Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

kida

mayordenis wrote: »

not really, he's then gone to another final with a side he has created and there's nothing to say he won't go one step better this year, with a team like

reina, arbeloa, carra, skrtel, aurelio, kuyt, alonso, masch, riera, gerrard, torres. which is also more or less the side that came within minutes of a final last year.

your point is basically he has assembled an inferior squad to the one he inherited?

While silverware is the only real tangable meter for rating a team against another, nobody who knows anything about football would honestly argue that liverpools first team squad are worse off than they were in 05. There's actually a massive gulf.

Would you be someone by any chance who would say liverpool ere lucky to win the CL in 05?

The FACT remains that he was more succesful with players he inherited so maybe the players he had were not that bad or in actual fact that the current squad is not as good as rose tinted pool fans would lead people to believe.

LuckyLloyd

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would it not raise the question on whether the squad actually needed the complete overhaul Rafa has put it through, and whether it has been as succesful as it should have been?

Not at all. That Liverpool squad had no business being anywhere near a Champions League final in terms of the talent it contained on paper. Universal consensus amongst bookies and football traders before the knockout stages began in February 2005 was that they were rank outsiders to win the competition behind the likes of Bayer Leverkusen (who Liverpool dispatched comfortably) or Inter (who got stomped on by AC Milan in the Quarter Finals). Benitez got them to achieve way over and above the sum of their parts for that one year. The likes of Biscan and (yes - credit where credit is due) Traore probably played the best football of their entire careers in some of the games from that run.

But they weren't going to be able to be at that level consistently and, as such, they needed to be replaced.

LuckyLloyd

kida wrote: »

The FACT remains that he was more succesful with players he inherited so maybe the players he had were not that bad or in actual fact that the current squad is not as good as rose tinted pool fans would lead people to believe.

lol. Another FACT that is going to be worth looking at is the points tally of the Liverpool team when this premiership campaign is finished as compared to the point tally amassed in May 2005.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol. Another FACT that is going to be worth looking at is the points tally of the Liverpool team when this premiership campaign is finished as compared to the point tally amassed in May 2005.

Blah points tally is a convienent way to pretend a team is improving, when other teams are improving around you, it is position in the league that is the vital and true gauge. Benitez has been up and down in the league, with Arsenal, United and Villa to play yet this season, it could well be another 4th again or the unthinkable 5th.

kida

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol. Another FACT that is going to be worth looking at is the points tally of the Liverpool team when this premiership campaign is finished as compared to the point tally amassed in May 2005.

based on current form that will be an interesting FACT

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

Blah points tally is a convienent way to pretend a team is improving, when other teams are improving around you, it is position in the league that is the vital and true gauge. Benitez has been up and down in the league, with Arsenal, United and Villa to play yet this season, it could well be another 4th again or the unthinkable 5th.

What? That's some funny logic. So, if a team garners 7 more points over the course of the season yet doesn't improve their league position they haven't improved? :rolleyes:

No sir, they have improved. Maybe not by as much as their main rivals - but they are nonetheless a better team. If Liverpool improve by 7 - 10 points and still finish fourth, it will speak for the extreme difficulty of winning the premiership at the moment - however it shall not be an argument for Liverpool having gone backwards. lol.

Mitch Connor

`7 extra points can be gained by other teams having poorer seasons as easily as liveprool having improved.

MementoMori

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Would it not raise the question on whether the squad actually needed the complete overhaul Rafa has put it through, and whether it has been as succesful as it should have been?

Just a list of the players who were part of the squad that won the CL in 2005 and the price received for them when they were sold.

Gerrard
Hyypia
Alonso
Carragher
Baros 6.5
Cisse 6
Riise 4
Garcia 4
Carson 3.25
Kirkland 3
Traore 2
Josemi 2
Finnan 2
Warnock 1.5
Nuñez 1.5
Le Tallec 1
Mellor 0.5
Diao 0
Biscan 0
Smicer 0
Kewell 0
Henchoz 0
Hamann 0
Dudek 0

Total : £37.25m Average per player £1,862,500

While some of the poor amounts received may be down to contracts running out/injuries, it's clear that we did not do well in terms of cashing in on these CL winners.

Clearly the purpose of LFC isn't to make money in terms of selling players on.

However the prices received clearly give a very clear pointer in terms of the quality of the squad. Even if we had gotten decent selling prices for a number of the players, they were still a number of players in there who were not up to the challenge of fighting for a title

Does anyone believe that a squad containing Nuñez, Le Tallec, Mellor, Diao,
Biscan, Traore and Josemi even only as bit part players would have any serious hope of challenging for a title?

eagle eye

To all the Man U fans arguing about Benitez I ask you these questions.

Should Alex Ferguson have been sacked pre 1993?

Should he have been sacked the season United finished 11th?

If not why not?

Does Benitez deserve the same amount of time that was given to Ferguson?

If not why not?

Mitch Connor

I want Rafa to stay - i just take issue with his lies.

slingerz

whatawaster wrote: »

unlikely to happen though is it?

We also probably need another central midfielder, with Gerrard now essentially a second striker.

Raul Abidol is supposedly being lined up for £13 million.

A defensive midfielder.

FFS.

Did Benitez ever think that it might be an idea to score goals as well as stopping the other team from scoring

Unearthly

eagle eye wrote: »

To all the Man U fans arguing about Benitez I ask you these questions.

Should Alex Ferguson have been sacked pre 1993?

Should he have been sacked the season United finished 11th?

If not why not?

Does Benitez deserve the same amount of time that was given to Ferguson?

If not why not?

If you are going to use Ferguson as the model, then should every manager in football be giving 7 years to achieve their targets?

~Rebel~

slingerz wrote: »

Raul Abidol is supposedly being lined up for £13 million.

A defensive midfielder.

FFS.

Did Benitez ever think that it might be an idea to score goals as well as stopping the other team from scoring

Thats misinformation really, he's a CB first, DMF second. if he comes in it will be to replace Agger

eagle eye

Unearthly wrote: »

If you are going to use Ferguson as the model, then should every manager in football be giving 7 years to achieve their targets?

If you win a Champion's League and an FA Cup I think you should. But are you going to answer the question or just question the question?

themont85

Benitez is a great tactican. Thats why Liverpool do well in the CL, he's a big game manager.

But I would question his ability to sign a player. His record is farily poor, he has signed a few beauties but the amount of wasted 8 to 10 million signings he's had would make you question his scouts/signings imo. Now he wants full control of signings? I'm not suprised Liverpool were reluctant to him full control.

He is a good manager though.

MementoMori

themont85 wrote: »

But I would question his ability to sign a player. His record is farily poor, he has signed a few beauties but the amount of wasted 8 to 10 million signings he's had would make you question his scouts/signings imo. Now he wants full control of signings? I'm not suprised Liverpool were reluctant to him full control.

Honesty have you read the thread?

I've listed below all of the players that Rafa has purchased that fall anywhere near the "8 to 10 million" price level of wasted signings that you mention. The reason while I went outside the quoted "8 to 10 million" price level, will rather quickly become clear.

Daniel Agger £5.8m - Clearly a successful buy
Pepe Reina £6m - Clearly a successful buy
Martin Škrtel £6m - Clearly a successful buy
Xabi Alonso £10.7m - Clearly a successful buy

Yossi Benayoun £5m - has been inconsistent in patches but had definitely been of value to the team.

Albert Riera £8m - has generally done ok - hasn’t been pulling up any trees but hasn’t been an embarrassment either.

Dirk Kuyt £9m - even if you’re not a fan, you would have to concede that he has been of value. Also if he were sold LFC would expect to recoup a large portion of the £9m and even possibly more.

Andrea Dossena £6m - Jury is still out; at the very worst likely to recoup a substantial portion of the fee if sold

Lucas £6m - Jury is still out; at the very worst likely to recoup a substantial portion if sold

Ryan Babel £11.5m - Jury very much out on Babel after this season, would hope to recoup a fairly large portion of his fee if he was sold given his age and potential

Luis Garcia £6m £4m - at a net cost of £2m was clearly a good buy

Momo Sissoko £5.6m £8.2m - given how congested the midfield was turning a profit of £2.6m was decent work

Crouch £7m £11m - Clearly he wanted to move and wasn’t happy with a place on the bench - Profit of £4m was not a shabby return

Craig Bellamy £6.5m £7.5m - Would have been nice to have been able to hang on to him but needed the funds to buy Torres - still managed to turn a profit

Mark Gonzalez £4.5m £4.2m - didn’t work out but only ended up costing £300k

Morientes £6.3m £3m - clearly didn’t work out

Jermaine Pennant £6.7m £0m - clearly didn’t work out

So of Rafa’s purchases in or around the price you are talking about only two can be clearly considered bad buys at this point in time.

There are a number of others who could yet go one way or the other - Lucas, Dossena, Babel but even in those cases there is a pretty decent likelihood a good portion of the fee paid for them will be recouped.

Overall Rafa has signed very little in the way of outright flops at anywhere near the prices you are suggesting.

I would recommend you check back through the thread and look at the sort of prices LFC got for the players that Rafa bought and subsequently sold and compare it with the type of prices LFC got for the players Rafa inherited.

Combine that with the fact that he has picked up a number of gems at relatively cheap prices along with the fact that even his most expensive signing looks like a massive bargain, I find it hard to see why Liverpool would not be willing to give him full control over spending the transfer budget.

Would you still agree with your statement that

the amount of wasted 8 to 10 million signings he's had would make you question his scouts/signings

The statement is especially funny given Rafa has only signed two players - Kuyt and Riera who actually within the price range of £8m to £10 million.

Would you still question his ability to sign a player, on this basis?

redout

Unearthly wrote: »

If you are going to use Ferguson as the model, then should every manager in football be giving 7 years to achieve their targets?

Benitez was in management since the mid 80's, mid 90's with top sides. Never won until 2002 when he went to Valencia ! He must be a slow starter so. Fergie picked up his first silverware after just three years with St. Mirren then won a bucket load with Aberdeen breaking the old firm and winning a European final against Real Madrid before moving to Man Utd.

eagle eye

redout wrote: »

Benitez was in management since the mid 80's, mid 90's with top sides. Never won until 2002 when he went to Valencia ! He must be a slow starter so. Fergie picked up his first silverware after just three years with St. Mirren then won a bucket load with Aberdeen breaking the old firm and winning a European final against Real Madrid before moving to Man Utd.

Now in all fairness you are talking about his management at Real Madrid but not with Real Madrid's senior squad. So basically you are talking through your backside.

Why don't you answer the questions I asked earlier on, rather than come up with dross like the above.

Mr.Nice Guy

eagle eye wrote:

To all the Man U fans arguing about Benitez I ask you these questions.

Should Alex Ferguson have been sacked pre 1993?

Should he have been sacked the season United finished 11th?

If not why not?

Nope. Ferguson had the task of not just transforming United's fortunes but the culture of the club itself. The likes of McGrath and Whiteside, great though they were, embodied a poisonous drinking culture that was not conducive towards success.

Thus United were right to stick with Fergie because his task was to change United from top to bottom which required time.

eagle eye wrote:

Does Benitez deserve the same amount of time that was given to Ferguson?

If not why not?

Benitez took over a side from Houllier which already had the foundations there for success. He did not face anywhere near the grave challenges behind the scenes that Fergie did. Pool had the groundwork there thanks to Houllier. Even Carragher has said one of the teams he played in, which I think finished second, was the best team he'd played with.

That to me is the big difference. It puzzles me how Liverpool fans can compare Rafa's situation to Fergie's when the team Fergie took over needed massive transformation in terms of not just staff but the actual mindset of the team.

eagle eye

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Nope. Ferguson had the task of not just transforming United's fortunes but the culture of the club itself. The likes of McGrath and Whiteside, great though they were, embodied a poisonous drinking culture that was not conducive towards success.

Thus United were right to stick with Fergie because his task was to change United from top to bottom which required time.

Ferguson took over a team which had finished second the season before he came. Yes I know they got off to a bad start in 86. You name McGrath and Whiteside, thats two out of a hugely talented panel. He got rid of the drinkers very quickly, but still in 1990 they finished 13th in the league. Thats four year after his arrival. Going back to 86, If my memory serves me right he had two talented full backs in Albiston and Duxbury, a decent keeper in Gary Bailey, Kevin Moran at Centre Half, Bryan Robson in midfield, Gordon Strachan, Jesper Olsen and Frank Stapleton. I'm sure I'm forgetting others but these were all top class players back then. He inherited a fantastic panel of players.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Benitez took over a side from Houllier which already had the foundations there for success. He did not face anywhere near the grave challenges behind the scenes that Fergie did. Pool had the groundwork there thanks to Houllier. Even Carragher has said one of the teams he played in, which I think finished second, was the best team he'd played with.

That to me is the big difference. It puzzles me how Liverpool fans can compare Rafa's situation to Fergie's when the team Fergie took over needed massive transformation in terms of not just staff but the actual mindset of the team.

There was a huge overhaul required at Liverpool. Do you expect us to believe that Liverpool sacked Houllier because everything was hunky dory? I don't think so.
As I said previously it can be argued that United had the groundwork laid but Ferguson chose to build a team the way he wanted it, Benitez is the same as Ferguson he likes to do things his way. His success at Valencia both with a team which had many of Cuper's players and then again later on with a team he built himself proves that he has what it takes.
Therfore imo he deserves the time to get the club running the way he wants it to run just like Ferguson got all the time in the world at United.

jesus_thats_gre

Is there any resources online that shows the transfers, in and out, made by Chelsea since Ambramovich bought them?

lordgoat

eagle eye wrote: »

There was a huge overhaul required at Liverpool. Do you expect us to believe that Liverpool sacked Houllier because everything was hunky dory? I don't think so.
As I said previously it can be argued that United had the groundwork laid but Ferguson chose to build a team the way he wanted it, Benitez is the same as Ferguson he likes to do things his way. His success at Valencia both with a team which had many of Cuper's players and then again later on with a team he built himself proves that he has what it takes.
Therfore imo he deserves the time to get the club running the way he wants it to run just like Ferguson got all the time in the world at United.

There's not much difference in Houlliers best 11 and Saint Rafa's. To compare Benitez to ferguson is quite a bit off the mark as well.

Mitch Connor

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Is there any resources online that shows the transfers, in and out, made by Chelsea since Ambramovich bought them?

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/

MementoMori

Just to update this

Summer 2009 Dealings

Players Out
Alonso £30m
Arbeloa £3.5m
Leto £3m
Hammill £500k
Hobbs £300k (Received £400k but there was a sell-on clause)
Anderson £250k
Hyypia 0
Pennant 0
Total In £37.55m

Players In
Johnson £17m
Aquilani £17m
Kyrgiakos £2m
Chris Mavinga - minimal training compensation
Aaron King - minimal training compensation
Jesus Fernandez - minimal training compensation
Total out £36m

Net Profit £1.55m

Mavinga went into the reserves and Fernandez and King into the Academy so I don't think they should be used when comparing with other teams spending.
Also the fingers involved are unlikely to be much in terms of transfer fees with Mavinga 18, and King and Fernandez 16.

Mr Alan

pretty sure Alonsos fee rises to 34m

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/8184444.stm

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/0804/alonsox.html

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/breaking-news/2009/08/04/liverpool-fc-agree-fee-for-xabi-alonso-liverpool-fc-latest-news-100252-24316295/

MementoMori

Mr Alan wrote: »

pretty sure Alonsos fee rises to 34m

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/8184444.stm

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2009/0804/alonsox.html

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/breaking-news/2009/08/04/liverpool-fc-agree-fee-for-xabi-alonso-liverpool-fc-latest-news-100252-24316295/

I just use the actual fee as tracking add-ons is just too tricky in most cases.

Mr Alan

but virtually every transfer in this day & age is inclusive of add ons & performance related payments?

MementoMori

Mr Alan wrote: »

but virtually every transfer in this day & age is inclusive of add ons & performance related payments?

I know but in the majority of cases the prices quoted do tend to be ex of the add-ons. Given there is an element of uncertainty about transfer fees anyway, I'm ok with this. Also it's easier.:D

Mr Alan

but i think you either use the fees incl potential add on's, or you don't.

for example as far as i know the fees for Aquilani & Johnson (Aquilani especially) is heavily based on future add on's etc. yet you've quoted the full fee in your listing incl potential add ons, but then when it comes to Alonso you've quoted the fee excl add ons.

ah well either way! we all know Rafa is pants in the transfer market

MementoMori

Just wanted to update this to include Hyppia to give a comprehensive account of the value of the players at the club when Rafa took over and to show that people who talk about Rafa being a poor judge of players are slightly misinformed.

This is the list of the players who have been sold who were at the club before Rafa arrived

2004
Markus Babbel £0m - In a sense very unlucky with his illness
Danny Murphy £2.5m - Looks like a pretty poor price now
Michael Owen £8m - Coco the clown - deal done before Rafa arrived
Emile Heskey £6.25m - Looks like a poor price now

2005
Antonio Nunez £1.5m - Legacy of the Owen deal more Coco the clown magic
Milan Baros £6.5m - Looks a reasonable price
Diouf £4m - Looks like a poor price now
Smicer £0m
Henchoz £0m
Alou Diarra £2m

2006
Kirkland £3m - Always thought we should have got more
Mellor £500k - Could have got more looks fair now though
Traore £2m - No comment
Hamman £0 - Shocking
Morientes £3m - Probably fair
Cheyrou £0 - No comment

2007
Dudek £0 - Free to Real Madrid. Gah!
Zenden £0 -Arrived on a free, left on a free
Cisse £6m - Doesnt look like we got value here - broken leg didnt help
Diao £0m - No comment
Warnock £1.5m - Looks like a bit of a bargain given what Villa paid this summer (£6.5m plus £1.5m in add-ons)
Sinama-Pongolle £2.7m - Probably about fair

2008
Le Tallec £1m - Just glad to get anything
Kewell £0m - No comment
Riise £4m - A decent price in a sale :eek:
Finnan £2m - Looks like a stroke of genius with his injury

2009
Hyppia £0m - I don't think anyone can find fault with this one.

I said it already but in general the price we received for a lot of thes players were pretty poor. I'm hopeful that with Parry gone things should improve a fair bit. One has to wonder how exactly Parry would have done if he had been handling the sale of Alonso. Probably would have gotten 100 Real Madrid shirts with Ronaldo on the back.:eek:

Anyway the total is £56.45m for 27 players or just over an average of £2m.
Even allowing for bad luck with regard injuries/sickness (Babbel/Diouf) as well as not doing great with regard to letting players go for free, combined with wiht being poor at achieving decent prices for some players, it's clear to see the squad wasn't in great shape when Rafa took over.

Now lets have a look at the updated list of players Rafa has bought and sold during his time at the club.

Garcia £6m £4m
Nunez £0m £1.5m
Pellegrino £0m £0m
Josemi £2m £0m
Kronkamp £0m £2m
Morientes£6.3m £3m
Carson £.75m £3.25
Zenden £0m £0m
Barragan £0m £680,000
Gonzalez £4.5m £4.2m
Sissoko £5.6m £8.2m
Crouch £7m £11m
Bellamy £6m £7.5m
Paletta £2m £1.5m
Pennant £6.7m £0m
Keane £19m £16m
Alonso £10.5m £30m
Arbeloa £2.6m £3.5m
Leto £1.85m £3m

Rafa has made a profit of £18.53m on players he brought into the club and subsequently sold.

While there were undoubtedly "flops" the only ones you could classify as such were the following

Pennant (net cost £6.7m) - Did help win a CL so even for Rafa's worst flop still got some use out of him.
Keane (net cost £3m) - Keane is an unusal case but to summarise for those who don' know any better - [The initial fee was £19m plus £1.3m in add-ons. When he was sold back to Spurs the basic fee was £12m with £4m in add-ons as long as Spurs didnt get relegated plus another £3m in the more standard add-ons. Depending on how Spurs do over the next few seasons/how Keane performs in terms of playing matches/scoring goals, there is a reasonable possibility of getting nearly all of the £19m paid for him initially back, with £16m already received.] As such he doesn't look likw quite the masive flop some people would have you think.
Morientes (net cost £3.3m) - The move to England didn't work out. Still managed to recoup £3m so not a total disaster.
Josemi (net cost £3m) - Has to be considered a flop

While there are a couple of others in there who didnt set the Premier League alight, Rafa didn't exactly lose much money on these. (Gonzalez, Paletta) There were a lot more who were stepping stone players who Rafa moved on at a profit in order to buy better players. (Bellamy, Sissoko, Carson). Alonso stands out as a player who was integral to the team who was moved on for significant profit [I don't think it's necessary to rehash the ins and outs of his sale, the relevant point here is that when he was sold he was moved on for approximately £20m in profit]

There is also the key fact that the squad is in much stronger shape than when Rafa took over and there are a number of players in the current squad who would realise a fair bit more than was paid for them if they were to be sold. There are also very few players who you would expect to see significantly negative returns if they were sold on in the next while.
I would say only Babel and Dossena are the only two who you would expect to realise less than 80% of their cost if they were sold today. This is more than balanced by the vast majority of the players who if they were sold would realise a profit. There is also the fact that there are a number of the youth players (a fair few who have arrived at the club under Rafa's auspices)who even if they don't make the grade at Liverpool over the next few years are likely to recoup a decent profit in terms of being sold on.

In general I think if you look at the facts, it is inescapable that Rafa is up there with the very best when it comes to the transfer market.

Mr Alan

when getting rid of Palletta, wasn't it a straight swap for Insua?

now thats a great piece of business!

MementoMori

Mr Alan wrote: »

but i think you either use the fees incl potential add on's, or you don't.

for example as far as i know the fees for Aquilani & Johnson (Aquilani especially) is heavily based on future add on's etc. yet you've quoted the full fee in your listing incl potential add ons, but then when it comes to Alonso you've quoted the fee excl add ons.

ah well either way! we all know Rafa is pants in the transfer market

Aquilani's fee is broken down into a number of installments and add-ons(something like pay €6m this year, €4m next year, €4m year after , €3m year after €3m year after) Basically there is a total of €20m basic, the payment of which is spread out over the next 4/5 years. These are not add-ons as they are not dependent on anything. This €20m (equivalent to £17m) must be paid even if he never plays for Liverpool. There are also add-ons to the value of
£3m which will fall due when certain events occur. Typically theseare probably the usual mix of player appearances, player scoring(moreso this one for strikers) and the club acheiving things (winning the league, winning the CL, qualifying for Europe). However the fact is that we owe Roma this £17m no matter what plus possibly the additional £3m dependent on various circumstances. I have a link to the Roma page which showed the breakdown in detail (Hurrah for whatever regulation forces the Italian clubs to do this - I think it's a stock exchange thing - was also how Riise's transfer fee was confirned) but I'm not arsed tracking it down at the moment.

{Given Aquilani's injury record I'm pretty sure the club is insured so that if he picks up an injury in his first game and his career is over, the club would received a large pay-out which would go a fair bit towards covering the payments to Roma}

Also to be more than scruplously fair I don't generally include any of the add-ons Livepool might receive (unless I'm pretty much 100% they will/have been paid a la Keane) but in most cases where it isn't clear what amount of add-ons in a deal, I will include the overall figure Liverpool have to pay. For instance I'm pretty sure that at least some of Johnson's price is add-ons but I didn't see any reports which even hinted at this. Better to play it safe on this I think.

MementoMori

Mr Alan wrote: »

when getting rid of Palletta, wasn't it a straight swap for Insua?

now thats a great piece of business!

Fup off with the questions :mad::mad::mad:
I have simplified some of the stuff especially the swap deals for clarity/ease in my own records. None of the overall accuracy has been comprimised.:D

I did see a rumour that due to Insua getting called up to the Argies senior squad we might owe some add-ons - I don't think it's anything massive money but it's Just another example of how tricky trying to track add-ons would be.

Mr Alan

sorry, i'll leave you alone now!

8-10

MementoMori wrote: »

Pennant (net cost £6.7m) - Did help win a CL so even for Rafa's worst flop still got some use out of him.

Helped win a CL for who? AC Milan won that final if you recall!

Morzadec

MementoMori wrote: »

Pennant (net cost £6.7m) - Did help win a CL so even for Rafa's worst flop still got some use out of him.

Pennant wasn't there in Istanbul was he? He was very good in the 2007 final though.

Interesting analysis.

My brief conclusion would be as follows:

-Has Rafa made mistakes in the transfer market? Yes.

-Has Rafa done a good job in the transfer market, given the rescources? Definitely Yes.

-Has Rafa made any high value transfer mistakes? Debatable. Keane obviously springs to mind but the fact we got most of the money back. Nevertheless we made a decent loss and missed out on the opportunity to but another player for that season, which may have slightly hurt us. (also debatable whther he was Rafa's signing). If Dossena at £7m counts as 'high value' (Idon't really think he does) then this was a bad signing. For Babel, time will tell but so far he has to be seen as a bad signing.

-Has Rafa had success in the transfer market when able to spend larger amounts of cash?
Yes. Johnson already looks well worth the fee which I will admit appeared overpriced. We'll see about Aquilani, but Rafa has brought in some top players who may have been viewed as somewhat 'unproven' (certainly in the PL) given the amount we were spending. Some of these players' market values would now be double or treble the amount Rafa paid for them - Mascherano, Kuyt, Alonso (Obviously gone now but trebled our money on him), Torres.


I think this last point is the most important to take into account regarding Rafa in the transfer market. There was a lot of debate about Glen Johnson in the summer and whether he was worth £17m, and there was a lot of people laughing at Rafa for spending what appeared to be an inflated fee. Meanwhile, most people who regularly watch Liverpool and know Rafa and the way he likes his teams to play felt that Johnson (while overpriced somewhat) was a great addition to our team. This is what I posted the day Johnson was confirmed:-


Originally posted by Morzadec:
'Wow very shocked, didn't think we would pay such an inflated figure.

However I trust Rafa in his transfer dealings, and if he is willing to spend such a figure on Johnson this could be taken as an indication that our transfer budget is higher than many of us (including me) expected. Which is great news.

Time will tell if it was a good deal. If I have one criticism of Arbeloa it was that he is lightweight/weak, and Johnson certainly isn't, he's a tank. I just felt that Arbeloa linked up very well with Kuyt and Gerrard on the right-hand side and rarely gave the ball away. Let's hope Johnson can continue this and add a bit more crossing quality/attacking threat.

Many have pointed to his defensive frailties. I can't say I've seen enough of Portsmouth playing to comment on this, but I would assume this is maybe what comes with being a very attacking fullback. If anyone saw Alves playing for Brazil last night, they were demonstrating how far up the pitch he was at all times and how it left Brazil completely exposed at the back. Yet no one would doubt Alves's quality. The RTE lads were saying that when you play with fullbacks so high up, you need a holding midfielder, which Brazil did not employ last night.

We have Alonso and, more specifically, Mascherano as holding mids. I have said before that Rafa seems to want the main width of his team to come from the full-backs. He wants attacking full-backs, and it will be attacking qualities, pace and the ability to get forward which will be prioritised. Johnson certainly has these attributes, and I feel he is the ideal mould of player to fit into our system. I think this is what Rafa is thinking and why he is prepared to pay over-the-odds.

I'll be dissappointed if Arbeloa leaves, and I still think 18m is too much for Johnson. But I could name a hell of a lot of other transfers that have been inflated. The nature of the market has changed. Fans are often complaining that we don't splash out, and don't compete with other clubs in the transfer market. But Johnson's signing (whether you agree with it or not) at least shows we are doing that.'

The point here is that when Rafa has been allowed to 'overspend' is when our squad really improves. It's similar to United 'overspending' on Carrick - his price seemed inflated but he really improved their squad.

Rafa's failings have been when he's been forced to buy cheap players as our budget has fallen way short of the needs of our squad. He's had some success here too obviously, but it's so much harder to find top players when forced to only spend £5m or so. How many players do you think Rafa felt he needed to buy when he took over, or even after Istanbul? Possibly over 10.

Now? It's a case of more quality depth in one or two positions. Rafa's funds won't have to be scattered across so many players. And if he is properly funded, his success rate can only improve.

So with this in mind I'll conclude with this question:

Can we expect Rafa's transfer dealings in the future to be successful?

I would be very confident of a yes if the appropriate funds are given.

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

can you not read? where did i say that? I stated a fact. That he's nearing a rush record.

we need a goal sharpish.

first of all. kyut has played 10 more games all ready in europe compared to rush.

the format of the competitions are totally different now to what they were when rush played.

it's an irrelevant point.

how many goals has gerrard got 27/28? twice rushes record so what does that say? stevie g is twice the striker rush was? LOL

your point is TOTALLY irrelevant.

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

first of all. kyut has played 10 more games all ready in europe compared to rush.

the format of the competitions are totally different now to what they were when rush played.

it's an irrelevant point.

how many goals has gerrard got 27/28? twice rushes record so what does that say? stevie g is twice the striker rush was? LOL

your point is TOTALLY irrelevant.

you saying he's mediocre at CL level is plain INCORRECT.

He's scored in every round of the competition

monkey9

ntlbell wrote: »

your point is TOTALLY irrelevant.

It doesn't really stop you though, does it?

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

you saying he's mediocre at CL level is plain INCORRECT.

He's scored in every round of the competition

he's medicore regardless of what he's playing in.

his touch is awful

his decision making is awful.

his passing is awful

his close control is awful.

his tackling is awful.

the fact a few goals have gone in off his shin doesn't change that fact.

he is mediocre.

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

he's medicore regardless of what he's playing in.

his touch is awful

his decision making is awful.

his passing is awful

his close control is awful.

his tackling is awful.

the fact a few goals have gone in off his shin doesn't change that fact.

he is mediocre.

I can only shake my head at such a moronic post

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

he's medicore regardless of what he's playing in.

his touch is awful

his decision making is awful.

his passing is awful

his close control is awful.

his tackling is awful.

the fact a few goals have gone in off his shin doesn't change that fact.

he is mediocre.

that post stinks of a massive shoulder chip

ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol, that post is awful.

----

Best team on the night won, no question. Poor performance in many different respects, and once we went two down in that environment it was always going to be tough. Not much else to say, nights like this will come along every so often.

maybe you could address one or two of the points?

how do you rate his first touch compared to other players in the same league?

....

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

maybe you could address one or two of the points?

how do you rate his first touch compared to other players in the same league?

....

allow me . . .



his touch is average

his decision making is very good

his passing is good

his close control is decent

his tackling is good

.
.
.

His crossing is very good
His work-rate is excellent
His finishing is pretty good

(or do those stats not matter?)

Put it this way - i'd much rather him than Antonio "step-over" and run to corner" Valencia

LuckyLloyd

ntlbell wrote: »

maybe you could address one or two of the points?

lol, delusionaments

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

allow me . . .



his touch is average

his decision making is very good

his passing is good

his close control is decent

his tackling is good

.
.
.

His crossing is very good
His work-rate is excellent
His finishing is pretty good

(or do those stats not matter?)

Put it this way - i'd much rather him than Antonio "step-over" and run to corner" Valencia

decsiion making is very good? lol it's TERRIBLE. there was numerous examples tonight.

if his close control was good he wouldn't constantly fall over the ball, seriously, i'm not takin the piddle here but i enjoy watching him for the comical side of his game.

his work-rate is EXCELLENT.

but as our man tony said there what good is it when everything else is so bad?

tony's right he wouldn't get near the first 11 in any other top club

ntlbell

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol, delusionaments

lol i'll avoid tackling any of the points because your right NTL lolz

LuckyLloyd

ntlbell wrote: »

lol i'll avoid tackling any of the points because your right NTL lolz

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

tony's right he wouldn't get near the first 11 in any other top club

well he's better than Park.
He's better than Nani
He's better than Valencia.
He gets in the Dutch team
He'd get in the United team.

8-10

ntlbell wrote: »

tony's right he wouldn't get near the first 11 in any other top club

He's near, pretty much in, first 11 in a pretty rampant Dutch side, ranked 3rd in the world is it?