Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

Pigman III

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Tis a sad day when you are being damned for being happy with Champions League success. We have shown time and time again that we can compete with the best teams in the world. I just don't understand how a manager can be slated while this remains the case.

The lack of success in the PL is disappointing but as you point out, there are countless reasons that can be used to explain this. I won't be criticising Rafa to any large degree until the clubs ownership and hierarchy are sorted out.

What I don't understand about things like that is; how do you expect to be best in your continant if you can't become the best in your country?

therecklessone

Pigman III wrote: »

What I don't understand about things like that is; how do you expect to be best in your continant if you can't become the best in your country?

I would have thought that was obvious, the tournament best able to judge the best European side does not require sides to win their league championship to compete.

Highsider

Aquos76 wrote: »

So are we now seeing some pool fans saying they want the CL now more than the PL, thats a turn up for the books aye....

I am quitely confident that liverpool will be ending the season without any trophies this season. They do not have the squad for them to win anything imo

Here are the goals for those who have not yet seen them
1-0
2-0

El Zhar's miss

I'll bite. Your right we don't have the squad nor the money to assemble that squad. When we do have that investment at the Chelsea and Man u levels then and only then will it be time to judge Rafa Benitez. Even at that it shows just what a fantastic manager Rafa is when we are 3rd favourite to win the champions league.

jesus_thats_gre

Pigman III wrote: »

What I don't understand about things like that is; how do you expect to be best in your continant if you can't become the best in your country?

As things stand this season, we aren't too far behind the very best in the country. We have outplayed and defeated the two clubs that are perceievd to be better at every oppurtunity that we have had this season.

What distinguishes Liverpool from the very best at the moment (Man United) is United's water tight defence and their ability to scrape that 1 nil victory.

We could easily be considered to the 2nd or 3rd best club in both the PL and CL this season. That is more than enough for me as it is a solid base to build on and is a very different situation to where we were 5 years ago before Rafa took over.

Hank Scorpio

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

As things stand this season, we aren't too far behind the very best in the country. We have outplayed and defeated the two clubs that are perceievd to be better at every oppurtunity that we have had this season.

What distinguishes Liverpool from the very best at the moment (Man United) is United's water tight defence and their ability to scrape that 1 nil victory.

We could easily be considered to the 2nd or 3rd best club in both the PL and CL this season. That is more than enough for me as it is a solid base to build on and is a very different situation to where we were 5 years ago before Rafa took over.

erm...... No.

Benitez has spent more than ferguson and the only top quality player hes bought has been torres in the past few years, something like 50 players been brought in, i heard on the BBC he averaged bringing in 1 new player every 25 days or something similar, Man for Man , UTD`s squad and chelseas squad crushes liverpools in regards of quality! IMO<

Headshot

nuxxx wrote: »

erm...... No.

Benitez has spent more than ferguson and the only top quality player hes bought has been torres in the past few years, something like 50 players been brought in, i heard on the BBC he averaged bringing in 1 new player every 25 days or something similar, Man for Man , UTD`s squad and chelseas squad crushes liverpools in regards of quality! IMO<

what about Reina,Alonso,masch,

(skertel is looking to be a good buy too)

Reina probly being the best keeper in the league

I do agree with you that man utd squad is way better

only 3 liverpool players could get into the utd squad at the moment that being torres,Reina and stevie G

jesus_thats_gre

nuxxx wrote: »

erm...... No.

Benitez has spent more than ferguson and the only top quality player hes bought has been torres in the past few years, something like 50 players been brought in, i heard on the BBC he averaged bringing in 1 new player every 25 days or something similar, Man for Man , UTD`s squad and chelseas squad crushes liverpools in regards of quality! IMO<

The time it took to assemble and the overall value on paper of the United squad completely destroys that of Liverpool. The only club that has been able to catch up on and match the investment in individuals of United is Chelsea.

As such, the fact that the Liverpool squad is inferior to both not surprising in the slightest.

Your argument is extremely simplistic in nature.

The net spend of AF in the last 5 years probably is very similar to Rafa's during the same period but the previous 5 years saw the:

- retention of 3, 4 or 5 of the best players in their position in the world (G. Neville, Ferdinand, Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo)

- a few extremely useful and influential utility players (O'Shea, Fletcher and Brown)

- while also adding 2 or 3 10 to 30 million rated players every season (Anderson, Nani, Tosic, Rooney, Berbatov, Tevez, Carrick, Hargreaves)

-and also adding a few very good value gems (Vidic and Evra)

AF net spend is also artificially low due to selling players that were purchased before Rafa's time while Rafa was at Liverpool - Ruud and Veron being prime examples.




Do I really have to list the players bought by Chelsea during Rafa's tenure and how much they cost?

Pigman III

Headshot wrote: »

what about Reina,Alonso,masch,

(skertel is looking to be a good buy too)

Reina probly being the best keeper in the league

I do agree with you that man utd squad is way better

only 3 liverpool players could get into the utd squad at the moment that being torres,Reina and stevie G

Where are you getting Reina from? I wouldn't dream of having him in the sticks for United! In fact, I would have nightmares about having him there!

jesus_thats_gre

Pigman III wrote: »

Where are you getting Reina from? I wouldn't dream of having him in the sticks for United! In fact, I would have nightmares about having him there!

Good man.. Our opinions differ so much that there is little point either of us responding to each others posts.

Headshot

jesus_thats_gre you forgot utds youth policy with the likes of welbeck,raf,fabio,evans and Eckersley

who have made apperances in the first team this season

with players like that, utd wont need to spend so much money in the future

thats where liverpool are having problems at the moment,just no bright youngsters coming through

Pigman III wrote: »

Where are you getting Reina from? I wouldn't dream of having him in the sticks for United! In fact, I would have nightmares about having him there!

for once im going to agree with jesus_thats_gre

Pigman III

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Good man.. Our opinions differ so much that there is little point either of us responding to each others posts.

"Well if you don't know what you've done, then there's no point in me telling you!" - Basically.

Smegball

VDS >> Reina

IMO anyways, brings more composure and a sense of security at the back.

Reina granted is a good keeper but is slightly more error prone imo especially from crosses.

VDS just has a aura of security and stability which Reina lacks in SLIGHTLY.

eagle eye

Smegball wrote: »

VDS >> Reina

IMO anyways, brings more composure and a sense of security at the back.

Reina granted is a good keeper but is slightly more error prone imo especially from crosses.

VDS just has a aura of security and stability which Reina lacks in SLIGHTLY.

Lets not start a Ferguson and goalkeepers thing in here in this thread but

Tim Howard >>>>>>Reina>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>VDS imo

Mr Alan

Smegball wrote: »

VDS >> Reina

IMO anyways, brings more composure and a sense of security at the back.

Reina granted is a good keeper but is slightly more error prone imo especially from crosses.

VDS just has a aura of security and stability which Reina lacks in SLIGHTLY.

this post makes sense, if you actually the mean the opposite of EVERYTHING you say.

VDS cost Utd wat, 4/5 goals in the first couple of months of this season...Reina has cost Liverpool 4/5 goals in the last 3 years.

Reina is better than VDS in every dept. except the "looking like a mouse" dept.

fish fingers

eagle eye wrote: »

Lets not start a Ferguson and goalkeepers thing in here in this thread but

Tim Howard >>>>>>Reina>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>VDS imo

Thats why Man utd won feck all with him

fish fingers

Mr Alan wrote: »

this post makes sense, if you actually the mean the opposite of EVERYTHING you say.

VDS cost Utd wat, 4/5 goals in the first couple of months of this season...Reina has cost Liverpool 4/5 goals in the last 3 years.

Reina is better than VDS in every dept. except the "looking like a mouse" dept.

Straws, clutching at

Headshot

Smegball wrote: »

VDS >> Reina

IMO anyways, brings more composure and a sense of security at the back.

Reina granted is a good keeper but is slightly more error prone imo especially from crosses.

VDS just has a aura of security and stability which Reina lacks in SLIGHTLY.

I think this talk should be in another thread but ill answer anyway

Smegball have you forgotten the VDS of last season and start of this season
he can be very dodgy

yes we won the CL and EPL but vds was dodgy.
the defense more or less saved him

Im not saying Reina is perfect,hes prone to mistakes too but hes a dam fine keeper

Nalz

Mr Alan wrote: »

this post makes sense, if you actually the mean the opposite of EVERYTHING you say.

VDS cost Utd wat, 4/5 goals in the first couple of months of this season...Reina has cost Liverpool 4/5 goals in the last 3 years.

Reina is better than VDS in every dept. except the "looking like a mouse" dept.

I much prefer fresh grapes meself!

Mr Alan

fish fingers wrote: »

Straws, clutching at

really? you think comparing the amount of mistakes they make that cost goals is clutching at straws when comparing goalkeepers?

come on outa that now.

Trilla wrote: »

I much prefer fresh grapes meself!

no sour grapes from me. never thought we'd win the league this year.

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Thanks Rafa.........get your coat, and close the ******* door on your way out!!!

:mad:

i cant wait for him to sign his new deal either.

CHD

I have a huge hatred for liverpool and man utd but Reina > VDS and there the top two right nw, only Given comes close lately imo.

therecklessone

Headshot wrote: »

I think this talk should be in another thread but ill answer anyway

I tend to agree, and in an effort to avoid another match thread closure I've moved the most pertinent posts (and the ones veering off-topic ) here.

I can't think of another thread title, it's been a long day, but I'm not trying to instigate a Liverpool vs the world row. You guys want to compare and contrast, work away here and we'll see how things go.

Hope that meets with some approval.

LuckyLloyd

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Try £81,791,000 Boogles, as you well know.

Ronnie didn't imply that rafa had spent loads and recouped loads.

He deliberately implied that Rafa had outlayed a total of £200,000,000 on 69 players.

Rafa has only bought 51 players, and the NET outlay was £81,791,000.
That's over 5 seasons.
That means that Rafa has spent on average £16,358,200 a season!


But then we all know this.
And we all know that the people here don't care, and that they will get involved, saying the exact same things the next time this is posted.
Because they simply want to argue.


We also know that Rafa has spend Net of £81 mill, and has recouped around £50 mill in Champions League money alone, not to mention the £20 or so mill in domestic earnings.

Add to that the increase in value of players like Masch, Torres, Skrtel, Agger, Alonso, Reina etc etc etc.

So Rafa has technically made more money for the club than he's cost them!

His wages are paltry (comparatively), Torres alone has doubled in value in a year, and his win in the CL generated £26,000,000 not to mention the £12,000,000 two years later, and the millions in the other two runs.


But facts are such awkward little things, eh?!;)

.

Headshot

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

.

i knew your going to bring that out

nice bookmark

jesus_thats_gre

Headshot wrote: »

jesus_thats_gre you forgot utds youth policy with the likes of welbeck,raf,fabio,evans and Eckersley

who have made apperances in the first team this season

with players like that, utd wont need to spend so much money in the future

thats where liverpool are having problems at the moment,just no bright youngsters coming through

I agree that the youth policy of Liverpool isn't producing the talent that it should be. The problem is that it takes a few seasons for players like that to be produced. They are spotted at in their teens and nurtured for anything up to 6 or 7 years before they start regularly making appearences for the first team.

In signing 15 to 20 young players in the past 2 years or so, it is obvious that the club are trying to make steps to rectify that shortcoming.

All these are all reasons why simply comparing AF's net spent to Rafa's net spend over the last 4.5 years is extremely naive.

jesus_thats_gre

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Your argument is extremely simplistic in nature.

The net spend of AF in the last 5 years probably is very similar to Rafa's during the same period but the previous 5 years saw the:

- retention of 3, 4 or 5 of the best players in their position in the world (G. Neville, Ferdinand, Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo)

- a few extremely useful and influential utility players (O'Shea, Fletcher and Brown)

- while also adding 2 or 3 10 to 30 million rated players every season (Anderson, Nani, Tosic, Rooney, Berbatov, Tevez, Carrick, Hargreaves)

-and also adding a few very good value gems (Vidic and Evra)

AF net spend is also artificially low due to selling players that were purchased before Rafa's time while Rafa was at Liverpool - Ruud and Veron being prime examples.

To further highlight how the net spend argument since Rafa joined is overly simple, United have recieved the following transfer fees for players during that same period for players that were signed long before Rafa ever had anything to do with Liverpool:

David Beckham to Real Madrid - 25 million pound or 35 million eurp
Juan Veron to Chelsea - 14 million pound or 20 million euro
Ruud Van Nistelrooy - 12 million pound or 18 million euro

And sure throw in the debacle with Chelsea over Jon Obi Mikel - 12 million pound or 18 million euro.

All these do is skew the figures to the extend that it is not a valid argument.

Unearthly

Beckham and Veron were sold Summer 2003. 1 year before Benitez joined Liverpool.

jesus_thats_gre

Unearthly wrote: »

Beckham and Veron were sold Summer 2003. 1 year before Benitez joined Liverpool.

Indeed, apologies.

In an attempt to keep my point semi relevent, United's net transfer spend for that summer was a profit of 15 million pound and included the purchase of Ronaldo.

PHB

In all fairness, Fabio and Rafael were bought like a year and a half ago, as was Possebon. Welbeck and Evans were coming through the youth team that is true though.

---

The net spend isn't naive. It's just not entirely encompassing. It's just pointing out that the stupid argument we hear like 'but Benetiz has had to work on a budget', is, as anyone who actually listens to other posters, stupid.

---

RE: Ruud and net spend. Some players were sold for Liverpool, some were sold from United. Owen, Murphy, baros and Cisse would have brought in close to 25 million. Liverpools total spend has been higher than United's, as has their total income in sales [obviously].


----

Are any of these points not valid?

1. United and Liverpool have spent nearly the same amount of money in terms of net spend in the last 5 years.

2. In those five years, United have, on average, bought less players for more money, while Liverpool have bought more players, and then sold them on, for less money.

3. At the point of takeover, United were in better shape than United in terms of squad. Ferdinand, Giggs, Scholes, Ronaldo, Brown, Fletcher and O'Shea are still around.
Liverpool just have Hyypia, Carragher and Gerrard. Most would agree the 3 talents there are fairly similar, the difference there was simply the three squad players of Brown, Fletcher and O'Shea, and then Ronaldo.

4. The league positions however didn't massively reflect this difference, with United and Liverpool both failing to compete with Arsenal that year. The following two years, United couldn't compete in the league.

5. Both managers had to entirely rebuild the squad.

6. The two managers took difference approaches.

I think everyone agrees with those 6 points.
After that imo the transfer record speaks for itself.

GK - Both had to buy a new keeper and both did, and both are fairly happy with it.
LB - Both had to get a new LB to replace the old one. Fergie bought Evra for 6.5 million. Benetiz has bought Dossena, Inusa, Aurélio. None of them has been as good.
CB - Both had to get a CB to partner their current one (Ferdinand/Carragher). United bought Vidic for 7.5 million. Liverpool have bought Agger and Sretkle. Vidic is better, but the other two are decent.
RB - United had Neville. Liverpool had Finnan. Both were very good. When their time came, United had Brown in waiting, and have since gotten Rafael for like 1 million. Liverpool have bought a few in this area, most notably Arbeleo, who is quality.
CM - United replaced all but Scholes. Liverpool replaced all but Gerrard. Both managers have done pretty well in this area.
RM - United already had Ronaldo. Liverpool had nobody decent.
LM - United had an aging Giggs, but nobody else. Liverpool had nobody decent.
United bought Nani, Park and now Tosic. Liverpool have bought so many wingers so less money and it hasn't worked out. [Although Reira is showing good signs]
Strikers - United bought 3 top quality strikers. Rooney, Berbatov and Saha. Liverpool bought a load of them for less money and it didnt work out. Both have spent similar net spends in this area.

In nearly all areas, bar maybe CM, United shade it. With similar net spends. And similar enough starting positions. United defo had a better starting position, no doubt about it. But ultimately, and this is the real nuts and bolts of it, Benetiz's transfer policies haven't been as good as they should be. Whatever the reason, he's had 5 years to mould a squad and he has made just too many mistakes. Let's list them in terms of attackers and list Fergie's mistakes.

Rafa's certain mistakes: [Didn't include Babel or Lucas who the jury is still out on]
Keane
Crouch
Bellamy
Gonzalez
Pennant
Morientes

Fergie's mistakes:
Saha [although he did play a big role in one title win]

Personally, I think Benetiz's transfer record speaks for itself. There are lots of things that meant that he had a harder starting position, most if not all would accept that. But after that starting position, he had the same amount of money, and he has used it poorly.

noodler

People who keep mentioning players who he bought and sold on without a loss should ask if thats really what the point of signing players is. It certainly isn't to sell them on in a year-the key idea behind buying players is strengthening the squad.

I simply don't trust Rafa with anymore money, certainly not the amounts that have been mentioned in the media.

Guy:Incognito

PHB wrote: »

Rafa's certain mistakes: [Didn't include Babel or Lucas who the jury is still out on]
Keane
Crouch
Bellamy
Gonzalez
Pennant
Morientes

Fergie's mistakes:
Saha [although he did play a big role in one title win]
.

Havnt read through the lot so forgive me if I miss the point on that but what of the likes of Djemba-Djemba and a few goal keepers? Veron?Kleberson?

PHB

I was talking about since Rafa joined. I was also just talking about attacking players.
That said, Fergie's transfers before Mourinho came in were shocking imo, but he totally stepped it up after that point.

micks

PHB wrote: »

In all fairness, Fabio and Rafael were bought like a year and a half ago, as was Possebon. Welbeck and Evans were coming through the youth team that is true though.

---

The net spend isn't naive. It's just not entirely encompassing. It's just pointing out that the stupid argument we hear like 'but Benetiz has had to work on a budget', is, as anyone who actually listens to other posters, stupid.

---

RE: Ruud and net spend. Some players were sold for Liverpool, some were sold from United. Owen, Murphy, baros and Cisse would have brought in close to 25 million. Liverpools total spend has been higher than United's, as has their total income in sales [obviously].


----

Are any of these points not valid?

1. United and Liverpool have spent nearly the same amount of money in terms of net spend in the last 5 years...

Agreed but IMO different scale of task was required

PHB wrote: »

2. In those five years, United have, on average, bought less players for more money, while Liverpool have bought more players, and then sold them on, for less money.

Agreed but again because of the scale of replacements required by both

PHB wrote: »

3. At the point of takeover, United were in better shape than United in terms of squad. Ferdinand, Giggs, Scholes, Ronaldo, Brown, Fletcher and O'Shea are still around.
Liverpool just have Hyypia, Carragher and Gerrard. Most would agree the 3 talents there are fairly similar, the difference there was simply the three squad players of Brown, Fletcher and O'Shea, and then Ronaldo.

Ferdinand - Carragher
Ronaldo - Gerrard
Neville - Hyypia

These would be comparable in term of value to team over last few years. But UTD have 5 squad players that each will play more than 10 games at least this season.
By comparing them with the like of lucas,babel,pennant,agger,Benayoun, who have had similar involvement in Liverpool's team to Utd's 5 but at a cost of 30-40 Million? That alone is a big deficit.

PHB wrote: »

4. The league positions however didn't massively reflect this difference, with United and Liverpool both failing to compete with Arsenal that year. The following two years, United couldn't compete in the league.

5. Both managers had to entirely rebuild the squad.

6. The two managers took difference approaches.

I think everyone agrees with those 6 points.
After that imo the transfer record speaks for itself..

You make it sound like Rafa simply chose the wrong way to go or bought badly?

PHB wrote: »

GK - Both had to buy a new keeper and both did, and both are fairly happy with it.
LB - Both had to get a new LB to replace the old one. Fergie bought Evra for 6.5 million. Benetiz has bought Dossena, Inusa, Aurélio. None of them has been as good.
CB - Both had to get a CB to partner their current one (Ferdinand/Carragher). United bought Vidic for 7.5 million. Liverpool have bought Agger and Sretkle. Vidic is better, but the other two are decent.
RB - United had Neville. Liverpool had Finnan. Both were very good. When their time came, United had Brown in waiting, and have since gotten Rafael for like 1 million. Liverpool have bought a few in this area, most notably Arbeleo, who is quality.
CM - United replaced all but Scholes. Liverpool replaced all but Gerrard. Both managers have done pretty well in this area.
RM - United already had Ronaldo. Liverpool had nobody decent.
LM - United had an aging Giggs, but nobody else. Liverpool had nobody decent.
United bought Nani, Park and now Tosic. Liverpool have bought so many wingers so less money and it hasn't worked out. [Although Reira is showing good signs]
Strikers - United bought 3 top quality strikers. Rooney, Berbatov and Saha. Liverpool bought a load of them for less money and it didnt work out. Both have spent similar net spends in this area. .

The First choice 11 is similar in quaility but for me the big difference is that Fergie is spending 18million (approx) on squad/fringe players Hargreaves(first team i know but lack of availability means not on team),Anderson,Nani while Raf has only been able to approach that figure with Torres and Keane.

PHB wrote: »

In nearly all areas, bar maybe CM, United shade it. With similar net spends. And similar enough starting positions. United defo had a better starting position, no doubt about it. But ultimately, and this is the real nuts and bolts of it, Benetiz's transfer policies haven't been as good as they should be. Whatever the reason, he's had 5 years to mould a squad and he has made just too many mistakes. Let's list them in terms of attackers and list Fergie's mistakes.

Rafa's certain mistakes: [Didn't include Babel or Lucas who the jury is still out on]
Keane
Crouch
Bellamy
Gonzalez
Pennant
Morientes

Fergie's mistakes:
Saha [although he did play a big role in one title win]

Personally, I think Benetiz's transfer record speaks for itself. There are lots of things that meant that he had a harder starting position, most if not all would accept that. But after that starting position, he had the same amount of money, and he has used it poorly.

Winners write history as the saying goes Utd will prob 3rd title in a row so it doesn't matter how they got there. But Anderson,Nani and Hargreaves for their fees could be counted as mistakes. Tevez was a masterstroke got a 30 million striker for 2 years for peanuts. The squad players already in place and the loan signing of Tevez is at least 50 million worth of players tha Fergie has had over Rafa in the last few years. But IMO Rafa will (if still at Liverpool) take a similar route to Fergie form this summer on. signing one or two 20 mill + players and hopefully the likes of Insua, Nemeth etc coming through instead of buying a player for 7 mill. Time will tell.

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

VDS cost Utd wat, 4/5 goals in the first couple of months of this season...

4 or 5, could you name them????

I can think of 2 mistakes which led to goals, I would take that every season from a keeper, all players make mistakes.

eagle eye

fish fingers wrote: »

Thats why Man utd won feck all with him

I think the arrival of Vidic and Evra made a huge difference to United. Imo letting Howard go to Everton was a mistake. While VDS is a solid goalkeeper, he is not as good as Howard imo, and also he does not have long left in his career.

eagle eye

On the subject of Rafa's transfers, its unfair to compare him to Ferguson at this point in time. The United youth system brings through players and those players are good enough to be used as squad players with the odd one from time to time breaking through. They did have that gifted youth team in the early nineties which provided a base for much of the success they have enjoyed over the last decade, the Nevilles, Beckham, Butt and Scholes all becoming big players at United.

But if you go back to when Ferguson first arrived at United and what went on at that time, there are a lot of similarities. United had a huge squad when Ferguson arrived and he still signed all the following before he won a League title. Now in this day and age that is not a huge amount of signings but back then it was considered ridiculous.

Viv Anderson
Brian McClair
Steve Bruce
Jim Leighton
Lee Sharpe
Mark Hughes
Mal Donaghy
Ralph Milne
Giuliano Miarana
Mike Phelan
Neill Webb
Brian Carey
Gary Pallister
Danny Wallace
Paul Ince
Les Sealey
Denis Irwin
Neil Whitworth
Andrei Kanchelskis
Peter Schmeichel
Paul Parker
Dion Dublin
Pat McGibbon
Eric Cantona

When you look at that list, the most important thing to note is the defensive players he signed who would go on to be the backbone of the team for quite some time. Bruce, Pallister, Irwin and Schmeichel all came along over that six year period. Paul Ince was another who was crucial to their first title but there are a lot of players on that list who did not work out for one reason or another. Towards the end of that list you see he signed two attacking players who did make a difference in Kanchelskis and Cantona and that to me was the key in them winning that first Premier League title.
Now compare that to Rafa Benitez. He certainly has a defense and has added Alonso and Mascherano in midfield and Torres up front. Basically he is pretty close to where United were at the start of the '90s.

I think its interesting that they both suffer from a lack of patience in one particular part of the pitch. Ferguson has a terrible record with goalkeepers with Schmeichel being a godsend to United after the disasters of Jim Leighton and Les Sealey, he sold Mark Bosnich too. I think Benitez is the same with forwards and its just a matter of him finding the missing pieces of the jigsaw to put Liverpool back on top.

kida

What trophies has Rafa one since the squad has been Rafatized. The CL and FA cup were both won with players he predominately inherited.

slingerz

Compare the matchday squads:

1. Reina v VDS
2. Arbeloa V Neville
3. Aurelio v Evra
4. Carragher V Ferdinand
5. Skrtel V Vidic
6. Alonso v Carrick
7. Mascherano v Scholes
8. Riera v Giggs
9. Torres v Berbatov
10. Gerrard v Ronaldo
11. Kuyt V Rooney

12. Cavalieri V Foster
13. Dossena v Rafeal
14. Agger V Evans
15. Benyaoun V Nani
16. Lucas V Hargreaves
17. Babel V Anderson
18. N'Gog V Tevez

Hyypia V Brown
El Zhar V Tosic

United have O'Shea, Fabio, Welbeck, Gibson, Kuzachak all in reserve.

While the first 11's are pretty comparable until you get to the attacking talent and thats where only Gerrard and Torres can compare. On the bench players like Nani, Hargreaves, Anderson and Tevez all cost more than most Liverpool players.

Headshot

slingerz wrote: »

Compare the matchday squads:

1. Reina v VDS
2. Arbeloa V Neville
3. Aurelio v Evra
4. Carragher V Ferdinand
5. Skrtel V Vidic
6. Alonso v Carrick
7. Mascherano v Scholes
8. Riera v Giggs
9. Torres v Berbatov
10. Gerrard v Ronaldo
11. Kuyt V Rooney

12. Cavalieri V Foster
13. Dossena v Rafeal
14. Agger V Evans
15. Benyaoun V Nani
16. Lucas V Hargreaves
17. Babel V Anderson
18. N'Gog V Tevez

Hyypia V Brown
El Zhar V Tosic

United have O'Shea, Fabio, Welbeck, Gibson, Kuzachak all in reserve.

While the first 11's are pretty comparable until you get to the attacking talent and thats where only Gerrard and Torres can compare. On the bench players like Nani, Hargreaves, Anderson and Tevez all cost more than most Liverpool players.

how can you compare Gerrard v Ronaldo both play totally different positions

and pretty comparable

3. Aurelio v Evra
4. Carragher V Ferdinand
5. Skrtel V Vidic
6. Alonso v Carrick

utd wins there

and i had a laugh when i saw this Kuyt V Rooney
kuyt isnt a striker anymore tbh
when liverpool have this full strength team,kuyt would be on the right

7. Mascherano v Scholes

again totally different players

8. Riera v Giggs

should be Riera v park

tbh i could write more a your comparables but I dont have the patience

but thanks for the laugh

zing

PHB wrote: »

[ ... ]
5. Both managers had to entirely rebuild the squad.

6. The two managers took difference approaches.

I think everyone agrees with those 6 points.

[ ... ]
United defo had a better starting position, no doubt about it. But ultimately, and this is the real nuts and bolts of it, Benetiz's transfer policies haven't been as good as they should be. Whatever the reason, he's had 5 years to mould a squad and he has made just too many mistakes. Let's list them in terms of attackers and list Fergie's mistakes.

[ ... ]

Personally, I think Benetiz's transfer record speaks for itself. There are lots of things that meant that he had a harder starting position, most if not all would accept that. But after that starting position, he had the same amount of money, and he has used it poorly.

You're at least acknowledging the different starting positions but at the same time almost dismiss it but either way - you're not taking other factors into account.

Yes they both have overhauled their squads over the years and as you say they took different approaches to it but you also say it like there was a choice

Fergie started with a squad he was relatively comfortable with - or at the very least a squad he'd built up over the years which were playing his kind of football and knew what he wanted of them - and has had the luxury of being able to essentially tweak it a bit every year while having the full support of his board. He's literally been able to go - I need a new player for this position - go buy me X and it's happened. He's identified his main targets, his board have backed him and he's also been able to pick up some decent up & coming talents each year while he's at it.

Rafa on the other hand inherited a squad which pretty much most of us agree with - had way less quality through out, was aging in some cases or was largely just crap in others. That squad didn't afford him the luxury of being able to tweak here & there - it needed wholesale changes and I reckon most new managers coming into Liverpool at the time would have done the same (including Fergie/Mourinho/Wenger/etc..). Just about all new managers coming into a team do the same thing.

You've also must remember that Rafa was consistently told that there was big investment just around the corner and he'd be getting a decent budget then so for now just go sign a few interim players. People forget this but I think it is what has (very foolishly) largely dictated the clubs approach - not just the managers approach - to transfers pre takeover. Unfortunately though there was no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow (wasn't even a bloody rainbow) and I can only see his hands being further tied until there is fresh investment in the club.

I fully agree that some of his buys have been poor but I also expect any other manager walking into that position would taken a fairly similar approach and made a bunch of mistakes too. We've all seen the type of players Rafa has tried but not been able to sign for whatever reason (the likes of Alves, Maluoda, Smiao, Aguero, etc..). There's even reportedly been deals where he's agreed pretty much everything with the selling club & player only for Liverpool/Parry & co. to have then come along and f#cked those deals up. Torres was one such deal where he'd arranged everything right down to having spoken to the player directly but thankfully the club weren't able to mess that one up. Things could have been so much different but that's all a case of whatifs. In fact I suspect things would have been very different if Owen hadn't left when he did but that's another whatif..

From the other thread and I've replied to it there but ..

PHB wrote:

Is there any doubt that Liverpool would be in a much better position if instead of buying Dossena, Keane and Riera, they bought Ashley Young for 35 million?

PHB While you make some valid points I can't help but read your posts on this matter and think that they've been written by either a utd or a chelsea fan - and over the next few years you'll be able to add city fans in there as well. A fan of a club who these days can always afford to get their main targets and it's almost unheard of for them to miss out on a player over a few quid. A fan of a club who's already got enough talent in the squad that they have had the luxury of being able to prioritise one position over another in a given xfer window. Apart from those most other clubs live in a different financial world and have to spread their money around that bit more.

But I really don't see why we constantly have the Rafa's V Fergie's spending arguement as no matter which way you look at it - it's simply not a like for like comparison and never will be. Chalk and Cheese

Mitch Connor

People compare them because Rafa lies about the situation, saying he has spent less than he has received, which annoys people.

whatawaster

Headshot wrote: »

how can you compare Gerrard v Ronaldo both play totally different positions

and pretty comparable

3. Aurelio v Evra
4. Carragher V Ferdinand
5. Skrtel V Vidic
6. Alonso v Carrick

utd wins there

and i had a laugh when i saw this Kuyt V Rooney
kuyt isnt a striker anymore tbh
when liverpool have this full strength team,kuyt would be on the right

7. Mascherano v Scholes

again totally different players

8. Riera v Giggs

should be Riera v park

I would say

Reina v Van Der Saar - Reina
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, but not by as much as people think
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Alonso
Gerrard v Rooney - Gerrard
Kuyt v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

United have so many more attacking options that it's hard to compare them, but obviously Rooney and Tevez would own Benayoun, Babel etc.
For comparisons sake i just put both down for a 4231 formation.

kida

whatawaster wrote: »

I would say

Reina v Van Der Saar - Reina
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, but not by as much as people think
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Alonso
Gerrard v Rooney - Gerrard
Kuyt v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

United have so many more attacking options that it's hard to compare them, but obviously Rooney and Tevez would own Benayoun, Babel etc.
For comparisons sake i just put both down for a 4231 formation.

sorry but ROFL
all 3 of Pools midfielders better


Reina v Van Der Saar - Current VDS
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Brown - not close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, by a mile
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Scholes
Gerrard v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Kuyt v Rooney - Rooney
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

in a 4-4-2

whatawaster

kida wrote: »

sorry but ROFL
all 3 of Pools midfielders better


Reina v Van Der Saar - Current VDS
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Brown - not close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, by a mile
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Scholes
Gerrard v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Kuyt v Rooney - Rooney
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

in a 4-4-2

but Gerrard doesn't play in Ronaldo's position. That's why i compared him to Rooney, and i would take him over Wayne any day of the week. They both play off a striker. Ronaldo plays in the same position as Kuyt.
Scholes is a legend, but he is not the player he used to be, Alonso is at his peak and is imo a better player.

Headshot

whatawaster wrote: »

I would say

Reina v Van Der Saar - Reina
Arbeloa v Neville/Brown - Close
Aurelio v Evra - Evra
Carragher v Ferdinand - Ferdinand, but not by as much as people think
Skrtel v Vidic - Vidic, but Skrtel is outstanding imo
Mascherano v Carrick - Mascherano
Alonso v Scholes - Alonso
Gerrard v Rooney - Gerrard
Kuyt v Ronaldo - Ronaldo
Riera v Park/Giggs - Park/Giggs
Torres v Berbatov - Torres

United have so many more attacking options that it's hard to compare them, but obviously Rooney and Tevez would own Benayoun, Babel etc.
For comparisons sake i just put both down for a 4231 formation.

I can agree with some of them(only some)

masch is a brilliant DM but he cant pass the ball unlike carrick.
carrick is a brilliant player,eye for a goal,good intercepter ,brilliant passer,
so i would vote carrick

Alonso v Scholes

edit: yesterdays game really showed how good scholes is still

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Alonso is at his peak

Alonso at his Peak?? He hasn't had a good game this calender year. He was good in 8-10 matches at the start of the season, excellent in a couple, but over the last 3 years he has been very very average, comparing him to Scholes is both unfair and a joke TBH.

whatawaster

Headshot wrote: »

I can agree with some of them(only some)

masch is a brilliant DM but he cant pass the ball unlike carrick.
carrick is a brilliant player,eye for a goal,good intercepter ,brilliant passer,
so i would vote carrick

Alonso v Scholes
I would say this is even

i completely admit Vidic is better than Skrtel.

completely disagree about Scholes. He's not the player he once was.

We'll have to agree to disagree about Mascherano and Carrick, they play different roles anyway. I think he'd walk into United's team to be honest, alongside Carrick, he'd give your midfield better balance.

PiE

I'm so glad this rubbish isn't in the Liverpool thread. Thanks mods.

Boggles

PiE wrote: »

I'm so glad this rubbish isn't in the Liverpool thread. Thanks mods.

Great input as usual Pie, well done lad. :rolleyes:

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Alonso at his Peak?? He hasn't had a good game this calender year. He was good in 8-10 matches at the start of the season, excellent in a couple, but over the last 3 years he has been very very average, comparing him to Scholes is both unfair and a joke TBH.

8-10 matches. P*ss off, he's been our best player this season apart from Gerrard. We must be fighting off relegation if our second best player has been good in barely half a dozen games. Give us all a break please.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

8-10 matches. P*ss off, he's been our best player this season apart from Gerrard. We must be fighting off relegation if our second best player has been good in barely half a dozen games. Give us all a break please.

What match this calender year was he at his peak?

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

What match this calender year was he at his peak?

don't know about his peak, but he was outstanding against Real Madrid, not going forward, but he defended brilliantly.
He was excellent against Chelsea, and although his form has dipped slightly since the start of the season, he's certainly not going through some sort of crisis as you are seemingly suggesting.