clubs attitudes to the UEFA cup!

ditpoker

:mad:

spurs... villa... all that work to qualify for the uefa cup... and then throwing it away, because of other priorities. Whats the point in putting such emphasis on trying to get into europe, aiming for uefa cup places if champions league is beyond them, getting into europe, and then... fielding a youth team in the last 32. i'm a spurs fan and am seriously disillusioned by the attitude clubs take toward uefa cup. I get that spurs have the carling cup and league survival on their plate, and that villa are targeting champions league. but playing a reserve team is disrespectful to the fans, imo. starting to see it creep into FA cup too.

Take for example, Fulham tonight fielded a weakened side against swansea, resting players as they are prioritizing the premiership, so they potentially sacrifice the premiership in an attempt to qualify for europe, so then they qualify for europe, and then they sacrifice europe for the league... etc etc etc...

i HATE the bastardization of cup football. i dont know what the solution is... but the FA should reprimand teams like spurs and villa for poorly representing their nation in european competition. i'm a spurs fan and do not agree with what my team are doing. I appreciate there are mitigating circumstances to some degree, but not to the extent that they had to do what they did in the ukraine, or to the extent villa are doing this week. perhaps the fa should be more flexible in their fixture design, i dunno. :mad:

/rant

LuckyLloyd

Right ****ing on. Jeff, rarely have I agreed in full with a post of yours - but I guess this one proves that there is a first time for everything!!

The real tragedy of these trains of thought is that in trying to focus on the long term picture (financial stability of PL survival or CL qualification), these clubs are denying themselves the opportunity of creating a long - term memory for their fanbase. And in the case of Villa in particular, the chances of going all the way to the final of this thing is genuine. What would their fans prefer:

- A trip to the UEFA Cup final at the end of a memorable European run;
- the potential to do an Everton - by finishing fourth in the PL and exiting in the 3rd qualifying round of the CL next August following a bad draw that comes from being unseeded;

?

I won't forget Liverpool's UEFA cup run of 2001. Some great nights to remember from that campaign.

Guy:Incognito

Spurs werent expecting to be fighting relegation so it's a bit different to how it would have been under normal circumstances.

It'd be a bit stupid to prioritise the UEFA cup that could be lost on one bad 90 minutes.They really cant risk going down.

Zonda999

Uefa are trying to improve it. Their changing its format next year, and renaming it the Europa League. However it'll never command as much respect as the Champions League IMO. i hope Meelan win it this year because then maybe someone will actually notice!

Stekelly wrote: »

Spurs werent expecting to be fighting relegation so it's a bit different to how it would have been under normal circumstances.

It'd be a bit stupid to prioritise the UEFA cup that could be lost on one bad 90 minutes.They really cant risk going down.

Well they can relax in the certainty they'll be in Europe next season thanks to the Carling Cup and United already in the Champions League

therecklessone

What really sickens me is that I've been receiving e-mails from Spurs' ticket office this last week and a bit trying to hype up the Uefa games while at the same time Redknapp is describing the 2nd leg as a "nuisance game"

Martin Jol was rightly reprimanded for considering resting Lennon and Berbatov in the FA Cup away to Chelsea a few years ago, so why has Redknapp got a pass on this?

I'd be willing to accept it if we had a long list of walking wounded, but that clearly isn't the case...we've a number of players cup-tied for last Thursday and this, who could make an appearance in the Hull game plus the Carling final. Plus we'd no game last weekend, they'd plenty of time for r&r.

It's bullsh1t, and it's disrespectful to the fans who pay good bloody money to travel.

jesus_thats_gre

I think it is funny that these teams have not proved themselves in the UEFA cup nor garnered genuine experience from it yet have aspirations to compete in the CL.

eZe^

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The real tragedy of these trains of thought is that in trying to focus on the long term picture (financial stability of PL survival or CL qualification), these clubs are denying themselves the opportunity of creating a long - term memory for their fanbase.

Good point, especially when you consider in the long term teams like Villa/ Spurs want to eventually become regular CL qualifiers, and to start a CL legacy you should be at least showing respect to the other competition, look at Porto for example. Small enough club, Jose Mourinho takes over, wins them a Uefa cup trophy and then goes on to win the CL, winning trophies breeds a winning mentality into your team.

Seville are another good example, they were very much a second rate team 10 years ago, but slowly after building a good team, they concentrate on winning the Uefa cup, they end up retaining it, and winning a whole host of other trophies in a 2 season spell. It comes back to fact that winning trophies breeds a winning mentality. I can guarantee that if Villa or Spurs won the Uefa cup this year it would be a bigger step in their clubs history to becoming a bigger European powerhouse than if they basically drop out by default to concentrate on the domestic league standings.

It's also an indication of how prestige no longer plays an important role in clubs outlooks, it's more financial security. Look at the teams who have all competed in the Uefa Cup this season, A.C Milan, Valencia, Sevilla, PSG, Napoli, Benfica, Deportivo, Borussia Dortmund and Olympiacos. All those clubs are no push overs and have European pedigree, it's a real shame that football clubs aren't taking this cup seriously anymore, and I think in the end football as a sport will suffer as a result of this kind of mentality.

Xavi6 has always said he would love to see his club winning a trophy if it meant being relegated domestically, because he has been through thick and thin with his club anyway, so he knows they'll be back up eventually, and the joy that winning a prestigious trophy would be worth it in the end.

ArmaniJeanss

Zonda999 wrote: »

Spurs relax in the certainty they'll be in Europe next season thanks to the Carling Cup and United already in the Champions League

Not true, runners-up in the Carling Cup havn't been given a place in Europe for about the last 12 seasons. Otherwise Wigan would have been in Euope in 2006.
The Uefa Cup place reverts back to the league.

invincibleirish

I would agree in principle but its mitigating circumstances innit?

Villa do not have the squad Spurs had a few years ago when they were going for 4th. MON conserved resources in the group stages and Villa were kept fresh after they ended, The filthy lucre involved means the PL & CL wins out above all else.

This is how it is. Its why Spurs spend fortunes trying to get there and Pool can buy a Torres and a Keane. The CL wins above all else right?

Eirebear

its a rubbish torunament anyway....

Bounty Hunter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What would their fans prefer:

- A trip to the UEFA Cup final at the end of a memorable European run;
- the potential to do an Everton - by finishing fourth in the PL and exiting in the 3rd qualifying round of the CL next August following a bad draw that comes from being unseeded;

?

Id like to think most villa fans would be optimistic and see and option C myself which would be qualify for the competition and invest (which we will do anyway) on more players, players of a CL standard so as to stay in the CL next year hopefully through our league campaign. I dont car if its the CL, Uefa/Europa, The FA cup or the Carling Cup for me cup games are a bonus and the priority is the league, and I would have the same inclination if i supported any team except maybe if a teams season was essentially over already but they were still in a cup.

As far as Spurs its kinda hard to prioritise a European game on a thirsday when youve a cup final that weekend and are trying to stave off relegation imo

btw I think the majority of Villa fans dont agree with the squad selected but of course can see the benefits of having our stars fresh for the league.

Neil3030

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What would their fans prefer:

- A trip to the UEFA Cup final at the end of a memorable European run;
- the potential to do an Everton - by finishing fourth in the PL and exiting in the 3rd qualifying round of the CL next August following a bad draw that comes from being unseeded;

Way to compare 'best case hypothetical scenario' with 'worst case hypothetical scenario' there.

I could just as easily offer:

- Losing in the next round to a decent team outplaying you and having 4 first team players injured
or
- Finishing 3rd, bypassing the qualifying rounds, pocketing a tidy sum to spend on players and increasing the prestige of the club to attract a better calibre.

Whats the point in putting such emphasis on trying to get into europe, aiming for uefa cup places if champions league is beyond them, getting into europe, and then... fielding a youth team in the last 32............. I get that spurs have the carling cup and league survival on their plate, and that villa are targeting champions league.

Asked and answered IMO.

One Cold Hand

It's a tough one.
The problem for Villa is we simply don't have the squad to compete in multiple competitions. Take defence for example. Laursen is injured. So is Bouma. We have no cover for Bouma, so Young is moved out of position from the right to the left. Then we have no right back, so Carlos Cuellar, a CB is played there. That leave Curtis Davies and 4th choice, and the frankly rubbish Zat Knight at the centre. On top that Davies has ongoing shoulder problems and needs a break.
That's just defence. Carew and Heskey have both been injured recently. Gabby badly needs a break. He's played every minute of every league game this season, bar about 11 mins.

I guess I'm just making the point that we can't realisitically compete in the UEFA Cup and for a CL spot. So MON has to decide which it is. We'd all love to win the UEFA Cup, but at this moment in time I think CL qualification is more likely, so it's gotta be that. Plus it's presumably a money thing.
I think in fairness to MON he gave the first leg at Villa Park a good bash. I think if we'd won it 2-0, or had something to defend going to Moscow, we might have seen a different approach to this game. As it is it'd be a tough ask to go away and beat them. We can't risk losing to Stoke on Sunday having been beaten by Chelsea last weekend.

I agree with MON's decision.


/edit: I think a good idea might be to offer the two finalists in the UEFA Cup spots in the qualifiying rounds of next years CL. Might be an incentive for teams to stay in the competition.

Neil3030

One Cold Hand wrote: »

/edit: I think a good idea might be to offer the two finalists in the UEFA Cup spots in the qualifiying rounds of next years CL. Might be an incentive for teams to stay in the competition.

That'd be a really good idea imo.

newballsplease

ive put my house on cska to beat villa tomorrow!!

CHD

Don't know how anyone could blame Villa. They have a oppurtunity to win CL football which with all the perks will be a stepping stone to fighting for titles. Villa are the only team though that could justify it.

One Cold Hand

CHD wrote: »

Don't know how anyone could blame Villa. They have a oppurtunity to win CL football which with all the perks will be a stepping stone to fighting for titles. Villa are the only team though that could justify it.

I can kind of see where Spurs are coming from also. They're still quite close to the relegation zone. I've no doubt they'll stay up, they have more than enough talent in their squad, but it's probably not worth the risk.

eagle eye

The best managers are realistic and ruthless in the pursuit of their goals.

I rate Martin O'Neill as one of the best managers in the game. His decisions regarding the Uefa Cup are a reminder of the times in football where money plays a huge role in the big decisions and the aims of a club.

The Uefa Cup is just another cup, imo the FA Cup is a bigger trophy for any English club now. Its been seriously devalued ever since the Champion's League became more than just a cup between the Champions of European countries. The financial reward for gaining a place in the Champion's League is far superior to the money available to a club who win the Uefa Cup. In all fairness if Martin O'Neill at this stage of the season decided to go for the Uefa Cup and even if he won and lost out on a CL spot in the process I think everbody here would be saying how stupid a decision it was.

Similarly at Tottenham Harry Redknapp is battling against relegation. His team are in the Carling Cup final, and he does not need any more games than is necessary if he is to give his team the best chance at avoiding relegation. If Spurs were to have a successful run in the Uefa Cup and ended up being relegated as a result of that I am certain that we would be hearing how Redknapp's stupidity in going for the Uefa Cup was the key in their dropping to the Championship.

You can also look at Blackburn, we were in the FA Cup replay last night away to Coventry and Big Sam chose to make eleven changes from the team that faced Manchester United at the weekend and gave them one hell of a fright. We played our second team last night. We are in a similar situation to Spurs. I've been on the Blackburn forum that I frequent and there are guys up in arms, moaning that we cannot win anything this season. We had to face the reality of the situation, our reward for putting out a first team and possibly beating Coventry was facing Chelsea in the next round. Then there is the possible cost of putting our your best players against a Championship side who are not in the promotion picture. We could end up with injuries which is someithng we cannot afford right now, we could end up getting beaten anyways and then you have confidence issues in the squad. We could end up winning and having to play our first team against Chelsea and possibly losing a crucial game as a direct result through players being worn out. Big Sam made the sensible decision and played the reserves and he would have played them again if we had got though.

I just named three pretty successful PL managers and all have decided to forego the cups. A ruthless approach with money being the motivator has decided the fate of those three clubs in cup competitions. At the end of the day you have to make ends meet.

Highsider

Problem is if the likes of Spurs win the UEFA cup and get relegated they will end up as the next Leeds. At the moment due to TV money the premier league is the be all and end all for the smaller to moderate teams in the league. This will all hopefully change soon enough due to the implosion on the financial side of things in football.

KevIRL

ditpoker's rant makes it onto the TV

Dave!

KevIRL wrote: »

ditpoker's rant makes it onto the TV

Yoofa cup, Fahh cup

jesus_thats_gre

What happens next season if say Villa do quality for the CL but fail to maintain or build on the momentum of this season and struggle to maintain their position in the top 4? Will they allow themselves to be knocked out in the group stage in order to secure qualification for the following season?

I know it is a hypothetical situation but using the some of the logic posted here, it seems like some would argue that it is the right thing to do?

eagle eye

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

What happens next season if say Villa do quality for the CL but fail to maintain or build on the momentum of this season and struggle to maintain their position in the top 4? Will they allow themselves to be knocked out in the group stage in order to secure qualification for the following season?

I know it is a hypothetical situation but using the some of the logic posted here, it seems like some would argue that it is the right thing to do?

When you look at the big four over the last few seasons they have big panels and can get by when somebody gets injured, they can put out second teams that have strength in them in some games.

Aston Villa don't have that luxury, they have one of the smallest squads in the PL. Next year if they do qualify for the CL this year, they will be improving their squad and adding more depth to it, they will have the big money from the CL and will be able to attract the better players.
I don't think you will see them being in that sort of a position as their squad should be big enough to allow them rest a couple of players without a drastic drop in the performance on the pitch. So I don't believe that you will see them being forced to do that next season.
I'd say though that if it meant qualifying for the next years CL or going all out this season, I think the latter is the more sensible option.

Chucky the tree

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

What happens next season if say Villa do quality for the CL but fail to maintain or build on the momentum of this season and struggle to maintain their position in the top 4? Will they allow themselves to be knocked out in the group stage in order to secure qualification for the following season?

I know it is a hypothetical situation but using the some of the logic posted here, it seems like some would argue that it is the right thing to do?

The group stages are finished by christmas though so it's a different scenario. I cant realy fault either team for bothering with the comp.

Ask either sets of fans which they'd prefer
Villa: Winning the Uefa cup or finishing top 4?
Spurs: Winning the UEFA cup relegation?

x in the city

Aston Villa should be ashamed, who do they think they are. ?, concentrating on the CL.. lol.

I hope they don't even qualify for the CL, which they will not anyway. Stoke will probably be fired up by their arrogance and win...:rolleyes:

Ridiculous tbh

Bounty Hunter

x in the city wrote: »

Aston Villa should be ashamed, who do they think they are. ?, concentrating on the CL.. lol.

I hope they don't even qualify for the CL, which they will not anyway. Stoke will probably be fired up by their arrogance and win...:rolleyes:

Ridiculous tbh

i cant work out if your being sarcastic or wether i should write a scathing reply disagreeing with you. incase you are being someway non-sacrcastic ill just say this

"Aston Villa Should be ashamed" - They arent and neither are the fans
"Who do they think they are?" - the 4th best team in england so far this year
"Concentrating on CL" - yup and at the moment on course to get it
"lol" - less of the condecending tone you

"I hope they dont even qualify for the CL" - Are we bitter about something? i dont wish ill on any side just good fortune on my own team personally.
"Which they will not anyway" - Now he thinks he knows the future, btw bookies disagree with you atm
"Stoke will probably be fired up by their arrogance" - is it not almost the opposite of arrogance that villa rested our best players before we play them because of the importance weve placed on league fixtures

pickarooney

If UEFA are serious about reviving the UEFA cup, they should start by reallocating a wodge of the cash on offer for the Champions League to the competition. The CL is dying as a source of entertainment it is, with the same teams appearing over and over and the final inevitably ending up as an awful match. I would prefer if all the money for a CL win went to the winning side and a decent cash prize were on offer for the victorious UEFA cup side. When you think about it, winning a trophy, even the UEFA or Carling Cup should always be considered more of an achievement than coming second in the CL or 4th in the league. If you give clubs the incentive to go and win the UEFA, and a nice pot of cash, rather than reach the knockout stages of the CL, I'm quite sure priorities would change, to the benefit of the spectator.

LuckyLloyd

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The group stages are finished by christmas though so it's a different scenario. I cant realy fault either team for bothering with the comp.

Ask either sets of fans which they'd prefer
Villa: Winning the Uefa cup or finishing top 4?
Spurs: Winning the UEFA cup relegation?

The point is that the fans will remember a UEFA cup final run an awful lot quicker than 4th place in the league in 10 years time.

weemcd

Anyone any idea how much CL qualification is worth?

I seem to remember in Liverpool's qualifying campaign this year they estimated this at around 20mil? Id say it probably goes up every year as well as the competition grows.

Also then any idea how much winning the UEFA Cup is worth? Higher profile, shirt sales, CL qualification also?

jesus_thats_gre

I think winning the UEFA Cup is worth a similar amount to progressing from the group stages of the CL. I remember at the time of Liverpool winning it that there was a bit deal made about not competing in the CL at the beginning of that season but that the UEFA Cup more than made up for it.

Incidently, I completely agree that the winners of the UEFA Cup should be given a CL spot. Not sure about both finalists but certainly the winners.

therecklessone

weemcd wrote: »

Anyone any idea how much CL qualification is worth?

I seem to remember in Liverpool's qualifying campaign this year they estimated this at around 20mil? Id say it probably goes up every year as well as the competition grows.

Also then any idea how much winning the UEFA Cup is worth? Higher profile, shirt sales, CL qualification also?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2313276/Top-four-cash-in-on-Champions-League.html

Arsenal earned £12m more from the CL than Spurs did from the Uefa Cup the year after we lost out on 4th place cos of a dodgy lasagne. Arsenal lost in the CL last 16, Spurs in the last 8 of the Uefa Cup. IIRC, the 4th placed English side is guaranteed a minimum of £12m if they reach the group stages of the CL.

Those figures don't include gate receipts or merchandise sales.

If they went all the way to the final of the Uefa Cup this season they would probably make in excess of £10m from all sources, and it is a gamble to take that they'll make it out of the 3rd qualifying round of next season's CL (that's if they finish 4th or better ) but they'll argue that they have a much better chance of doing that if they don't have to contend with further games in Europe this season. I don't think there's any coincidence in Spurs having their best shot at 4th place the year we were knocked out of both domestic cups at the first time of asking, and we had no European football that season.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Incidently, I completely agree that the winners of the UEFA Cup should be given a CL spot. Not sure about both finalists but certainly the winners.

Not sure I'm in favour of that. I don't like the number of English sides that get to compete in the CL, but at least that is decided on merit. The secondary competition needs to be properly funded, I'd insist that TV companies only be allocated CL coverage rights if they agree to broadcast the Europa League (for a suitable fee of course) as well, or I'd liek to see the CL subsidise the prize fund for the Europa.

weemcd

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/7916585.stm

Villa fans offered thank-you meal


Aston Villa manager Martin O'Neill has invited fans to dinner

Aston Villa manager Martin O'Neill has offered to host a dinner for fans who flew to Russia and saw an understrength side knocked out of the Uefa Cup.
Fans who had followed the West Midlands team's Uefa Cup run were angered when O'Neill rested eight first-choice stars in the 2-0 defeat at CSKA Moscow.
O'Neill made the offer to about 300 passengers during the flight home from Moscow on Friday.
He said he stood by his choice but the meal was a way of thanking the fans.
'Takes bottle'

The dinner is due to be held at the club's Holte Suite on a date yet to be decided.

It is seen by some as an apology for leaving regular first team players Gareth Barry, Brad Friedel, Emile Heskey, James Milner, Ashley Young, Gabriel Agbonlahor, Carlos Cuellar and Stiliyan Petrov behind in England when the squad flew out to Moscow.

Thursday's match was the third game in six days for Aston Villa, who are battling for a place in the Premier League's top four - which would bring with it a place in next season's Uefa Champions League.
One of the supporters who was on the plane said: "Its a nice touch to come and say that and softens the blow of the trip. It takes a lot of bottle to do that and shows what type of manager he is."

Third_Echelon

I posted this on an Everton forum that I frequent, and the subject was the same...

=============================

The UEFA cup is a great stepping stone to getting into the champions league and not making ourselves look foolish in the long term...

A few seasons in the UEFA cup to get our European tactics and experience up before getting into the champions league is the best way of doing it... I for one don’t want to see Everton get twatted by someone like Olympiakos in the group stage of the champions league (if we ever get there that is)... That would be quite embarrassing...

Its a training ground for inexperienced clubs with regards to Europe (and to get our UEFA co-efficient up so we don't get drawn against bigger clubs in qualifying rounds etc). I would love to see Everton win it (UEFA cup). That is for sure... but yes the financial side of things isn’t balanced, so you can see why some teams whose priorities change (e.g. the spot Villa find themselves in), makes it a less of a blow to fans if they field a weakened side and bow out for the chance of securing a champions league spot. They would be mad to jeopardise that chance!

For me anyway, the group stages of the champions league is boring and quite predictable. I can’t remember a decent game until you get to the knock-out section.

In my honest opinion, the UEFA cup games I’ve seen this seasons have been a lot better than the group stages of the champions league...

Give me Sampadoria vs Hertha Berlin over Chelsea vs some romanian side any day... I know which one will be the better game to watch.

So, lets treat the UEFA cup exactly the way it suits us at the time... For me anyway, I’d take league cup, fa cup or a uefa cup win over 4th spot... Slow and steady wins the race... just look at leeds...

=============================

on another note... I think Everton made about £250,000 from their UEFA cup run last season getting to the round before the quarter-finals... The disparity in monies between the CL and UEFA cup is ridiculous and I can definitely see how some clubs will sacrifice a UEFA cup for CL qualification

bigstar

i would absolutely love if city won the uefa cup, and i think id take it over fourth place if we had the choice. apart from the money, its winning something against qualifying for something. gimme the win.
also you cant argue it isnt disrespectful to the fans and the spirit of the game.