Not Happy with this

PCPhoto

Seriously ...... why do people say things like this :


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055500212

Quite simply you get what you pay for.

Ricky91t

I thought this was just a wasted rant,but seriously that stupid,If they want all the images they pay the full price,He/she was nice enough to give them €1300 off as they couldn't afford it.Also 20 pics would be plenty for framing and hanging round the house so i wouldn't even offer my help to them

challengemaster

Should have hired someone they can afford...

Maybe that guy who was doing them for 350€...but she may have to argue with his mother first! :pac:

sasar

challengemaster wrote: »

Maybe that guy who was doing them for 350€...but she may have to argue with his mother first! :pac:

lol

Morrisseeee

Oh no not another one !

Photography + Wedding + Forum = Angry-People/Thread

Everytime I see a Wedding thread, it just explodes !

whitetea

Looks like everybody is looking for a deal... Seems like a good photographer is a cheap one and all the rest doesn't matter.

Carrigman

His cheapest package was €3,000?

Good grief.

I can't imagine too much business going his way in future given the economic times we live in.

PCPhoto

carrigman .... I guess even if he gets 20 weddings a year .... he's earnin a decent amount.

auditek923

so you think its reasonable for a couple to pay 1700 euro and recieve 20 unframed , no album prints in a plastic bag

PCPhoto

the couple didnt pay for the cheapest package !!!

if they knew they couldnt afford the photographer why hire him/her ? I'm sure theres plenty of other professional photographers willing to work with couples on a budget - and agree what the client receives.

How can they feel upset - they were given 20prints (possibly good quality large prints) and a CD of images which they can email to their friends and family that couldnt make it to the wedding.

In short - they didnt pay for the cheapest package so they didnt receive the cheapest package (or did they ?)

auditek923

no the slideshow can not be emailed or accesed on a dvd player,it can only be viwed on a pc. we where not told about prices till after the wedding and did know it would be so expensive . if we had we would of booked a different photgrapher. we went over budget , then lost our jobs before we had the 3000 paid. thats why we only got 1700 paid off. we then recieved 20 prints in a plastic bag ffs !

artyeva

Carrigman wrote: »

His cheapest package was €3,000?

Good grief.

I worked for a speciaist wedding photgrapher in 2001/2002 and he was charging €3500 for his cheapest package at the time.

CabanSail

As I said in the other thread, it looks like you have not done your research. Normally people would arrange a package they are happy with prior to the wedding rather than having an open ended deal where you are unsure of the costs.

You knew the normal package offered was €3000, you have a reduced package for €1700 with reduced product. So now you are proposing to steal the work which you have not paid for.

PCPhoto

something isnt right ?

you never discussed how much your photographer would cost before the wedding ? did you have a budget set aside for the photographer ?

from what you said that you received 20prints in a plastic bag - definately doesnt sound professional.

How did you discover the photographer ? surely he/she was recommended by someone or you found him/her online ? so you must have seen samples of his/her work before the actual wedding ?

Personally I think you need to sit down and talk to the photographer and discuss why you are unhappy.....maybe the photographer might be willing to help you feel happier.

new=user

auditek923 wrote: »

no the slideshow can not be emailed or accesed on a dvd player,it can only be viwed on a pc. we where not told about prices till after the wedding and did know it would be so expensive . if we had we would of booked a different photgrapher. we went over budget , then lost our jobs before we had the 3000 paid. thats why we only got 1700 paid off. we then recieved 20 prints in a plastic bag ffs !

€300 or €3000?

So would I be right in thinking that you hired the photographer at €3000 and had only €1700 paid before becomming unemployed?

Did you discuss payment options or a downgrade with the photographer? Did you make the photographer aware of the situation?

I'm not 100% sure I understand what has happened, it appears its something like you booked a photographer for their €3,000 package then became unemployed and had only paid €1700 of the total cost. The photographer then presented you with 20 prints and a selection of shots on digital media.

Now if this is correct I'm curious about the bit we're missing here. What transpired between client and photographer between booking, unemployment, payment, wedding and post wedding.

CabanSail

auditek923 wrote: »

no the slideshow can not be emailed or accesed on a dvd player,it can only be viwed on a pc. we where not told about prices till after the wedding and did know it would be so expensive . if we had we would of booked a different photgrapher. we went over budget , then lost our jobs before we had the 3000 paid. thats why we only got 1700 paid off. we then recieved 20 prints in a plastic bag ffs !

This goes from bad to worse.

It sounds like you are trying to blame the Photographer for your own mismanagement.

The fact that he has given you something after only paying part of his fee is very good. The fact that you have gone over your budget & then lost your jobs is not his problem tbh. He has to feed his family & pay the other people who have done work on your wedding. Now rather than be happy you have something you are proposing to steal from him.

If you did not get a firm price prior to the wedding that is YOUR problem. Try going to the supermarket & going through the checkout with a trolley full of goods & then only pay for part of it & see how far you will get. If you then attempt to take the rest I think you know where that will end up.

The Photographer has lost out as he has done the work & cannot sell the images to anyone else.

Phototoxin

While I personally think €3000 is rather expensive there should have been a contract before hand and that if they cannot pay they should be greatful with what they have.

challengemaster

It does indeed get worse as it goes on.

You're responsible for finding out costs before hand. Do you normally just hire people without finding out how much they cost?!

This is really your own problem.

mikeanywhere

Phototoxin wrote: »

While I personally think €3000 is rather expensive there should have been a contract before hand and that if they cannot pay they should be greatful with what they have.

Whilst I agree, a huge and I do mean a huge amount of photographers do NOT have contracts.

Ricky91t

So basically,
you hired a photographer but never spoke about the price,
He shot your wedding and began processing your photos?
Sometime in between he broke the news to you he charges money for the photos and it wasn't what you expected?
You then lost your jobs and were unable to pay the total amount?

TBH you're lucky you even got some photo's,the photographer was working with a €3000 budget in mind and you payed him just over half?If i was the photographer i would not be happy,you've basically ripped him off

And now you're complaining?!?I'd rethink what you're doing,If he heard you're trying to print his images without his consent which you havn't got the right to do,You'll probably be taken to court,and at the same time he'd probably try and claim the other €1300 off you,If i were you i'd be happy with what i've got and not go back to the photographer.
unless he is a very easy going photographer

nilhg

challengemaster wrote: »

It does indeed get worse as it goes on.

You're responsible for finding out costs before hand. Do you normally just hire people without finding out how much they cost?!

This is really your own problem.

A bit harsh, a proper professional, (and I understand we have one side of the story here) would give his clients a contract and a proper quotation/schedule of fees well before the event, and presumably also have had collected a significant deposit.

jhegarty

Ricky91t wrote: »

So basically,
you hired a photographer but never spoke about the price

If that is the case than there is surely blame on both sides.

gandalf

I'm getting married this year in France, we have hired a photographer who we met and discussed our needs. We know the price and we know what we are getting for our money. I have a full budget made out and there is no part I don't know what the cost will be. I am sure you didn't hire the caterer/hotel without knowing what you are getting?

You should have discussed the price before you committed to going with that photographer. He should have done that also. I am interested in why you didn't ask the price?

auditek923

Ricky91t wrote: »

So basically,
you hired a photographer but never spoke about the price,
He shot your wedding and began processing your photos?
Sometime in between he broke the news to you he charges money for the photos and it wasn't what you expected?
You then lost your jobs and were unable to pay the total amount?

TBH you're lucky you even got some photo's,the photographer was working with a €3000 budget in mind and you payed him just over half?If i was the photographer i would not be happy,you've basically ripped him off

And now you're complaining?!?I'd rethink what you're doing,If he heard you're trying to print his images without his consent which you havn't got the right to do,You'll probably be taken to court,and at the same time he'd probably try and claim the other €1300 off you,If i were you i'd be happy with what i've got and not go back to the photographer.
unless he is a very easy going photographer

he does not process the work untill all the money is paid . we paid 1700 of a 3000 package. we then told him about our jobs. i know we are too blame here too but i think for at least 1700 we might have had an album

Ricky91t

jhegarty wrote: »

If that is the case than there is surely blame on both sides.

But they've obviously seen his site,or been told the charges by a friend..
For one I can't believe(literally) that the photographer didn't tell them the price.

And two it didn't occur to the clients that they don't know the price and should check,I'm sure I'm different,But the first thing I ever do is check the prices then I ask questions and pay for the service

jhegarty

Ricky91t wrote: »

But they've obviously seen his site,or been told the charges by a friend..

Where did you see that ?

CabanSail

auditek923 wrote: »

he does not process the work untill all the money is paid . we paid 1700 of a 3000 package. we then told him about our jobs. i know we are too blame here too but i think for at least 1700 we might have had an album

Do you have any idea of the cost of putting an Album together?

As you have paid a bit over half of the package price then it's likely that the Photographer is still behind on the deal. There has been the time to meet with you prior to the wedding, the actual shoot time, travelling time, insurance, the depreciation of the gear, rent on their premises, post processing & printing costs. Now you want them to spend more money to do you an Album?

challengemaster

auditek923 wrote: »

he does not process the work untill all the money is paid . we paid 1700 of a 3000 package. we then told him about our jobs. i know we are too blame here too but i think for at least 1700 we might have had an album

You were lucky to get any photos at all. I've heard about people not paying up what the photographer asked for (after the wedding), they didn't get any wedding photos. I really don't think you've any leg to stand on here in trying to blame the photographer.

Carrigman

CabanSail wrote: »

Do you have any idea of the cost of putting an Album together?

As you have paid a bit over half of the package price then it's likely that the Photographer is still behind on the deal. There has been the time to meet with you prior to the wedding, the actual shoot time, travelling time, insurance, the depreciation of the gear, rent on their premises, post processing & printing costs. Now you want them to spend more money to do you an Album?

Frankly, the least I would expect for €1700 is for my twenty(!) photos to be in an album.

Depreciation, rent and insurance would be negligible as they are spread across all the photographers clients.

I have no idea what the cost per hour might be but let's say €50. Say an hour meeting the client beforehand, an hour checking out the venue in advance of the wedding, six hours on the wedding itself, three hours post processing: a total of eleven hours at €50: €550. Let's be generous and call it €800.

Processing and printing of twenty photos (we will assume they are 10x8): €60. Again, lets be very generous and call it €100. (I'm including the cost of the slide show which cannot be played on anything other than a PC which makes it well nigh useless).

OK, we will add in €100 for insurance, rent, depreciation.

Total cost to the photographer: €1000. (I think I'm being VERY generous here but, I admit, I am only guessing and would gladly like to know what a wedding photographer's hourly rate is).

If I am correct the photographer made a very nice little profit indeed and could easily have put the photos in an album for comparatively little extra cost.

paulkellypix

This is my response to the OP in the OT - BLOOD BOILING!!! :mad:

Quote:
Originally Posted by auditek923
the photgrapher did not even do the shoot, he sent someone else

What did it say in the contract you signed? Did the contract allow him to send another photographer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by auditek923
we did not agree on any packages before the wedding (bad idea i know)

You said it yourself - bad idea. Agree EVERYTHING with your photographer. In your defence, the photographer should have made everything crystal clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by auditek923
we both lost jobs after the wedding

Then you should be prepared to accept whatever concession the photographer offers you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by auditek923
we went over budget on wedding

Did you ask the hotel/florist/dress maker to take a pay cut?

Quote:
Originally Posted by auditek923
yes we paid 1700 euro (which should have least got us an album)

You got 20 prints - buy an album for 30 euro and make it yourself. The €3000 package probably included an Italian handmade Leather Bound album - why would you get this included??

Please take this photographer to the small claims court if you truely believe you were ffffed over.

I would love to see a photographer that has screwed someone over get their just rewards -but equally - ask yourself why you feel that you deserve more - given that the photographer has given you a €1300 discount - which is a 43.33% reduction!!

Paul Kelly Pix

Buzz Lightyear

Carrigman wrote: »

I have no idea what the cost per hour might be but let's say €50. Say an hour meeting the client beforehand, an hour checking out the venue in advance of the wedding, six hours on the wedding itself, three hours post processing: a total of eleven hours at €50: €550. Let's be generous and call it €800.

Processing and printing of twenty photos (we will assume they are 10x8): €60. Again, lets be very generous and call it €100. (I'm including the cost of the slide show which cannot be played on anything other than a PC which makes it well nigh useless).

OK, we will add in €100 for insurance, rent, depreciation.

Total cost to the photographer: €1000. (I think I'm being VERY generous here but, I admit, I am only guessing and would gladly like to know what a wedding photographer's hourly rate is).

If I am correct the photographer made a very nice little profit indeed and could easily have put the photos in an album for comparatively little extra cost.

If you are self employed and good at what you do then €50 is way too cheap for your skill. Any tradesperson who is self employed has to pay for everything themselves - unlike someone who does a nixer and gets a handy few bob extra. Self employed have to allow in their running costs for light, heat, fuel - staff costs, plus they dont get paid when they are sick or go on holiday. Self-employed are also entitled to make a profit !

What you haven't taken into account as well if that it takes time to get to a venue, which must be paid for as well. So your hour meeting the client now turns into three hours, checking out the venue in advance - probably three hours incl travel, a day for the wedding and ok he's working from home/office so three hours for PP. Thats just over two day's work. Now printing takes a bit of time, so that has to be allowed for as well - not just the cost of the ink and paper. As for putting the slide show together well that takes time too - irrespective of the playing format. If we were to include meeting the client to choose photogs - at least two hours with some clients plus travel, we could just have three day's work.
Now the album must be put together and delivered to the client.

This is all adding up to a bit more than your innocent 11 hours work. Charging a commercial rate of 75-80 an hour is about 2k, plus we have the cost of the album + prints + ooh a bit of profit. Then there's the auld vodka and tonic (VAT) at 21%. Suddenly 3000 does not seem that bad.

For those of us who are employed ( I was self employed ) 75 - 80 euro an hour seems like a milking parlour, but you have social welfare if you're made redundant, a contribution to a pension by your employer, and paid for your sick leave and holidays. You don't have to worry about employers PRSI or bad debt's when a client does not pay you for the time and materials that you have laid out for. As for depreciation, yes you can write things off over time but you still have to make the investment in the equipment and the professional range of equipment is never cheap. So when a staff member say's oops - someone has to cough up for the replacement and it's not usually the staff member.

Self employment has it's rewards - but it's not all a bed of roses.

Philip

Lionsden

Carrigman wrote: »

Frankly, the least I would expect for €1700 is for my twenty(!) photos to be in an album.

Depreciation, rent and insurance would be negligible as they are spread across all the photographers clients.

I have no idea what the cost per hour might be but let's say €50. Say an hour meeting the client beforehand, an hour checking out the venue in advance of the wedding, six hours on the wedding itself, three hours post processing: a total of eleven hours at €50: €550. Let's be generous and call it €800.

Processing and printing of twenty photos (we will assume they are 10x8): €60. Again, lets be very generous and call it €100. (I'm including the cost of the slide show which cannot be played on anything other than a PC which makes it well nigh useless).

OK, we will add in €100 for insurance, rent, depreciation.

Total cost to the photographer: €1000. (I think I'm being VERY generous here but, I admit, I am only guessing and would gladly like to know what a wedding photographer's hourly rate is).

If I am correct the photographer made a very nice little profit indeed and could easily have put the photos in an album for comparatively little extra cost.

Firstly, I am not a professional photography, nor do I think I'm a particularly good amateur.. however I also have an opinion on this. I think your review of the photographers in questions costs are rather simplistic. There is far more to it, than just doing the sums for the day. A couple of things you haven't factored in:

1. Tax. this is a professional business and I think I can safely say, the taxman will want his cut.

2. Staff. Wages have to be paid. Again, tax, insurance, holidays, and all the other bits and pieces that this entails, have to be paid.

3. Premises. This is far from negligible. This isn't just the rent on a premises for the eleven hours you claim the photographer put into this wedding. I'm sure the photographer keeps these premises full time. Theres also insurance on these premises, phone bills, heating, etc, etc..... Not cheap, believe me.

I could go on all night, but I think you get the picture. You also have to factor in that this is a full time business and there aren't events to shoot every day of the year. Lastly, after everything else has be paid, there is the profit. This is not nearly as large as you claim, and in fairness, the photographer is entitled to earn a living out of this. He's not just doing this to cover his costs.

The other thing you can't quantify, is his expertise. You could give his camera(s) to cousin Johnny to take pictures with, but I guarantee they won't be up to scratch. It's the photographer that makes a good photo, not the camera, as I'm sure you know.

As for the OP, the way I see it (and I'm sure we're only getting some of the story here), seems to me you've already spoken to the photographer, and this is what was agreed for the reduced price. Now you're trying to get a bit more on the sly. Oh and it's probably your DVD player thats at fault, not the slideshow.


Edit: Sorry Buzz, I seem to have duplicated some of what you've said. You hadn't posted this when I started typing.... I'm not a great typist either so it took me a while!

Fajitas!

Carrigman wrote: »

Total cost to the photographer: €1000. (I think I'm being VERY generous here but, I admit, I am only guessing and would gladly like to know what a wedding photographer's hourly rate is).

I wouldn't agree - I posted on a thread like this quite a while back, which you can read here, and it'll give you a breakdown of the time!

To the OP, this is what happens when you don't do everything out in the open at the start. Was there a contract to be signed?

I would find it difficult that the price wasn't mentioned. Count yourself lucky you got 20 photos, it's not his fault you lost your jobs, if we all went down that route, then why should you pay full fare for the bus? You lost you're jobs, it's not your fault. (Hint: It's not their fault either )

€300 or €3000?

So would I be right in thinking that you hired the photographer at €3000 and had only €1700 paid before becomming unemployed?

Did you discuss payment options or a downgrade with the photographer? Did you make the photographer aware of the situation?

I'm not 100% sure I understand what has happened, it appears its something like you booked a photographer for their €3,000 package then became unemployed and had only paid €1700 of the total cost. The photographer then presented you with 20 prints and a selection of shots on digital media.

Now if this is correct I'm curious about the bit we're missing here. What transpired between client and photographer between booking, unemployment, payment, wedding and post wedding.

If this is what happened, count yourselves lucky, tell the photographer to hold on to the files, and you'll buy them when you can.

Monasette

From reading this thread, it looks like the photographer has a good case for suing the couple. They hired him, got his services, and then refused to pay his fee - he may have turned down other bookings for that day where he would actually have been paid for his work.

If they had tried the same with the hotel or caterer, I doubt if they would get too far.

Zillah

Ahaha, oh God. Who the hell hires a photographer for a wedding without agreeing a price beforehand? I can't believe you have the neck to complain at this stage, you're lucky he didn't tell you to take a hike until he gets his full fee.

jhegarty

Monasette wrote: »

From reading this thread, it looks like the photographer has a good case for suing the couple. They hired him, got his services, and then refused to pay his fee - he may have turned down other bookings for that day where he would actually have been paid for his work.

If they had tried the same with the hotel or caterer, I doubt if they would get too far.

He wouldn't get too far without a contact with prices on it.

*Dallas

wot really annoys me in cases like this is the photolabs that let these couples reproduce the images.

My aunt recently went to a photolab and had pixie photos scanned and reprinted. they are blatantly professional images and the students working in the photolab didnt care.

by the OP's attitude in the forums you can see that girl doesnt care how many photographers she upsets or what law she breaks, i guarantee you she will still try and get the images reproduced somehow rather then just talking to the photographer.

stcstc

I do agree

the main culprits of reproducing stuff are the large chains of photolabs

most of the pro labs (me included) would not reproduce stuff for people if i have any doubts about copyright issues

the problem with high street labs, is generally the people behind the counter are not experenced in any of theese issues

Dades

*Dallas wrote: »

wot really annoys me in cases like this is the photolabs that let these couples reproduce the images.

It's hardly their job to enforce copyright on images of which they have no knowledge of their origin.

Also I have to say as a one-time groom the idea that you can't reproduce your own wedding prints is hard to swallow, and I wouldn't criticise couples for doing it.

AnCatDubh

stcstc wrote: »

the main culprits of reproducing stuff are the large chains of photolabs
<<snip>>
the problem with high street labs, is generally the people behind the counter are not experenced in any of theese issues

I don't necessarily disagree but I can definitely report on an experience I witnessed whilst in the photo store which used to be in blanchardstown shopping center (upper level).

Two ladies walk in with selection of printed photographs which were of a relatives wedding (son / daughters was my guess given the age profile of the ladies). While uploading my pictures to the lab equipment I overheard the conversation. There were a series of pictures - some were quite obviously taken by a P&S (perhaps a DSLR) but definitely snaps more than posed images.

The shop assistant quite rightly queried the better ones which had obviously come from someone who knew what they were doing (thinking a professional here) and on the back of the images she found an imprint of a stamp from the professional photographer. The female shop assistant immediately refused to do anything with the ones which were stamped.

The photostore in blanchardstown was a great place when it was open - very professional and knowledgeable people (and nice too which is novel in Irish retail of today). Having done business with them for many years, the above is a scenario that I would have come to expect from them. Fair play.

Thus my point is that when you put an image onto print medium and you are asserting your right as a photographer - give the mini lab guys some chance of knowing that the individual image is copyrighted and you assert your lawful right - that no one (mini lab guys or otherwise) should reproduce the specific image. Its a very simple thing really.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, you shouldn't have to coz the law is on your side but lets face it - times have changed. It's a simple thing to do. It won't stop your image from being illegally reproduced but it may deter some people and possibly educate others.

I'd suggest to be careful as to your imprint mechanism as you don't want your imprint to burn through to the other side.

CabanSail

Dades wrote: »

It's hardly their job to enforce copyright on images of which they have no knowledge of their origin.

Also I have to say as a one-time groom the idea that you can't reproduce your own wedding prints is hard to swallow, and I wouldn't criticise couples for doing it.

This is an item that needs to be considered BEFORE the event.

If you want to have a package that includes the right to print your own copies then you should negotiate that in the package.

You can still contact the Photographer and ask how much it would be to purchase the rights to the images.

*Dallas

some photographers will allow you to print from a CD. It is up to you as a B&G to ask for this as an option. if its not provided, then shop around for another photographer.

Just say I had a really nice image of a wedding i wanted reproduced much larger, i scan it to a disk and then get a photolab to blow it up.

More then likely the blown up image will be bad quality and will not look like the original photo. for any friends/family that see the image, they may think it was the photographer that did a bad job .. .

ok this might not happen alot but you run the risk of ruining a good photographers rep by doing these kinds of things.

Dades

CabanSail wrote: »

You can still contact the Photographer and ask how much it would be to purchase the rights to the images.

Of course you can, but to the lay-person the idea that the photographer you paid to take pictures can squeeze more out of you for the shots he took is tough. Of course if this is made clear before any cash is paid - then no probs. But I know of at least one couple who were oblivious to such a thing.

*Dallas wrote: »

ok this might not happen alot but you run the risk of ruining a good photographers rep by doing these kinds of things.

The photographers rep is more likely to be harmed if he looks for extra payment for the copyright to images a couple never thought he had.

I guess with all of these contracts, clarity is key.