15 Year Old Atheist...

Húrin

sink wrote: »

No, I said if god exists he should have a basis in natural science. God does not exist and as such has no basis in natural science.

That's a nicely circular argument. Since you have declared that the study of God ought to be part of natural science, and then declared that he doesn't exist, is that not a declaration that science has disproven God? Where are the scientists pushing this view in their work?

Natural science has so far failed to work outside this universe, so your argument appears to be only effective against religions which think that God's home is in this universe. Outside of the laws of this universe, our notion of physical reality goes out the window, so God's existence is not a physical question.

Wicknight wrote: »

That theology is nonsense? :rolleyes:

We can study biological life, alien or otherwise, galaxies and stars, light and space-time, particles and matter, wormholes and lasers.

So why has no modern scientists made any serious attempt to incorporate the Star Wars trilogies into the body of natural science?

What an utterly rubbish comparison. Is the existence of the characters of Star Wars a physical question? No, since Star Wars is just a film that George Lucas wrote. We are certain that it is fiction. We have no such luxury with God. Thus, if science was in any place to incorporate theology, there would actually be some scientists doing it.

You are placing a rather irrational faith in science, ascribing far more to it than it can offer. Science does not study things that exist outside this universe. There is little sign that it ever will, because outside of the laws of this universe, our notion of physical reality goes out the window.

So you are basically declaring that what science cannot teach us, we cannot know. Do you take the view that science has left all other traditional parts of philosophy in the dust?

Mickeroo

Húrin wrote: »

That's a nicely circular argument. Since you have declared that the study of God ought to be part of natural science, and then declared that he doesn't exist, is that not a declaration that science has disproven God? Where are the scientists pushing this view in their work?

Natural science has so far failed to work outside this universe, so your argument appears to be only effective against religions which think that God's home is in this universe. Outside of the laws of this universe, our notion of physical reality goes out the window, so God's existence is not a physical question.


What an utterly rubbish comparison. Is the existence of the characters of Star Wars a physical question? No, since Star Wars is just a film that George Lucas wrote. We are certain that it is fiction. We have no such luxury with God. Thus, if science was in any place to incorporate theology, there would actually be some scientists doing it.

You are placing a rather irrational faith in science, ascribing far more to it than it can offer. Science does not study things that exist outside this universe. There is little sign that it ever will, because outside of the laws of this universe, our notion of physical reality goes out the window.

So you are basically declaring that what science cannot teach us, we cannot know. Do you take the view that science has left all other traditional parts of philosophy in the dust?

You dont know it wasn't real, it was a really really long time ago and in a galaxy far far away. We know galaxies are real,this makes the odd's better than god's existence already :P

robindch

RHRN wrote: »

So I was wondering, is it something I just say out of the blue? Doesn't seem like that, but then it hardly seems like there's a specific occasion for saying it?

Difficult to know when to mention it, but something like a group trip to mass or some other religious knees-up might be a good time to mention it, or even something as simple as keeping quiet when grace-before-meals comes around. The main thing is to try as much as possible to avoid offending people at the start, since it's likely that at least some people will be shocked and possibly get angry with you.

But be thankful that you're in a society which generally tolerates heterodoxy without any real problems, and where families generally don't disown or threaten kids who choose not to subscribe to their parents' religious beliefs (see this rather awful posting on the palmarian church for an alternate view).

Other than that, well, welcome out into the fresh air

robindch

Jakkass wrote: »

So those who accept Christianity don't have their own conclusions?

One can argue persuasively that anybody who has acquired religious beliefs cannot, almost by definition, draw their own conclusions while remaining true to the spirit of the religion.

As a religious believer, one must either accept the beliefs as provided and thereby become a believer in good faith, or one must selectively reject them and become a believer in some similar, but different religion. I wouldn't imagine that most religious believers would see themselves in that second camp.

JC 2K3

Personally, my parents had not been taking me to mass on Sundays since I was a child, and religion isn't a topic that has ever come up much in our family, so at 16 when I actually became an agnostic/atheist, there never really seemed to be an opportunity or point to announcing it to them.

They gradually have come to know my views, and neither being very religious in a strict dogmatic sense, they don't care.

MrPudding

Húrin wrote: »

That's a nicely circular argument.

Sorry, but is this a christian pulling someone up for using a circular argument? Nice.

MrP

Zillah

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm willing to admit, that I don't. However, I unlike many of the posters here do not make it my business to criticise other faiths. I merely accept my own, and try my best to explain my reasoning behind doing so.

Ah, but you were initially expressing concern for a 15 year old who was deciding his own beliefs. We're not talking about me here, both you and he are deciding upon your position without seeing the full picture. Which paints you in a slightly hypocritical light.

As an aside, by choosing to be a Christian you are implicitly criticising all other faiths. They are mutually exclusive. If you are right then everyone else is wrong. You mightn't be loud about it, but that's merely cosmetic.

Dades

Húrin wrote: »

Science does not study things that exist outside this universe. There is little sign that it ever will, because outside of the laws of this universe, our notion of physical reality goes out the window.

Science does not study things that exist outside this universe because science can only speculate as to what, if anything, exists there. This is hardly a shortcoming, yet you seem to think this opens the door for the religious to place their gods there simply because nobody can show they're not.

Similarly when we couldn't see beyond earth's atmosphere - gods used to live there.

Dades

RHRN wrote: »

I know it sounds like I'm making a big deal of it, but as phototoxin, yes, one of my worries is being stigmatised. Granted, that didn't happen among friends but still I think it anyway...

Perhaps don't mention the "atheist" word when/if you do say something. They're probably not ready for that yet - perceptions and all that. :pac:

Just tell them that, with regret, you just don't believe in god. Let them know it's not a choice you've made - but a truth you can't deny if you are to be honest with yourself. How much you need to go into your reasons will then depend on how much pressure you find yourself under (if any) to change your mind.

philologos

robindch wrote: »

One can argue persuasively that anybody who has acquired religious beliefs cannot, almost by definition, draw their own conclusions while remaining true to the spirit of the religion.

As a religious believer, one must either accept the beliefs as provided and thereby become a believer in good faith, or one must selectively reject them and become a believer in some similar, but different religion. I wouldn't imagine that most religious believers would see themselves in that second camp.

That's all well and good robindch, but it excludes one possibility. Accepting Christianity could be the conclusion in and of itself. One has elected freely and upon observing Christian teachings in the Bible has decided that it is the religion for them upon thought and consideration. So I do think that this assessment you've made is rather inaccurate.

Or are all conclusions based on rejection? But then again that doesn't make much sense either.

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

What an utterly rubbish comparison. Is the existence of the characters of Star Wars a physical question? No, since Star Wars is just a film that George Lucas wrote. We are certain that it is fiction.

As opposed to what, the Bible, which we aren't certain is fiction :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure there is some where in the world where a group of deluded people argue over the "facts" of Star Wars. Yet surprisingly this isn't incorporated into modern physics.

Are you honestly arguing that if Lucas had said "Actually, all that happened", science would be under an obligation to try and incorporate it into physics?

You think because the Bible claims itself to be true, and a bunch of people sit around debating it as if it were, that should some how means something to science?

Húrin wrote: »

Science does not study things that exist outside this universe. There is little sign that it ever will, because outside of the laws of this universe, our notion of physical reality goes out the window.

Well a) you can't say it can never study things outside this universe, you lack the knowledge to know that either way.

b) If God actually existed outside of our universe you would not be able to say anything about him or even that he exists.

c) the only way you can say that is because people have claimed to have experience phenomena in this universe that they attribute to god, and these certainly can be studied.

Húrin wrote: »

So you are basically declaring that what science cannot teach us, we cannot know.

Yeah, pretty much.

And you are basically proclaiming that while science cannot ever explore outside of the known universe, theology can :rolleyes:

Húrin wrote: »

Do you take the view that science has left all other traditional parts of philosophy in the dust?

The majority of philosophy is not concerned with existence. But the branches of philosophy, such of theology, that are, yes it most certainly has.

I'm still waiting for you to give an example of a branch of philosophy other than science that deals with existence and reality that has made better discoveries about the nature of reality and what does and doesn't exist, than science has?

A bunch of priests sitting in a room imagining what God is like is not a good example by the way, any more than a bunch of nerds sitting in a room wondering how Darth Vaders suit works.

CDfm

thats a bit off topic and doesnt help OP

sink

Húrin wrote: »

That's a nicely circular argument. Since you have declared that the study of God ought to be part of natural science, and then declared that he doesn't exist, is that not a declaration that science has disproven God? Where are the scientists pushing this view in their work?

It would only be circular if science only used it's own texts to justify itself, but science relies upon empirical evidence available to anybody with the resources and the will, evidence is the prime mover of science not scientists/journals. You declare god to be a physical being who interacts daily with our little speck of dust floating in the cosmos, science studies the cosmos and everything in it and to interact with the cosmos god must have a presence here and so be observable by science. And no it's not a declaration that science has disproved god, it's a declaration that no evidence for god exists and as has been mentioned hundreds of times by now you can't disprove a negative. Scientists by ignoring god altogether are in fact endorsing the view that a supreme being does not interact with physical reality in any detectable way.

Húrin wrote: »

Natural science has so far failed to work outside this universe, so your argument appears to be only effective against religions which think that God's home is in this universe. Outside of the laws of this universe, our notion of physical reality goes out the window, so God's existence is not a physical question.

No form of study has led to any knowledge on the workings of reality external to our universe. 'External reality' can't be studied by any known method and therefore to declare any knowledge of it is being scrupulous with dishonesty as there is no danger of being proven wrong. I am ignostic in regards to any deist style idea of god so I am not going to argue it's merits, I am only atheist in regards to any god which is claimed to interact with our physical reality on a regular basis.

CDfm

jill_valentine wrote: »

- My dad was convinced I thought he was stupid.

In my household, it was pretty much the only thing we ever argued about, but we did it weekly. Whether it's right or wrong, it would have been considerably easier for me to keep my mouth shut until I moved out.

I know I shouldnt ask but did you?:)

jill_valentine

CDfm wrote: »

I know I shouldnt ask but did you?:)

Think he was stupid?

No, not for a second. He's my dad. I've never thought he was stupid, and even in our most heated arguments, it would never even have occurred to me to suggest it. He's a smart dude, my dad, and it was always weird to me that he'd ever think I thought so little of him.

I don't think somebody's stupid for believing in a God... I just think they're wrong.

axer

jill_valentine wrote: »

I don't think somebody's stupid for believing in a God... I just think they're wrong.

I think people that believe in a god are either afraid (of there being nothing after death so they need hope even if it is false hope), lazy minded (too lazy to think about it so go along with the flock usually because they were brought up as a believer) or illogical (considering some people use logic for the most simple of things - how they can throw logic away for the biggest things is beyond me).

OP, your best bet is not to make a big deal of the fact you don't believe - you will never convince a believer he/she is wrong - they will have to come to that conclusion themselves in order to change. So try and step away from arguments regarding religion with your parents - it can be tough sometimes though. If it comes down to it you can always ask them to respect your beliefs just like you will respect theirs. If you don't go to mass then don't bring that up in front of your sister since they will feel the need to defend their beliefs in front of her and could hold it against you if she decides she does not want to go to mass either.

nkay1985

Hey OP,

I think this is my first time actually posting in here as this is the first thread I thought I could make a contribution to that didn't descend into the same old argument. Well, it seems it has, but I'll post anyway

I reckon I was about your age when I stopped believing in God too. Between 15 and 18 was probably when I formed my opinions. I first thought - right, maybe you just don't believe in organised religion, maybe there's still a God but you just won't be Catholic anymore. But I just kept coming back with the same answer in my head - I can't see anything whatsoever to suggest that God exists. So that was that!

Reconciling this realisation and my upbringing/familial beliefs is where the problems occurred! I started going out with my girlfriend when I was 16. Both our families went to the same church so over the course of the next year we started to go together. Then we'd have something on on a Saturday night so would miss mass that week. In this way, we gradually stopped going.

To our parents it looked like we were just another teenaged couple that stopped going to mass and that they couldn't make us. But, in reality, both of us had decided, independently, that we just didn't believe in God anymore! So religion no longer had any place in our lives!

This is the way your situation could develop over the next few years. You'll get to an age where you can just stop going to mass because everybody else does too.

I'm 23 now but I don't think our parents knew of our atheism until about two years ago. I had, for many years, been saying things like, "it's ridiculous that I'm not supposed to eat meat today (Ash Wednesday or whatever) but it's fine for me to do it yesterday and tomorrow?" Or, "howcome we're allowed to eat meat on Fridays now, when you weren't allowed when you were young? Has God suddenly changed his mind?". And I got a takeaway on one of these days when I was 18 I'd say, and got meat. My mother gave the whole "you can't eat that" but of course I did!

So, in that way, she must have known that I didn't believe in any of the ways of the church but probably thoguht I still believed in God. The big discussion eventually happened a couple of years ago when me, my girlfriend and my parents were sitting down talking as we often would. I think we were reading The God Delusion at the time so it came up that way. And we basically let them know that we didn't believe in God at all. I think Mam responded with "of course you do". Lol. Then it progressed to "wait until something bad happens to you, then you'll believe". When I pointed out that I'd gone through any trouble I'd had over the previous number of years, such as familial deaths and college exams, without any faith, that kind of put paid to that!

We end up talking about it every now and again. Like if we've been to one of my many cousins' children's christening. I'll say how ridiculous it is that the child won't set foot in a church until they're going to make their Communion, and it'll go from there.

So we've had all the big discussions (wedding next year is going to be a civil ceremony, when a baby arrives they won't be christened and won't practice religion in school etc) by now. But I still think she's convinced herself that I'll come back to Catholicism!

I don't think you should come straight out and say "Mam, I don't believe in God". Just hold onto your own beliefs and state them as they come up. Like the discussion you said came about regarding the Big Bang Theory - if that were to happen again, you could just say, "well, I don't think it was just created by a God. I think it did come about scientifically." And if a debate/argument breaks out, have it then. Same goes for things like Lent and fasting etc. State your beliefs about little things and they'll eventually realise what you don't believe in. And you might build up the the "not going to mass anymore debate". Then, when you're a bit older, you can tell them that you just don't believe in God at all. But I think this piecemeal approach would probably be your best option.

Dades

nkay1985, thanks for that post.

sink

Soory dades didn't see your post until after I had posted mine, do you mind splitting the threads?

Dades

sink wrote: »

Soory dades didn't see your post until after I had posted mine, do you mind splitting the threads?

Done.

CDfm

sink wrote: »

Soory dades didn't see your post until after I had posted mine, do you mind splitting the threads?

Typical atheist hairsplitting:D

Dades you shouldnt indulge him -if he wants to be really brave he should post in the Christianity forum.

sink

CDfm wrote: »

Typical atheist hairsplitting:D

Dades you shouldnt indulge him -if he wants to be really brave he should post in the Christianity forum.

Already have :P

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59273461#post59273461

smileykey

I think the decission to tell your parents and "come out" as a non believer depends on how central it is to your identity. With me I don't believe but it makes a difference in my life if people think I do or not. I have never told my parent but around 15/16 I did make sure to get a weekend job so that I worked saturday night and sunday morning so I didn't have to go to mass, it became so normal that I wouldn't go that even when I gave up the job I wasn't expected. At that stage, and still today, my parents thought my problems lay with the catholic church and not with the whole belief thing. Its easier for them to accept that than to accept that I don't beleive in something so important to them so I let them.

I start work tomorrow for a christian organisation. Wonder how that will go :eek:

Galvasean

smileykey wrote: »

I start work tomorrow for a christian organisation. Wonder how that will go :eek:

Huzzah, another mole!

philologos

smileykey wrote: »

I start work tomorrow for a christian organisation. Wonder how that will go :eek:

Just curious, why did you decide to work for a Christian organisation if you don't believe in Christianity?

axer

Jakkass wrote: »

Just curious, why did you decide to work for a Christian organisation if you don't believe in Christianity?

Recession maybe? Its driving people to do crazy things!

jill_valentine

Would I be right in suggesting it's some manner of charitable organisation?

Galvasean

Jakkass wrote: »

Just curious, why did you decide to work for a Christian organisation if you don't believe in Christianity?

Simple, he believes in money.

Zombrex

axer wrote: »

Recession maybe? Its driving people to do crazy things!

Meh, we are atheists. Everything we do is for material gain and instant gratification :pac:

smileykey

Jakkass wrote: »

Just curious, why did you decide to work for a Christian organisation if you don't believe in Christianity?

It's a christian care home. I'm starting my masters in social work in September and realised that I'm a tolerant person but uncomfortable around very religious folk and that's something I have to get over because if I want to work in this area I have to be tolerant of all types. Its kinda endurance training I guess.