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Strikes in the public sector
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26-02-2009 7:46pm#1Maybe someone can enlighten me about the strikes. The public sector are protesting a levy on their pensions and the possibility of job cuts, correct? A woman on the picket line stated that 'Why should we carry the can for the rest of the country?' on the news this evening.
The line the public sector is taking in relation to this confuses me. I have lost my job in the private sector and my partner has had to take a 5% pay cut in her wages. I did not protest as the company i worked for could not sustain its business. My girlfriend also sees that her company needs to rationalise in order to keep the jobs they have. My own pension fund is now in limbo as I am unemployed. I am educated but having trouble getting a job, any job in my sector. I would gladly work for less money rather than be unemployed.
With the current economic situation, the need for certain public sector services has diminished. So is it not better that we examine the services that can be downsized and also where money can be saved? I realise that the services targeted by the government are unwise in relation to education and healthcare cuts. However, I believe that the private sector has taken the brunt of the job losses.
Maybe im missing something, so the floor is open. How can they justify a stance like that given the fact that they still have employment? In the private sector, you dont have a choice. If your employer is no longer financially solvent, they cannot maintain their business. As the national debt spirals further out of control should they not take the hit? If was a public sector employee, I would much rather stay in employment and take a hit to my benefits then be out of a job.
I dont want to critisize the public sector unfairly, so someone should set me straight or at least argue the point because I think im missing something0
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No you're right to be confused - we've discussed this on a number of threads and I'm still bemused by the attitude of some of the service. The argument they should have been using today was to address the method of implementation of the levy - that it is a bit disproportionate in its cuts across ranks with the lower paid doing worse due to issues like tax relief. Instead though some trotted out the lines like you saw.I dont want to critisize the public sector unfairly, so someone should set me straight or at least argue the point because I think im missing something
I think a fair bit of it stems from the way the government responded to the economic crisis - they announced the pension levy... and that's it. That gives the unions ammunition to give the impression that the PS/CS sector is carrying the whole burden. At the same time, they re-capitalised the banks and let them off relatively easy. They should instead have implemented far more punitive measures and, more pointedly, also announced some further cost cutting/revenue generating measures to make it clear that the country would, alas, have to suffer.
The strike today should have just been about pointing out the relative inequity of how the levy was enacted across grades - by be being to seen kicking up a fuss about having to take any sort of a cut (whilst others elsewhere have, including my firm), they're actually doing the whole "divide and conquer" routine far more effectively than they think Cowen is doing it.0 -
Maybe someone can enlighten me about the strikes. The public sector are protesting a levy on their pensions and the possibility of job cuts, correct? A woman on the picket line stated that 'Why should we carry the can for the rest of the country?' on the news this evening.
The line the public sector is taking in relation to this confuses me. I have lost my job in the private sector and my partner has had to take a 5% pay cut in her wages. I did not protest as the company i worked for could not sustain its business. My girlfriend also sees that her company needs to rationalise in order to keep the jobs they have. My own pension fund is now in limbo as I am unemployed. I am educated but having trouble getting a job, any job in my sector. I would gladly work for less money rather than be unemployed.
With the current economic situation, the need for certain public sector services has diminished. So is it not better that we examine the services that can be downsized and also where money can be saved? I realise that the services targeted by the government are unwise in relation to education and healthcare cuts. However, I believe that the private sector has taken the brunt of the job losses.
Maybe im missing something, so the floor is open. How can they justify a stance like that given the fact that they still have employment? In the private sector, you dont have a choice. If your employer is no longer financially solvent, they cannot maintain their business. As the national debt spirals further out of control should they not take the hit? If was a public sector employee, I would much rather stay in employment and take a hit to my benefits then be out of a job.
I dont want to critisize the public sector unfairly, so someone should set me straight or at least argue the point because I think im missing something
its easy ****bag , when you visit the john , what you leave floating in the bowl doesnt have as pleasing an odour as your public sector counter parts0 -
The line the public sector is taking in relation to this confuses me.
It's simple, they are living in cloud cuckoo land. Their idea of sharing the pain is no job cuts or pay cuts, only tax increases. Of course the people marching today hardly pay any tax, as they are the lower paid, so what they are really saying is that someone else should pay.
Good luck with the job hunt.0 -
No you're right to be confused - we've discussed this on a number of threads and I'm still bemused by the attitude of some of the service. The argument they should have been using today was to address the method of implementation of the levy - that it is a bit disproportionate in its cuts across ranks with the lower paid doing worse due to issues like tax relief. Instead though some trotted out the lines like you saw.
I think a fair bit of it stems from the way the government responded to the economic crisis - they announced the pension levy... and that's it. That gives the unions ammunition to give the impression that the PS/CS sector is carrying the whole burden. At the same time, they re-capitalised the banks and let them off relatively easy. They should instead have implemented far more punitive measures and, more pointedly, also announced some further cost cutting/revenue generating measures to make it clear that the country would, alas, have to suffer.
The strike today should have just been about pointing out the relative inequity of how the levy was enacted across grades - by be being to seen kicking up a fuss about having to take any sort of a cut (whilst others elsewhere have, including my firm), they're actually doing the whole "divide and conquer" routine far more effectively than they think Cowen is doing it.
That kinda clears part of it up. So its more of a disagreement with how the levy is being implemented. I can understand on one level. Yet at the same time, how can such a large amount of employed people feel angered when there are so many people made redundant without very little to come back with. Their pickets and protests have now affected those people by shutting down all of the social welfare offices and setting back the payments to former hard working people now claiming back their own PRSI payments?
My section was down sized before the company closed. My work load doubled, I didnt complain because I could see the bigger picture. I put in a bigger effort because I knew we would all be in the same boat as a workforce. Yet when my ship sinks I see others still afloat who are complaining about the conditions onboard. I had to accept the hard circumstance and deal with it as I still am and so are so many others. So when I watch, read and hear about people with still so much to play with, fighting the decisions so many of us had no choice but to accept. Am I wrong to feel disappointed?0 -
That kinda clears part of it up. So its more of a disagreement with how the levy is being implemented. I can understand on one level. Yet at the same time, how can such a large amount of employed people feel angered when there are so many people made redundant without very little to come back with. Their pickets and protests have now affected those people by shutting down all of the social welfare offices and setting back the payments to former hard working people now claiming back their own PRSI payments?
My section was down sized before the company closed. My work load doubled, I didnt complain because I could see the bigger picture. I put in a bigger effort because I knew we would all be in the same boat as a workforce. Yet when my ship sinks I see others still afloat who are complaining about the conditions onboard. I had to accept the hard circumstance and deal with it as I still am and so are so many others. So when I watch, read and hear about people with still so much to play with, fighting the decisions so many of us had no choice but to accept. Am I wrong to feel disappointed?
You're right to feel disappointed, but more so by your own previous employer and not by the striking public sector. Just because you were unable to strike (for various reasons), you can't really throw your toys out of the pram when others are.
Ioxy explained it very well. The whole purpose of the strike was really to point out how unfairly meeted out the levy is. Unfortunately, there are some people working in the service that are not particularly broad-minded when it comes to the situation we're all facing. There are also some that treated today as a chance to have a free day off, which disgusted me to be honest. If they had disagreed with the union decision, they should reconsider being in the union.
However, the government is also being very stubborn by not accepting that the levy is entirely unfair. Those on higher wages will pay less relative to the level of their take-home pay than those on a lower wage. They are also entitled to more money back as it is a pension payment taken off gross pay.
Finally, the main part that sticks in everyones craw is the lack of accountability and punishment for those that are high up in the banking sector, runaway developers (as in those that were allowed to build whatever wherever), etc. etc.0 -
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A bit of that would be unions stoking the fires, reminding them of all the perceived slights against them over the years - you'll notice there's certain key phrases a lot of them employ.That kinda clears part of it up. So its more of a disagreement with how the levy is being implemented. I can understand on one level. Yet at the same time, how can such a large amount of employed people feel angered when there are so many people made redundant without very little to come back with. Their pickets and protests have now affected those people by shutting down all of the social welfare offices and setting back the payments to former hard working people now claiming back their own PRSI payments?
For instance, "We never saw the Celtic tiger" would be one of them - the perception that the private sector was creaming it, whilst they were left behind. Some did, some didn't and that's before you take into account the benefits of the public/civil service - but the idea is lodged in the head now that nearly all the private sector did better. There's a bitterness there (I work with the civil service, and I hear it from some, especially the more unionised members).
They also see themselves as the ground workers, the ones that prop up the civil service - there's an awful lot of anger towards those in management who are on the higher salaries. The fact that the levy disproportionately affects the lower grades makes them even more annoyed, it widens divisions.
The problem is that their complaints may have found voice in less troubled times. If this was a year ago, people might have been more sympathetic. Nowadays though there's constant job losses in the private sector - they're often aware of them but the reality of a job loss doesn't hit you until it happens to you. They're often in a bubble of sort so they now see it as : we never got the good stuff, but we're being asked to pay for the bad. Instead of seeing those who lost their jobs, they're looking at those who didn't or those who got awarded pay agreements (especially the banks who they feel got pay increases at the cost of the levy).
It's a bit of a moot point against the losses the government needs to recoup (and a bit of a false one) but I think that's a lot of what annoys them - the sad truth is that the bubble needs to be pierced, many need to realise just how much up trouble we're in, and that we're all going to pay in the end - yes, and that includes many of the bankers.0 -
A bit of that would be unions stoking the fires, reminding them of all the perceived slights against them over the years - you'll notice there's certain key phrases a lot of them employ.
For instance, "We never saw the Celtic tiger" would be one of them - the perception that the private sector was creaming it, whilst they were left behind. Some did, some didn't and that's before you take into account the benefits of the public/civil service - but the idea is lodged in the head now that nearly all the private sector did better. There's a bitterness there (I work with the civil service, and I hear it from some, especially the more unionised members).
They also see themselves as the ground workers, the ones that prop up the civil service - there's an awful lot of anger towards those in management who are on the higher salaries. The fact that the levy disproportionately affects the lower grades makes them even more annoyed, it widens divisions.
The problem is that their complaints may have found voice in less troubled times. If this was a year ago, people might have been more sympathetic. Nowadays though there's constant job losses in the private sector - they're often aware of them but the reality of a job loss doesn't hit you until it happens to you. They're often in a bubble of sort so they now see it as : we never got the good stuff, but we're being asked to pay for the bad. Instead of seeing those who lost their jobs, they're looking at those who didn't or those who got awarded pay agreements (especially the banks who they feel got pay increases at the cost of the levy).
It's a bit of a moot point against the losses the government needs to recoup (and a bit of a false one) but I think that's a lot of what annoys them - the sad truth is that the bubble needs to be pierced, many need to realise just how much up trouble we're in, and that we're all going to pay in the end - yes, and that includes many of the bankers.
im actually surprised at the level of support the protestors are getting considering how obnoxious thier possition is but when i think about it some more i realise that this is a small country and while the majority of people dont work in the public sector and therefore dont enjoy the benefits that brings , almost everyone in this country has family beit immediete or extended who do work in the public sector , irish people like to keep money in the family so the size of the marches and the level of support is a case of self interest beit personal or by proxy0 -
I have much more sympathy for the public sector then I would the financial services sector. I wouldnt class this as the private sector as they exist with a different set of principles to ordinary businesses. Different legislation governs them, different economic influences. I would direct alot of my disappointment towards that sector but at the same time, we as the users of this system should now have ability to reform it, either through our demands as voters in a 'democratic' society or through our demands as customers in a capitalist society. I fully admit that I as a bank user, placed my money in their trust without asking questions. Therefore although I would like to see the higher echelons of the banking community held accountable for their closed door tactics. I have to say that my own attitude towards my earnings has been blas é both with whom I trust to hold it and how I have spent some of it.
I think we need to change our attitude towards money and how we use it. Now that the lights are on, all I can see in the media and on the street is pointed fingers. Personally I always like to point the finger at myself first. I did nothing when the times were good in order to prepare for when things got tough, other than what we all did as workers. Invested in pensions, held savings and trusted in institutions with lively hoods but I never questioned that system.
I agree that to an individual employee in the public sector, there may not have been many benefits during earlier years. At the same time the public sector as a whole expanded to meet the needs of a growing population with more disposable income. With the situation as it is, the logical option seems to be to match the services with the market. From what I see, it simply means reducing the sector and cutting costs. Which isnt easy since so many areas have been mismanaged for so long. As a private sector worker at the mid/lower end of the pay scale, apart from more actual opportunity, I saw little in the way of the boom times. In fact, compared to my parents generation I saw more hardship attaining basic needs. Difficulties for me as a first time home buyer, high rates of motor insurance and tax, pressures on the health system have directly affected me (like everyone Id say). Pressure to become part of the industrialised Ireland from both the education system and the employment system. For me the Celtic tiger was simply more opportunity but within the same crappy system0 -
hi all, i belive most of the public sector workers do a good job.
how ever it would have been worst if 10000 or more had to have lost there jobs, i think they should NOT strike and go back to work,i lost my job in september and am living on 243 euro a week with 3 young kids and i know there are thousands like me, I HAVE NO PITTY ON THEM, SORRY0 -
This is fantastic.
There was me thinking I was alone in this opinion.
Thousands of people are losing their jobs left right and centre and these Public servants are complaining about fecking percentage reduction?
Unbelievable. These guys has jobs for life effectively.
I have seen them on the news complaining that they'll be down 70 Euro a week and that apparently they won't be able to make their mortgage repayments.
Either that of they'll really just be missing a bad night in the local.
Get back to work you ungrateful sods.0 -
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I was going to go to the Doctor today about a headache I that was persisting a few days. Than a friend of mine pointed out that some people have cancer.
I couldn't go to the doctor when my problem was smaller than someone elses. In fact I should be happy to have this headache and should tolerate further deterioration on account of somebody else having cancer.0 -
Euro_Kraut wrote: »I was going to go to the Doctor today about a headache I that was persisting a few days. Than a friend of mine pointed out that some people have cancer.
I couldn't go to the doctor when my problem was smaller than someone elses. In fact I should be happy to have this headache and should tolerate further deterioration on account of somebody else having cancer.
Great analogy-keep em coming :rolleyes:0 -
Unfortunately the public sector will get hit again with income tax increases later in the next budget. The public sector was easy pickings for the government to hit.
The fairer way was to increase income tax...then every person working and paying tax would share the pain.
It amazes me that many people would not join the public sector when the Celtic tiger was roaring..Why? Because the pay was sh!t . Now suddenly the public sector jobs are "Golden jobs with silver lined pensions"
Public sector workers had no choice in the pension that they have, a pension that they pay for.
Make no mistake this "Pension Levy" is nothing but a pay cut. Take that pay cut and add no wage increases for the forseeable future and then the inevitable tax increase. Now that is simply unfair.
The moral of the public servant has hit rock bottom. These are the people may protect you from theft, cut you from a mangled car wreck, restart your heart, take care of your sick mother, rescue you from your house fire, keep prisoners locked in prison, perform surgery....the list goes on.
These hard working people are now demoralised due to IBEC's whisper in the governments ear, they are broken because of the wealthy dealings with
corrupt banks.
Thanks for reading0 -
BroomBurner wrote: »You're right to feel disappointed, but more so by your own previous employer and not by the striking public sector. Just because you were unable to strike (for various reasons), you can't really throw your toys out of the pram when others are..
I take his point completely. Thats why im keeping my toys in the pram. I knew there was a better explaination. However, there is the enlightened opinions of some and then there are many on the picket lines who dont know exactly why they are there. I held up my hand and stated I dont know all the facts and wont fling mud. I just asked why. However how can you expect someone to support people who hold picket signs who dont know why they are standing there? I support peoples right to protest against something like a levy that doesnt go across the board. However, the way in which you do it, determines how much support and sympathy you get.
Public servants do a good job and entitled to that recognition. However to say they are all paid poorly isnt true. I went for an equivelant job work with the department of finance for almost €5000 more than what I was earning. I didnt get it but would have liked that security. Yes we all have to share the pain but I would rather share the pain as an employee
At the same time, the reason I started the thread was to get a clearer idea as to why the public sector is striking. Not to go out guns blazing. So yes the more counter points put up, the clearer picture I get, I am not aiming to be morally justified. I would just like to know0 -
Euro_Kraut wrote: »I was going to go to the Doctor today about a headache I that was persisting a few days. Than a friend of mine pointed out that some people have cancer.
I couldn't go to the doctor when my problem was smaller than someone elses. In fact I should be happy to have this headache and should tolerate further deterioration on account of somebody else having cancer.
...trouble is there are no trained doctors available, so you might have to live with a bit of a headache, most people have headaches at the moment, the people with cancer are dying :mad:0 -
I can sympathise somewhat with the manner in which the Levy will operate.
However, when we're expecting how many more job losses and reduced tax take, where do these people expect their continued wages and guaranteed pensions and guaranteed jobs to come from?.
I'm fortunate enough to still have a job, but there are no guarantees that I'll be sitting here this time next week with one. These folks pretty much have that option.
Also, as regards having "options" with my pension, my only option to match an equivalent pension for a Public Sector employee is for me to contribute 30% of my salary towards it.
With all respective sympathy, it's either the levy, or job cuts, I know which one I'd be plumping for.
Yeah, they're having it tough alright.0 -
The thing is though a lot of people are already feeling the pain - they've had cuts already because their employer couldn't pay up. Now you're feeling the first adjustment of your employer, but there's plenty more to come - we'll all feel pain, just the PS/CS will feel that bit more.johnnyrotten wrote: »The fairer way was to increase income tax...then every person working and paying tax would share the pain.
An opt-out clause would be interesting at this point alright - would you take it if it was offered?Public sector workers had no choice in the pension that they have, a pension that they pay for.
Unfair? Yes, it is and it's the same unfairness many others are suffering too. The fact that it's not all, doesn't negate the fact that it applies still to many in the private sector - unfortunately some of the unions are not really highlighting this fact and focusing on firms that are still paying out (for now). None of which changes the sad fact of your employer's finances.Take that pay cut and add no wage increases for the forseeable future and then the inevitable tax increase. Now that is simply unfair.
And they're also some of the people who advised the government on its finances, who arranged meet-ups with property developers for the government, who were involved in purchasing electronic voting machines, who used FAS to go visit Florida on a "science" trip - the list goes both ways. There's plenty of worthy work, but please recognise there's also much unworthy.These are the people may protect you from theft, cut you from a mangled car wreck, restart your heart, take care of your sick mother, rescue you from your house fire, keep prisoners locked in prison, perform surgery....the list goes on.
Yes, but so are many others - this pain is not limited to the public sector. That's why the OP posted here: they were baffled because the public sector unions give an impression that many others aren't suffering. The fact that your pay levy/cut was sanctioned by the government may give it the guise of a a State-sanctioned attack, but I really believe the unions need to more firmly recognise the State as the entity that employs them and measure its ability to pay them.These hard working people are now demoralised due to IBEC's whisper in the governments ear, they are broken because of the wealthy dealings with corrupt banks.0 -
johnnyrotten wrote: »*snip*
Make no mistake this "Pension Levy" is nothing but a pay cut. Take that pay cut and add no wage increases for the forseeable future and then the inevitable tax increase. Now that is simply unfair.
*snip
ummm....Fair implies the treating of all sides alike, justly and equitably...have you compared the majority of public service treatment to that of the majority in the private sector?- I haven't had pay rises in a long time, I think the public service has been handing our raises ever year for a while now (fair?)
- I got a pay cut this year in the private sector as did the public sector (so that seems fair)
- I have no chance of a pay rise for a long time to come, same in public service (so that seems fair).
- Oh yeah, I could be made redundant any day now in the private service (same as the pub...no, wait that's not fair)
I wouldn't strike even if I could, am glad of a job in these harsh times, I have no sympathy with the public service...they may have a valid argument about the nature of the levy but they've blown by acting like spoit kids.0 -
First out, I work in the Public Sector in IT and have done so for close on two years now, before that I've worked for Two Multinational IT companies, a pensions company and a commercial mortgage company. All in the IT support field. I've always had the aim of getting a role working for the government in some way shape or form. Mainly due to perceived job security and of course the fact that IT jobs are very thin on the ground in the West of Ireland and good IT jobs even thiner, hence the need to work for the government. I chose the job because it fitted what I felt was the best for me. I was also lucky enough to get it.
I little sympathy for those outside the Public Sector who believe ALL in the public sector are on such a handy number. If that is the case you should look to joining it. I've always had that attitude, if I dont like my current job and conditions I do what I can to get out of it, I think everyone should have that attitude.....get the job you want that suits your needs and ambitions no matter what sector it is in.
There is a perception amoung certain members of the Public Sector that the private sector have benefitted greatly from the "Boom". There is a perception in the Public Sector that they havent benefited from the "Boom". There is a perception in the Public sector that wages are in general lower for the same type job in the Public Sector than the private. There is a perception that the private sector aren't "feeling the pain" at the moment.
All very general comments and all totally untrue.
I personally cant understand or fathom why people are chosing to strike over this pensions levy.
If the werent earning enough money and werent happy with their job they should have moved. If the "low paid" people in the public sector cant afford to pay their mortgage for whatever reason they should ask should they have gotten a mortgage in the first place?
I think the main issue is the fact that the higher echelons of Irish Society seem to be "getting of" relatively scot free.
Certain people in the Public Sector need to open their eyes and realise that the Private sector workforce is getting decimated and soon the country will not be able to aford the wage bill for Public Services. I dont think they see that. Even the low paid (and some people in these places think 30K is low paid) will have to take a hit. I personally dont have any problem taking ANY hits so long as the cost of living continues to reduce....which it should to.
Apologies for the long meandering post. I have some strong opinions on this strike action and its merits but cant seem to put them in text properly.
Kippy0 -
Great analogy-keep em coming :rolleyes:
I think it works well.
One person losing a job should deter some other person from engaging in Industrial Action. Especially those who are low paid like the Clerical Workers.
I might not agree with the Action, but there the argument that because others were unable to hold on to jobs so those with a job should accept any cut with reservation doesn't stack up.0 -
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I think the main issue is the fact that the higher echelons of Irish Society seem to be "getting of" relatively scot free.
I think you are getting at the nub out it there. People are looking for a way to vent anger. For the Public Service this is the only way to do it since many are barred from joining Political Parties. I see today's action as more of an anti-government action (by their employees) than a Labour dispute. By withdrawing their Labour they might help speed the departure of an unpopular Government.0 -
johnnyrotten wrote: »Unfortunately the public sector will get hit again with income tax increases later in the next budget. The public sector was easy pickings for the government to hit.
The fairer way was to increase income tax...then every person working and paying tax would share the pain.
Do you really want to play tit for tat with the private sector?
200,000 jobs gone, and at least another 200,000 will be gone by the end of the year. That's over 20% of the private sector jobs GONE. Should we fire 70k(20% of the PS) public sector workers to "share the pain"?
Our total income tax is €13b. Do you really think we can plug a €20b defict by increasing taxs alone?
Personally I can't wait for the IMF, should be a bit of a laugh!0 -
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Be careful of what you wish for
Indeed. I would also point that same comment & its sentiment at the public sector as well.
The IMF coming in - god forbid it ever does - will at that point R-A-P-E and C-R-U-C-I-F-Y the public sector. "Why not the private sector?" I hear the public sector squeal. Because by then, there wont be a functioning private sector in this country. We're already well on the way to not having one - almost nobody's hiring which means very few new jobs being created, which means a stagnating economy. Speaking from personal experience, the job market in Dublin alone is virtually dead. And I'm in an area of expertise with an admitted "drought" of skilled personnel.0 -
For instance, "We never saw the Celtic tiger" would be one of them - the perception that the private sector was creaming it, whilst they were left behind. Some did, some didn't and that's before you take into account the benefits of the public/civil service - but the idea is lodged in the head now that nearly all the private sector did better. There's a bitterness there (I work with the civil service, and I hear it from some, especially the more unionised members).
Indeed. The Public Sector now makes up the majority of Union membership so they are playing to the grass roots.ixoy wrote:They also see themselves as the ground workers, the ones that prop up the civil service - there's an awful lot of anger towards those in management who are on the higher salaries. The fact that the levy disproportionately affects the lower grades makes them even more annoyed, it widens divisions.
I accept that but the Unions walked out when the proposal was put down. It sounds like they seen the proposal late at night and instead of thinking about them, they walked out. I haven't seen them answer why they left?=ixoy]
The problem is that their complaints may have found voice in less troubled times. If this was a year ago, people might have been more sympathetic. Nowadays though there's constant job losses in the private sector - they're often aware of them but the reality of a job loss doesn't hit you until it happens to you. They're often in a bubble of sort so they now see it as : we never got the good stuff, but we're being asked to pay for the bad. Instead of seeing those who lost their jobs, they're looking at those who didn't or those who got awarded pay agreements (especially the banks who they feel got pay increases at the cost of the levy).
Yep, but ICTU want to strike over Companies not paying wage increases? :eek:johnnyrotten wrote: »Unfortunately the public sector will get hit again with income tax increases later in the next budget. The public sector was easy pickings for the government to hit.
As we all will, well, those working for more than minimum wage anyway.johnnyrotten wrote:The fairer way was to increase income tax...then every person working and paying tax would share the pain.
Fair point, but if private sector numbers are dropping and public sector numbers are largely the same, what is a safe bet?johnnyrotten wrote:It amazes me that many people would not join the public sector when the Celtic tiger was roaring..Why? Because the pay was sh!t .
Yet as has been pointed out repeatedly the Public Service grew substantially?...trouble is there are no trained doctors available, so you might have to live with a bit of a headache, most people have headaches at the moment, the people with cancer are dying :mad:
Fair enough. You see what consultants get paid?First out, I work in the Public Sector in IT and have done so for close on two years now, before that I've worked for Two Multinational IT companies, a pensions company and a commercial mortgage company. All in the IT support field. I've always had the aim of getting a role working for the government in some way shape or form. Mainly due to perceived job security and of course the fact that IT jobs are very thin on the ground in the West of Ireland and good IT jobs even thiner, hence the need to work for the government. I chose the job because it fitted what I felt was the best for me. I was also lucky enough to get it.
I little sympathy for those outside the Public Sector who believe ALL in the public sector are on such a handy number. If that is the case you should look to joining it. I've always had that attitude, if I dont like my current job and conditions I do what I can to get out of it, I think everyone should have that attitude.....get the job you want that suits your needs and ambitions no matter what sector it is in.
There is a perception amoung certain members of the Public Sector that the private sector have benefitted greatly from the "Boom". There is a perception in the Public Sector that they havent benefited from the "Boom". There is a perception in the Public sector that wages are in general lower for the same type job in the Public Sector than the private. There is a perception that the private sector aren't "feeling the pain" at the moment.
All very general comments and all totally untrue.
I personally cant understand or fathom why people are chosing to strike over this pensions levy.
If the werent earning enough money and werent happy with their job they should have moved. If the "low paid" people in the public sector cant afford to pay their mortgage for whatever reason they should ask should they have gotten a mortgage in the first place?
I think the main issue is the fact that the higher echelons of Irish Society seem to be "getting of" relatively scot free.
Certain people in the Public Sector need to open their eyes and realise that the Private sector workforce is getting decimated and soon the country will not be able to aford the wage bill for Public Services. I dont think they see that. Even the low paid (and some people in these places think 30K is low paid) will have to take a hit. I personally dont have any problem taking ANY hits so long as the cost of living continues to reduce....which it should to.
Apologies for the long meandering post. I have some strong opinions on this strike action and its merits but cant seem to put them in text properly.
Kippy
+1Do you really want to play tit for tat with the private sector?
200,000 jobs gone, and at least another 200,000 will be gone by the end of the year. That's over 20% of the private sector jobs GONE. Should we fire 70k(20% of the PS) public sector workers to "share the pain"?
Our total income tax is €13b. Do you really think we can plug a €20b defict by increasing taxs alone?
Personally I can't wait for the IMF, should be a bit of a laugh!
This was a soft alternative to an all round pay cut. In fairness Pensions are a timebomb. The Govt. should have explained it from that point of view.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Without reservation, no.Euro_Kraut wrote: »I might not agree with the Action, but there the argument that because others were unable to hold on to jobs so those with a job should accept any cut with reservation doesn't stack up.
The thing that has to be remembered, though, is that the OP who lost his job has not only lost income for himself but also lost income for the public sector who depend on his and his company's taxes for their wages.
Therefore, him losing his job and others in the private sector and the general shrinkage in the economy means less taxes are raised and so consequently cuts have to be made.
That is why this talk of "fairness" is a bit bogus.
I find whenever this point is raised you get people objecting to the "them and us" attitude which I regard as putting the fingers in the ears and going "la la la".
The mental model that many people seem to have is that there's a magic money tree, and it is simply a matter of giving everyone, public and private sector, equal access to it and everything will be fine. That is not the case. There is no money tree. Money is made by the private sector which is then taxed and out of this tax the public sector is paid.0 -
A couple more things. The strike yesterday was a poorly organized one from what I can see with little support outside of the union doing it. Other members from different unions were told to use their "conscience" when determining whether to pass a picket or not. Such guilt trips are unneeded and cause nothing but trouble between people. The unions would have been far better off telling their members the reality of the situation and sitting down to try negotiate at this stage what further cuts are needed over the next two years and informing their members so they can adjust their budgets accordingly.
People in this country in general (myself included to a certain extent) have come to expect to be paid very very well for a relatively straightforward job which requires no qualifications.
Without wanting to upset anyone there are and have been countless people getting way too much money for very straightforward jobs. This has killed our competitiveness at all levels and our expectations have rocketed as a result. In the public service there is an attitude that someone on over 100K a year is earning way too much without actually seeing what that person does, their qualifications and experience.
There is also a WANT by certain people, Public and Private that big business men pay for the failures of this country, guys like Sean Quinn. Sean Quinn who employees thousands of people in this country. Dont get me wrong, these guys make mistakes but without them and their kind there would be very little activity in the private sector at all.
There is an attitude withing certain people in the Public sector (which in fairness has propagated down from the government, that no one wants to take blame for anything. (I am talking specifically IT but this is across the board) Consultants are used continuously when the knowledge is already within the Public Service. Implementing a major IT system for example usually results in blaming the consultants if it goes pear shaped. Some people in the Public sector think that they arent getting paid enough to take responsibility for those kinda things.
A lot of these people have NEVER worked in the private sector. I think this is where the issue lies. You really need to see how things in these areas work elsewhere. Dont get me wrong the private sector is far from excellent(obviously) but there is a general attitude amoung employees (and EMPLOYERS ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE IT) of keeping costs down wherever possible. It saddens me to say it but this is not the case (up till recently) of Public sector work practices.
I am very very worried about this country and getting more worried by the day. Sadly, I can see more and more strikes, less and less jobs.0 -
The OP is correct here in his assumption that some (if not many) Public Sector workers do not (or choose not to) grasp the absolute gravity of the situation and therefore, many truely do not know why they are on the picket lines in the first place.
I can only speak from experience here before any public sector ring leaders come in and start shooting me down.
I have quite a few friends and relatives who work in the public sector and while they all hate this levy with a vengeance (and the apparent inequity of it), they still accept that it is an absolute necessity as a first step in getting the country out of this hole. They all know people like me who are in far worse off situations, working in companies that are on the line, who do not have a guaranteed job next month, who do not have a pension because they cannot afford one, who have not had a pay rise in 2 or more years, etc etc.
Now, what bothers me most is that there are ring leaders (call them union reps whatever you want) in the public sector. And while they are not aggressively forcing people onto the pickets, they are being over zealous in their methods. They can use emotional blackmail and many other intangible methods to make workers feel like they have to do this.
Example, my mother works in the public service. She is almost at retirement age and all her family work in the private sector. I'm on the bread line, my brother was let go from his job after xmas, sister is working but her husband is out of a job now and I've another sister who has had to emigrate. Now, my mother feels the pain of the private sector every day worrying about us and our future and her grandchildren s future. She has seen bad times before and accepts that pain must be felt. That the levy is one such pain that people must endure. Like unemployment, like high taxes (to come), etc. etc.
So naturally she did not want to protest last Saturday. Yet (and I saw this), 10 missed calls and text messages on her mobile from various individuals in work on that day asking where was she, was she coming out to support them and all this crap. From these "reps" or ringleaders who are following some totally different agenda.
So why was the support so big on that protest and other pickets? 1. Because some people are genuinely upset about the levy and cost cuts BUT 2. Unions with their own warped and unrealistic agendas!0 -
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johnnyrotten wrote: »It amazes me that many people would not join the public sector when the Celtic tiger was roaring..Why? Because the pay was sh!t .
Ye got benchmarking with consistent increases year on year where the money that was obtained for this was from the 'Celtic Tiger'.
I think a fairer approach would be to benchmark back to where the equivalent private sector levels are as the ESRI say the lower levels of the public sector are 30% more paid than their equivalents in the private sector.0
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