakaveli

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

Celtic only look like a great club as they are playing mediocore teams week in week out. The only team that can really challenge them is Rangers thus both these clubs win most of the silverware in Scotland every season which makes them seem more impressive than they are. However in Europe they are made look ordinary by stronger teams.
Celtic are basically an ok club who thinks its a great club.

If they did enter a European Superleague they'd be shown up pretty quickly.

eirebhoy

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

For an ok club playing in a rubbish league, earning next to nothing in TV revenue, how were they were in the top 20 of the money league for so long? That's just income into the club. There's not many clubs in the world that could earn that while playing in the SPL.

They're an ok team but far from an ok club. The only reason your Arsenal and Chelsea's are a bigger club atm is because of the league they play in imo.

You're thinking of teams and not clubs. Celtic will never again be a great team while playing in Scotland but there's big potential if they get out.

Johnny Utah

Don't care

I can't believe people are so surprised about this- it's been on the cards for years. As it is at present, the Champions League is dominated by English and Spanish clubs. The Quarter Finals this year will most likely be contested by both English and Spanish clubs, with the exception of Bayern and maybe Inter. There's also a real possibility that we could have an all-English Champions League Final again, as we did last year. People should think about that for a second- because the reality is we already have a European Superleague, and it's called the Premiership. The EPL has so much power at this stage that there's no real competition from Italy, Germany, or Holland anymore, which is a real shame because it's also coincided with the demise of former great clubs , like Ajax, AC Milan for example.

It's gone beyond a farce at this stage tbh, when megarich investors buy a club like City and bring in any player in the world that catches their fancy. On the table below, it shows that ten of the top 25-richest clubs in world football are located in England. If this trend continues, it's only a matter of time before the entire top 20 richest clubs all reside in England. This is a real possibility, and effectively the Premier League would at some point become stronger than the Champions League itslef. What then- Watford buying the likes of Kaka and Messi.

With that in mind, perhaps a European Super League(s) might be a good idea, as it will allow a much wider power base to be shared throughout Europe, rather than the current model which has a concentration of power in the English and Spanish leagues. Anyone agree?

SectionF wrote: »

Celtic, or Rangers, wouldn't get within an ass's roar of it. It's as likely to include Bohs.

LOL, Celtic are regularly in the top 20 list of the world's richest football clubs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richest_football_clubs



It's quite likely that Celtic/Rangers would get into a European Super League, or even a division below it, if it ever happened.

stovelid

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

Johnny Utah wrote: »

LOL, Celtic are regularly in the top 20 list of the world's richest football clubs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richest_football_clubs
.

By this reasoning, Schalke, Bremen, Hamburg, Newcastle, and Spurs would also get into a super league as they are richer than Celtic.

Out of that rich list, the only definite shoo-ins I see are United, Madrid, Arsenal, Liverpool, Valenica, Munich, Milan, Barca, Juve, and Inter.

You would probably have a situation where teams like Benfica/Porto, Ajax and Marseille/Lyon would get the nod instead of Celtic, because Portugal, France and Holland are global football names, despite the relative poverty of the leagues.

Just because the mega teams tend to be the richest doesn't mean that the yardstick is money. The clubs that would be wooed for a super-league are the ones most likely to maximise TV income based on global popularity.

Face it: the Old Firm is not a big noise outside of Scotland, Ireland and England.

SectionF

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

Johnny Utah wrote: »

It's quite likely that Celtic/Rangers would get into a European Super League, or even a division below it, if it ever happened.

Oh, I see. We're popping in an extra division now, just for Celtic. That certainly would change the picture for quite a lot of clubs, but I haven't seen it mentioned before.

Show me a ranking of teams in terms of current on-the-field performance that puts the Bhoys up there, and I'll happily change my opinion that Celtic aren't strong enough for the ESL.

Johnny Utah

Don't care

stovelid wrote: »

By this reasoning, Schalke, Bremen, Hamburg, Newcastle, and Spurs would also get into a super league as they are richer than Celtic.

Out of that rich list, the only definite shoo-ins I see are United, Madrid, Arsenal, Liverpool, Valenica, Munich, Milan, Barca, Juve, and Inter.

You would probably have a situation where teams like Benfica/Porto, Ajax and Marseille/Lyon would get the nod instead of Celtic, because Portugal, France and Holland are global football names, despite the relative poverty of the leagues.

Just because the mega teams tend to be the richest doesn't mean that the yardstick is money. The clubs that would be wooed for a super-league are the ones most likely to maximise TV income based on global popularity.

Face it: the Old Firm is not a big noise outside of Scotland, Ireland and England.

Valencia are is serious financial trouble. Aside from that, you have to accept that football is a business. How did United, Barca, Chelsea etc get to be the biggest in the world, with the best teams- through business, simple as that. It's quite conceivable that Man City could join them in the next decade. Face it, the richest clubs have the most power (I don't like it, but hey tha's the way it is). The problem at the moment is that the EPL has so much power that they wouldn't really want to change anything. The top 4 in England gain huge revenue from the EPL itself, and then Europe is dominated by Spanish/English clubs. Think about it, the top 4 know that there's not going to be much competition from the German/Italian/Dutch clubs in Europe. These leagues, and even clubs from Eastern Europe (Steaua eg.) used to produce great teams that could win the European Cup, and now they only have a slim chance at best when they compete in Europe- I wouldn't say they're too happy about that. Even the bigger Italian clubs can't fill their stadiums for Serie A matches. The top 4 in the EPL on the other hand, are generating huge revenue in their own league, filling their stadium every week, and (from what I can see) all 4 clubs are guaranteed to reach the quarter finals of the Champions League for the foreseeable future (more money).

Do you think that the current situation where English clubs have much more money and power is acceptable?

The EPL is becoming a farce at this stage. Look at Chelsea, for example. They were bought by a billionaire, brought in a great manager and some of the best players in the world, and instantly have success in Europe. What had Chelsea achieved in the fifty years previously- not much?

SectionF wrote: »

Oh, I see. We're popping in an extra division now, just for Celtic. That certainly would change the picture for quite a lot of clubs, but I haven't seen it mentioned before.

Show me a ranking of teams in terms of current on-the-field performance that puts the Bhoys up there, and I'll happily change my opinion that Celtic aren't strong enough for the ESL.

No, more likely to have at least 3 or 4 leagues to have all the best teams in Europe, and in order to have a proper promotion/relegation system. Obviously, Celtic wouldn't start off with the best, as they don't have a team to compete at the moment. However, in the long-term I have no doubt that they would be up there with the biggest clubs. The problem for the OLd Firm clubs at the moment is that they are both huge clubs, with mediocre teams, playing in a poxy league. If you put any of the other big European teams in the Scottish league, they still wouldn't fare much better.


As a poster above said, the long established tradition of a club is more important than how a team is currently performing. In the long-term, these are the clubs that will be established in the European Super League.



Do you honestly believe that the current situation is better? English and Spanish clubs dominating Europe. Sure half the EPL wouldn't look out of place in the last 16 of the Champions League. Do you honestly think it's acceptable that clubs like Everton, Villa, City etc are currently in a much stronger position than former greats such as Ajax for example?

SectionF

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Do you think that the current situation where English clubs have much more money and power is acceptable?

The EPL is becoming a farce at this stage. Look at Chelsea, for example. They were bought by a billionaire, brought in a great manager and some of the best players in the world, and instantly have success in Europe. What had Chelsea achieved in the fifty years previously- not much?

I agree that the EPL is a farce, in which success at the top is determined by freakish wealth and access to credit. But the ESL as envisaged probably is an EPL for Europe. If the megaclubs (including Celtic, or not), get their way, it's going to be precisely the same, but with the same dynamic intensified and the game even more rootless and more remote from ordinary supporters. Football needs a shake-up, but not one that cements in and amplifies the fundamental flaws in the EPL.
Even in this thread, we see where merely money-driven logic leads, with the Old Firm, so renowned for their tribal loyalties, trying insanely to get out of Scotland.

Bounty Hunter

Don't care

Manchester United, Real Madrid, Arsenal, Liverpool, Munich, A.C Milan, Barcalona, Juventus, Inter Milan, Porto, Celtic, Lyon, Ajax/PSV, Russian champions, 1 more spanish team (Athletico?), 1 more german team (Hamburg(?), 1 Scandanavian/Irish/Welsh qualifier (Rosenburg?), 1 Easertn European qualifier (Shaktar?), one from Greece/Turkey (galatasaray?) one other qualifier from the rest of europe (Standard Liege?).



it would have to be treated as a european league where all the national leagues have a chance of filtering up into it through promotion and as is now with the CL certain countries get more spots NOT a league of the top 20 richest teams.

im sure ive made some glaring omissions from that list of teams but its just rough work.

eirebhoy

No: It will favour super-rich elite clubs at the expense of domestic leagues

stovelid wrote: »

By this reasoning, Schalke, Bremen, Hamburg, Newcastle, and Spurs would also get into a super league as they are richer than Celtic.

Those teams play in a big league. Celtic are playing in the SPL. There's only a handful of teams in the world that could would make the top 20 rich list while playing in the SPL imo which says a lot about the size of Celtic.

SectionF wrote: »

Show me a ranking of teams in terms of current on-the-field performance that puts the Bhoys up there, and I'll happily change my opinion that Celtic aren't strong enough for the ESL.

I clearly said Celtic are nowhere near that standard but that is purely because they're playing in the SPL.

If we're talking about big clubs then Celtic are in the top 20 or thereabouts. I don't see any other reason why they would be making the top 20 rich list while playing in the SPL. Can you?

stovelid

Maybe: If will need to be structured to ensure fairness and foster competition

eirebhoy wrote: »

Those teams play in a big league. Celtic are playing in the SPL. There's only a handful of teams in the world that could would make the top 20 rich list while playing in the SPL imo which says a lot about the size of Celtic.

It's true. They're a wealthy club with a huge local fan base with tradition and history. But in the context of a super league, I just don't see a) Celtic being good enough at the moment b) Celtic being a global TV draw c) Scotland's status as a football nation being high enough to get a lower-tier team in, like you may see with the likes of Holland, France and Portugal.