Premier League B Teams

Sútalún

Recently there's been talk of Celtic/Rangers entering a B team in the Scottish lower leagues much like Real and Barca have.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/scot_div_1/7905786.stm

I can't find any article relating to a PL proposal however one may exist.

What would people think of some of the stronger premier league teams doing it? In one sense I'd love it because you'd get to see your clubs younger and fringe players battle it out against professional clubs. Reserve football seems to be more performance based and if the B teams were placed in a league it would really give the players a competitive goal.

However on the other hand I wouldn't like to see the B teams put in at other clubs expense. Clubs with a history that have been in the football league for years. So personally I can't really see it happen.

Mitch Connor

Sútalún wrote: »

Recently there's been talk of Celtic/Rangers entering a B team in the Scottish lower leagues much like Real and Barca have.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/scot_div_1/7905786.stm

I can't find any article relating to a PL proposal however one may exist.

What would people think of some of the stronger premier league teams doing it? In one sense I'd love it because you'd get to see your clubs younger and fringe players battle it out against professional clubs. Reserve football seems to be more performance based and if the B teams were placed in a league it would really give the players a competitive goal.

However on the other hand I wouldn't like to see the B teams put in at other clubs expense. Clubs with a history that have been in the football league for years. So personally I can't really see it happen.

Wouldn't like a B Team idea at all to be honest. I think Mourinho once said he wanted one in the english game.

mike65

Rafa talked about this as well in the past, I think continental managers like the idea. Spain has them of course as does Germany or at least thats what I assume all those Bundesliga Team 2s are in the third division.

If it happened then clearly other teams in the lower leagues would end up being displaced and that can only be bad.

Nalz

Should never happen

thats what reserve and loan deals are for.

Xavi6

A simple -1 will do here

stovelid

The lower leagues have teams already. Teams with tradition and history. Why saturate the league the reserve teams of bigger clubs?

As somebody has already said, loans and reserve football cater for your B team already.

SectionF

One great way to destroy the lower leagues.

Sútalún

Xavi6 wrote: »

A simple -1 will do here

Why?? Do you really think it's such a ridiculous idea? I mean it works very well in Spain and it's also in place in Japan. If the right structure was put in place I think it would work well in England too as long as the history and respect of other clubs was upheld. Although its difficult to see how this would be done.

Dont be at yourself

If the right structure was put in place I think it would work well in England too as long as the history and respect of other clubs was upheld. Although its difficult to see how this would be done.

By restricting B-teams from being promoted, and fielding players over a certain age.

The idea undoubtedly has merits. It would bring a little bit more lustre to the lower leagues, and no doubt generate TV and sponsorship money that it otherwise might not. Then, all clubs in the league benefit.

It also gives fans of the big clubs a chance to go and see the team that they love, without the extornionate ticket prices - much in the same way that AFC Liverpool and FC United do, but with a greater and more relevant connection to the club.

event

i would have no problem with this.

so long as they have to enter at the Northern Premier League, Southern League, or Isthmian League level

there is no way in hell they should be put into a league at the expense of an actual football team

let them work their way up

Sútalún

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

By restricting B-teams from being promoted, and fielding players over a certain age.

The idea undoubtedly has merits. It would bring a little bit more lustre to the lower leagues, and no doubt generate TV and sponsorship money that it otherwise might not. Then, all clubs in the league benefit.

It also gives fans of the big clubs a chance to go and see the team that they love, without the extornionate ticket prices - much in the same way that AFC Liverpool and FC United do, but with a greater and more relevant connection to the club.

Well said. As the other poster above me says though it would only be right that they'd start as low down as is necessary to deem it then acceptable for them to reach the football league. If that makes any sense.. :pac:

Xavi6

Sútalún wrote: »

Why?? Do you really think it's such a ridiculous idea? I mean it works very well in Spain and it's also in place in Japan. If the right structure was put in place I think it would work well in England too as long as the history and respect of other clubs was upheld. Although its difficult to see how this would be done.

Yes I think it's a crap idea and completely devalues clubs who have years of history. There's enough eliticism in football as it is without the big clubs being able to use and abuse the lower leagues for their own benefits.

Reserve teams and loan deals are more than enough for clubs to breed the next generation.

stovelid

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

It would bring a little bit more lustre to the lower leagues,

For who?

Fans of the clubs actually in the league, or fans of bigger clubs who can get an extra fix of football when their B Team is playing?

Why crap on another league when loaning out players (or keeping a reserve league) is a far more equatable way of gaining experience for your fringe players?

Believe it or not, supporters in the lower leagues may not creaming their pants at the thought of watching Chelsea reserves, if it means that their league will become a dumping ground for reserve teams.

mike65

I imagine it could lead to some hositilty bearing in mind the average semi-pro wage of a most Conference sides v reservists from the Prem.

Highsider

Think it's an excellent idea TBH.

PHB

It's a good idea in terms of top level youth development. There's no doubt about this. Young players at top clubs will get a chance to work their way up through the league.

That said, it creates a situation where there's no reason not for the top teams to buy up every haf decent player out there, since they can just farm them out. That's what the top clubs in Spain does, and imo its half the reason why its so imbalanced.

Good for the national team, bad for the league imo.

loyatemu

its possibly a good idea for scotland - lower league teams there have ridiculously low attendances and anything thats gives them a boost would probably be welcomed.

In England, I can't see the case for it - even allowing for all the financial problems, England probably has the healthiest (in terms of attendances and competition) lower-leagues in Europe. Adding a bunch of reserve teams made up of under-motivated over-paid squad players isn't gonna benefit anyone.

Dont be at yourself

That said, it creates a situation where there's no reason not for the top teams to buy up every haf decent player out there, since they can just farm them out. That's what the top clubs in Spain does, and imo its half the reason why its so imbalanced.

The Spanish youth system is often held up as the best in the world. Sure, Madrid and Barca snap up a huge amount of young players - but these young players then reap the rewards of the highest levels of training. And those that don't make it for these teams often make it at other high level clubs. The careers of Pepe Reina, Luis Garcia, Granero, De La Red, Dos Santos and dozens more highlight the successes of this approach.

This contrasts greatly with the fortunes of players in the English youth system - who usually simply drop down a division or two, or move to a lesser league in Europe, if they don't make it at their club.

It's clear to most people that reserve and youth football in England isn't producing the quality of players that it should be. If young players were given the opportunity to play competitive football at a high level week-in, week-out against seasoned pros, it will undoubtedly improve the standard. And the 'smaller' clubs will benefit, as the standard will filter down through the leagues.

Xavi6

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

It's clear to most people that reserve and youth football in England isn't producing the quality of players that it should be.

Depends on the club.

If young players were given the opportunity to play competitive football at a high level week-in, week-out against seasoned pros, it will undoubtedly improve the standard. And the 'smaller' clubs will benefit, as the standard will filter down through the leagues.

I personally don't think a team of 18 year olds will get anything more than sore shins from playing a team of seasoned pros in the League Two or the like. Their superior speed and skill will simply see opponents resorting to kicking them around the pitch.

Dont be at yourself

I personally don't think a team of 18 year olds will get anything more than sore shins from playing a team of seasoned pros in the League Two or the like. Their superior speed and skill will simply see opponents resorting to kicking them around the pitch.

But that's exactly the appeal of such an approach. The main criticism aimed at youth players trying to break through is that they're too lightweight and not able for the physical challenges of first-team football. Playing against similarly lightweight 18 year olds isn't going to address this issue. Playing in the lower leagues will. And who knows, their 'superior speed and skill' might brush off on the opposition teams as well.

Xavi6

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

But that's exactly the appeal of such an approach. The main criticism aimed at youth players trying to break through is that they're too lightweight and not able for the physical challenges of first-team football. Playing against similarly lightweight 18 year olds isn't going to address this issue. Playing in the lower leagues will.

I really can't see a bunch of kids in white boots with spikey haircuts getting on too well against a regular lower league team. there will be a lot of hostility towards these B teams and that will come out on the pitch.

And who knows, their 'superior speed and skill' might brush off on the opposition teams as well.

Hardly do much for the 35 year old journeyman who's just playing one or two more years to put his kids through college.

PiE

Xavi6 wrote: »

Hardly do much for the 35 year old journeyman who's just playing one or two more years to put his kids through college.

This sounds like some sort of political party line. Really, there's no point in bringing up things like that when you're talking about improving the overall quality and system.

Dont be at yourself

I really can't see a bunch of kids in white boots with spikey haircuts getting on too well against a regular lower league team. there will be a lot of hostility towards these B teams and that will come out on the pitch.

Give it a few years. No doubt the attitudes and expectations of the kids will adapt to the realities of playing league football - which, again, is exactly the purpose of the exercise.

And undoubtedly there will be a lot of hostility against these teams. The opposition will want to prove their worth, and put these pampered upstarts in their place. They'll up their game more to beat Arsenal B than they would if they were lining up against York City.

Hardly do much for the 35 year old journeyman who's just playing one or two more years to put his kids through college.

True. However, it might do wonders for the younger players, and give them a chance to prove themselves against 'high class' opposition. There are undoubtedly cracking players in the lower leagues, and the chance for them to play against highly-trained, highly-talented youngsters from the big clubs could potentially be a great outlet for them. It could help discover the next Tim Cahill.

Xavi6

PiE wrote: »

This sounds like some sort of political party line. Really, there's no point in bringing up things like that when you're talking about improving the overall quality and system.

Why not? Are you saying that the lower leagues aren't littered with exactly that type of player?

stovelid

Doesn't the idea also make a mockery for the actual raison-d'etre of playing in a league - promotion. Why would Mega B care about that if it's just a football lab for reservists, fringe and young players. What would happen if a B team went up to the Championship and pushed for promotion, beating a genuine contender to the title? If you say this won;t happen, then why enter any competitive league in the first place?

As for the guff about supporters of the actual teams loving watching B football, why don't they just go and watch the nearest premiership team instead? Hint: because they actually support their team and that league; it's not a stop-gap until some local sub-premiership action can be rustled up.

The arrogance of some of the big club supporters is breathtaking. The history and viability of leagues other than your own mean nothing, just as long as it benefits your own club.

Dont be at yourself

Doesn't the idea also make a mockery for the actual raison-d'etre of playing in a league - promotion. Why would Mega B care about that if it's just a football lab for reservists, fringe and young players.

Why would the players of Mega B care about it? Because it's a chance for them to prove themselves.

As for the guff about supporters of the actual teams loving watching B football, why wouldn't they just go and watch the nearest premiership team instead? Hint: because they actually support their team, it's not a stop-gap until some local sub-premiership action can be rustled.

In the same way that fans of lower league teams look forward to cup runs, I'd imagine fans would relish the chance to watch their own team play against high-profile opposition. I don't see how the notions of supporting one's team and wanting them to play againt a B team are mutually exclusive.

The arrogance of some of the big club supporters is breathtaking. The history and viability of leagues other than your own means nothing, just as long as it benefits your own club.

Not all changes are bad, you know. Football has constantly evolved over the years and decades. In this case, I believe that the change would not only benefit the big clubs, but also benefit standards of the lower leagues, the clubs that play in those leagues, the national sides and the entire game as a whole.

Helix

dreadful idea, absolutely dreadful

stovelid

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Why would the players of Mega B care about it? Because it's a chance for them to prove themselves.

.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

I'd imagine fans would relish the chance to watch their own team play against high-profile opposition. I don't see how the notions of supporting one's team and wanting them to play againt a B team are mutually exclusive.

The novelty of watching Mega B would fade rapidly when their chances of promotion begin to fade equally rapidly, and the lower leagues become a competitive charade similar to the premiership.

Plus the point is being consistently missed here. Why would a Stockport county or Bury fan cream his pants about watching City or United B? They can just stop supporting their local club and head into Manchester and see the real thing if they want. As can anybody in England (or Ireland ).

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

In this case, I believe that the change would not only benefit the big clubs, but also benefit standards of the lower leagues, the clubs that play in those leagues, the national sides and the entire game as a whole.

The move would lead to much larger squads for mega clubs. Instead of playing in the reserves, you could play to reasonable crowds but still draw a wage packet bigger than the 'normal' clubs you are playing against.

The English leagues outside of the premiership are quite unique as in they are well attended, full of clubs with long histories, some even with illustrious pasts. The fans deserve better than mere nursery leagues for the super clubs.

bigstar

stovelid wrote: »

The arrogance of some of the big club supporters is breathtaking. The history and viability of leagues other than your own mean nothing, just as long as it benefits your own club.

what he said and...

Helix wrote: »

dreadful idea, absolutely dreadful

what he said

this is only a good thing for the big clubs, but football is about more than the big clubs. seriously if its not enough for you to support your club in the PL/CL/FA Cup/League Cup maybe think about a different sport.

Dont be at yourself

The novelty of watching Mega B would fade rapidly when their chances of promotion begin to fade equally rapidly, and the lower leagues become a competitive charade similar to the premiership.

Do you really think that the reserve/youth teams of Premiership clubs would walk away with league titles? I don't think so. They don't in Spain.

Plus the point is being consistently missed here. Why would a Stockport county or Bury fan cream his pants about watching City or United B? They can just stop supporting their local club and head into Manchester and see the real thing if they want. As can anybody in England (or Ireland ).

Why do Bury and Stockport County fans cream their pants and fill their stadiums when they draw City or United in the cup? Because they want a chance to watch their team test themselves against bigger clubs.

bigstar

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Why do Bury and Stockport County fans cream their pants and fill their stadiums when they draw City or United in the cup? Because they want a chance to watch their team test themselves against bigger clubs.

but they wont be testing themselves against bigger clubs. they'll be testing themselves against reserves. man united does not equal man united B. and where will these b games be played, it wont be old trafford unless the boards.ie committee on football improvement also changes the lower leagues schedule to accommodate the big PL clubs, which of course is all football is about. NO.

Dont be at yourself

I take your point. However, the reputation - both of the club itself, and of these 'future stars' that will be taking to the field - will offer incentive for the opposition players - particularly younger ones - to prove that they can mix it up with the supposed stars of tomorrow.

Obviously the notion of playing at Old Trafford etc. is unlikely to happen, and I wouldn't welcome that anyway. For all intents and purposes, they'd function like any other club in the league - with their own stadium, their own manager and their own squad of registered players. Just like in Spain.

CiaranC

This would dilute and devalue every league below the premiership. The mind boggles how anyone could think this is a good idea.

bigstar

i wouldnt want it happen. the football league is not in existence for the benefit of the PL clubs, its there to cater for the other 72 clubs and their communities.

invincibleirish

Perhaps let the PL teams establish formal agreements with lower league clubs in their areas to take their reserve and youth players into their squads. Allow these teams then to use the bigger clubs training facilities when needed on top of any financial support?.

I'm hesitant to use the term feeder clubs but seeing as Arsenal & Man Utd have had these type of agreements in place with Belgian clubs to circumvent UK immigration laws and allow for promising youngsters to get time on the pitch its not too much of a stretch of the imagination to allow these clubs do likewise with local clubs.

Dont be at yourself

But as it stands, you see clubs like Crewe who serve as veritable B teams for Liverpool, who have historically taken quite a number of Liverpool players on loan. Does that not do a bigger disservice to the club than having them compete with an actual B team?

stovelid

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

I take your point. However, the reputation - both of the club itself, and of these 'future stars' that will be taking to the field - will offer incentive for the opposition players - particularly younger ones - to prove that they can mix it up with the supposed stars of tomorrow.
.

Wouldn't all be future stars, would it?

I would assume that if this idea replaced reserve teams, you would see a smattering of name players passing through the B Team at any given time - players on the first few games back from injury; those 'banished to the reserves' for pulling a moody or players on the fringe of the first team squad.

Dont be at yourself

Wouldn't all be future stars, would it?

No, but it's the reputatation and expectation that these players are good enough for the highest level that provides the incentive.

I would assume that if this idea replaced reserve teams, you would see a smattering of name players passing through the B Team at any given time - players on the first few games back from injury; those 'banished to the reserves' for pulling a moody or squad players who are not picked for the first team squad.

That's certainly an issue. Personally, I'd like to see an age-limit. I think the system employed in Spain that if the player is registered in the A-team's squad for that season, he is unavailable for selection in the B-team. Seems fair to me.

Jam-Fly

nah, don't really like the idea.

yeah I agree it wud be nice for the fringe players at bigger clubs to have something competitive to play for, but I think loan deals are alot better of an idea than B teams

stovelid

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

But as it stands, you see clubs like Crewe who serve as veritable B teams for Liverpool, who have historically taken quite a number of Liverpool players on loan. Does that not do a bigger disservice to the club than having them compete with an actual B team?

Loan deals are the existing, successful solution. The bigger club benefits from the players cutting their teeth and the smaller club gets temporary talent. And the lower leagues keep their identity and viability.

The smaller club isn't as compromised as they are offering a valuable service to the bigger club and receiving an equally valuable service back.

Dont be at yourself

Loan deals are the existing, successful solution. The bigger club benefits from the players cutting their teeth and the smaller club gets temporary talent. And the lower leagues keep their identity and viability.

The only snag is: they're not successful. Compare and contrast the players who have cut their teeth at Crewe and Burnley to the players who have emerged from Real Madrid B and Barcelona B.

anonymous_joe

Thing is, England has the healthiest lower league set up other than Italy, which doesn't even have reserve teams.

At teh end of the day, England's national team and best young players would benefit hugely from such a move. The only people who would lose out are the mediocre players at mediocre clubs.

However, they've got a place in football, and after all, there's more history behind some of those ancient clubs, such as MK Dons, than there would be of an upstart Liverpool B or Arsenal B.

CiaranC

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

The only snag is: they're not successful. Compare and contrast the players who have cut their teeth at Crewe and Burnley to the players who have emerged from Real Madrid B and Barcelona B.

Well if you solely define "succesful" as helping large clubs develop talent. There is far more to it than that.

Xavi6

anonymous_joe wrote: »

ancient clubs, such as MK Dons,

Dont be at yourself

But surely if the big clubs were producing talent like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla and so on do, it will benefit the entire game in England? Is it not crucially important that the large clubs are helped to develop talent?

Helix

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

But as it stands, you see clubs like Crewe who serve as veritable B teams for Liverpool, who have historically taken quite a number of Liverpool players on loan. Does that not do a bigger disservice to the club than having them compete with an actual B team?

crewe are still their own club with their own history and tradition

youd really have no problem with getting rid of them for the likes of liverpool b? kinda pisses all over fans of smaller clubs doesnt it?

stovelid

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Is it not crucially important that the large clubs are helped to develop talent?

Define crucially important. And for whom. I love it that Roy Keane emerged from Cobh. I liked watching him play.

Would I prioritize United and Ireland over my own club and community?

No.

Clubs have a function, to their fans and community, other than helping big clubs produce talent.

anonymous_joe

Xavi6 wrote: »

Well let's face it, not all the clubs down there have any history or merit.

Is Manchester United B in any way worse than MK Dons?

yahoo_moe

stovelid wrote: »

Loan deals are the existing, successful solution. The bigger club benefits from the players cutting their teeth and the smaller club gets temporary talent. And the lower leagues keep their identity and viability.

I agree that any B team system would benefit the big teams far more than the smaller teams down the leagues... but I can't agree that loan deals perform the same function as a B team would at all.

With a B team, players at the same club are playing together as they would in Reserve teams and gaining an understanding with the players who are supposed to be their future teammates - not trying to prove they're good enough for Arsenal/Utd/etc. by playing with a bunch of guys who'll never get near those teams.

I'm not arguing for the B team proposal - but I think the advantage to the big clubs compared to loan deals is clear.

yahoo_moe

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Is Manchester United B in any way worse than MK Dons?

I can't believe you're asking a City fan that question

Iang87

i think its anawful idea on a number of levels. the main one being if hypothetically Liverpool are on for the title and they draw Liverpool B in the cup and one mistimed tackle from a poxy 18 year old injures gerrard or torres and they're out for the season then just about how many of the liverpool fans will want anything to do with that Liverpool B team after that incident.

Also teams would have to play their good players against their respective B team should they meet in the cup otherwise it'll look like the B team were told roll over and lose.

Theres too many grey areas for this to ever work. Stick with the actual system its served English Football well enough for over a century