Charter Update

Dodgykeeper

I see the charter has been updated..

"Any requests for photographers to do work should be posted on adverts.ie from here on out. This is particularly the case for wedding related work. "

So will requests for photographers to do work be deleted/locked, think this is a bad idea tbh.

AnCatDubh

I think the charter is pretty clear on it - no ?

Borderfox

Yeah bit of a knee jerk reaction, I got some work on the boards from Lost in Blanch and everything went well. One bad reaction doesnt mean to tar us all as dipso's

Dodgykeeper

AnCatDubh wrote: »

I think the charter is pretty clear on it - no ?

This is particularly the case for wedding related work,

The charter is clear but the above muddied the waters somewhat, will the wedding related posts be even more deleted, can one of the mods explain this
change.

AnCatDubh

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

This is particularly the case for wedding related work,

The charter is clear but the above muddied the waters somewhat, will the wedding related posts be even more deleted, can one of the mods explain this
change.

Dodgykeeper, Apologies but I genuinely dont understand what you are asking. Can you explain. And apologies if i've muddied the waters. Thanks.

ThOnda

I bet this is reaction to the unpleasant situation that happened in DCC. Dublin Camera Club was asked if they could recommend a photographer for a wedding. And they passed that request to members. And one of the members recommended a photographer, who tried to dissappear before the wedding. That put a little bad light on the DCC. And the Charter update is to prevent such thing.

The issue is that we are getting closer to the commercial use of the Boards.ie page too. All the requests for wedding/property/party photographers are fine as far as the people are going to contact the asking person privately via PM. However recommending somebody could be understood as a commercial, although meant in the best way of the good will and experience.

Fair enough, the free space where you can request both free and commercial activities is the Adverts.ie server/page. And I think that all professional photographers should not have problems to set a notification for such adverts there.

I do understand that and I agree with such restriction. Maybe more clarification than restriction.

Dodgykeeper

The Charter says!

Do not post requests looking for photographers to do work here. All such requests should be transmitted through adverts.ie. The sanction for this is thread deletion. Multiple attempts to post work wanted threads here will result in a ban.

Calina says!

Any requests for photographers to do work should be posted on adverts.ie from here on out. This is particularly the case for wedding related work.

I cant understand why Calina added the bolded text, if post is deleted what happens if its wedding related, deleted twice??

I really cant understand why this decision was taken, can one of you mods explain it for me?

Paulw

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

I really cant understand why this decision was taken, can one of you mods explain it for me?

Have to agree. I've actually recommended a few people come to boards.ie and seek a wedding photographer.

Not sure why the charter has been changed, as I think it's a step backwards.

mikeanywhere

The thread/charter is way too specific and needs to be amended.

So in a nutshell if a photographer down the road doesn't show when he/she is supposed to do a commerical/landscape job (just using these as examples) will the charter be amended to reflect that specific discipline??

I think that all jobs should be pushed towards Adverts in that case - what do you reckon to that suggestion???

AnCatDubh

Thanks - now i've got ya.

The charter is the charter i guess which everyone who visits or stays at the forum should read/have read. The additional reference at the end is just to let people know what part of the charter has changed. Otherwise the regulars may not see/notice the change.

I think that's about the extent of it. Nothing sinister other than to add a bit of clarity.

Why weddings mentioned? Weddings are the ones which have a history of causing issues on the forum and adverts is the place designated for this type of thing across all of boards.

EDIT: got ya (as in understand)

CabanSail

ThOnda wrote: »

I bet this is reaction to the unpleasant situation that happened in DCC. Dublin Camera Club was asked if they could recommend a photographer for a wedding. And they passed that request to members. And one of the members recommended a photographer, who tried to dissappear before the wedding. That put a little bad light on the DCC. And the Charter update is to prevent such thing.

I just want to clarify this.

DCC did not recommend anyone. The request was passed directly from the Bride to the members via the email list. One of the members then contacted the Bride & agreed to do the wedding. The saga of the failure of him to complete that contract is discussed on another thread here.

There has been some talk of legal action being taken against DCC over this matter. I do not want to say more than that. DCC has had to take legal advice on the matter.

In a discussion between the Mods here we decided we do not want to expose Boards.ie to the threat of similar legal action. This is why the Charter has been amended. If the Admin advise that they are prepared to take the risk then things could revert to how they were before. Until then the Charter will remain the way it is now.

ThOnda

Thank you for clarifiyng.

Paulw

I guess that means that we on boards have to suffer because there were problems in DCC.

And there was I thinking that the two were not related. :cool:

Can't say that I've seen any reason in here for the need to change. When people look for a wedding photographer, the business end is done via PM anyway.

kensutz

I agree, if DCC took some flak it has nothing to do with this site. We can all live and learn by our mistakes and like Paul has said, any business we do is done via pm and there's no reason to change it.

Calina

Well I can look into it from the point of view of removing the specification regarding weddings but that won't change anything much in terms of what that update is about.

That being said, aside from the current debate on a no-show, we have had umpteen problems with wedding related threads, specifically users looking for less expensive photographers, and flaming which ensues from both regulars here and people looking for a service. I can think of two or three occasions in the last six months where threads of this nature have caused absolute ructions. That's not fair on the OPs who are looking for a service, it is not fair on anyone who may respond and it is not fair on the community at large.

Specifically the charter as it stands allows for all items to be directed towards adverts anyway mike. We tend to get more weddings and, to a slightly lesser extent, gig calls. The gig ones for some reason don't seem to result in the same mayhem however, possibly because the financial profile of that business is quite a bit different although I can remember at least one gig request that provoked a "people always looking for freestuff" argument.

Paulw/kensutz, while it is infinitely preferable to do the business end via PM and is de facto the way it should be done, the fact that you have not noticed problems does not mean that there have been no problems. People like me and AnCatDubh and CabanSail get to clean them up and one wedding related thread provoked a bundle of reported posts one day and I know I've had to lock at least two others at this stage as well. I don't like doing this as it's not fair on people looking for help. But wedding threads have gotten hi-jacked by flame wars caused by people complaining about other people not being willing to pay proper professional fees for their services. This has been an extremely contentious subject which has resulted in a lot of post deletions, quite a few infractions and at least one site-ban. Just because you don't see it does not mean that it doesn't happen.

In any case, it's much the same as how "for sale" notices are not permitted here but are directed towards adverts.ie. We did at some point think about a services wanted stickie not unlike the situations vacant thread which they have in programming, although I have to say I'm not personally in favour of it given that adverts provides an exchange for transactions of that nature anyway.

I'd like to add that this charter update has been under discussion for a while, since the last time I had to clean up a related mess which was about 2 months ago I guess. It got a little speeded up during the week as a result of some of the points raised in the no-show thread but it would have happened anyway.

This is (for now) my two cents on the subject.

shepthedog

I think we have to be careful making snap decisions like this...

I cant see any problem with someone posting on boards looking for a photographer.. It's a very useful resource full of extremely talented photographers..
If there is a fear of boards being seen to recommend a photographer after the whole Joe Duffy debacle, why not specify people can post looking for a photographer and photographers can PM or approach the person...
In that way, boards or its members cannot be seen to be recommending a photographer.

This is definitely a step backwards in terms of the progress of the photo board and its members, and a step towards a nanny state forum...
Who exactly decides such measures? It would be interesting to see the results if it was put to a forum vote..

Dodgykeeper

CabanSail wrote: »

In a discussion between the Mods here we decided we do not want to expose Boards.ie to the threat of similar legal action. This is why the Charter has been amended. If the Admin advise that they are prepared to take the risk then things could revert to how they were before. Until then the Charter will remain the way it is now.

So you are going to expose adverts.ie to the threat of legal action, are they not one and the same!

This is another example of over modding on this forum and is not taking the views of the users on board!

Calina

I would disagree with it being a step backwards per se - it never used to be the business of this forum anyway.

I'd like to know why anyone might have difficulties with using adverts.ie for this, by the way.

Calina

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

So you are going to expose adverts.ie to the threat of legal action, are they not one and the same!

Adverts.ie is, with the best will in the world, a small ads site. The photography forum is not.

I'm not au fait with the legal considerations of the DCC in this respect and I don't particularly care about them but while they might exist, I have a greater and more immediate problem with flame wars breaking out on those threads. Unfortunately that happens very, very, very often.

kensutz

Just wondering if this was approved by the mods of adverts since there's only 1/2 mods there to keep an eye on the photography section. Who's to say the flaming/abusive posts won't appear there?

Calina

The rules in place in adverts are stronger - off topic posting is absolutely not permitted - and to be honest I would have expected any such ads to go under Services Required anyway. I can change the wording of the charter to recommend that anyone looking for that sort of assistance should consider that site. Photography on adverts is, iirc, specifically for equipment?

Thank you for drawing that to my attention however. I will update the charter again, accordingly.

Buzz Lightyear

Paulw wrote: »

I guess that means that we on boards have to suffer because there were problems in DCC.

And there was I thinking that the two were not related.

Paul I don't think that's a fair comment. A number of us here belong to various camera clubs which are a great alternative to boards.ie and we all learn from each others experience and expertise in each location.

However part of learning from each others creative skills is learning from each others mistakes. A camera club thought they were doing the right thing in passing on a request from a member of the public to their members to see if any of them were interested in taking up a commercial assignment. From this goodwill gesture they are being burnt. This in all our eyes is unfair, however it is an unfortunate reality of today's society that some people will litigate against innocent parties if they feel agrieved. This unfortunately puts people off recomending anybody for fear of getting burnt.

Talking to a garda recently and she described a case where two lads helped a person who was being attacked. The person who was attacked was very grateful. However when it came to court, the accused tried to make out that it was these two lads who were involved in the attack and came under a vicious attack from accused's council. The accused did go down for his crime, however after the case both lads said they would think twice about helping out somebody again.

The mods have the best interest of boards.ie at heart. Yes it is unfair that people cannot request a recommendation for a photographer from these boards. There are many great people here who are very professional in their work and approach to photography. A lot of us amatures learn from the pros like yourself Paul. However they have to protect the forum from possible litigation. As Cabansail said if the Admins wish to restore the status quo then that is their call. It's not fair, but either is stupid litigation.

Philip

Dragan

On no other Forum on boards are members allowed to effectively advertise themselves.

I think there is some overreaction alright, but not from the Mods.

Dodgykeeper

Dragan wrote: »

On no other Forum on boards are members allowed to effectively advertise themselves.

I think there is some overreaction alright, but not from the Mods.

We are not talking about advertising ourselves, we are talking about people looking for a photographer and coming here and asking if people are interested in the job! I have got work this way both paid and unpaid!

Dragan

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

We are not talking about advertising ourselves, we are talking about people looking for a photographer and coming here and asking if people are interested in the job! I have got work this way both paid and unpaid!

The same argument applies. Adverts.ie is the catch all, if someone is looking for a specific service, they can post their requirements.

AnCatDubh

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

I have got work this way both paid and unpaid!

And you will now find that work on adverts - you won't lose any work. In fact you will be exposed to more opportunities of those that post on adverts and not here.

Calina

There is also a Services Available option in Adverts.ie I think.

AnCatDubh

Calina wrote: »

There is also a Services Available option in Adverts.ie I think.

I'd suggest people who are interested in this sort of thing generally put a post in Services Available as Calina suggests above and monitors set up notification in the Services Wanted section on Adverts. That should catch all.

stcstc

I am one of the moderators on Photography Ireland, and we dont allow posts like what are being discussed

They are a nightmare in the long run, and generally always cause a row

BUT

I do agree that it is nice for people looking for a photog to come here looking



Would it maybe possible to create a sticky with a list of photogs who do paid and unpaid work, like a directory that these people could search through and as questions.

And at the top of the stickie make it clear that boards have no business connection to the photogs.

Buzz Lightyear

stcstc wrote: »

Would it maybe possible to create a sticky with a list of photogs

Jazus --- NOT ANOTHER FECKIN STICKY.:D:D

Soon we'll have to go to page 48 to get to recent post with all the feckin sticky's. :eek:

Paulw

People in here don't offer their services.

Users post looking for help/assistance/guidance and come looking for a photographer.

I think there is a major difference.

Next step will be that we can't offer advice to others on aspects of photography, in case the advice we offer is wrong, and someone takes legal action for getting bad advice. (slight sarcasm)

But, seems like what happens in DCC now effects the members of boards.

AnCatDubh

stcstc wrote: »

Would it maybe possible to create a sticky with a list of photogs who do paid and unpaid work, like a directory that these people could search through and as questions.

While its a good suggestion Steve, past experience would show stickies which have a commercial flavour (even where there was no monetary transaction involved) get knobbled by site wide moderation sooner or later (and they have quite reasonable rationale for doing so) and with it having happened in the past on the photography forum, then I don't think it would be appropriate. As Dragan posted and as I did previously - the position across boards site (every forum) on such matters is adverts.

Buzz Lightyear

Maybe the mods could PM everybody who uses the photogs forums (only if they can mass email) to let us all know where to redirect people - so that we are all aware.

AnCatDubh

Buzz Lightyear wrote: »

Maybe the mods could PM everybody who uses the photogs forums (only if they can mass email) to let us all know where to redirect people - so that we are all aware.

I think the likely action post deletion (assuming it isn't a multiple attempt by the individual) is to follow with a pm to the individual. This is normal in most circumstances for any of the mods who delete threads (some of you will have received such already). These pm's are generally friendly notes to say 'look it was inappropriate here but if you post there you'll be fine'.

I think the two areas i posted above on adverts are candidates for a standard reply to the individuals concerned such that everyone could use them. These could be specified in the charter too qualifying the reference to adverts.

stcstc

well maybe not a stickie but something easy to find for people looking for photogs

CabanSail

Paulw wrote: »

But, seems like what happens in DCC now effects the members of boards.

That's like what happens at with a certain entertainment promoter affects what happens on Boards too. I was not going to raise the issues here, but the show on Liveline did that & it became a thread. As I know a fair bit more about what has gone on I have tried to clarify things which are public knowledge.

There has been a recent history of problems on this Forum when people request Photographic Services, which extends back well before I was a Mod. These threads have often been in a grey area as to if they should be here or on Adverts.ie The recent events at DCC, which had similarities to people asking for referrals here, has prompted a change here.

Ricky91t

Dragan wrote: »

On no other Forum on boards are members allowed to effectively advertise themselves.

I think there is some overreaction alright, but not from the Mods.

Yes they are,Wedding forum has post like "wedding photography for free" and i'm sure there's plenty more like that.

Just Playing

Maybe the mods should just moved the threads to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=670 with no link back. Photo peeps could then just browse that forum on a regular basis to see if they can help.

Calina

well they could potentially do that anyway.

kensutz

CabanSail wrote: »

That's like what happens at with a certain entertainment promoter affects what happens on Boards too. I was not going to raise the issues here, but the show on Liveline did that & it became a thread. As I know a fair bit more about what has gone on I have tried to clarify things which are public knowledge.

Without going into too much detail, it is completely the opposite thing. People on boards were spreading rumours about security etc at the event so it was a case of the forums fault spreading libellous statements and not the promoters affecting the website. When the promoters found out what was being said, they then set up a legal case against boards.ie

DCC has once again, nothing to do with boards.ie You don't see charters being updated in the soccer forum after teams bought dodgy players. You don't see charters updated in the consoles forum after people got some dodgy games or their systems crashed.

Just Playing

Calina wrote: »

well they could potentially do that anyway.

In my mind the best people to ask are the endusers or past endusers!

Mycroft H

Is it not possible to have a sticky link to a specific area on adverts where all photography work wanted/offered is shown. It would solve this problem and would inform everybody of where to go.

Calina

I can update the link in the charter which currently goes to adverts.ie

Calina

kensutz wrote: »

Without going into too much detail, it is completely the opposite thing. People on boards were spreading rumours about security etc at the event so it was a case of the forums fault spreading libellous statements and not the promoters affecting the website. When the promoters found out what was being said, they then set up a legal case against boards.ie

DCC has once again, nothing to do with boards.ie You don't see charters being updated in the soccer forum after teams bought dodgy players. You don't see charters updated in the consoles forum after people got some dodgy games or their systems crashed.

DCC also has nothing to do with the flame wars which ensue here any time someone comes looking for a wedding photographer because 1500E is too much to pay for wedding photographers, or because some people don't agree with the recommendations of others. The reason you didn't get a charter update the last time it happened was because we and the admins were otherwise occupied.

As has been posed in the poll thread, this matter is now being passed on to powers higher than me, CabanSail and AnCatDubh.

I would be grateful if you could be patient enough to wait for me to get a response on the subject.

ThOnda

There is a sticky in the Wedding forum for photography. I think that it is so specific area, that you can set up immediate e-mail notification, if you are interested.
Maybe it is due to the fact that I don't think that my skills are good enough to do weddings (even as a second shooter), but I think that the majority of anybody's business did not come from here.

Darragh

Hey all,

Just to let you know this is something that we're looking at here in HQ.

A simple solution that I'm thinking - and I haven't discussed it with the mods yet - is that there's a sub forum in photography, linked to Adverts, where if you're looking for a photographer to do a wedding, you can post there.

It's then up to the photographers to PM you if they wish, but under no circumstances will Boards.ie., Adverts.ie or the moderators be responsible for any issues that may subsequently occur, in much the same way as answering an ad in a newspaper or in the corner shop and so on.

We'll be back with a response as soon as possible.

Darragh

Paulw

Darragh wrote: »

A simple solution that I'm thinking - and I haven't discussed it with the mods yet - is that there's a sub forum in photography, linked to Adverts, where if you're looking for a photographer to do a wedding, you can post there.

It's then up to the photographers to PM you if they wish, but under no circumstances will Boards.ie., Adverts.ie or the moderators be responsible for any issues that may subsequently occur, in much the same way as answering an ad in a newspaper or in the corner shop and so on.

That sounds fair.

The vast majority of responses to threads have been via PM to someone looking for a photographer, with the thread used to discuss wedding photography - costs, details, contracts, etc.

A sub-forum might work well.

Just my view though.

Dragan

Sounds like a good solution alright!