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The Brian Cowen Ard Fheis Speech Thread

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24

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    #32
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    nesf wrote: »
    If he follows through on his speech, delivers the new regulatory system, cuts in spending and rises in taxes then I'll be happy enough.

    We'll I won't, it is big on rhetoric and short on specifics.
    Still no commitment to Public Service or Government reform. No attempt to show leadership by cuts to TD's/Ministers salaries, pensions and perks. Nothing that would convince international investors taht they have a handle on this.


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    #33
    Alessandra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭Alessandra


    Trotter wrote: »

    Where are all the FF voters/supporters here? What do you think?

    I'd love to know how they managed to fill a room with FF supporters at this stage.


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    #34
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    nesf wrote: »
    Seriously you people have short memories, this is nothing compared to the crap we were in before they finally pulled themselves together and implemented the Tallaght strategy.

    Are you serious :eek:

    Haven't been near the magic mushrooms, by any chance? ;)

    Even Brian acknowledges that it is worst crisis, in an Ireland context, of our generation.


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    #35
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Hillel wrote: »
    We'll I won't, it is big on rhetoric and short on specifics.
    Still no commitment to Public Service or Government reform. No attempt to show leadership by cuts to TD's/Ministers salaries, pensions and perks. Nothing that would convince international investors taht they have a handle on this.

    My expectations for what he's capable of delivering is low. If he manages those three things he'll have exceeded them, which isn't much.

    Reworking the regulatory system is something that international investors will be looking very closely at. If he gets someone who has no connections to the Irish banking sector to head his new regulatory body and the Fraud Squad deals well with Anglo then investors might be more favourable.

    It's unrealistic to expect our bond prices to decline back to where they were in anything but a time line stretching years though, even if he does everything right.


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    #36
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    Last 20th September, he announced the state guarantee of the banks, he said he would make the banks that were being guaranteed, start lending to small businesses again to protect jobs.

    Today he is still talking about the same thing and no sign of him delivering on it and now because he failed to act, we are losing 2,000 jobs a day. If that isn't failure, I don't know what is...


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    #37
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    Alessandra wrote: »
    I'd love to know how they managed to fill a room with FF supporters at this stage.

    A lot of aspiring county councillors, still hoping to save their asses.:D


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    #38
    andywozhere
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭andywozhere


    Alessandra wrote: »
    I'd love to know how they managed to fill a room with FF supporters at this stage.

    Most of the looked bored shi*less.


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    #39
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Hillel wrote: »
    Are you serious :eek:

    Haven't been near the magic mushrooms, by any chance? ;)

    Even Brian acknowledges that it is worst crisis, in an Ireland context, of our generation.

    Oh, as a crisis this is far worse than the oil shocks of the 70s and 80s, but our public debt which is what I was talking about is in a far better position than it was back then.


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    #40
    acontadino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 335 ✭✭acontadino


    majestic speach by biffo.


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    #41
    Alessandra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭Alessandra


    nesf wrote: »
    Yes, hugely so. As a percentage of our national income our public debt is very small compared to what it was like in the 70s and 80s. Though it's going to deteriorate a lot over the next three to five years we're still better off than we were.

    Seriously you people have short memories, this is nothing compared to the crap we were in before they finally pulled themselves together and implemented the Tallaght strategy.


    That's all very well well but revenue is decreasing rapidly. I believe the figures are even worse than we are led to believe. We have very little progress made in terms of infrastructure in our health service and are now cutting expenditure in education and health.. If we had higher taxes during the boom and proper provision had been made for the inevitable we wouldn;t have to endure such hardship now.

    Now I'd be all for higher taxes like France if we were getting anything in return.. We're giving more and getting less in return. Tax at 50% will be hard to swallow.


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    #42
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    nesf wrote: »
    My expectations for what he's capable of delivering is low. If he manages those three things he'll have exceeded them, which isn't much.

    Agreed. But, "isn't much" simply isn't enough in current circumstances.


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    #43
    andywozhere
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭andywozhere


    new thinking? so inspired by breast cancer patients, cowen sanctions massive cuts in health spending! possibly not the best choice of inspiration?


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    #44
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    nesf wrote: »
    Oh, as a crisis this is far worse than the oil shocks of the 70s and 80s, but our public debt which is what I was talking about is in a far better position than it was back then.

    Yeah, but not for long. The outlook is truly frightening.


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    #45
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    nesf wrote: »
    Oh, as a crisis this is far worse than the oil shocks of the 70s and 80s, but our public debt which is what I was talking about is in a far better position than it was back then.

    Remember back in the 70's and 80's, a minister didn't have a whole team of media handlers, spin consultants and wasters around him. A minister back then did their job and didn't need a battalion of over paid hangers on to get through their working day. The amount of waste we are carrying now is nothing near what it was in previous decades.


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    #46
    RealityCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭RealityCheck


    nesf wrote: »
    Oh, as a crisis this is far worse than the oil shocks of the 70s and 80s, but our public debt which is what I was talking about is in a far better position than it was back then.

    Thats all well and good but that doesnt take into account the astronomical private debts that the ordinary people are faced with. This limits what the government can do.


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    #47
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    andywozhere wrote: »
    new thinking? so inspired by breast cancer patients, cowen sanctions massive cuts in health spending! possibly not the best choice of inspiration?

    He obviously wasn't that impressed with them when he allowed the reversal of the decision to give lifesaving cancer vaccines to shchoolchildren.


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    #48
    juuge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 792 ✭✭✭juuge


    andywozhere wrote: »
    new thinking? so inspired by breast cancer patients, cowen sanctions massive cuts in health spending! possibly not the best choice of inspiration?

    Yeah ! Cutting health spending while maintaining an expensive and useless bunch of junior ministers and ministers of state that should be f**ked out into the real world. Jaysus! Fianna Fail have to go !


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    #49
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    RealityCheck wrote: »
    Thats all well and good but that doesnt take into account the astronomical private debts that the ordinary people are faced with. This limits what the government can do.

    Indeed it does which is part of why I think this crisis will be worse than the ones of the 70s and 80s. The public finances are in a better position (which isn't saying much) but the broader economic picture is worse in many ways especially in that the problems in many of our main export markets are just as serious as ours.

    And Darragh29 we had plenty of crap politicians back then too.


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    #50
    RealityCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭RealityCheck


    Alessandra wrote: »
    That's all very well well but revenue is decreasing rapidly. I believe the figures are even worse than we are led to believe. We have very little progress made in terms of infrastructure in our health service and are now cutting expenditure in education and health.. If we had higher taxes during the boom and proper provision had been made for the inevitable we wouldn;t have to endure such hardship now.

    Now I'd be all for higher taxes like France if we were getting anything in return.. We're giving more and getting less in return. Tax at 50% will be hard to swallow.

    That is all very true. The vicious circle is spiralling out of control. The problem is that by the time Brian Lenihan raises taxes the gap in spending will be almost unsurmountable. They need to act Now not after the local elections and Lisbon 2. If we let the figures get much bigger we will be absolute junk and nobody will lend to us. We simply cannot let the predicted deficit get any bigger.


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    #51
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    A thoroughly uninspiring speech in content and delivery...who writes these things ?

    One very obvious element of the Governance thing would be to maintain the Politicians Pay and Conditions,but instead to double the representation level.

    The Dàil should consist of no more than 83 Members and the Seanad 20.

    Additionally far more Parliamentary business should be done via all-party Committee with only the most contentious of stuff actually taking up the very valuable time of Parliament.
    The entire concept of Minister for State is totally unnecessary and should cease forthwith.
    The recruitment of high profile "Faces" to head up quasi political bodies such as the HSE needs to be more transparent and the reasoning behind it fully researched BEFORE contracts are entered into.

    I am mindful here of the current HSE situation where the position of Prof Drumm is now a dei-facto bulkhead between the Citizenry and an elected and duly appointed Minister.
    Mary Harney in her current role is surely potentially open to charges of professional negligence in relation to many aspects of the Health brief but the ever present presence of Prof Drumm in some role or other keeps the Minister insulated.

    This situation cannot continue for ever and it requires serious consideration as to whether it is to become overall Govermental Policy or simply a one-off in this case.

    However as tonight shows,there remains a vast gulf in what the Political establishment are prepared to do and what they are REQUIRED to do in order to prevent the collapse of the country.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #52
    Faster Doudle
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Faster Doudle


    A pathetically bland speech from Biffo tonight. I just hope the people watching didn't fall for his any of his bull. I think he needed to deliver a great speech for the sake of his political career and he totally failed in that regard. He blamed the banks for the state of the economy as if the government has absolutely nothing to do with the position we now find ourselves in. I think the Irish people deserve a goverment that stands by its actions and admits its mistakes. The current FF crop are a bunch of useless chancers and the only silver lining to Irelands current situation is that it has the potential to ruin Fianna Fail for good.


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    #53
    Alessandra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭Alessandra


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    However as tonight shows,there remains a vast gulf in what the Political establishment are prepared to do and what they are REQUIRED to do in order to prevent the collapse of the country.

    Well said


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    #54
    eoinbn
    Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭eoinbn


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    However as tonight shows,there remains a vast gulf in what the Political establishment are prepared to do and what they are REQUIRED to do in order to prevent the collapse of the country.

    Lets be fair. If the parties did that needs to be done the people wouldn't accept it.


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    #55
    Alessandra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭Alessandra


    eoinbn wrote: »
    Lets be fair. If the parties did that needs to be done the people wouldn't accept it.

    Maybe so. But people would respond better to decisive leadership where hardship was endured on an equal level based on capacity to contribute.


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    #56
    RealityCheck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭RealityCheck


    eoinbn wrote: »
    Lets be fair. If the parties did that needs to be done the people wouldn't accept it.

    But if they dont do what is required we will have to accept much worse down the line. The goverment have been very ineffective at conveying this point. I mean if they cant cut €2 billion with everyone knowing how screwed we are well I dont know where the other €18 billion plus is going to come from:confused:.


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    #57
    eoinbn
    Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭eoinbn


    Alessandra wrote: »
    Maybe so. But people would respond better to decisive leadership where hardship was endured on an equal level based on capacity to contribute.

    That's just not possible, some people are going to get screwed. You can't go around and micro-manage everyones wages. There are probably people out there on 25k that would have no trouble paying the pension levy(flat sharing, no mortage/car/kids), while someone on 40k might have all those expenses and struggle.


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    #58
    Alessandra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭Alessandra


    eoinbn wrote: »
    That's just not possible, some people are going to get screwed. You can't go around and micro-manage everyones wages. There are probably people out there on 25k that would have no trouble paying the pension levy(flat sharing, no mortage/car/kids), while someone on 40k might have all those expenses and struggle.

    Well I am talking more about equitable cuts for the likes of politicians and high ranking civil servants. As it is, the pension levy introduced has about 3% difference between those on 40k and those on double that..

    Those middle of the road earners are being unjustly targeted while those at the top are not reflecting their capacity to contribute.

    Regarding the single people versus married with kids, there are tax credits already in place for those married and those single. Married people will have 2 people earning(be that employment or dole), childrens allowance etc.


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    #59
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    So are we having a mini budget then? It sounded like it.


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    #60
    Alessandra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,276 ✭✭✭Alessandra


    mike65 wrote: »
    So are we having a mini budget then? It sounded like it.

    Something must happen soon because the talk about it is wasting us money by the day.


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    #61
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    juuge wrote: »
    Yeah ! Cutting health spending while maintaining an expensive and useless bunch of junior ministers and ministers of state that should be f**ked out into the real world.
    But, he can't - he simply hasn't the standing or authority within the party to get the necessary changes through. Without making those changes he cannot get the rest of the country to support tough measures, either.
    juuge wrote: »
    Fianna Fail have to go !
    +1
    RealityCheck wrote: »
    That is all very true. The vicious circle is spiralling out of control. The problem is that by the time Brian Lenihan raises taxes the gap in spending will be almost unsurmountable. They need to act Now not after the local elections and Lisbon 2. If we let the figures get much bigger we will be absolute junk and nobody will lend to us. We simply cannot let the predicted deficit get any bigger.
    Agree. It appears that he's trying to stall until after the local elections in the forlorn hope that that will make it easier for FF candidates. I must be wrong, surely. He couldn't think we're that stupid, could he?


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