How long does it take for a plodder to get to Boston?

Running Bing

OK I figure its about time I started one of these logs to track my progress, for motivation and of course to get lots of free advice from all the knowledgeable folks on here;)


I started running last June with the intention of doing Dublin, ticking it off the to do list and then hanging up my Kayanos but of course I got bitten by the bug and now all I think about is running:rolleyes:


As you can probably guess from the title I'd love to someday run Boston, but my long term goal is to run a marathon in under three hours. Thats a very lofty goal given my current level of running but Im looking at it over the long term and reckon I can get there within 3-4 years.

At the moment my PR's are:

Marathon : 4:15 (Oct 08)
10k: 49:08 (December 08)
5k: 21:30 (1 Jan 09)

Obvious pattern there....Im a lot better at the shorter stuff! Thats why this year I have decided to focus on shorter stuff, nothing longer than 5k and with a view to running well in BHAA track events in August.

Im following Jack Daniels program for 1500/3000m. Completely new experience for me having never really done any speed work before but it looks like a good programme and I reckon it will play to my strengths and help me improve.

Short term Goals:

Mile: sub 6
5k: Sub 20
10k: sub 45

Medium term goals:

Mile: 5:19
5k: 18:28
10k: sub 40

I choose them because they are the equivalent time of a 3 hour marathon on McMillan (I know its not 100% accurate but its as good a target as any and if Im at that level it will give me the confidence to shoot for the sub 3).

Like I said Im a relative newbie so any comments, constructive criticism or advice is always welcome and I hope you enjoy reading;)

cfitz

Hope it goes well for you.

I always tell people here to concentrate on running shorter distances as a beginner so I'm delighted that I'll get to see how it works for you.

Running Bing

At the moment Im just doing the base building phase, so its nothing too interesting.

I started with three weeks of easy running with a total weekly mileage of 22 mpw. Last week I started adding 6 strides after my easy runs and a long run of 8 miles on Sunday to give a total weekly mileage of 28 mpw.

For the strides I gradually increase my speed for 10 seconds, run near flat out for a further 10 seconds and then finally gradually reduce my speed for another ten seconds.

I'll follow that this week and next and thats when the harder workouts begin.


At the moment though I feel very positive and looking forward to getting stuck into some faster stuff. Ive been running 6 days a week with no problems at all so thats a big thing for me considering I only trained four days a week for the marathon. I feel like I could run 7 days a week (Im a student with plenty of time on my hands;)) but I think its unnecessary and the rest day is more beneficial.

Running Bing

cfitz wrote: »

Hope it goes well for you.

I always tell people here to concentrate on running shorter distances as a beginner so I'm delighted that I'll get to see how it works for you.

Im a younger runner too cfitz (early 20's) so I reckon I have plenty of time to be running marathons later on;)

shels4ever

Babybing wrote: »

OK I figure its about time I started one of these logs to track my progress, for motivation and of course to get lots of free advice from all the knowledgeable folks on here;)


I started running last June with the intention of doing Dublin, ticking it off the to do list and then hanging up my Kayanos but of course I got bitten by the bug and now all I think about is running:rolleyes:


As you can probably guess from the title I'd love to someday run Boston, but my long term goal is to run a marathon in under three hours. Thats a very lofty goal given my current level of running but Im looking at it over the long term and reckon I can get there within 3-4 years.

At the moment my PR's are:

Marathon : 4:15 (Oct 08)
10k: 49:08 (December 08)
5k: 21:30 (1 Jan 09)

Obvious pattern there....Im a lot better at the shorter stuff! Thats why this year I have decided to focus on shorter stuff, nothing longer than 5k and with a view to running well in BHAA track events in August.

Im following Jack Daniels program for 1500/3000m. Completely new experience for me having never really done any speed work before but it looks like a good programme and I reckon it will play to my strengths and help me improve.

Short term Goals:

Mile: sub 6
5k: Sub 20
10k: sub 45

Medium term goals:

Mile: 5:19
5k: 18:28
10k: sub 40

I choose them because they are the equivalent time of a 3 hour marathon on McMillan (I know its not 100% accurate but its as good a target as any and if Im at that level it will give me the confidence to shoot for the sub 3).

Like I said Im a relative newbie so any comments, constructive criticism or advice is always welcome and I hope you enjoy reading;)

Great best of luck , your targets are very similar to mine for the shorted distances, Will be nice to see how the different programs work out..
But i've no plans for a sub 3 marathon.

Woddle

About time you started one of these babybing. Best of luck and I can see you doing quite well. You seem to have a very sensible approach and as cfitz said everyone should start with short stuff and speed. I wish I did, well kind of and I'll look forward to racing against you in the summer I can see it being alot closer than new years day

cfitz

Babybing wrote: »

At the moment though I feel very positive and looking forward to getting stuck into some faster stuff. Ive been running 6 days a week with no problems at all so thats a big thing for me considering I only trained four days a week for the marathon. I feel like I could run 7 days a week (Im a student with plenty of time on my hands;)) but I think its unnecessary and the rest day is more beneficial.

Yeah even when I'm running 9 times per week I still take one complete rest day. Some people take a day every 2 weeks or do cross-training or a jog on their rest day but I like to take the full day off. Breaks each week, and lets me relax and forget about running for a day.

I think that once you hit 5:19 for the mile you should look to find a club and start thinking about a coach. Jack Daniels is surely a great coach and I've even seen him respond to people on internet forums but I still I think an actual coach closer to home might be a safer bet

dna_leri

Babybing wrote: »

Im a younger runner too cfitz (early 20's) so I reckon I have plenty of time to be running marathons later on;)

I have not been a younger runner for a long time but I also have decided to concentrate on the shorter races before I start to slow down.

I did not realise that Daniels had a program for those distances - have you bought his book or are they published on the net?

Best of luck with your training, have you a target race in mind or a first one to measure your progress?

.

Running Bing

dna_leri wrote: »

I have not been a younger runner for a long time but I also have decided to concentrate on the shorter races before I start to slow down.

I did not realise that Daniels had a program for those distances - have you bought his book or are they published on the net?

Yeah in his book Daniels running formula he includes detailed programmes for 800m, 1500/3000, 5-15k, half and full marathon. He also includes a section on cross country training and outlines his training philosophy, what each workout does for you and how to plan a season.


Its really a great book imo and I could not recommend it highly enough. Well worth 15 quid.

Best of luck with your training, have you a target race in mind or a first one to measure your progress?

Im planning on running the Patricks day 5k just to see where Im at at the moment and Ill run in the BHAA Trinity track meet in May to set official times for the shorter distances. My main focus for the year will be the series of BHAA track events in August in Irishtown stadium.

I would've liked to have more chances to race on the track but I wouldnt be up to the standard to compete with club runners so the BHAA events are the only real chance Ill have.

After that Ill run a couple of 5k's here and there and I might get a 10k in at some stage just to see can I break 45.

About time you started one of these babybing. Best of luck and I can see you doing quite well. You seem to have a very sensible approach and as cfitz said everyone should start with short stuff and speed. I wish I did, well kind of and I'll look forward to racing against you in the summer I can see it being alot closer than new years day

Haha hope so. All I remember that day is the gun going and then me looking around thinking "where's woddle gone";)

Running Bing

One thing I have added in the last month or so is a core routine. I do the following circuitx2 three times a week:

Lungesx20
Tricep Dipsx10
Bicyclesx30
Squatsx20
Push-upsx15
Ab Crunchesx30
Supermansx10
Metronome-I hold for 15 seconds on each side.
Side Plank-Hold for 15 seconds on each side
Leg raisesx20


Maybe its just the placebo effect but I feel this has definitely made a difference. I feel I can hold my form better towards the end of runs and I am more in control of my form. My balance has also improved.

As the mileage builds up and time becomes tighter I can see it being a temptation to skip it but Im definitely going to try to stick with it. Im sure I have to be getting some benefit from it.

cfitz

Babybing wrote: »

One thing I have added in the last month or so is a core routine. I do the following circuitx2 three times a week:

Lungesx20
Tricep Dipsx10
Bicyclesx30
Squatsx20
Push-upsx15
Ab Crunchesx30
Supermansx10
Metronome-I hold for 15 seconds on each side.
Side Plank-Hold for 15 seconds on each side
Leg raisesx20


Maybe its just the placebo effect but I feel this has definitely made a difference. I feel I can hold my form better towards the end of runs and I am more in control of my form. My balance has also improved.

As the mileage builds up and time becomes tighter I can see it being a temptation to skip it but Im definitely going to try to stick with it. Im sure I have to be getting some benefit from it.

That's very similar to the circuit I do once a week. (I do a smaller set of exercises 5 days per week.) Some people do much tougher stuff and some do none at all. And I think Racing Flat thinks it's all a waste of time!

Running Bing

Stayed up until 6 last night to watch a boxing match (it was worth it;)) and I wanted to get my run in this morning and be ready for the Carling cup final so I was pretty tired and took it very very easy.

8 miles, 10 min/mile pace around Bushy park. First few miles were a struggle but it was a lovely day to be out.


Off to watch the match now.....COME ON YOU SPURS;)

Running Bing

Hmmmm getting a bit disillusioned with all this easy running. It seems Im settling into a pace that's well north of what I should be doing.


The dilemma I face is that I can run a 5k at 6:50 min/mile pace but my easy running takes place in and around 10 min/mile....the problem is if I run faster than that I feel like Im pushing it, my breathing gets heavier and its not exactly easy. I've thrown caution to the wind and stuck at my "subjectively" easy pace so hopefully it will reap benefits when I start to get a bit of fast running into the legs next week.


Im also running the patricks day 5k on Sunday week so it will be an interesting experiment to see how I go in that (ran 21:30 in January and have done nothing but base training since).

On a more positive note my core routine is continuing to go well. Its something I actually look forward to and I feel Im getting something out of it. I also feel Im at a good weight now so Im happy on that front.

Looking forward to my fast workout on Monday but they have decided to board up my local track for "improvements" so Ill be doing some hill repeats instead.:pac:

Running Bing

One thing I have changed drastically in the last couple of months is I have made a change from running exclusively on roads to running nearly all of my mileage on grass.

I feel this has been of huge benefit.....while running on roads I was constantly getting niggles...ITB, shins, knees but since I changed to grass I have not felt a blip.


Its something I would definitely recommend.

Woddle

Babybing wrote: »

Hmmmm getting a bit disillusioned with all this easy running. It seems Im settling into a pace that's well north of what I should be doing.


The dilemma I face is that I can run a 5k at 6:50 min/mile pace but my easy running takes place in and around 10 min/mile....the problem is if I run faster than that I feel like Im pushing it, my breathing gets heavier and its not exactly easy. :

Have you considered wearing a heart rate monitor once or twice a week to gauge your easy effort. 10 mins sounds a little slow but I don't know that much, I'm just basing it on what I was doing, easy pace would have been about 9 min miles and HR at 68% ish.

Also if you feel its working, stick with it

Running Bing

Woddle wrote: »

Have you considered wearing a heart rate monitor once or twice a week to gauge your easy effort. 10 mins sounds a little slow but I don't know that much, I'm just basing it on what I was doing, easy pace would have been about 9 min miles and HR at 68% ish.

Also if you feel its working, stick with it

10 mins is definitely slow woddle...especially when you consider the heart rates! 10 min is usually between 70-75%:eek: 9 mins is closer to 80%....now considering the recommended easy pace for somebody running a 5k in my time (based on Daniels, McMillan and smartcoach) is around 8:50 min/mile something seems off.

One possible explanation is that I have underestimated my max heart rate at 200 bpm. This is based on my max heart rate during a 5k + 5bpm so it could be off.

Still, like I said going by subjective feeling an easy conversational pace seems to be between 9:40-10 min/mile.


I also have full confidence that I could still run a 21:30 5k now but we'll see next Sunday. That race will shed a lot of light on where I am at the moment.

shels4ever

Babybing wrote: »

10 mins is definitely slow woddle...especially when you consider the heart rates! 10 min is usually between 70-75%:eek: 9 mins is closer to 80%....now considering the recommended easy pace for somebody running a 5k in my time (based on Daniels, McMillan and smartcoach) is around 8:50 min/mile something seems off.

One possible explanation is that I have underestimated my max heart rate at 200 bpm. This is based on my max heart rate during a 5k + 5bpm so it could be off.

Still, like I said going by subjective feeling an easy conversational pace seems to be between 9:40-10 min/mile.


I also have full confidence that I could still run a 21:30 5k now but we'll see next Sunday. That race will shed a lot of light on where I am at the moment.

Hi there,
Just going on your times you seem to be just a little faster then me, i'd be prob just under 22 for 5k.

I was running at 9:30 pace for easy runs for a while but have started to push it slightly over the past few week an easy 5 mile would now be arouns 8:40/50 pace.

Long runs are @ about 9:30 pace.

What pace are your tempo and long runs at? Also grass is a little slower then the road so this could be a factor.

Running Bing

shels4ever wrote: »

Hi there,
Just going on your times you seem to be just a little faster then me, i'd be prob just under 22 for 5k.

I was running at 9:30 pace for easy runs for a while but have started to push it slightly over the past few week an easy 5 mile would now be arouns 8:40/50 pace.

Long runs are @ about 9:30 pace.

What pace are your tempo and long runs at? Also grass is a little slower then the road so this could be a factor.

Well at the moment shels my long runs are'nt that long. My last two have been:

8 miles @ 10:03 min/mile (151 bpm)
8 miles @ 9:55 min/mile (153bpm)

Im not really doing tempo runs at the minute but my last one (in january) was 7:44 min/mile (175 bpm).

The grass could be a factor but I reckon I need to do a few more tests on my max heart rate.


Do you have any idea what sort of hr's your hitting on those runs Shels?

shels4ever

Babybing wrote: »

Well at the moment shels my long runs are'nt that long. My last two have been:

8 miles @ 10:03 min/mile (151 bpm)
8 miles @ 9:55 min/mile (153bpm)

Im not really doing tempo runs at the minute but my last one (in january) was 7:44 min/mile (175 bpm).

The grass could be a factor but I reckon I need to do a few more tests on my max heart rate.


Do you have any idea what sort of hr's your hitting on those runs Shels?

Hi there,
No I havent been using the HM yet but might put it on next week to see. I think one big factor for my easy run pace dropping was tempo running and speed work this has help me improve the leg turnover big time as my pace on my easy runs.

I wouldnt worry about the pace on long runs too much its about time in the legs but if you can try to get maybe one tempo session a week and you will see improvments .

Also do your run alone?

cfitz

Babybing wrote: »

Well at the moment shels my long runs are'nt that long. My last two have been:

8 miles @ 10:03 min/mile (151 bpm)
8 miles @ 9:55 min/mile (153bpm)

I think 80 minutes can definitely be classed as a long run. Opinions vary and I'm not sure whether or not 90-120 minute runs are useful for middle distance training at your level. But, personally, I'd be inclined to cut them back to 50-70 minutes until you're running at about 8:30 min/mile pace.

Running Bing

shels4ever wrote: »

Hi there,
No I havent been using the HM yet but might put it on next week to see. I think one big factor for my easy run pace dropping was tempo running and speed work this has help me improve the leg turnover big time as my pace on my easy runs.

I wouldnt worry about the pace on long runs too much its about time in the legs but if you can try to get maybe one tempo session a week and you will see improvments .

Also do your run alone?

Yeah I run alone shels. As I said for the past few weeks I have been focusing exclusively on building a base i.e. nothing but easy running but the speedwork starts next week so Ill be doing reps, intervals and tempo runs then. Hopefully that will drop the pace a bit.

I think 80 minutes can definitely be classed as a long run. Opinions vary and I'm not sure whether or not 90-120 minute runs are useful for middle distance training at your level. But, personally, I'd be inclined to cut them back to 50-70 minutes until you're running at about 8:30 min/mile pace.

Really? Thats interesting because I was planning on bumping it up to 10 miles next week and eventually I saw myself running 12 mile long runs.

I have the time to do it and Im used to the longer runs from marathon training (e.g. I dont really find the 8 mile run taxing and I dont even feel any different the day after) so I thought it would be ok.


Would you advise sticking at 8 miles?

cfitz

Babybing wrote: »

Really? Thats interesting because I was planning on bumping it up to 10 miles next week and eventually I saw myself running 12 mile long runs.

I have the time to do it and Im used to the longer runs from marathon training (e.g. I dont really find the 8 mile run taxing and I dont even feel any different the day after) so I thought it would be ok.


Would you advise sticking at 8 miles?

I'm not sure whether or not it's of benefit to do the really long runs, but if I was deciding for you I'd say 70 minutes max. Give us your schedule for the week (with rough paces) and maybe it'll tell more.

Running Bing

cfitz wrote: »

I'm not sure whether or not it's of benefit to do the really long runs, but if I was deciding for you I'd say 70 minutes max. Give us your schedule for the week (with rough paces) and maybe it'll tell more.

Well looking at the programme Im about to start a typical week will be

Monday: Repititions-Sets of (2x200m+1x400m) ~ 46 seconds per 200m

Tuesday: 4-5 mile easy run @10 min/mile (or faster depending how I feel)

Wednesday: Intervals sets of 800m with 2 min recovery jog ~ 3:20 per 800m

Thursday: Rest

Friday: 4-5 mile easy run @10 min/mile (or faster depending how I feel)

Saturday: Tempo 6x1000m @tempo pace with 1 min rest (tempo pace is 4:33 per 1000m)

Sunday: Long run.

All thats provisional of course seeing as I have not done those workouts yet (the paces are based on Daniels VDOT) but thats a general idea.

Doing some more research on this the consensus seems to be not to go over 90 mins for the long run so maybe Ill stick to that.

Running Bing

Had a real confidence boosting run today.


Did just over 8 miles over hilly terrain (1606ft of ascents). The weather was awful and it felt like I had a gale force wind in my face the whole way....the last mile felt like I was taking one step forward and two steps back the wind was so strong in my face and some of the hills were grass and the wet weather made them slippy underfoot.......so given all that I was surprised to realise I did it at 9:13 min/mile pace. The even bigger surprise is I did not find it that tough, never struggled and felt pretty comfortable the whole way (even battling the wind in the last mile). Makes me think Im well capable of running my easy runs a bit faster and that I have been taking it too easy (Although according to Hadd this may not be the worst thing in the world;))

The past day or two I have been absolutely dying for next weekends race and thats the end of my base building phase so Ill have a bit more variety in my training now.


So that has set me up nicely for the introduction of some speedwork and Im feeling very positive.:)

cfitz

Babybing wrote: »

Well looking at the programme Im about to start a typical week will be

Monday: Repititions-Sets of (2x200m+1x400m) ~ 46 seconds per 200m

Tuesday: 4-5 mile easy run @10 min/mile (or faster depending how I feel)

Wednesday: Intervals sets of 800m with 2 min recovery jog ~ 3:20 per 800m

Thursday: Rest

Friday: 4-5 mile easy run @10 min/mile (or faster depending how I feel)

Saturday: Tempo 6x1000m @tempo pace with 1 min rest (tempo pace is 4:33 per 1000m)

Sunday: Long run.

All thats provisional of course seeing as I have not done those workouts yet (the paces are based on Daniels VDOT) but thats a general idea.

Doing some more research on this the consensus seems to be not to go over 90 mins for the long run so maybe Ill stick to that.

Does Daniels advise the 3 sessions per week? In my (not very knowledgable) opinion, I would have recommended more focus on just building fitness for you. I suppose my reckoning is that to get the benefit from the 3rd session or the >70 minute run, you would need to be fitter than you currently are.

Great to hear training is going well for you, and hopefully you'll race well at the weekend.

Running Bing

cfitz wrote: »

Does Daniels advise the 3 sessions per week? In my (not very knowledgable) opinion, I would have recommended more focus on just building fitness for you. I suppose my reckoning is that to get the benefit from the 3rd session or the >70 minute run, you would need to be fitter than you currently are.

Yeah I was thinking the same actually. The thing is Im really just a beginner and its not specifically a beginners programme so that is something I have to keep in mind . The programme alternates between three quality sessions one week and then two the following week with the most important quality session scheduled first in the week and so on.

So basically if I dont feel up to the third quality session or feel it is having a detrimental affect on the rest of the programme Ill skip it.

Running Bing

Finally some faster running:D


Workout was sets of (2x200m with 200m recovery jogs + 1x400m with 400m recovery jog).

Did three sets in total and they went as follows:

Set 1:
1. 00:48
2. 00:42

3(400m). 1:38

Set 2:
1. 00:43
2. 00:44

3(400m). 1:35

Set 3:
1. 00:44
2. 00:44

3(400m). 1:34


The paces I was aiming for was 46 seconds for the 200's and 1:34 for the 400's.

I was surprised to find the pace felt very comfortable. I ran the rep's very relaxed and I felt I could've run them a fair bit faster and done a few more at the end. That was a big relief considering how off my easy pace seemed to be.


All in all a very enjoyable (and I feel rewarding) session and it felt absolutely wonderful to run at a faster pace.:pac:

Running Bing

Todays workout was an absolute killer!


It was the first really nice day of the year (that Ive been out running on anyway) and the workout was 4x1000m with 2 minutes rest in between.

The legs felt heavy and I knew after the first set I was never going to stick to the prescribed pace. The aim was to do each set in 4:12 but they went as follows:

1. 4:18
2. 4:21
3. 4:31
4. 4:34

Average heart rate on the intervals was 175 with maximums of 178, 181, 181, 182

So way off pace and I was quite disappointed in that. My track is still closed for upgrades so I had to do them on grass and there was a strong breeze but they were still a lot slower than I would've hoped. Didn't achieve what I wanted this workout but it was not a complete disaster because I learned an important lesson:

Daniels says do either 800m or 1000m intervals. Of course I listened to my ego and choose 1000m even though I have never done intervals before:rolleyes: This was a stupid move and I learned from now on introduce new things gradually. Ill definitely be dropping down to 800m the next time.


Based on my training so far I think my main weakness are a low lactate threshold and a low VO2max (which would make sense as I have never really trained those areas).....plenty of work to be done in those area's:)

Running Bing

Very disappointing day today. Ran a 21:52:( Gutted with that tbh. My k splits were as follows:

1k: 4:24 (pressed the start button late as well. This is way too slow)
2k: 4:11
3k: 4:21
4k: 4:29
5k: 4:09

Im a fair bit lighter now than I was on Jan 1st (when I ran 21:30), have a stronger core, I feel my form has improved, my diet was better leading up to this race and Im running 28 miles a week now versus less than 20 leading up to the last one and I still ran slower:mad:

Ive had a tough week this week with two pretty tough speed sessions and a 90 minute long run on Thursday and I had a very stressful week at college so maybe that accounts for it but the big thing for me is the lack of progress after all that base training.

Two and a half months of aerobic running and I feel it has got me nowhere. The writing was on the wall tbh and I had a feeling I would have a very hard time setting a PB today but its still disappointing.

Depressing really but in a way it makes me more determined than ever. Im doing workouts now that I am 100% sure will make a difference so hopefully my times start to fall.

Sick of all that easy sh1te anyway. Time to push it a bit I think.

Woddle

Your being very hard on yourself, you said it yourself you only started your speed work. Chin up and hammer the next one out of the park.

Running Bing

Woddle wrote: »

Your being very hard on yourself, you said it yourself you only started your speed work. Chin up and hammer the next one out of the park.

On a brighter note my club is down as Boards AC.


Which begs the question......am I the first boards AC finisher in this race?;)