Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

slingerz

You cant choose betweent the defences with the exception of Left Back where United are a lot stronger. In the centre of midfield Alonso and Mascherano compare against Carrick and Scholes. Gerrard can compare against Rooney off the striker. Torres is better than Berbatov but Berbatov is still a quality player. Ronaldo is way ahead of Kuyt and Park and Riera are pretty comparable really.

On the bench though having Anderson, Carrick, Nani, Tevez, Fletcher, Evans, O'Shea etc is where United are way over Liverpool

kida

slingerz wrote: »

You cant choose betweent the defences with the exception of Left Back where United are a lot stronger. /QUOTE]

Very true except for Centre Backs and Right Back :pac:

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Mitch Connor

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

As a solid DM, Mascherano is better, Carrick is more like Alonso, and as a CM, Carrick is a lot better than Mascherano. I don't think it is fair to say one is better than the other, they are both brilliant at what they are asked to do, which suits the way their manager wants them and their team to play. I don't think United would be as good with Mascherano in for Carrick, or at least they'd be very different, and the same would have to be said for Liverpool.

MementoMori

Liverpool Current Squad

Fernando Torres £26m
Javier Mascherano £18.6m
Ryan Babel £11.5m
Xabi Alonso £10.7m
Dirk Kuyt £9m
Albert Riera £8m
Pepe Reina £6m
Martin Škrtel £6m
Andrea Dossena £6m
Lucas £6m
Daniel Agger £5.8m
Yossi Benayoun £5m
Diego Cavalieri £3m
Sami Hyypiä £2.6m
Álvaro Arbeloa £2.6m
David N'Gog £1.5m
Emiliano Insúa £1m
Steven Gerrard Youth Player
Jamie Carragher Youth Player
Jay Spearing Youth Player
Stephen Darby Youth Player
Martin Kelly Youth Player
Fábio Aurélio Free
Nabil El Zhar Free
Damien Plessis Free
Philipp Degen Free
Charles Itandje Undisclosed (£2m max - most likely around £1m)

Grand Total £131.3m

What about Robbie Keane I hear the cry?

He has been omitted but even if you want to include him I think you’re looking at a maximum net cost of £7m and I’m actually pretty confident it’s somewhat closer to a net fee of £3m.

For the sake of it I will add a “loan fee” of £5m

Grand Total £136.3m

This also includes Charles Itandje:mad::mad:, who given he wasn’t even named as sub for the Carling Cup has to be considered 5th choice keeper at the club.

It also includes Fernando at £26m even though personally I believe the £20m is likely but there has been a lot of confusion about this and I reckon there will be enough dispute about figures anyway.

Rio Ferdinand £33m
Dimitar Berbatov £30.75m
Wayne Rooney £25.6m
Anderson £20.4m
Owen Hargreaves £17m
Michael Carrick £14m
Nani £14m
Cristiano Ronaldo £12.24m
Nemanja Vidic £7.2m
Patrice Evra £5.5m
Park Ji-Sung £4m
Edwin van der Sar £2m
Fábio £2.6m
Rafael £2.6m
Tomasz Kuszczak £2.125m
Ben Foster £1m
Ryan Giggs Youth Player
Paul Scholes Youth Player
Gary Neville (captain) Youth Player
Wes Brown Youth Player
John O'Shea Youth Player
Darren Fletcher Youth Player
Danny Welbeck Youth Player
Jonny Evans Youth Player
Frazier Campbell Youth Player
Danny Simpson Youth Player
Darron Gibson Youth Player
Richard Eckersley Youth Player

Grand Total of £194 million excluding Tevez

The loan deal of Carlos Tévez proves difficult. According to everything I‘ve read it‘s a case of a £10m loan fee which was to be set against a transfer fee of £30m if Utd bought him. However this deal has reportedly expired. The fact remains that Utd have paid a £10m loan fee to date, so if I you include Tevez at a minimum of £10m and that pushes things up to £204m mark

There is also the case of Zoran Tošic and Ljajic who were bought for a combined £16.3m, for the future :eek: - I could just imagine what the response Rafa would have got if he had gone looking for £16m for two players "for the future” :eek::o

Also regarding Rodrigo Possebon and Manucho I’m pretty sure that fees were paid but couldn’t find anything in the way of figures.

I’ve included Campbell and Simpson because although they are on loan they’re relevant in terms of players coming through the youth system on loan at Premier League clubs. No product of the LFC youth academy is on loan at any PL team. :(

Taken this all into account would push things up over the £220m level.

A number of things jump out when you compare and contrast the two squads - Rafa has been hampered by the fact that not only did he inherit a squad that needed to be rebuilt he also inherited a shambles of a youth system. Given his track record and experience as youth coach for Real Madrid you can clearly see why he had difficulties with Rick Parry over the youth system at Liverpool. The good news for Liverpool supporters is that things seem to have improved as regards the whole youths side of things, with a reports of a number of potentials for the future. Another problem is that you’re dealing with a much longer time frame with youths especially when you compare it to to transfers.

Looking at Liverpool’s squad the utter abysmal failure of the youth system up until recently is clearly evident. The Liverpool squad have Gerrard and Carra as the two players who have come through the youth system and have gone on to play a significant part and become integral members of the squad. After that it’s Spearing, Darby, and Kelly who have come through the youths and they have not really come anywhere near making an impact as regards the first team, apart from utter cameo appearances. Insua has been developed on through the youth system a fair bit but a fee of £1m had to be paid for him initially. On the United side of things this was similar enough to the Silva twins, although in their case the fee was reported as £5.2m for the two of them.

When you compare the youth side of things for Utd players who have come through from the youths you have Giggs, Scholes, and Neville, who have performed at a similar integral level for Utd. After that you have the squad players Brown, O'Shea and Fletcher who have clocked up significant playing time and made vital contributions to the team, while Liverpool have nothing remotely similar to in terms of coming through the youth system. Even the next rung down the ladder looks to be advantage United with Evans, Welbeck, Gibson, Simpson, Campbell all very likely to have decent careers. Clearly the Man Utd youth system has out performed Liverpool’s in the last decade.:(

One advantage of having a better youth system is that you can always sell on those who don’t turn out to be “top top players” It also means that even if you only end up with a decent squad player - sample example John O’Shea that means at least you don’t have to go to the hassle of going out and buying a squad player in. This can make a big difference on the other side of things as rather than say having to buy one striker and one defender for £30m, you have your defender and can afford to spend the whole £30m on a striker. Also having a productive youth system is handy it that it can turn into a nice little earner. I’m sure a comparison of youth players sold on over the last decade of so would show it to be major advantage Utd once again.

Overall the striking thing is that even though Utd have five (arguably six) first-team squad members, as well as another five or six fringe/squad players who look up to Premier League standard compared to the miserable Liverpool’s two players who have come through the youth system, Utd’s squad cost an utter minimum of £75m and possibly pushing up in the region of £100m more to assemble than Liverpool’s. By rights there shouldn’t really have been any sort of title race whatsoever.

Mitch Connor

Excellent post.

eagle eye

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

Boggles

eagle eye wrote: »

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

No one could agree with that.

slingerz

eagle eye wrote: »

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

Benitiez @ chelsea??

kida

eagle eye wrote: »

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

assume you meant at pool.

Different times, you don't get as much time nowadays. Fergie also was playing a style of football symonymous with the history if the club.

whatawaster

eagle eye wrote: »

Does nobody agree with me on the similarities between Ferguson in his early days at United and Benitez now at Chelsea?

it's impossible not to see many of the similarities.
Could you imagine the United fans in the early nineties when Fergie had been there 5 or 6 years and not delivered the title. Imagine this forum had been running then?

eagle eye

Well no point in editing now as you all quoted it for future reference.:D

Boggles

Long time ago, there maybe simalarities, but in these times there arn't applicaple.

You don't actually have to go back far or step outside Liverpool FC to find a better similarity, Benitez reign has been alot like Houlier, actually if Rafa ends up with squat this season, it would have to argued that Houlier on the same time frame with less spent has been more successful than the Spaniard.

astrofool

You'd be very surprised if Utd's squad didn't cost more than Liverpool's, it's been put together over a longer timeframe, and Utd have been pulling in the highest revenue of all English clubs for years, all Liverpool's buys bar Hyppia have been after Benitez took over, and that's discounting all the players bought and sold.

Liverpool have had a problem for years in nurturing attacking talent, Torres bucked that trend, but Collymore, Heskey, Cisse, Voronin, Keane, Bellamy (+ others i'm sure) have all come and been pushed out the door, it makes it very costly, both in terms of money paid, and in success on the pitch, when players don't settle at the club that well.

eagle eye

Boggles wrote: »

Long time ago, there maybe simalarities, but in these times there arn't applicaple.

You don't actually have to go back far or step outside Liverpool FC to find a better similarity, Benitez reign has been alot like Houlier, actually if Rafa ends up with squat this season, it would have to argued that Houlier on the same time frame with less spent has been more successful than the Spaniard.

Well I outlined what imo are the similarities on the previous page.

I mean United's big problem in the years before they won the title was a lack of goals and too many draws where they should have won. It could be argued that it was just luck that they won the title in 93. That luck being the falling out at Leeds between Wilkinson and Cantona and his subsequent sale to United for a paltry 1 million which was a real surprise at the time.

United won the title convincingly that season but if Cantona had never arrived who knows how it would have gone.

I really think Liverpool and Benitez are very close to taking on United, and I'm talking about two attacking players away from it.

Boggles

eagle eye wrote: »

Well I outlined what imo are the similarities on the previous page.

I mean United's big problem in the years before they won the title was a lack of goals and too many draws where they should have won. It could be argued that it was just luck that they won the title in 93. That luck being the falling out at Leeds between Wilkinson and Cantona and his subsequent sale to United for a paltry 1 million which was a real surprise at the time.

United won the title convincingly that season but if Cantona had never arrived who knows how it would have gone.

I really think Liverpool and Benitez are very close to taking on United, and I'm talking about two attacking players away from it.

Ifs and Buts and over simplification, the team that wins the league more often than not deserves it.

Liverpool will never win the league, trying to the build the team solely around Gerrard.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Ifs and Buts and over simplification, the team that wins the league more often than not deserves it.

Liverpool will never win the league, trying to the build the team solely around Gerrard.

how are we building the team around Gerrard any more than United build there team around Ronaldo, Arsenal around Fabregas etc etc etc. It's simply that we don't have as many quality players as United, but Rafa isn't actively trying to make us a one-man team. We were a one-man team when he took over, but we have amassed some pretty impressive results without him this season.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

but we have amassed some pretty impressive results without him this season.

Thats my point, the team can play and have showed they can play without Gerrard, when Gerrard is in the team and does not perform there is no plan B.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Thats my point, the team can play and have showed they can play without Gerrard, when Gerrard is in the team and does not perform there is no plan B.

i think it's just that we have so few players who have the skill to breakdown packed defences, rather than the team being built around Stevie. Gerrard and Torres spring to mind. After that? Benayoun . . . Riera . . .

I am, i must confess, a little upset that i will be asking Rafa for the same thing this summer as i did last - an out and out winger, and a wing-forward type player.
I think Riera's poor form over the last couple of week's has been very unfortunate timing, as he does have a little bit of trickery about him. Rubbish in the last couple of games, but i've definitely seen enough of him to suggest he's a more than adequate squad-member for a title-challenging or even title-winning side. It's absolutely essential that we address the positions in our best starting XI where we have such players - should be squad players but we are too reliant on them at the moment. They are, i think, in order -
- Riera
- Kuyt
- Arbeloa
- Aurelio (though he's been very good any time he's been fit for an extended period of time)

The first three positions 100% need to be addressed in the summer. Rafa SHOULD have more than 30 million to spend in the summer before any sales (not holding my breath though) given his paltry net spend this year, so three quality players for those positions could be attainable. Maybe a full back in the 7-10 million range, a 15m winger or wing-forward and a 10m winger or wing forward.

Left back i would be happy to leave as is. Insua should step up and become first choice. Dossena will probably be sold.

Boggles

Considering Gerrards preferred position is off the striker, I would have liked to seen this lineup with Keane in the team at the start of the year.

---

Keane

---

Torres

---

Reira

---

Gerrard

---

Alonso

---

Mash

---

This would have involved 2 no' no's, Stevie playing on the right (which he can do quite well, but is on record as saying he hates it) and Rafa dropping Kuyt.

Personally from what I have seen of Reira he is a one trick poney, looks very uninterested at times, and apart from a couple of good performances he does look distinctly average.

The problem is a complete lack of quality wingers at the moment, maybe Silva, can play on left, would cost 25m plus the cost of a top quality strike partner for Torres.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Considering Gerrards preferred position is off the striker, I would have liked to seen this lineup with Keane in the team at the start of the year.

---

Keane

---

Torres

---

Reira

---

Gerrard

---

Alonso

---

Mash

---

This would have involved 2 no' no's, Stevie playing on the right (which he can do quite well, but is on record as saying he hates it) and Rafa dropping Kuyt.

Personally from what I have seen of Reira he is a one trick poney, looks very uninterested at times, and apart from a couple of good performances he does look distinctly average.

The problem is a complete lack of quality wingers at the moment, maybe Silva, can play on left, would cost 25m plus the cost of a top quality strike partner for Torres.

there'll be no quality striker partner for Torres brough in i don't think, but rather someone who can directly replace him if he were injured. Perhaps Babel will step into that role. He has looked good there in flashes (ie: away to Chelsea. Even with his erratic first touch he would be a decent option up there. I think, for example, he could be better than Agbonlahor, and people would probably be overjoyed if he was our backup striker) I don't go along with the need for us to ever play a 442, even against the Stoke's, Fulhams etc. We will hopefully have Nemeth available for next season. He's not a dissimilar player to Robbie Keane, and i think he can one day be just as good. The difference is, he's young and will settle for a bit-part role in the short term anyway.

PS, i would like to see Gerrard on the right more too, but i think you get the best out of Torres in a 4231

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

there'll be no quality striker partner for Torres brough in i don't think, but rather someone who can directly replace him if he were injured. Perhaps Babel will step into that role. He has looked good there in flashes (ie: away to Chelsea. Even with his erratic first touch he would be a decent option up there. I think, for example, he could be better than Agbonlahor, and people would probably be overjoyed if he was our backup striker) I don't go along with the need for us to ever play a 442, even against the Stoke's, Fulhams etc. We will hopefully have Nemeth available for next season. He's not a dissimilar player to Robbie Keane, and i think he can one day be just as good. The difference is, he's young and will settle for a bit-part role in the short term anyway.

Babel will be sold in the summer, he is one of the few players that Liverpool can cash in on.

Realistically the chances are Nemeth will be a failure.

eagle eye

Boggles wrote: »

Ifs and Buts and over simplification, the team that wins the league more often than not deserves it.

Liverpool will never win the league, trying to the build the team solely around Gerrard.

What on earth are you talking about?

Ifs and buts were clearly the case with United in Ferguson's early years. He won a title after Cantona joined the team. Cantana provided that missing link between the players and scored many important goals from nothing. Give Liverpool their Cantona right now and they become the best team in the Premier League, it is that simple. Their defense is impressive, their central midfield is impressive, they are just short an attacking option which allows them to beat the lesser teams. Thats one or two players at most that they require.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Realistically the chances are Nemeth will be a failure.

have you ever seen him play?

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

have you ever seen him play?

No. But that's not why I am saying the chances are he will be a failure more than a success.

He has never been tested at any sort of level approaching the premeir league. It is impossible to make a judgement call on him, statistically thou he is more likely to fail at Liverpool than succeed.

PHB

MementoMori wrote: »

Overall the striking thing is that even though Utd have five (arguably six) first-team squad members, as well as another five or six fringe/squad players who look up to Premier League standard compared to the miserable Liverpool’s two players who have come through the youth system, Utd’s squad cost an utter minimum of £75m and possibly pushing up in the region of £100m more to assemble than Liverpool’s. By rights there shouldn’t really have been any sort of title race whatsoever.

Excellent post. It just misses one key point. That Benetiz has wasted nearly the difference through failed purchases and sales.

whatawaster

PHB wrote: »

Excellent post. It just misses one key point. That Benetiz has wasted nearly the difference through failed purchases and sales.

not really true. Bellamy and Crouch were sold at a profit. Morientes and Keane both got significant returns on their fees.

he hasn't wasted nearly as much money as people think. His total spend is 81 million. Reina (7.5), Arbeloa (2.5), Skrtel (6.5), Agger (6), mascherano (17), Torres (20), Alonso (10.5) and Kuyt (9) equal 80 million.

The rest has been wheeling and dealing unfortunately, with varying degrees of success. We'd have loved to have been able to keep Crouch, Bellamy and Sissoko as squad players. But the reality was we couldn't afford to keep them and strengthen our squad at the same time.

Boggles

eagle eye wrote: »

Give Liverpool their Cantona right now and they become the best team in the Premier League, it is that simple.

So Liverpool in your opinion are one player short of being the best in the league?

kida

A key point many a Liverpool fan is missing is the time it takes for a player to fail a successful player could have been contributing

Also in this time wages, signing on fees and also a leaving fee(if the player doesn't ask for a transfer) has to factored in,. For example Morientes cost 6.5M and reportedly left for 3M. I would guess that his stay cost a lot more than 3.5M.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

So Liverpool in your opinion are one player short of being the best in the league?

clearly not, but one world class winger and Torres and Gerrard staying fit could have been the difference this season between our challenging derailing as it has, and it not. I don't think our squad is even as good as Chelsea's. But we're level on points with them.

whatawaster

kida wrote: »

A key point many a Liverpool fan is missing is the time it takes for a player to fail a successful player could have been contributing

Also in this time wages, signing on fees and also a leaving fee(if the player doesn't ask for a transfer) has to factored in,. For example Morientes cost 6.5M and reportedly left for 3M. I would guess that his stay cost a lot more than 3.5M.

you've reminded me of another oft-overlooked fact. Our wage bill is, i believe, significantly lower than United's and Chelseas. Another area where we have to struggle to compete.

slingerz

2 wide attacking players of notable quality and a quality left back are what is required. I said Arshavin would be good before Arsenal got him and at 12M wasnt exactly over priced. Player sales are not whats needed whats needed is roughly 60M in terms of investment with no outgoing sales.

whatawaster

slingerz wrote: »

Player sales are not whats needed whats needed is roughly 60M in terms of investment with no outgoing sales.

unlikely to happen though is it?

We also probably need another central midfielder, with Gerrard now essentially a second striker.

MementoMori

PHB wrote: »

Excellent post. It just misses one key point. That Benetiz has wasted nearly the difference through failed purchases and sales.

I have to disagree - in terms of missing the point - the problem hasnt been Rafa's purchases and sales. It has been in the fact that the squad he had to dispose of was not very good and the prices received reflected that.

Looking on those players who Rafa has both bought and sold during his time at Liverpool we have the following

Luis Garcia £6m £4m
Antonio Nunez £0m £1.5m
Josemi £2m Kronkamp
Kronkamp £0m £2m
Morientes £6.3m £3m
Scott Carson £.75m £3.25
Zenden £0m £0m
Antonio Barragan £0m £680,000
Mark Gonzalez £4.5m £4.2m
Momo Sissoko £5.6m £8.2m
Crouch £7m £11m
Craig Bellamy £6m £7.5m
Paletta £2m £1.5m
Jermaine Pennant £6.7m £0m
Robbie Keane £19m £16m

Net Cost £3,020,000

There is also the fact that LFC got a fee from Villa for Carson's loan - I'm pretty sure this was a million and there was talk of £500k from Portsmouth as a loan fee.

The arguement that Rafa has wasted a large amount of money on a number of flops clearly just isn't true.

The only negative net players are Pennant, Keane, Morientes, Gonzalez, Paletta and Garcia. Of those Pennant, Keane and Morientes are unquestionable flops in the financial sense. Gonzalez ended up only costing
£300k and Paletta £500k while with Garcia it was more a case of the player's age. Given the net cost of £2m you would have to classify him as a major success at the club.

So where was the problem?

Answer - the squad inherited and the subsequent prices received for them

2004
Markus Babbel £0m - in a sense very unlucky with his illness
Danny Murphy £2.5m - Looks like a poor price now
Michael Owen £8m - Coco the clown :mad: - deal done before Rafa arrived
Emile Heskey £6.25m - Looks like a poor price now

2005
Pellegrino £0m - cost nothing, got nothing
Antonio Nunez £1.5m - legacy of the Owen deal more Coco the clown magic
Milan Baros £6.5m - looks a reasonable price
Diouf £4m - looks like a poor price now
Smicer £0m
Henchoz £0m
Alou Diarra £2m

2006
Kirkland £3m - Always thought we should have got more
Mellor £500k - Could have got more looks fair now though
Traore £2m - No commetn
Hamman £0 - shocking
Morientes £3m - probably fair
Cheyrou £0 - No comment

2007
Dudek £0 -
Zenden £0 -:(
Cisse £6m - doesnt look like we got value here - broken leg didnt help
Diao £0m - No comment
Warnock £1.5m - Looks like a bit of a bargain
Sinama-Pongolle £2.7m - Probably about fair

2008
Le Tallec £1m - Just glad to get anything
Kewell £0m -
Riise £4m - A decent price in a sale :eek:
Finnan £2m - Looks like a stroke of genius with his injury

Jeez just listing this is depressing.
So out of the players Rafa inherited we ended up receiving approx £57m
That averages out at just a smidge over £2m per player :(:(:(

eagle eye

Boggles wrote: »

So Liverpool in your opinion are one player short of being the best in the league?

One or maybe two attacking players. Not your average run of the mill top pros either, they need another special player. Look at United they have Ronaldo and Rooney and Tevez three very special attacking players. Imo Tevez would be a great signing for Liverpool and might just be the player to ignite that team. Another player I'd like to see Liverpool go in for would be David Silva. Now if Liverpool could somehow get the funds to sign those two players I think its game on next season.

zing

MementoMori wrote: »

Michael Owen £8m - Coco the clown :mad: - deal done before Rafa arrived
Emile Heskey £6.25m - Looks like a poor price now

I think that comment about the deal being done before Rafa arrived is against the wrong player there.

Also I'm not sure if you're taking remaining periods on players contracts fully into account in relation to some of the comments you've made regarding monies received for some individual players. We all know a players value decreases a lot the more their contracts run down.

mormank

Boggles wrote: »

So Liverpool in your opinion are one player short of being the best in the league?

yes one player/ problem is that that player currently plays for utd!! u take ronnie out of the utd team and put him into liverpools and yes i think liverpool will thne be the best team in the league and would almost stroll to the title..rmembering that ronnie is so good at playing/scoring against the supposed weaker teams in the league, which is where liverpools title hopes were dashed this season

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote: »

Excellent post. It just misses one key point. That Benetiz has wasted nearly the difference through failed purchases and sales.

Benitez has bought and subsequently sold 16 or 17 players. He has made a total loss of 3 million. The figures used were based on the money handed over at the time of the player leaving, i.e. does not include subsequent money received through add ons. So in truth, he has actually made a profit on these..

That sort of counters your point, doesn't it?


Incidently, I have not replied to your post where you quoted me as it has been addressed in a better fashion than I ever would have been able to.

kida

Interesting no pool fans responded to my point yesterday that both of the trophies he won came predominately with Houlliers players, Champions League had only 1 Benitez signing in starting 11 and FA Cup had only 4.

This is the most telling statisitc of all. That "his" team has not won anything.

eagle eye

kida wrote: »

Interesting no pool fans responded to my point yesterday that both of the trophies he won came predominately with Houlliers players, Champions League had only 1 Benitez signing in starting 11 and FA Cup had only 4.

This is the most telling statisitc of all. That "his" team has not won anything.

First I'm not a pool fan.

As far as I'm aware he bought players when he arrived at Liverpool. Did none of these play in them seasons?
Did none of them play in the finals?

I couldn't be bothered to check because I'm certain they did.

Boggles

kida wrote: »

Interesting no pool fans responded to my point yesterday that both of the trophies he won came predominately with Houlliers players, Champions League had only 1 Benitez signing in starting 11 and FA Cup had only 4.

This is the most telling statisitc of all. That "his" team has not won anything.

It is an interesting point, shoots down the theory that Rafa inherited a ****é squad.

Since the last time he won a trophy he has spent in excess of 135 million in the past 2 and a half years.

Boggles

eagle eye wrote: »

Did none of them play in the finals?

I couldn't be bothered to check because I'm certain they did.

You might be certain because he told you in his post they did, read it again.

kida

eagle eye wrote: »

First I'm not a pool fan.

As far as I'm aware he bought players when he arrived at Liverpool. Did none of these play in them seasons?
Did none of them play in the finals?

I couldn't be bothered to check because I'm certain they did.

Only Alonso played CL,
Reina,Alonso,Crouch and Sissoko played Fa Cup. 2 of which have left and 1 he tried to sell.

spockety

Boggles wrote: »

It is an interesting point, shoots down the theory that Rafa inherited a ****é squad.

Or conversely, it shows that he is an outstanding manager, given that the team he inherited did not win a Champions League the previous seasons under a different manager, but when he came along they did.

a) Squad X + Houllier = No Champions League
b) Squad X + Benitez = Champions League Winners 2005

Spot the difference between a), and b) folks.

Mitch Connor

spockety wrote: »

Or conversely, it shows that he is an outstanding manager, given that the team he inherited did not win a Champions League the previous seasons under a different manager, but when he came along they did.

a) Squad X + Houllier = No Champions League
b) Squad X + Benitez = Champions League Winners 2005

Spot the difference between a), and b) folks.

Oh Oh oh - 1 extra year training together?

eagle eye

kida wrote: »

Only Alonso played CL,
Reina,Alonso,Crouch and Sissoko played Fa Cup. 2 of which have left and 1 he tried to sell.

In the Champions League Alonso and Garcia both started. Thats 2 in the Champions League final.

In the Fa Cup final, Reina, Alonso, Sissoko and Crouch all started. Morientes and Kromkamp both came on as subs.

Whether he sold them or tried to sell them since is irrelevant.

kida

eagle eye wrote: »

In the Champions League Alonso and Garcia both started. Thats 2 in the Champions League final.

In the Fa Cup final, Reina, Alonso, Sissoko and Crouch all started. Morientes and Kromkamp both came on as subs.

Whether he sold them or tried to sell them since is irrelevant.

ok missed Garcia but my point remains the same

LuckyLloyd

kida wrote: »

Interesting no pool fans responded to my point yesterday that both of the trophies he won came predominately with Houlliers players, Champions League had only 1 Benitez signing in starting 11 and FA Cup had only 4.

This is the most telling statisitc of all. That "his" team has not won anything.

Boggles wrote: »

It is an interesting point, shoots down the theory that Rafa inherited a ****é squad.

Since the last time he won a trophy he has spent in excess of 135 million in the past 2 and a half years.

lol. Alonso and Luis Garcia were pretty good in that Champions League campaign.

And his team reached a final two years later, and extra time in a semi - final the year after that, indicating that it is Benitez's good coaching - not Houllier's players - that are the key reason for Liverpool's success in Europe since 2005.

Mitch Connor

Would it not raise the question on whether the squad actually needed the complete overhaul Rafa has put it through, and whether it has been as succesful as it should have been?

mayordenis

kida wrote: »

ok missed Garcia but my point remains the same

not really, he's then gone to another final with a side he has created and there's nothing to say he won't go one step better this year, with a team like

reina, arbeloa, carra, skrtel, aurelio, kuyt, alonso, masch, riera, gerrard, torres. which is also more or less the side that came within minutes of a final last year.

your point is basically he has assembled an inferior squad to the one he inherited?

While silverware is the only real tangable meter for rating a team against another, nobody who knows anything about football would honestly argue that liverpools first team squad are worse off than they were in 05. There's actually a massive gulf.

Would you be someone by any chance who would say liverpool ere lucky to win the CL in 05?