Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

well he's better than Park.
He's better than Nani
He's better than Valencia.
He gets in the Dutch team
He'd get in the United team.

park is not first choice.

nor is valencia

nor is nani.

so you pick 3 sqaud players to put him up against? LOL

you make this so easy.

ntlbell

8-10 wrote: »

He's near, pretty much in, first 11 in a pretty rampant Dutch side, ranked 3rd in the world is it?

so is babel

maybe you're on to something.

Tusky

I'm simply amazed that people still speak to ntbell and his kind. Seriously. Amazed. What a waste of time.

Step away from your keyboards and go do something more productive.

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

park is not first choice.

nor is valencia

nor is nani.

so you pick 3 sqaud players to put him up against? LOL

you make this so easy.

Who's your first choice RW?

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

Who's your first choice RW?

depends, who's the opposition left back?

whatawaster

ntlbell wrote: »

depends, who's the opposition left back?

it's either Park, Nani or Valencia.

And your reply to my above post where you said i made it too "easy" by picking those players makes it clear you know Kuyt is better than all of them.

night night

ntlbell

whatawaster wrote: »

it's either Park, Nani or Valencia.

And your reply to my above post where you said i made it too "easy" by picking those players makes it clear you know Kuyt is better than all of them.

night night

huh?

try count how many players this season alone the amount of players who at some stage played on the RW

count, name, and come back

k/thnx/bai

8-10

ntlbell wrote: »

so is babel

maybe you're on to something.

Nah, he didn't even get in their last squad, that's why there was talk of him going on loan. I reckon Elia is ahead of him now so he's 3rd choice at best in his position.

He needs games to get anywhere near the first 11, trust me! (still hoping for an Ajax loan deal come Jan....fingers all crossed!)

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

park is not first choice.

nor is valencia

nor is nani.

so you pick 3 sqaud players to put him up against? LOL

you make this so easy.

Valancia and Nani can't cement a permanent RW place.

That speaks volumes in fairness.

PS all your posts are B0llix

therecklessone

While I moved the off-topic player critique to this thread it wasn't so you could lose all sense and start to act like 5 year olds, so unless you are able and willing to interact like adults I suggest you all take a voluntary break from the soccer forum for the rest of the evening before I make it an involuntary one.

ntlbell

rarnes1 wrote: »

Valancia and Nani can't cement a permanent RW place.

That speaks volumes in fairness.

PS all your posts are B0llix

sorry just saw post

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

i'd add in a third role here.

our american owners; its their job to provide the financial support needed for our manager to bring the club forward.

are they doing that? no they are not.

They claim they have and that is supported by the figures. Before the yanks took over Liverpool spent on average £10 million per season on transfers., since they took over that average has risen to over £ 15 million per season.

To claim Rafa has not been given financial support is plainly wrong. He hasn't been given a bottomless pit but he has been given considerable money to spend.

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

They claim they have and that is supported by the figures. Before the yanks took over Liverpool spent on average £10 million per season on transfers., since they took over that average has risen to over £ 15 million per season.

To claim Rafa has not been given financial support is plainly wrong. He hasn't been given a bottomless pit but he has been given considerable money to spend.

Rafa’s average spend per season is around £14million.
That’s very similar to United, less than Spurs, I think less than Villa, not much more than Sunderland, a lot less than Chelsea and City.
Why isn’t he judged by the same standards as Martin O’Neill?

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

To claim Rafa has not been given financial support is plainly wrong. He hasn't been given a bottomless pit but he has been given considerable money to spend.

How much was he given this season muppet?

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

Rafa’s average spend per season is around £14million.
That’s very similar to United, less than Spurs, I think less than Villa, not much more than Sunderland, a lot less than Chelsea and City.
Why isn’t he judged by the same standards as Martin O’Neill?

No it's not, it's higher than everyones with the obvious exception of Chelsea and City.

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

How much was he given this season muppet?

Since the yanks took over he has had plenty of money to spend, £69 million in season one £39 million in season two and £36 million so far this season. How that level of spending can be classed as unsupportive is strange.

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

Since the yanks took over he has had plenty of money to spend, £69 million in season one £39 million in season two and £36 million so far this season. How that level of spending can be classed as unsupportive is strange.

£36 million spent on transfers lets say approx
£36 million gained on transfers lets say approx

NET Spend = approx 0
Money put into transfers this season by Owners approx 0

The Muppet

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

£36 million spent on transfers lets say approx
£36 million gained on transfers lets say approx

NET Spend = approx 0
Money put into transfers this season by Owners approx 0

Hasn't purslow said Rafa was given £28 million of new money this season? £36 million to spend is a lot of money irrespective of the source, if the yanks were as unsupportive as claimed thay could have pocketed that money.

The club is a business and like any business it hast to be able to generated the revenue to pay it's costs. He can't be given £70 million every year.

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

Hasn't purslow said Rafa was given £28 million of new money this season?

Do you want to go through the figures again?
By any stretch of the imagination where would you get +28 mil net?

The Muppet

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

Do you want to go through the figures again?
By any stretch of the imagination where would you get +28 mil net?

They are not my figures , they are official club figures, purslow being the source.

NukaCola

The Muppet wrote: »

They are not my figures , they are official club figures, purslow being the source.

I think the transfer funds take into account legal fees and contracts also. Maybe wrong on that however if 28 mil was made available this year it certainly wasn't a net figure....

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

Hasn't purslow said Rafa was given £28 million of new money this season? £36 million to spend is a lot of money irrespective of the source, if the yanks were as unsupportive as claimed thay could have pocketed that money.

The club is a business and like any business it hast to be able to generated the revenue to pay it's costs. He can't be given £70 million every year.

He’s including contract renewals for existing players, signing on fees, agent fees etc.

The kind of thing that we add on to no other clubs transfer fees. So for arguments sake here, we have to leave them out.

I don’t know how anyone could argue that we’ve spent any significant money on transfers this summer.
Alonso out – widely reported to be for an initial 30m
Arbeloa out – around 3.5 million

Johnson in – around 17m
Aquilani in – around 17m (confirmed by Roma)
Kyriakos in – around 2 million

Liverpool sold a few youths and bought one or two as well. That all adds up to a quite immaterial transfer spend.
If we apply to Liverpool the same transfer spend criteria we do to United, Arsenal and everyone else then I don’t see how anyone could say we spend money in the summer.

Boggles

Which players got new contracts this season?

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Which players got new contracts this season?

I think – Yossi, Torres, Gerrard, Carragher, Kuyt, Agger?

deadhead13

The Muppet wrote: »

They are not my figures , they are official club figures, purslow being the source.

I vaguely remember you posting, not so long ago, in this thread that putting players contract extensions into the transfer budget does seem underhand. But now you are ignoring that because it doesn't suit your agenda of trying to wind people up.

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

I don’t know how anyone could argue that we’ve spent any significant money on transfers this summer.
Alonso out – widely reported to be for an initial 30m
Arbeloa out – around 3.5 million

Johnson in – around 17m
Aquilani in – around 17m (confirmed by Roma)
Kyriakos in – around 2 million

That's £36 million spent , thats significant money. I see your point that he recouped that from sales but as I said earlier the yanks could have pocketed the money.


To be fair and to get a realistic picture of whats happening you cant just take half of one season in isolation and base an opinion on that. There is another transfer window this season, Rafa may have funds available for that, we don't know.

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

That's £36 million spent , thats significant money. I see your point that he recouped that from sales but as I said earlier the yanks could have pocketed the money.


To be fair and to get a realistic picture of whats happening you cant just take half of one season in isolation and base an opinion on that. There is another transfer window this season, Rafa may have funds available for that, we don't know.

He may do, but based on the last few transfer windows, he probably won’t.

And to say he spent 36million is completely accurate, but SO misleading. It doesn’t tell you the substance of the situation.
If you buy two cars for a total of €50,000, but sold your existing car for €50,000, are you going to tell the wife you went out and spent €50K of your hard-earned money on automobiles? Of course not.

daithijjj

whatawaster wrote: »

I think – Yossi, Torres, Gerrard, Carragher, Kuyt, Agger?

I dont want a whole debate over this but all of the signing on fees etc for those players contracts will be taken from 'transfer money' available. Its going to be a handsome sum considering who is included in there.

Now, i know folk dont like it but has it ever occurred to you that benitez may have held onto some of his 'projected money' for whatever reason?, maybe the manager didnt find the right player or if he did, he wasnt available? Maybe hes had enough of the 'dossena's' and is biding his time for a serious aquisition? (stated in hope more than fact). Like it or not (or just ignore it), i dont think it was the best time to be going for players this past summer, city had the cash to splash and artificial inflation more than likely took over as players agents swooned over the potential treasure to be found at the feet of the sheik. Maybe, just maybe, rafa got the players he wanted and the talk/rumour of others joining simply wasnt a viable option on the table. I just think next summer will be a better indication of who is being backed and who isnt. With a world cup coming up, potential targets may not have wanted to move this summer, preferring to wait 12 months before starting a new footballing life somewhere else.

tok9

daithijjj wrote: »

I dont want a whole debate over this but all of the signing on fees etc for those players contracts will be taken from 'transfer money' available. Its going to be a handsome sum considering who is included in there.

Now, i know folk dont like it but has it ever occurred to you that benitez may have held onto some of his 'projected money' for whatever reason?, maybe the manager didnt find the right player or if he did, he wasnt available? Maybe hes had enough of the 'dossena's' and is biding his time for a serious aquisition? (stated in hope more than fact). Like it or not (or just ignore it), i dont think it was the best time to be going for players this past summer, city had the cash to splash and artificial inflation more than likely took over as players agents swooned over the potential treasure to be found at the feet of the sheik. Maybe, just maybe, rafa got the players he wanted and the talk/rumour of others joining simply wasnt a viable option on the table. I just think next summer will be a better indication of who is being backed and who isnt. With a world cup coming up, potential targets may not have wanted to move this summer, preferring to wait 12 months before starting a new footballing life somewhere else.

I was thinking the same myself... good point!

whatawaster

daithijjj wrote: »

I dont want a whole debate over this but all of the signing on fees etc for those players contracts will be taken from 'transfer money' available. Its going to be a handsome sum considering who is included in there.

Now, i know folk dont like it but has it ever occurred to you that benitez may have held onto some of his 'projected money' for whatever reason?, maybe the manager didnt find the right player or if he did, he wasnt available? Maybe hes had enough of the 'dossena's' and is biding his time for a serious aquisition? (stated in hope more than fact). Like it or not (or just ignore it), i dont think it was the best time to be going for players this past summer, city had the cash to splash and artificial inflation more than likely took over as players agents swooned over the potential treasure to be found at the feet of the sheik. Maybe, just maybe, rafa got the players he wanted and the talk/rumour of others joining simply wasnt a viable option on the table. I just think next summer will be a better indication of who is being backed and who isnt. With a world cup coming up, potential targets may not have wanted to move this summer, preferring to wait 12 months before starting a new footballing life somewhere else.

Possible, given that there were very strong indications that he wanted Tevez and Silva at earlier stages in the summer.
What is most likely though, is that with the loan refinancing, the playing field and his transfer budget changed.

But those contract renewals aren’t completely unexpected costs.
Any club is going to have to expect to renew the contracts of around 25-30% of their players in any given year. If they have any decent accountants doing up these budgets they’ll be completely separate from transfer spending.

daithijjj

whatawaster wrote: »

Possible, given that there were very strong indications that he wanted Tevez and Silva at earlier stages in the summer.
What is most likely though, is that with the loan refinancing, the playing field and his transfer budget changed.

But those contract renewals aren’t completely unexpected costs.
Any club is going to have to expect to renew the contracts of around 25-30% of their players in any given year. If they have any decent accountants doing up these budgets they’ll be completely separate from transfer spending.

Point taken. However, it wasnt just any players that were having contracts renewed. I wouldnt pretend to know anything behind the scenes but maybe the goalposts changed if a 'huge' bid did come in for torres or (insert any conundrum in here). Maybe the boss preferred to then spend any 'loose cash' on making these players sign serious deals/extensions. I think agger and torres got a nice wedge this summer personally. Looking at who did sign new deals, we are basically talking about 75% of our attacking quartet who start week after week after week, 2 of them being amongst the most coveted/valuable in the world.

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

If you buy two cars for a total of €50,000, but sold your existing car for €50,000, are you going to tell the wife you went out and spent €50K of your hard-earned money on automobiles? Of course not.

I like the analagy. I mightn't tell the wife but that wouldn't alter the fact that I would have spent 50 K. Thats the point I am making, I am not trying to justify the way purslow calculated the figures.

Rafa in his time at Liverpool has recieved a lot of money to spend, this point tends to be overlooked at times.

Mr Alan

Muppet, you are right, Rafa has received money. Now, move on. You're clinging onto something that no one is arguing against, everyone knows Rafa has been given some money.

But in the last couple of seasons, his net has been practically zero. By anyones standards, this is unacceptable from our owners when they/the fans expectation is for the league to be won, a team thats been dominating the PL for the last 20 years to be overthrown & the noveau rich to be beaten. Very strange & totally unfair.

Rafa is doing wonders somehow moving us forward under the financial restrictions he's been working under (note: i said "restrictions", not that he has had zero money) & this is without even mentioning the embarrasing mismanagement of the team at board room level.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

Muppet, you are right, Rafa has received money. Now, move on. You're clinging onto something that no one is arguing against, everyone knows Rafa has been given some money.

That's not what you said earlier, You said the the owners had given him no support. That's clearly not true.

Mr Alan wrote: »

But in the last couple of seasons, his net has been practically zero. By anyones standards, this is unacceptable from our owners when they/the fans expectation is for the league to be won, a team thats been dominating the PL for the last 20 years to be overthrown & the noveau rich to be beaten. Very strange & totally unfair.

Last season net was £6 million his overall spending was £39 million thats a lot of money. This season is only hafway through his net is £1 million his spending so far is £36 million , again thats a lot of money.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Rafa is doing wonders somehow moving us forward under the financial restrictions he's been working under (note: i said "restrictions", not that he has had zero money) & this is without even mentioning the embarrasing mismanagement of the team at board room level.

£75 million spent on new players in the last two season, the team appeared to be improving, they were fantastic in the run in to the title last year, has this seasons team improved on that? It's too early to say but the early indications are that it has not.

If you consider the five years rafa has been in charge or the three years since the yanks took over , he has recieved a lot of support from the owners.

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

Last season net was £6 million his overall spending was £39 million thats a lot of money. This season is only hafway through his net is £1 million his spending so far is £36 million , again thats a lot of money.




£75 million spent on new players in the last two season, the team appeared to be improving, they were fantastic in the run in to the title last year, has this seasons team improved on that? It's too early to say but the early indications are that it has not.

you are still making misleading statements.
Saying things like that implies that there is no difference between a manager who spends 200m and recoups 200m and a manager who spends 200m and recoups 0m

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

If you consider the five years rafa has been in charge or the three years since the yanks took over , he has recieved a lot of support from the owners.

this is just 100% incorrect. if you firmly believe this, lets just end the conversation cause you're obviously on a wind up.

you yourself gave the figures of net spend 1m & 6m (i think they're generous, but i'll accept them) in the last 2 seasons, you think those kind of figures are the kind of thing that a team needs to go from CL qualification to winning the league? honestly....

oh & as for the person wanting to know how they are being mismanaged at boardroom level, try your owners publically throwing mud at eachother, or one owner publically slating the MD, the other owner defending him & refusing to back the call for his resignation, try admitting that you've tried to get someone with no relevant experience to replace one of europes most respected managers because of good contacts this new canditate has in the marketing world....and that's without even mentioning the stadium & constant lies.

Karmafaerie

The Muppet wrote: »

I like the analagy. I mightn't tell the wife but that wouldn't alter the fact that I would have spent 50 K. Thats the point I am making, I am not trying to justify the way purslow calculated the figures.

Rafa in his time at Liverpool has recieved a lot of money to spend, this point tends to be overlooked at times.

I give you 2 apples.
You then swap one of those apples for another apple.
Does that mean that I gave you 3 apples?

No.

Simple enoughh?

Killme00

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I give you 2 apples.
You then swap one of those apples for another apple.
Does that mean that I gave you 3 apples?

No.

Simple enoughh?

Are all apples equal?

Some apples are more equal than others.

Karmafaerie

Killme00 wrote: »

Again, how has the TEAM been mismanaged at boardroom level? Management of the team lies directly at the feet of the manager not the muppets in the boardroom.

Garreth Barry, Alves, Vidic, Malouda, etc not being signed.
As Parry thought they were too expensive (at in most cases a fraction of what they eventualy were sold for).

Robbie Keane and as much as I hate to say it Babel being signed aginst Rafa's wishes.

Kess73

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I give you 2 apples.
You then swap one of those apples for another apple.
Does that mean that I gave you 3 apples?

No.

Simple enoughh?

It would mean you gave him two apples, that he currently has two apples, but has had three different apples overall.


And that one of the apples you gave him must have been a bit off as he had to get rid of it for another apple.

So the question must be why did you give him a bad apple?

flahavaj

Would you swap an apple for an orange Karma, I'm a bit peckish?

missingtime

flahavaj wrote: »

Would you swap an apple for an orange Karma, I'm a bit peckish?

No lemons...we've had plenty of them already.

Dublin_Gunner

missingtime wrote: »

No lemons...we've had plenty of them already.

Don't worry, its all apples and oranges anyway...

Karmafaerie

flahavaj wrote: »

Would you swap an apple for an orange Karma, I'm a bit peckish?

You'd have to ask Rick Parry, he arranges everything.
Unfortunately he's on holidays at the moment.

The Muppet

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I give you 2 apples.
You then swap one of those apples for another apple.
Does that mean that I gave you 3 apples?

No.

Simple enoughh?

I don't even like apples:) If I gave you 2 apples and you sold those two apples for the price of one apple, would I give you any more apples?

Karmafaerie

The Muppet wrote: »

I don't even like apples:) If I gave you 2 apples and you sold those two apples for the price of one apple, would I give you any more apples?

Well if you gave me two apples and I sold them and bought you Torres (tripled in value), Mascherano (doubled in value), Agger (doubled in value), Reina (tripled in value), Alonso (sold for more than 3 times what he was bought for), Insua (more than tripled in value), Crouch (sold at a profit), Sissoko (sold a a profit), Bellamy (sold at a profit) etc, I'd hazzard a quick guess that you'd be pretty damn happy.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

Where did these valuations comne form they all look on the optimistc side to me ? Even if they were right it's still only one in five making a profit, I'd be keeping my apples than you.

they are just the most extreme examples picked. and the valuations were on the conservative side if anything.

overall, unless i'm mistaken, Rafa has rarely lost money on players brought in.

your 1 in 5 is almost certainly picked out from your arse anyway!

Karmafaerie

The Muppet wrote: »

Where did these valuations comne form they all look on the optimistc side to me ? Even if they were right it's still only one in five making a profit, I'd be keeping my apples than you.

1 in 5.

Damn, if I'd known your maths were that bad I'd have asked for more apples!


Torres cost 20 mill, we've turned down offers of 50 mill plus. At least worth 60 mill.

Insua cost 2 mill, 6 mill would be the least we'd get for him.

Mascherano cost 16 mill, 35 mill was mentioned during the summer, as not nearly enough.

Reina Bought for 6 mill. 18 mill is the least we'd get for him. Not that he'd ever be sold.

Agger Bought for 5.8 mill. 12 mill for a player of his quality with 5 years on his contract.

Bellamy Bought for 6 mill. Sold for 7.5

Alonso Bought for 10.5 mill. Sold for 30 (rising to a possible 35) mill.

Crouch Bought for 7 mill. Sold for 11 mill (with one year left in contract).

Sissoko Bought for 5.6 mill. Sold for 8.2 mill

The Muppet

Karmafaerie wrote: »

1 in 5.

Damn, if I'd known your maths were that bad I'd have asked for more apples!


Torres cost 20 mill, we've turned down offers of 50 mill plus. At least worth 60 mill.

Insua cost 2 mill, 6 mill would be the least we'd get for him.

Mascherano cost 16 mill, 35 mill was mentioned during the summer, as not nearly enough.

Reina Bought for 6 mill. 18 mill is the least we'd get for him. Not that he'd ever be sold.

Agger Bought for 5.8 mill. 12 mill for a player of his quality with 5 years on his contract.

Bellamy Bought for 6 mill. Sold for 7.5

Alonso Bought for 10.5 mill. Sold for 30 (rising to a possible 35) mill.

Crouch Bought for 7 mill. Sold for 11 mill (with one year left in contract).

Sissoko Bought for 5.6 mill. Sold for 8.2 mill

You're right my math's is ****. Thats nine of the 55 he's purchased , it's less than one one five.

I could argue about your valuations as the purchases you listed are undervalued, for example Torres and Macherano both cost more than you say. Most of the sell on fees are just speculation so there's no point is there?

MementoMori

Any chance a mod could transfer all of the recent stuff about the spending to the Liverpool spending thread?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055500815&page=11

That way anyone who wants to discuss this can do this as opposed to dragging it all up in the main thread for the umpteenth time?

MementoMori

MementoMori wrote: »

Any chance a mod could transfer all of the recent stuff about the spending to the Liverpool spending thread?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055500815&page=11

That way anyone who wants to discuss this can do this as opposed to dragging it all up in the main thread for the umpteenth time?

The best suggestion I've heard in a long time.