Michael Collins - Why/How was he so gifted? Would he have been a good politican?

Dannyboy83

Throughout the various accounts you will read of Michael Collins, you will always hear that the man had a talent for organisational skills and he probably wouldn't have been able to live without an enemy.

What exactly made Collins so special in his role in Intelligence that no one before or since was able to replicate him?
Where did he acquire his special skills?
Civil Service?

Do people believe that Collins would have been a good politican, after the war?
Its known he was a workaholic but also had a wild side.

Do you believe that Collins would have taken the country in a different direction to how it has gone?

(Please Note: This is a discussion! I invite you to participate)

Iwasfrozen

Personally, I think alot of what is said about Michael Collins is exagerates/ good editing after all he was one of our founding fathers and leader of the oranization that went on to become our Defence Forces.
Try reading British accounts of Collins, you might notice some differences...

Manic Moran

What exactly made Collins so special in his role in Intelligence that no one before or since was able to replicate him?

You really think nobody has been able to replicate him? Or just that nobody has had a need to that you have heard of?

He had three things going for him. He must have been fairly charismatic as a person able to get people to help him out. He must have had good analytical skills to figure process the data collected. (Common misconception: Sources do not provide intelligence, they provide data. Only after the data is processed and analysed does it become intelligence). And he was ruthless.

The first two aren't all that uncommon in people, even today. Most good detectives probably have some skills along those lines. The latter is one which I think people don't want to accept in the romantic view of him. After all, he carried out a policy of targetted assasination and intimidation. When other countries or organisations in the world try that today, Irish people go "Oh, the brutality and uncivilisedness of it all." But it worked, and it continues to work in other places around the world. But who in the world is doing this sort of thing right now that you care about?

He just happened to be on 'our' side, so we take a more romantic, and possibly hypocritical view of him. If he wasn't Irish, we may not have even heard of him in Ireland. I'm not saying he was wrong or immoral, just that we see people like him every day in modern times, we just don't seem to acknowledge it.

NTM

Denerick

Collins is one of these historical figures who are irreplacable - one of the 'great men' of history. Few will doubt his immense personal presence. Practically anyone who has met him will attest to his overwhelming charisma and his ability to command loyalty. (The Treaty is another issue however) These characteristics should never be overlooked.

A few historians/political scientists have speculated that Collins might have become a military dictator after the Civil War were he to survive, mainly due to him being supreme leader of the IRB and his Northern campaign following the treaty (Tom Garvin I think, or maybe Michael Hopkinson) but the most important thing to remember that whats most important about Collins is that he died in his early 30s. His life in the popular memory is how it is portrayed in the biopic film. Not entirely accurate, but fairly accurate in how the public remember him, and in a sense, thats whats important because much of our modern Ireland traces Collins as the founding father, and for good reason.

Pride Fighter

He managed to raise £350,000 in a bankrupt nation ravaged by the after effects of the 1st WW as minister for finance. Such nous would have been invaluable had he lived.

Grudaire

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Try reading British accounts of Collins, you might notice some differences...

Other then accounts at the time, are there more recent accounts?

Mind you the Brits like Cromwell:D

Denerick

Pride Fighter wrote: »

He managed to raise £350,000 in a bankrupt nation ravaged by the after effects of the 1st WW as minister for finance. Such nous would have been invaluable had he lived.

Ireland was far from bankrupt after WWI. In fact we were infinitely better off than Britain, our largely agrarian economy saw ballooning prices during the war years and many farmers did very well for themselves. The 1914-1919 period for example saw a boom in house renovation (Such as rethatched or tiled rooves, new stoves etc.) More money was floating around and even industry in Dublin did well. Besides, we got a lot of money from the yanks...

DublinWriter

Collins worked as a clerk for a number of American banks in London's financial district, so he had an intimate working of how finance worked.

Collins, as minister for finance, set up the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which is still in operation now and is one of the main ringer of alarm-bells when it comes to government misspending.

In the area of intelligence (or humint as it's called now), Collins was a master of the art of recruiting and controlling covert resources, even managing to 'turn' Broy, a committed DMP Detective.

He was an effective military leader, single-handedly inventing the tactics of guerrilla fighting.

He also seemed to be a lot more personable and fun-loving than dower aul' Dev.

It's amazing to think that he achieved all he did and died at 32.

Denerick

Well maybe not infinitely better off, that was a figure of speech, but you know what I mean

Denerick

DublinWriter wrote: »

He was an effective military leader, single-handedly inventing the tactics of guerrilla fighting.

.

Lol, don't think so mate! Never hear of the Boers? We learnt quite a bit from them. Besides, the local Brigade and column leaders decided the outcome of the war on a national scale. The war was a localised conflict dependent on energetic young commanders like Tom Barry. Nothing really happened outside Dublin, Cork, Tipperarry, Clare and Kerry anyway.

FTA69

DublinWriter wrote: »

Jesus, that Neil Jordan has a lot to answer for. Collins was but one man, an exceptional man with many talents but this notion of him single-handedly running the Republican Movement is simply not true. He wasn't an irish version of Mao like. He was the Dáil's Minister of Finance (a very good one) and he was the Army's Director of Intelligence (also a very good one). The Minister for Defence was Cathal Brugha and the Army's Chief of Staff was Richard Mulcahy. Collins was a significant figure, but he wasn't the IRA's leader, either informally or officially.

In the area of intelligence (or humint as it's called now), Collins was a master of the art of recruiting and controlling covert resources, even managing to 'turn' Broy, a committed DMP Detective.

True, his network of spies, agents and sympathisers was truly a great one. But at the same time he didn't control every aspect of it down to a tee. Florrie O'Donoghue down here in Cork also had his own formidable network of intelligence.

He was an effective military leader, single-handedly inventing the tactics of guerrilla fighting.

Eh, no he didn't. Collins never led men on the field, the likes of Tom Barry were those who developed the IRA's tactics in guerilla engagement. Similarly Collins never "single-handedly" did anything, least of all direct IRA strategy which was the subject of a group leadership consisting of people like Liam Mellows, Liam Lynch, Frank Aiken etc.

He also seemed to be a lot more personable and fun-loving than dower aul' Dev.

He still had no problem ordering men shot dead while b*llock-naked in front of their wives. There's nothing fun-loving about conflict and war at all.

Similarly during the Civil War, Collins was largely sidelined within the Free Staters and relegated to a strictly military brief. It was the likes of Cosgrave, O'Higgins and Blythe etc who were running the show. Collins was good at what he did, but had he survived the Civil War he would have been manipulated completely by the above people who would have bought and sold him. I'd say had he survived he would have simply became a Free State General.

Phototoxin

Nothing really happened outside Dublin, Cork, Tipperarry, Clare and Kerry anyway.

my grandfather and great grandfather would disagree!

He was ruthless. I imagine he'd be sick of todays shoddy politics!

REVOLUTION STARTS TONIGHT!

Denerick

FTA69 wrote: »

Jesus, that Neil Jordan has a lot to answer for. Collins was but one man, an exceptional man with many talents but this notion of him single-handedly running the Republican Movement is simply not true. He wasn't an irish version of Mao like. He was the Dáil's Minister of Finance (a very good one) and he was the Army's Director of Intelligence (also a very good one). The Minister for Defence was Cathal Brugha and the Army's Chief of Staff was Richard Mulcahy. Collins was a significant figure, but he wasn't the IRA's leader, either informally or officially.

You ignore the IRB, which Collins was supreme commander of. Study his correspondance, he wrote like fooking crazy to everybody he could. The man ran the war (Along with Mulcahy) as much as any central authority can run a guerrila war before the advent of modern communications. He was de facto the leader of the IRA as he was the leader of the IRB. His organisational ability and tactical nous was second to none. Through the IRB he kept close personal relations with most commanders around the country. The nominal head of the army was Brugha, who was completely sidelined by Collins in the war.

Eh, no he didn't. Collins never led men on the field, the likes of Tom Barry were those who developed the IRA's tactics in guerilla engagement. Similarly Collins never "single-handedly" did anything, least of all direct IRA strategy which was the subject of a group leadership consisting of people like Liam Mellows, Liam Lynch, Frank Aiken etc.

Collins was leader of the IRB and therefore commanded great control over those leaders, though some were not members. There's no getting away from the fact that if historians were to pick one person for whom the war of independence could call its 'most important son', then hands down its Collins. He had his hand in every basket, he controlled what feasibly could have been controlled, and he pre-empted the moronic demented ramblings of Brugha, who was jealous of his control of the army (Such as Collins telling Sean Mac Eoin to go back to Longford after Brugha tried to get him to assassinate the British cabinet)

Similarly during the Civil War, Collins was largely sidelined within the Free Staters and relegated to a strictly military brief. It was the likes of Cosgrave, O'Higgins and Blythe etc who were running the show. Collins was good at what he did, but had he survived the Civil War he would have been manipulated completely by the above people who would have bought and sold him. I'd say had he survived he would have simply became a Free State General.

Good lord, how did you come to that conclusion? He practically ran the government until he voluntarilly stepped down to become commander in chief of the army, between the civil war and the treaty he launched an IRA campaign in the north and signed the Collins Craig pact. He was the Free State until his death. As CoC of the army he masterminded the 'conventional' campaign. True, Mulcahy and others did become powerful after his death, but they were secondary characters compared to Collins, especially O'Higgins. O'Higgins came into a world of his own after Collins' death.

DublinWriter

FTA69 wrote: »

Jesus, that Neil Jordan has a lot to answer for.

I'm very much aware of the gross historical inaccuracies in that particular film, so don't go tarring my response with the brush that someone who hasn't done their own historical research.

old boy

did he not re invent guerrilla warefare,

Dannyboy83

Denerick wrote: »

You ignore the IRB, which Collins was supreme commander of. Study his correspondance, he wrote like fooking crazy to everybody he could. The man ran the war (Along with Mulcahy) as much as any central authority can run a guerrila war before the advent of modern communications. He was de facto the leader of the IRA as he was the leader of the IRB. His organisational ability and tactical nous was second to none. Through the IRB he kept close personal relations with most commanders around the country. The nominal head of the army was Brugha, who was completely sidelined by Collins in the war.



Collins was leader of the IRB and therefore commanded great control over those leaders, though some were not members. There's no getting away from the fact that if historians were to pick one person for whom the war of independence could call its 'most important son', then hands down its Collins. He had his hand in every basket, he controlled what feasibly could have been controlled, and he pre-empted the moronic demented ramblings of Brugha, who was jealous of his control of the army (Such as Collins telling Sean Mac Eoin to go back to Longford after Brugha tried to get him to assassinate the British cabinet)



Good lord, how did you come to that conclusion? He practically ran the government until he voluntarilly stepped down to become commander in chief of the army, between the civil war and the treaty he launched an IRA campaign in the north and signed the Collins Craig pact. He was the Free State until his death. As CoC of the army he masterminded the 'conventional' campaign. True, Mulcahy and others did become powerful after his death, but they were secondary characters compared to Collins, especially O'Higgins. O'Higgins came into a world of his own after Collins' death.

This is ignoring the fact that he actually did run the show while De Valera was in America addressing government, starting the Irish League etc.

What I am most interested in, is how did Michael Collins acquire these skills?

I find it hard to believe he an innate talent for logistics and statistics, he must have had some type of training, somewhere, from someone.
He must have also had an immense geographical knowledge of the country in order to know what was and wasn't relevant in terms of intelligence.

Dannyboy83

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Personally, I think alot of what is said about Michael Collins is exagerates/ good editing after all he was one of our founding fathers and leader of the oranization that went on to become our Defence Forces.
Try reading British accounts of Collins, you might notice some differences...

Do you have any llinks?

I'm sure records of Collins at the time would no doubt be skewed for propaganda purposes, as is commonplace with every war.

Dannyboy83

Manic Moran wrote: »

You really think nobody has been able to replicate him? Or just that nobody has had a need to that you have heard of?

To be frank, I doubt anyone has had the chance, the timing or the luck.
If we consider some of the motivating factors:
- World War 1 (British Empire on the verge of bankruptcy and massive diversion of troops)
- Attempts to introduce conscription (galvanising nationalist sympathy)
- Huge US sympathy and support among the Irish population who were begining to become succesful, despite formal non-recognition of an Irish Republic by the US
- $5 million raised by De Valera on behalf of the cause
- Absense or imprisonment of many of the leaders or senior people, leaving a massive power vacuum.
- Availabilty of small arms
- Lack of development in communications, making it easier to disrupt British Administration and making Guerrila tactics more effective
- Lack of development in communcations, giving a large degree of autonomy to guerilla troops on the field, a necessity to develop independant tactics and support structure (equally argued as a disadvantage given the difficulty in adminstration and probably responsible for a large degree of the inactivity of troops outside the main five areas of fighting)

Many more, but you get the jist. I don't believe there has really been a comparable set of circumstances elsewhere, nor is it likely the revolution would have succeeded without the first 2 points in particular


I've heard of many revolutionary/terrorist/freedom fighting organisations who often cite Collins as a source of study and inspiration.
I don't think there would be many people between 1916 and 2009 who would have been in the same situation

He had three things going for him. He must have been fairly charismatic as a person able to get people to help him out. He must have had good analytical skills to figure process the data collected. (Common misconception: Sources do not provide intelligence, they provide data. Only after the data is processed and analysed does it become intelligence). And he was ruthless.

Excellent points.
Particularily about the ruthlessness, something I'm sure is commonly overlooked. On the other hand, Collins believed the English were terrorists and openly blamed them for the famine and the destruction.

What I am curious about is where he developed these analytical skills?
In West Cork?

From what I've read, if its accurate, he took British Civil Service examinations at 15, he was a clerk in a post office in London, a messenger and subsequently worked in an American financial institution based in London.
Not a great deal more prior to his induction into the IRB by Sam McGuire.

The first two aren't all that uncommon in people, even today. Most good detectives probably have some skills along those lines.

I agree here, but these people generally have intensive education in a chosen field.
How would Collins have been able to develop similar skills with little exposure to the area?

The latter is one which I think people don't want to accept in the romantic view of him. After all, he carried out a policy of targetted assasination and intimidation. When other countries or organisations in the world try that today, Irish people go "Oh, the brutality and uncivilisedness of it all." But it worked, and it continues to work in other places around the world. But who in the world is doing this sort of thing right now that you care about?

My caring or not caring is beside the point.

I wholeheartedly agree about the ruthlessness, in my mind its indisputable.
However, as I outlined above, there was genuine hatred of the English it would seem (presumably some bad experiences in London to boot? No doubt we will never know, but highly likely I woudl say) which eases the ruthlessness and heightens the revenge.

He just happened to be on 'our' side, so we take a more romantic, and possibly hypocritical view of him. If he wasn't Irish, we may not have even heard of him in Ireland. I'm not saying he was wrong or immoral, just that we see people like him every day in modern times, we just don't seem to acknowledge it.

No, I disagree here.
Off hand there is nobody who springs to mind, who seems capable of competently managing such a vast amount with such limited resources and (seemingly) limited education and lack of preparation, while doing most of it covertly.

There are various propaganda of leaders such as Mussolinin working from dawn until midnight.
In Collins case, its not exactly like the man was able to delegate much of anything, especially when secrecy was of the utmost importance.

If there is evidence to contradict, I would be v.interested to hear it
He must have had a good chemist I reckon, plenty of amphetamines.

We have become so used to the incompetence and corruption of our modern politicians, its rare to see a stateman such as Collins. This is the tail end of the discussion and the reason why I believe Collins genuinely did believe that the Republic was a stepping stone to unity.
I think the man needed an enemy.

Manic Moran

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Off hand there is nobody who springs to mind, who seems capable of competently managing such a vast amount with such limited resources and (seemingly) limited education and lack of preparation, while doing most of it covertly.

There's a certain 6'4" Arab on diolisys I can think of who has been giving the world's greatest superpower fits for most of the last decade.

NTM

Sand

did he not re invent guerrilla warefare,

No, guerrilla warfare has been practised for millenia.

Denerick

Exactly, Spartakus is but one example in ancient times, but going nearly as far back as possible, the upper Nilesmen used to raid the Egyptians and disappear back into their own land... Loads of ancient examples

Daroxtar

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

What exactly made Collins so special in his role in Intelligence that no one before or since was able to replicate him?
Where did he acquire his special skills?
Civil Service?


Do you believe that Collins would have taken the country in a different direction to how it has gone?

Sure he was from cork and every body there is just gifted at everything,like. He didnt acquire anything, it was bred into his greatness from his surroundings.

He would have declared Cork as the real capital and started the de-centralisation process a lot sooner. Dublin would have been left to the english as a kind of gibraltar or reduced to port status, thereby avoiding future shenanagins from the DDDA.

He would have instated the boys of fairhill as the national anthem and got rte to broadcast the shandon bells at angelus time and finally he would have made everyone wear a red t shirt with a yellow star on the front declaring they were from the peoples republic of cork, which would have confused the black and tans as they wouldn't know if the corkonians were with or against them in the fight against the irish. Pure military genius, and corks last true rebel, pity ye shot him:):):)

pablomakaveli

I'd recommend reading Tim Pat Coogans biography on Collins. A very good book.

I reckon Collins would have been an excellent politician. He performed very well as minister for finance and in his intelligence role. He was charismatic and had a charming personality. He knew that Ireland would need different a different economic model than britain. For example he looked at economic models of countries like holland.

I think he would have been a great asset as a politician in the post-independence years.

luckat

What's all this about Collins having little education? Nonsense! He was an accountant, working for a company that was the ancestor of today's KPMGs and the like.

He was a brilliant strategist, and had the charisma to persuade others to follow his strategies.

I believe Ireland would have been quite different had he lived; he had a talent lacking in all, all of today's politicians, and 99% of Irish people: he studied the probabilities and planned ahead.

He worked out where he wanted to go, and drew a roadmap of how to get there, then he followed that plan and got others to do so.

Dannyboy83

Daroxtar wrote: »

Sure he was from cork and every body there is just gifted at everything,like. He didnt acquire anything, it was bred into his greatness from his surroundings.

He would have declared Cork as the real capital and started the de-centralisation process a lot sooner. Dublin would have been left to the english as a kind of gibraltar or reduced to port status, thereby avoiding future shenanagins from the DDDA.

He would have instated the boys of fairhill as the national anthem and got rte to broadcast the shandon bells at angelus time and finally he would have made everyone wear a red t shirt with a yellow star on the front declaring they were from the peoples republic of cork, which would have confused the black and tans as they wouldn't know if the corkonians were with or against them in the fight against the irish. Pure military genius, and corks last true rebel, pity ye shot him:):):)

LOL:D:D
I'll answer when I stop laughing:)

Dannyboy83

luckat wrote: »

What's all this about Collins having little education? Nonsense! He was an accountant, working for a company that was the ancestor of today's KPMGs and the like.

He was a brilliant strategist, and had the charisma to persuade others to follow his strategies.

I believe Ireland would have been quite different had he lived; he had a talent lacking in all, all of today's politicians, and 99% of Irish people: he studied the probabilities and planned ahead.

He worked out where he wanted to go, and drew a roadmap of how to get there, then he followed that plan and got others to do so.

This is what I'm asking.
Could you please explain what his education was?

From what I gather, he had a normal british style education until 15.

Dannyboy83

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I'd recommend reading Tim Pat Coogans biography on Collins. A very good book.

I reckon Collins would have been an excellent politician. He performed very well as minister for finance and in his intelligence role. He was charismatic and had a charming personality. He knew that Ireland would need different a different economic model than britain. For example he looked at economic models of countries like holland.

I think he would have been a great asset as a politician in the post-independence years.

I'm reading the DeValera book at the moment.
i have books coming out my ears at the moment to be honest, but I'll have to get the Collins book.