Dog Neutering advice please!!!

TFP

I have dilemma at the moment.

I have a 14 month male old black lab, he isn't neutered, has been a fantastic dog to date. Great fun, fairly well behaved and very sociable around other dogs, however recently he is showing a very agressive streak towards other un-neutered males .. especially in the company of bitches.

He is never let roam and always in a controlled enviorment.

People are telling me I should have him neutered, but I don't want to do this just for the sake of it, I don't want to put him through any trauma or unnessary operations .. who I am I to decided that a dog should have part of him removed.

I don't really have any intention of breeding him, but as it stands if anyone wanted a cover I wouldn't object, he has a champion bloodline and even if I say so myself looks like a perfect example of a lab.

I intend on doing some formal training him over the summer, especially to a gun, will neutering have any affect on this?

The advise I have gotten from the Lab Club is not to neuter (I am assuming they are biased), and others who are advising me are probably doing so based on their priorities.

My vet has listed all the doomsday medical complications that he might face in the future if he is left complete, which scares me, but are they giving the worst case senario?

I have never had a male dog before and am at a bit of a crossroads ... i'd like to hear some opinions on the matter!!

Thanks,

TFP

andreac

Ok firstly if you do not intend to use him for stud i would def have him neutered. You say if someone wanted to use him you would have no objection, but have you had him health tested or willing to do so if you will use him for stud?
There are several health tests for every breed and with labs they are prone to hip dysplacia, so have you or will you have hip hip scored? If you arent willing to do all the necessary health tests then you SHOULDNT use him for stud.
Health testing is not just going to the vet and saying he is healthy, there are loads of tests necessary so if you really want to stud him then i would contact an expert and get their advice.
How do you know he is a good example of the breed, have you shown him? Just because you think he looks nice and is from champ bloodlines doesnt necessarily mean he is a good example of the breed.

Ok back to neutering, there are so many postives for neutering, it will stop them wandering looking for bitches in heat, dogs will travel for miles for a bitch in heat.

The aggressiveness with other entire males is natural, i own a rottie and he is entire and you have to be very careful around other entire dogs.

I cant comment on whether it would affect him with the gun.

If i had a male dog and i wasnt showing him or going to use for stud i would def neuter all the way. There are so many unwanted puppies out there and if your dog would happen to mate with a bitch by mistake then there would be even more unwanted puppies.

Training will def help, but as far as it goes with aggressiveness with other entire dogs, that wont really change.

TFP

andreac wrote: »

Ok firstly if you do not intend to use him for stud i would def have him neutered. You say if someone wanted to use him you would have no objection, but have you had him health tested or willing to do so if you will use him for stud?
There are several health tests for every breed and with labs they are prone to hip dysplacia, so have you or will you have hip hip scored? If you arent willing to do all the necessary health tests then you SHOULDNT use him for stud.
Health testing is not just going to the vet and saying he is healthy, there are loads of tests necessary so if you really want to stud him then i would contact an expert and get their advice.
How do you know he is a good example of the breed, have you shown him? Just because you think he looks nice and is from champ bloodlines doesnt necessarily mean he is a good example of the breed.

thanks for your reply, I think you may have taken me up wrongly on the intention to stud.

I know that 'dog experts' like yourselves will always dismiss anyone who even mentions breeding on public forums, to an outsider it feels like there is a closed shop regarding breeding and everyone else is villified for even mentioning it. Even though, I mentioned it in passing regarding another issue you have immediatly jumped on this statement and replied assuming I was acting like a puppy farm and had no knowledge of what was involved.

I have no intention of pimping him out, it was a case of if someone asked I wouldn't have been closed to the option.

I was in communicication with his mothers owner well before he was concieved and am fullly aware of all the necessary checks that had to be done to have the bitch brought to be covered, including the Hip Scoring.

In fact I even know the costs involved as it isn't cheap !!! I am not totally green to breeding and the rights and wrongs of it.

As far as how good an example of the breed that he is, I will admit I am no expert but it has been said to me. I haven't shown him, but have been asked to. I don't know if I have either the will or the way to get involved in showing a dog. (that is another matter altogether, my wife does want to show him)


With regards to the agressiveness are you saying this will not go away with neutering? I know he will still want to mark his patch but will he be threatened by other entire dogs?

spurscormac

Have a look at my recent thread about it - had similar misgivings ahead of doing it, but just wasn't comfortable with him growling at other males & the potential for him to run away after a bitch.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055489667

He's going to get the stitches out next Tuesday, and has been great so far.
He does try to lick them, and has used his lampshade collar as a battering ram, but the only issue we've had is trying to calm him down. He's back to his (almost) full self, and full of energy, we just want to take it easy with him until the stitches have fully healed.

One thing I would advise - he will get sick over the first 24 hours. Just feed small amounts regularly. Our fella was famished and we made the mistake of giving him too much in one go. Gently does it, and he'll be fine after a couple of days.

andreac

Sorry i didnt mean to come across harsh its just there are so many people out there breeding dogs coz they think their dogs are lovely and have great temperaments. So im glad you know the story then about all that, so apologies if i came across harsh.

With regards to the aggressiveness with other entire males, no i dont think that will go away, coz 2 when 2 entire males come face to face there will always be competition for top male so there will always be aggression if one or the other is aggressive towards each other.

realgem19

Dog aggression is a matter of training largely and how well the dog was socialized as a small pup. A 14 month old dog of many breeds is simply testing the waters and feeleing his oats. If he is not corrected and properly checked (not beaten, just given a firm no, jerk to the collar usually sufficient) he will continue a behavior he can get away with and it will get worse.
Some vets can now neuter without removing anything, just a snip. He'll be far better off and so will you unless you are a consciensious and experienced breeder.
Good luck with him!

TFP

realgem19 wrote: »

Dog aggression is a matter of training largely and how well the dog was socialized as a small pup. A 14 month old dog of many breeds is simply testing the waters and feeleing his oats.

he has been very well socialized since he was innoculated as a pup, has a few regular friends that he plays with every evening in the fields beside the house ... this aggressive streak has come out of no where and only directed at certain dogs!!!

In saying that, he is still a very social dog, loves meeting and playing with dogs and horses !! .. usually he won't be happy coming in from a walk if he hasn't at least said hello to another hound when he is out and about !!

My next question is sort of rhetorical but I would like to know if this aggression could spill over to my newborn daughter? She is nearly a month old now and so far he has respected the allowed distances and seems not to even take any notice unless he is being shown her or talked to !!

realgem19

by pup socialization I mean Before you got him, in his litter, from birth.
I have significant experience whelping and raising litters. Pups need to be raised around all kinds of household noises and situations, handled lots and exposed to older dogs when they are very small (within reason).
That aside, I would take the dog to pet obedience, just to have a class for you and the dog to have time together and do stuff (beginner agility if he has already had formal beginner obedience).
Many people believe this is not necessary, and everyone is entitled to whatever opinion they may have, but mine is based on experience with another gundog breed.
I would not worry about the baby, only if the bad behavior began when you brought baby home.
Just make sure baby is never with dog (no matter how much confidence you have in the dog) alone. never never never.
Does your dog have a crate? I know lots of people are not happy with that too, but it is a sure way to know where he is when your eyes are on baby or you are busy.
Not meaning to say that anything you are doing is wrong or inadequate. But dogs need a boss (you), doggie classes help you bond with doggie, hence better trust and satisfies dog's need for your leadership and attention. Playing in doggie park is fine but that does not encourage your dog to see you as his leader.
At his age, challenging authority (you through another dog) is how he learns. We do not really know how dogs communicate with each other, so the dogs your Lab does not like may be saying something to him you are missing.
Best of luck with Lab and congrats on your baby too :-))

TFP

realgem19 wrote: »

by pup socialization I mean Before you got him, in his litter, from birth.
I have significant experience whelping and raising litters. Pups need to be raised around all kinds of household noises and situations, handled lots and exposed to older dogs when they are very small (within reason).

He was in a small litter, on himself and his brother, but was raised with three older dogs (his mother and another two adult labs) in a very busy enviorment.

As soon as was allowed after getting his shots he was introduced to two dogs in my family and meet plenty others out and about on his walks.

As soon as we learned that we were having a baby ourselves we made a point of introducing him to children, my neices and nephews. His behaviour around these children gave us confidence as to how he would react to a newborn. Thankfully he has rewarded this confidence with very good behaviour, mind you he gets just as much attention as he did before and his walks and play time schedules havn't changed at all.

I don't really have any concerns about how he has been socialized to date.

realgem19 wrote: »

That aside, I would take the dog to pet obedience, just to have a class for you and the dog to have time together and do stuff (beginner agility if he has already had formal beginner obedience).
Many people believe this is not necessary, and everyone is entitled to whatever opinion they may have, but mine is based on experience with another gundog breed.

I have managed to do some basic training myself with him, especially when we are out exercising. He does obey and learns quickly .. mind you he still is a little too anxious to chase off after other dogs when he is out. I am putting this down to playfullness, being entire and still not having mastered the recall command ... which is being worked on as we speak and will be formost on the agenda with formal training shortly.

realgem19 wrote: »

I would not worry about the baby, only if the bad behavior began when you brought baby home.

Now that you mention it, his agression to other male dogs has only started since the baby was born, but I can't make a connection. His behaviour around the house, on walks hasn't changed. It is just when his is with a group of dogs. I have been putting it down to age and the hormones of a teenager!!!

realgem19 wrote: »

Just make sure baby is never with dog (no matter how much confidence you have in the dog) alone. never never never.
Does your dog have a crate? I know lots of people are not happy with that too, but it is a sure way to know where he is when your eyes are on baby or you are busy.

I wouldn't even dream of leaving the baby unattended, we do present the baby to the dog and let him have a sniff, he responds with a wag of the tail and that is about it. When my wife is feeding the baby, he will sit across her feet but won't interfere.

realgem19 wrote: »

Not meaning to say that anything you are doing is wrong or inadequate. But dogs need a boss (you), doggie classes help you bond with doggie, hence better trust and satisfies dog's need for your leadership and attention. Playing in doggie park is fine but that does not encourage your dog to see you as his leader.
At his age, challenging authority (you through another dog) is how he learns. We do not really know how dogs communicate with each other, so the dogs your Lab does not like may be saying something to him you are missing.
Best of luck with Lab and congrats on your baby too :-))

I do feel he sees me as the leader, he will always wait on my command to do anything, won't eat anything until I give him the go ahead, waits for me at open doors and will sit, wait and recall (depending on the enviorment) on demand.

It's my wife's first dog, I have always had dogs in my family, the joy we get from him is special and despite some family members insisting that we couldn't have a baby and a dog he is firmly a member of the family and as with last year our holiday plans will have him at the centre. (Pet friendly accom in west cork and a week of exercise and play!!!)

Actually, talking about this makes me feel like I should be paying more attention to the baby!!!

Beth

Doggie classes might also help with the trying to run after dogs. He would learn to stand and pay attention to you and you alone, in the middle of a pack of dogs, respond to commands in among the distractions and break the habit he's forming.

The agression towards other dogs could be a couple of things. He could be just maturing and going through the "Kevin" stage where he's pushing the boundaries to see how far he can go. Reinforcing the training he's had since you got him should take care of it. Even if they've been the best dog in the world, when the Kevin stage hits, they can seem as if they have had no training at all whatsoever! It can be embarrasing

When he's with a group of dogs, and it surfaces, is he on the lead? Or can he run off if he feels he needs to ("flight" response). They have in order freeze, flight or fight responses. the lead stops them using their flight response. Last resort is fight - but what comes before it is the noise and posturing to try keep the other dog away. Maybe have a look on google for lead agression as well and see does that ring a few bells.

As for neutering....
I'm all for neutering if its appropriate for the particular dog, and at the right time for individual dogs. Some dogs are neutered at the really worst time and it affects them for the rest of ther lives. Other dogs arent suited to being neutered due to fear, the testosterone gives them a little confidence (not all out cockiness) and removing that can be detrimental to the dogs quality of life, as they can life in fear for the rest of their lives. Other dogs are neutered at the recommended age which can be 6 months in some vets, 1 year in other vets for small breeds, and 2 years for larger breeds (basically once they've matured) and they do fine.

The spiel we got from vets wasnt entirely accurate either.
We were told all about cancer prevention - what we werent told was that the cancers it prevents were not a high risk anyway. We were given the impression that those cancers are found in a large percentage of dogs and that a big percentage of dogs died from those particular cancers (testicular)


Have a read of this, take all things in to consideration and then make up your own mind if neutering or not is appropriate for your own dog. You know him best. Consult a behaviourist as well if you want, just to see is it maturity thats causing this or if its something else. http://www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering/spaying_neutering.shtml

A bit of scientific stuff with percentages etc
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Males:
On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer - Yet this is the big push from some vets as a reason to neuter.
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)


On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

TFP

Thanks for you input and advise, with a bit of research and thinking I have had our lad dropped in this morning for his operation.

We decided in the wind up that it was a better option and hopefully will give him a more enjoyable life (I'd prefer not to have to discuss that aspect again as whats done is done)

It was gut wrenching dropping him in this morning and I am dreading picking him up this evening. He will probably have a different view of car journeys from now on!!

spurscormac, I have read your thread about the after care and it is very helpfull .. but I really don't know how I can manage with looking after his stiches when he gets his energy back.

He is taken out for at least an hour and a half every day if not two and a half hours .. he is fit as a fiddle and loves energetic walks, galloping and tearing through the fields. He will not settle in the evening until I have my walking boots on and the leash in my hand, I am worried about how I can spend this energy safely. He will be bouncing off the walls for the next few days !!

Beth

Have you a kong?
Mental games will help get rid of the energy without too much physical exercise.
Smear a bit of peanut butter or liver paste or any kind of meat paste in there - just a small bit so as not to upset his stomach after the anaesthetic but I doubt he'd be interested at all in it tonight. But you can put his normal food in it then the following days to try tire him out while he's still resting from physical exercise.

We were told as long as they didnt pull at the stitches, keeping them clean a day or two after wards was ok. but not immediately.

Cook up a bit of boiled chicken and rice, for tonight if ye are allowed to feed him. Just give him a small bit first to take the raw hunger off him, and so he doesnt gobble too much down into his stomach only for it to come back up. You may be advised not to feed him at all tonight, so you might not need to cook it at all. You could give the rest/other half of the food then a while later when his tummy has settled a bit more and he hasnt brought up the small bit from earlier. You could put it in the kong but I wouldnt tonight, as he'll get frustrated trying to get it out if he's starving - and he probably will be, so with that and the anaesthetic he would probably just want food and sleep.

He will recover a bit faster than if it was a bitch getting spayed. Just keep an eye/ear out for moans/groans in case there is a stitch too tight or he's not feeling right at all. But - dont be afraid to ring the vet or go back if you feel that something isnt right with his recovery. Some people are, so dont be

Be prepared for a bit of vomiting either in the car or when he gets out. If he doesnt, you'll be pleasantly surprised, but at least it wont come as a shock to you if he does. The motion combined with the anaesthetic can make them feel very whoozy.

One other thing I would suggest when you go pick him up from the operation - dont act as if its a big deal. Just get on with things. He will come out of there less stressed if you act as if nothing happened, no big deal. You can make a fuss of him then later on in the evening if you must

realgem19

What Beth says is great, sometimes vet will give dog a cone for the head if he's worrying the sew up job.
Did you ever keep him in a crate (dog den)? If he had used one when a pup, he might be OK with it now for when no one can watch him. He won't feel too great today, maybe even tomorrow, so he won't need a run for a day or so, and the whole deal will be behind you soon.
I do know how you feel about the drop off, but you did the right thing for your buddy!
He'll be right again in no time.

misssaucie

Hi there, I'm no expert I'm just a new puppy mom passing on some good advice the vet gave us. He said that he couldn't recommend neutering enough and it should be done as soon as possible or preferably to a pup before he is 6 months old... the vet is a good friend and was giving us good advice and not touting for business in case anyone thinks that! Anyway we have no intention to breed off him but like you we weren't sure what the best option is for our little man. Vet said that one of the signs to look for is if the dog starts showing signs of dominance, which your lab is at the mo, then it's time to get it done. Hope I've been of some help!

TFP wrote: »

I have dilemma at the moment.

I have a 14 month male old black lab, he isn't neutered, has been a fantastic dog to date. Great fun, fairly well behaved and very sociable around other dogs, however recently he is showing a very agressive streak towards other un-neutered males .. especially in the company of bitches.

He is never let roam and always in a controlled enviorment.

People are telling me I should have him neutered, but I don't want to do this just for the sake of it, I don't want to put him through any trauma or unnessary operations .. who I am I to decided that a dog should have part of him removed.

I don't really have any intention of breeding him, but as it stands if anyone wanted a cover I wouldn't object, he has a champion bloodline and even if I say so myself looks like a perfect example of a lab.

I intend on doing some formal training him over the summer, especially to a gun, will neutering have any affect on this?

The advise I have gotten from the Lab Club is not to neuter (I am assuming they are biased), and others who are advising me are probably doing so based on their priorities.

My vet has listed all the doomsday medical complications that he might face in the future if he is left complete, which scares me, but are they giving the worst case senario?

I have never had a male dog before and am at a bit of a crossroads ... i'd like to hear some opinions on the matter!!

Thanks,

TFP

Beth

Its not recommended to neuter a dog or bitch before they're six months old. It can cause far more problems than is hoped to prevent. In dogs, the testosterone helps with closing the growth plates so without allowing the dog to mature before neutering, the dog can grow bigger bones than is standard for their breed which can go on to cause bone disorders. Do whats best for you and your dog, do your research and read the studies done on dogs that were neutered before 6 months old. Some dogs are done before 6 months and there are no problems, but they've been the luckier ones. Its worth researching what is best for your individual dog, not going by generalisations to cover all dogs.
By the way, there are very few truly dominant dogs in the world. The word "dominant" gets flung about way too much, especially when a dog is coming into maturity. Just because a teenager backchats and pushes the boundaries, would you cut his off? Training, handling and managagement works wonders when a dog is maturing until the time is right for him to be neutered according to his own situation.

TFP

well he got through his ordeal and had a strange evening !!

he was definitly out of sorts but was delighted to get home where he had a few new toys to play with (ironically this included to new rubber balls!!:o).

He was hungry and ate his dinner without any encouragment, but found it very hard to settle down. he was moving from couch to floor to back garden to kitchen to hall way untill late enough he plonked his head in my lap and watched the telly!!

The stiches are at him alright, he is licking them a little, i'm trying to discourage him using his toys, which is working. I have noticed that he is a little constipated, could be down to the pain in that region, but he is still managing a little.

His kong got a refresh with their liver biscuts to keep him amused, the Wife is at home with him for the whole day to keep any eye and he seems to be getting back to his usual self.

I will try and get him out for an hour or so this evening on the leash, but I know he will want a good run out and play so this will have to be a short leash and brisk walk!!

He has his pain killers and thankfully will take them with no problem hidden in a little treat.

Beth

Glad to hear he is home safe!
@ the rubber balls
Thats great about the food. Some dont eat at all even though they're starving!

If hes finding it hard to go to the loo, you could go on with chicken and rice until the pain starts to subside and make it a bit easier on him but they usually recover fast anyway so it could be nothing to worry about by tomorrow.

Were you told take it easy on the exercise for the first few days?
I'd be thinking an hours brisk walk would be too much for the first day or two, giving just a little gentle exercise - especially if he is on pain meds still.

TFP

they did say to go easy on the exercise for the first few days, but to be honest a hours walk on the leash is light exercise for my fella !!!

I will try him with a bit of chicken and rice or lambs kidney and rice (that is his fav!!!)

Toulouse

Really, an hours exercise is too much for a post op dog. I'd leave it for a few days before you attempt that. The wound has to knit. I know he'll be bouncing off the walls but maybe you could try teaching some tricks or doing some obedience with him to occupy him.

realgem19

Again, I very much agree with Beth on the early neuter (NOT to).
I have 2 years Vet Tech training in University and was a vet tech prior to old age and injury.
Different vets have different training expertise and experience. Some vets are pet vets, there's agri experienced vets, theres friend vets (no offense) and there's, God-forbid vets that specialize in assisting reputable breeders.
Although I am in States there is huge pet business here (not saying your vet is looking for business), and they are finding BIG problems in shelter dogs that are grown from pups that were neutered or spayed prior to a year of age. They neuter wee things of 8 weeks and sometimes miss parts (esp in female) which cause terrible problems even death.
Some sex hormones work with and influence growth patterns, including bone plate and brain development.
Again, behavior modification via early Training, not surgery (prevention of bad behaviors) is the very best way to get the very best pet.
The diseases and problems that are touted by many vets in un-neutered animals are grossly overated. Testicular cancer is not a common cancer, mammary cancer in bitches is, but is a late onset condition.
After her breeding years (if I do keep a quality bitch to breed), I have a bitch spayed. Have neutered or spayed any animals at 2 years of age if not suitable for breeding.
I do occasionally show a dog (I know that is not popular with many folks), and they cannot be neutered in breed show as original intent was to exchange breeding stock (although dog shows in US are pretty non-function oriented now, too bad).
So, I would go to puppy kindergarten and beyond (classes with other dogs are invaluable early age socialization), give puppy lots of exercise and let him grow a bit
before neuter.
If you want I can find you some web links on reputable Veterinary University studies on these topics, as with anything statistics can be used to prove any point if you use the right ones.
JMHO
Gem