Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

Bandit12

Mr Alan wrote: »

Sky is loving all this anti Rafa ****e, i thought Klinsmann in the studio was a nice touch the other night.

Sky of all the media networks have the most obvious anti Rafa slant, that's why it's going to all the sweeter when we bring home number 19 with Rafa at the helm.

kida

all 76 signings here

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1221975/Rafa-Benitezs-229m-spending-spree-The-76-players-signed-Liverpool-managers-reign.html

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

from the same article in the echo Muppet.



again, they were just speculating before the deal was finalised.

when the deal was finalised, the correct amount was reported.

the same amount that was reported on BBC. the site you say is most reliable for transfers.

and actually wat Rafa is saying in that article there is that the total cost which includes Garcia (4m) was £20m! even bigger bargain!

---

Morning, Ha Ha, I think it's pretty clear what Rafa is saying he paid 20 million plus Garcia for Torres , Makes sense when you consider Torres reported release clause of £27 Million, Why would they sell for less?

Mr Alan wrote: »

too late for that! time for my bed.

i'll tell you wat though, just to give ya something to read, i'll break down the squad with how much each person cost! (only the main players)

GK:
Reina-6m
Cavielleri-1.5m

RB
Johnson-17m
Degan-free

LB
insua-1.3m
aurelio-free
dossena-7m

CB
carragher-free
agger-5.8m
skrtel-6.5m
the greek lad-1.5m

CM
mascherano-17m
aquilani-17m
lucas-5.5m
Gerrard-free

RW
Kuyt-9m
Babel-11.5m

LW
Riera-8m
Benayoun-5m

ST:
Torres-20m
Ngog-1.5m
Voronin-free

hardly the kind of squad you'd look at & think wow! so much money spent its the league or the sack!

heres a good article if ya fancy a bit of reading.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/166504-rafael-benitez-the-transfer-truth

It's the kind of Squad I'd look at and say that it accounts for around £150 million of the £250 Million that Rafa has spent on players and ask, Where did the other £100 million he has spent go to?

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

It's the kind of Squad I'd look at and say that it accounts for around £150 million of the £250 Million that Rafa has spent on players and ask, Where did the other £100 million he has spent go to?

They've been sold. They are the likes of Crouch, Sissoko, Bellamy, Alonso etc, who needed to be offloaded to fund new players coming in.

A good way to look at it is what is that squad, that cost 150m, worth today:
probably something like:

(and i won't include Gerrard and Carra whom he inherited)
These are just estimates, obviously
Reina - 15m
Cavalieri - 3m
Johnson - 20m
Insua - 6m
Agger - 10m
Kyriakos - 1m
Skrtel - 10m
Aurelio - 3m
Dossena - 3m
Mascherano - 30m
Lucas - 6m
Babel - 7m
Riera - 8m
Benayoun - 14m
Kuyt - 14m
Aquilani - 17m
N'Gog - 3m
Voronin - 1m
El Zhar - 1m
Torres - 40m

Estimate: 213m - that shows SOME transfer accumen.

whatawaster

jasonorr wrote: »

How about I stop you there, first thing that came to my head looking at the players in the current squad. I'm sure the same can be said of many clubs though.

That's the squad as it stands (obviously), how many managers have had better resources than Rafa per year spent at their clubs? When you answer that question, take into account what state the club were in (to quote the great man) footballistically, in other words, how much did the squad need to be improved to challenge for champions league places or challenge for the title. From those managers, how many still have their jobs?

My point is, Liverpool were an established part of the top 4 before Rafa came, there has been an improvement, but significant enough?

I haven't seen many Pool fans (that I know) backing him

Let's take an example

Martin O'Neill at Villa - as i said yesterday (and obviously all the figures are open to criticism) it looks like he's spent more in 4 years than Rafa has in 6.
Now Rafa took over a team who finished 4th, but were very much on the way down. That team would not have finished 4th today. More like 6th or 7th.
O'Neill took over a team finishing (i think) 16th. But that was about the lowest they could have finished with a decentish squad.
O'Neill has taken them from 16th to 6th (twice in a row)
Rafa took us from 4th to 5th to 2nd and everywhere in between.

I'd argue that the leap from 4th to 1st (especially since 4th 5 years ago was such a low points tally) is a far greater leap than that from 16th to 6th. Especially considering the money chelsea have had and the fact that in Wenger and Ferguson Rafa was up against the two best managers in the country.

In 07/08 Villa finished 6th.
Over the summer Martin O'Neill had a net outlay on players of nearly 50m
In 08/09 Villa Finished 6th
Yet he's never criticised in the press, he's under no pressure and some crazed Liverpool fans actually think he should be our next manager. I don't understand it.

Spurs, Villa, City and Chelsea have outspent us since Rafa came in.
United had until they sold Ronaldo.
Sunderland are close behind us.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

They've been sold. They are the likes of Crouch, Sissoko, Bellamy, Alonso etc, who needed to be offloaded to fund new players coming in.

They are players that didn't work out or wanted out.

Nearly All players whatever club it is when they are sold are used to fund future transfers.

This we had to sell to buy rubbish, you'd swear Rafa was unique to this concept. It happens at nearly every single club in the world.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Spurs, Villa, City and Chelsea have outspent us since Rafa came in.
United had until they sold Ronaldo.
Sunderland are close behind us.

And there all ahead of ye in the league!

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

They are players that didn't work out or wanted out.

Nearly All players whatever club it is when they are sold are used to fund future transfers.

This we had to sell to buy rubbish, you'd swear Rafa was unique to this concept. It happens at nearly every single club in the world.

Of course it happens at every club (apart from Chelsea and City maybe) it's part of the restrictions every manager has had to face.
I was just pointing out where the rest of the money was spent, so i'm not sure what you're arguing.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

And there all ahead of ye in the league!

THERE ARE 9 GAMES GONE. F*CKING HELL.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Of course it happens at every club (apart from Chelsea and City maybe) it's part of the restrictions every manager has had to face.
I was just pointing out where the rest of the money was spent, so i'm not sure what you're arguing.

What you were implying was Rafa had to sell his star players to fund future purchases.

The reality is he has made so many dross buys or not handled signings correctly he has to sell them. If he got it right in the first place, he wouldn't be in that position to sell.

The reason he is so good at recouping money is that these players don't spend much time at Liverpool, therefore there values don't fluctuate much and I'm sure most of Europe know just because you don't make it at Liverpool under a questionable regime does not make you a bad player.

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

And there all ahead of ye in the league!

you know as well as i do that...

1) that doesn't mean they'll finish higher, and

2) apart from Chelsea, we've always finished higher than the others in that list under Rafa.

now i think Rafa is under pressure, and needs to get our team going again, but at least make a point against him of merit.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

you know as well as i do that...

1) that doesn't mean they'll finish higher, and

2) apart from Chelsea, we've always finished higher than the others in that list under Rafa.

now i think Rafa is under pressure, and needs to get our team going again, but at least make a point against him of merit.

So you predicting the future has more merit in me stating what has ACTUALLY happened and is happening?

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

What you were implying was Rafa had to sell his star players to fund future purchases.

The reality is he has made so many dross buys or not handled signings correctly he has to sell them. If he got it right in the first place, he wouldn't be in that position to sell.

The reason he is so good at recouping money is that these players don't spend much time at Liverpool, therefore there values don't fluctuate much and I'm sure most of Europe know just because you don't make it at Liverpool under a questionable regime does not make you a bad player.

Most of the dross buys, and there have been quite a few, were sold pretty quickly and we have overall almost broke even on these.

Crouch and Sissoko are examples of two good players (who we would absolutely love to have as backup now) who we couldn’t afford to keep because:
1. If we had there’d be no Mascherano, for example
2. we can’t afford their wages

Questionable regime! Pull the other one.

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

The reason he is so good at recouping money is that these players don't spend much time at Liverpool, therefore there values don't fluctuate much and I'm sure most of Europe know just because you don't make it at Liverpool under a questionable regime does not make you a bad player.

ok Boggles.

whatever suits your agenda.

you know that's not generally true, and is appropriate for maybe one or two, and that's at a push - Keane, and maybe Sissoko.

don't generalise his entire transfer policy to suit your Rafa bashing.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

ok Boggles.

whatever suits your agenda.

you know that's not generally true, and is appropriate for maybe one or two, and that's at a push - Keane, and maybe Sissoko.

don't generalise his entire transfer policy to suit your Rafa bashing.

Crouch, Bellamy, Alonso, etc, etc.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Most of the dross buys, and there have been quite a few, were sold pretty quickly and we have overall almost broke even on these.

Crouch and Sissoko are examples of two good players (who we would absolutely love to have as backup now) who we couldn’t afford to keep because:
1. If we had there’d be no Mascherano, for example
2. we can’t afford their wages

Questionable regime! Pull the other one.

Bollix Crouch wanted to leave because he saw the likes of the vorinator starting ahead of him.

Sissoko is a better all round player than Masch.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Crouch, Bellamy, Alonso, etc, etc.

Stop this nonsense.

Alonso didn’t work out under this questionable regime!!!!!!!

Alonso was brought in here for 10m and left 5 years later as one of the most coveted midfielders in Europe for over 30m.

Absolute f*cking drivel

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

So you predicting the future has more merit in me stating what has ACTUALLY happened and is happening?

seriously man, you're normally better at stirring than this.

what has ACTUALLY happened is we have finished above those clubs mentioned consistently under Rafa's regime, even though they've outspent us since. that's what has happened.

i've not predicted anything of the future. they could finish above us, but they haven't yet.

as a utd fan, you should know better than anyone that nothing is decided in October. Fergie reminds us most years. form temporary, class permanent and all that.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Bollix Crouch wanted to leave because he saw the likes of the vorinator starting ahead of him.

Sissoko is a better all round player than Masch.

Crouch wanted to leave because he felt he should be starting every game. Even though Torres had made the position his own.
Voronin hardly ever featured ahead of Crouch. And if he did it was in a withdrawn AM role that Crouch simply cannot play.

Wrong on Sissoko – he’s a worse passer and a worse tackler. He is however, brilliant in certain situations and had a great partnership with Alonso

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

Sissoko is a better all round player than Masch.

now i know you're on a wind-up.

phew.

for a second i thought this line of discussion might be serious.

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

Stop this nonsense.

Alonso didn’t work out under this questionable regime!!!!!!!

Alonso was brought in here for 10m and left 5 years later as one of the most coveted midfielders in Europe for over 30m.

Absolute f*cking drivel

SlickRic wrote: »

seriously man, you're normally better at stirring than this.

what has ACTUALLY happened is we have finished above those clubs mentioned consistently under Rafa's regime, even though they've outspent us since. that's what has happened.

i've not predicted anything of the future. they could finish above us, but they haven't yet.

as a utd fan, you should know better than anyone that nothing is decided in October. Fergie reminds us most years. form temporary, class permanent and all that.

whatawaster wrote: »

Crouch wanted to leave because he felt he should be starting every game. Even though Torres had made the position his own.
Voronin hardly ever featured ahead of Crouch. And if he did it was in a withdrawn AM role that Crouch simply cannot play.

Wrong on Sissoko – he’s a worse passer and a worse tackler. He is however, brilliant in certain situations and had a great partnership with Alonso

Dear god lads, take the cheer leaders uniforms off for 5 minutes, ponder a little.

And maybe you might see that Rafa has been a bit shít in the transfer market and questionable when it comes to handling players.

Go on, it doesn't make ye any less of a fanboy.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Dear god lads, take the cheer leaders uniforms off for 5 minutes, ponder a little.

And maybe you might see that Rafa has been a bit shít in the transfer market and questionable when it comes to handling players.

Go on, it doesn't make ye any less of a fanboy.

So you’re not going to respond to any of our points. Thought not.

Headshot

Jermaine Pennant has accused Rafael Benítez of "restricting" his players and failing to get the best out of the Liverpool squad. The winger, who left the club to join Real Zaragoza in the summer, believes the Spaniard's managerial style and cautious tactics have resulted in some high-profile players finding their best form elsewhere.

"I don't see how a player can play at an average team and be great and go to Liverpool and be not as great. It should be a lot easier," Pennant said. "Liverpool have had some great strikers come and go – Robbie Keane is scoring goals at Tottenham, Peter Crouch is scoring now. It didn't happen at Liverpool: it must be about how the manager relates to players, how the tactics are and how he restricts players. The coach plays a big part when you arrive at a new team. If he restricts you, it's going to make you play differently."


Liverpool prepare to face Manchester United this weekend on the back of four consecutive defeats – their worst run in 22 years – knowing that a fifth would leave them 10 points behind their greatest rivals. In the absence of the injured Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres Liverpool have created fewer chances and Pennant, who played for the club for three seasons after Benítez paid Birmingham £6.7m for his services, believes that the Spaniard's tactical demands hamper his squad.

"I have no qualms or bad feelings about Rafa and I still love the club but there are times when you feel restricted at Liverpool," added Pennant, who was freed by Liverpool last summer. "He's a great manager and there are times when he is a genius but sometimes his approach can take the best out of you. Liverpool are a great side but they need to let loose and express themselves a bit. Look at Barcelona – you don't see them restricted, you see them breaking all sorts of shackles and they win things. Maybe if Liverpool went that way a bit they would be even better."

Pennant was just one of a number of players whose signing should have provided Liverpool with the width and creativity they lacked but he departed having failed to progress and feeling that the coach did not believe in him. Others have followed suit while there has been little progress made by the former Brazilian footballer of the year Lucas or Ryan Babel, touted as the most exciting young player in the Netherlands before his move to Anfield. Pennant believes it is not coincidence.

"When I was there, sometimes I would like to get the ball and not even beat the man, just put it straight in. And he would be shouting: 'Go to the byline.' He'd say it before the game and, if I had put a ball in early, as I was jogging back he'd be there gesturing for me to get to the byline. You think, 'Give it a rest. Can I just play like this? Can't I just express myself?' He's a great manager but his approach can take the best out of you."

...

Boggles

whatawaster wrote: »

So you’re not going to respond to any of our points. Thought not.

Why would I bother, ye are all reading from the rather large pre defined Rafa excuse Hymn sheet.

I have heard them all a 1000 times before.

I've asked ye to put down the excuse book and think about it for 5 minutes, there is a pattern there that is actually quite easy to recognise.

The 2 points I made.

1. He is not so hot in the transfer market.
2. His man management of players is very questionable.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Dear god lads, take the cheer leaders uniforms off for 5 minutes, ponder a little.

And maybe you might see that Rafa has been a bit shít in the transfer market and questionable when it comes to handling players.

Go on, it doesn't make ye any less of a fanboy.

I however, will answer yours.

He’s been hit and miss in the transfer Market, no doubt about it.
I’ve already posted this, but regardless of the ins and outs and bad buys Rafa has added quality players to the squad every year

Year one – Alonso, Garcia
Year two – Reina, Sissoko, Crouch, Agger
Year Three - Aurelio, Kuyt, Arbeloa, Mascherano
Year four – Torres, Benayoun, Insua, Skrtel
Year five – Riera (can I put Keane!)
Year six – Johnson, Aquilani.

Overall, I’m happy with that, and I think had he had his usual net 15-20 he’d in years 1-4 in years 5 and 6, we’d have a very strong squad.

Questionable when it comes to handling players – for every player who’s spoken out against him or it seems has not got on well with Rafa there are countless examples of
Players praising him, even after they’ve left.
Hamann, Riise, Crouch (even though he didn’t like Rafa’s selections he said he thanked him for helping his England career), not to mention current players like Kuyt, Masch, Torres, Gerrard, Carra, Reina . . .

whatawaster

Headshot wrote: »

...

not once in that article does Pennant take the necessary long, hard look at himself

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

Dear god lads, take the cheer leaders uniforms off for 5 minutes, ponder a little.

And maybe you might see that Rafa has been a bit shít in the transfer market and questionable when it comes to handling players.

Go on, it doesn't make ye any less of a fanboy.

um, where did i say certain transfers haven't been shit?

where did i say that he's handled all situations perfectly?

exactly.

if you've read my posts from the last couple of days in particular, i've been very critical of Rafa. but i only feel the need to be critical of him where i believe he deserves it.

if you post nonsense like 'Sissoko is a better all round player than Masch',

or that all those teams who've spent more than us are now ahead of us (implying that they're somehow better teams than us when there's 29 games to go in the season, and we've beaten them every year so far during the Rafa reign)

or Rafa recoups and makes profit on players just because they don't stay on long and the value of the player doesn't depreciate,

then sorry, us defending those instances is not being a fanboy, just supporting the manager in areas he doesn't deserve to be criticised in.

no need to resort to petty insults just because posters won't back down to what you perceive as fact.

whatawaster

Boggles wrote: »

Why would I bother, ye are all reading from the rather large pre defined Rafa excuse Hymn sheet.

I have heard them all a 1000 times before.

I've asked ye to put down the excuse book and think about it for 5 minutes, there is a pattern there that is actually quite easy to recognise.

The 2 points I made.

1. He is not so hot in the transfer market.
2. His man management of players is very questionable.

I've answered your queries, and not based on any hymn sheet b*ll****. I've given these issues a lot of thought over the years.
If you care to read my past posts i've often been critical of Rafa's selections, tactics, substitutions etc. I've said a lot of his buys have been crap. I've said a lot of his buys have been good.

I think he's far from perfect.
But i think he's doing a good job.
And i think there is not one realistic candidate who i'd rather trust the future of the club with.
I'd love it if there was.
If there was a manager out there with all Rafas good points - tactics, organisation etc, and none of his bad - some poor buys (does this manager exist), Barcelona style football etc.
But there isn't imo

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

They've been sold. They are the likes of Crouch, Sissoko, Bellamy, Alonso etc, who needed to be offloaded to fund new players coming in.

A good way to look at it is what is that squad, that cost 150m, worth today:
probably something like:

(and i won't include Gerrard and Carra whom he inherited)
These are just estimates, obviously
Reina - 15m
Cavalieri - 3m
Johnson - 20m
Insua - 6m
Agger - 10m
Kyriakos - 1m
Skrtel - 10m
Aurelio - 3m
Dossena - 3m
Mascherano - 30m
Lucas - 6m
Babel - 7m
Riera - 8m
Benayoun - 14m
Kuyt - 14m
Aquilani - 17m
N'Gog - 3m
Voronin - 1m
El Zhar - 1m
Torres - 40m

Estimate: 213m - that shows SOME transfer accumen.

I think you missed my point. I know the players were sold but was it at a cost of a £100 million to the club as als squad list suggests?

Lets stick to the actual transfer fees for players and leave the guesswork/estimates out of it.

MementoMori

Some Pics of the same Jermaine Pennant.

Doing a superb job of expressing himself.







http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1086606/Liverpools-hopes-offloading-boozer-Pennant-appear-dashed-Jack-Daniels-party-pics.html

Boggles

See what Rafa did to him.

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

I think you missed my point. I know the players were sold but was it at a cost of a £100 million to the club as als squad list suggests?

Is this what you mean:

Total purchase value of players bought and sold by Rafa:

Josemi 2m
Nunez 1.5m
Alonso 10.7m
Garcia 6m
Morientes 6.3m
Carson 1m
Sissoko 6m
Crouch 7m
Gonzalez 1.5m
Bellamy 6m
Paletta 2m
Pennant 7m
Arbeloa 2.5m
Leto 2m
Keane 19m

Total: 80million approx

Total Rafa purchases per this link http://www.lfchistory.net/stats_transfers_by_manager.asp?list=Get&manager_id=20&InOut=1&submit1=Submit: 228m

Total value of Rafa’s squad – 150m approx

The difference is the above 80m or so

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

Is this what you mean:

Total purchase value of players bought and sold by Rafa:

Josemi 2m
Nunez 1.5m
Alonso 10.7m
Garcia 6m
Morientes 6.3m
Carson 1m
Sissoko 6m
Crouch 7m
Gonzalez 1.5m
Bellamy 6m
Paletta 2m
Pennant 7m
Arbeloa 2.5m
Leto 2m
Keane 19m

Total: 80million approx

Total Rafa purchases per this link http://www.lfchistory.net/stats_transfers_by_manager.asp?list=Get&manager_id=20&InOut=1&submit1=Submit: 228m

Total value of Rafa’s squad – 150m approx

The difference is the above 80m or so

Ok lets assume for now that those figure are right, where did that £80 million go?

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

Ok , where did that £80 million go?

I don’t really understand what you mean.

Rafa spent 230m approx buying players.

He brought in 145m in sales (100m of his own purchases (they cost 80m but were sold on for 20m profit) and 45m on Houllier players or Rafa buys who I didn’t include in the list because they had low values)

The 80m went back into buying players. The 80m is part of the 230m gross spend on players.

SlickRic

whatawaster wrote: »

The 80m is part of the 230m gross spend on players.

exactly, it's like asking where did the 80m ronaldo money go?

i'm genuinely not sure what you're trying to imply Muppet?

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

I don’t really understand what you mean.

Rafa spent 230m approx buying players.

He brought in 145m in sales (80m of his own purchases and 65m on existing players or Rafa buys who I didn’t include in the list because they had low values)

The 80m went back into buying players. The 80m is part of the 230m gross spend on players.

The current squad cost £150 million, Rafa has spent £230/£250 million on players, there's a difference of at least £80 million and thats putting a value of £ zero on the squad he inherited. To put it simply it the figures indicate that Rafa has lost an average of over £15 million a season on his transfer dealings.

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

The squad is worth £150 million, Rafa has spent £230 to £250 million on players, there's a discrepancy of at least £80 million and thats putting a value of zero on the squad he inherited.

I can’t be clearer than this:

The squad has a cost value of 150m

Rafa has bought players worth 230m
Rafa has sold players worth 145m
That’s a net spend of 85m on new players.

Our squad at the moment consists of 2 Houllier era players in Gerrard and Carra. Since they cost nothing we’ll discount them

Rafa has assembled a squad costing 150m, for a net outlay of only 85m.

The 65m discrepancy here is explained by 2 factors:
1. He made 45m on Houllier players that he sold
2. He’s made a 20m profit on players he bought and sold.

Genuinely, let me know if you’re still not clear on something

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

I can’t be clearer than this:

The squad has a cost value of 150m

Rafa has bought players worth 230m

Yeah he spend £230 million on something that on paper is worth £150 million. It's fairly straight forward.

whatawaster

To look at it another way.

Rafa inherits Houllier’s squad (the transfer value of which, as it turned out, was only 45m)
He sells them all. We have, for arguments sake, no players left. Rafa has 45m in the bank.

Rafa buys however many players he bought, spending 230m in the process.
We have (+45-230) an overdraft of 185m

Rafa then decides he doesn’t need most of these players and sells them on.
He sells players (who had cost him 80m originally) for 100m
We are left with an overdraft of (+45-230-100) of 85 million.

That 85 million is Rafa’s spend.

That 150m squad is made up of all Rafa’s purchases (230m) less the original cost of all his sales (80m) – ie: the two amounts in bold above

L'prof

whatawaster wrote: »

Let's take an example

Martin O'Neill at Villa - as i said yesterday (and obviously all the figures are open to criticism) it looks like he's spent more in 4 years than Rafa has in 6.
Now Rafa took over a team who finished 4th, but were very much on the way down. That team would not have finished 4th today. More like 6th or 7th.
O'Neill took over a team finishing (i think) 16th. But that was about the lowest they could have finished with a decentish squad.
O'Neill has taken them from 16th to 6th (twice in a row)
Rafa took us from 4th to 5th to 2nd and everywhere in between.

I'd argue that the leap from 4th to 1st (especially since 4th 5 years ago was such a low points tally) is a far greater leap than that from 16th to 6th. Especially considering the money chelsea have had and the fact that in Wenger and Ferguson Rafa was up against the two best managers in the country.

In 07/08 Villa finished 6th.
Over the summer Martin O'Neill had a net outlay on players of nearly 50m
In 08/09 Villa Finished 6th
Yet he's never criticised in the press, he's under no pressure and some crazed Liverpool fans actually think he should be our next manager. I don't understand it.

Spurs, Villa, City and Chelsea have outspent us since Rafa came in.
United had until they sold Ronaldo.
Sunderland are close behind us.

Martin O'Neill is an obvious example, but he has made continual improvements and arguably had a lot more to do to get his squad to the standard it is now then Rafa had to do with his.

My question was specifically about managers as my point was that managers who overspent while not delivering have lost their jobs.

O'Neill spent again this year, but to attempt to break into the top 4 he has to.

Hughes is under huge pressure to deliver this season. Failure to get a champions league spot could be costly.

Redknapp has done quite well since he took over and hasn't spent much this year.

Ancelotti has spent a bit. It's his first season and they do look a better side than in recent years.

Bruce inherited a terrible squad whose funds were poorly managed and he's needed to spend, not as much as Keane's wasted though, to rebuild that squad.

Rafa hasn't spent this year, which is his only saving grace to be honest, but he has done in the past.

whatawaster

jasonorr wrote: »

Rafa hasn't spent this year, which is his only saving grace to be honest, but he has done in the past.

yes, an average of 14m a season. Not excessive in todays terms at all

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

Yeah he spend £230 million on something that on paper is worth £150 million. It's fairly straight forward.

read my next post above.
You cannot discount the sales of players. To do so is utter nonsense.
He spent a net of 85 million on new players. He sold Houllier players for 45m
He made a profit on his own ins-and-outs of 20m.
That's where the 150m come from.

I really want some of the sensible United fans to come on here (PHB, Mitch . . .) as well as neutrals to come on here and verify that i'm not gone mad. Because as far as i can see you're either blind to the obvious, or just purposely ignoring it.

K-9

whatawaster wrote: »

read my next post above.
You cannot discount the sales of players. To do so is utter nonsense.
He spent a net of 85 million on new players. He sold Houllier players for 45m
He made a profit on his own ins-and-outs of 20m.
That's where the 150m come from.

I really want some of the sensible United fans to come on here (PHB, Mitch . . .) as well as neutrals to come on here and verify that i'm not gone mad. Because as far as i can see you're either blind to the obvious, or just purposely ignoring it.

I don't think he wants to understand it as it's ingrained that he wasted £80/100 Million.

Basic Maths and logic doesn't come into it or the fact that he's sold some of the players he bought.

whatawaster

jasonorr wrote: »

Martin O'Neill is an obvious example, but he has made continual improvements and arguably had a lot more to do to get his squad to the standard it is now then Rafa had to do with his.

I agree O'Neill has had a lot to do, and has done some of it well.

But look at this:

These are the existing players Rafa inherited and what he sold them for

Murphy 2.5m
Owen 8.5m
Diouf 3.5m
Diarra 2m
Baros 6.5m
Whitbread 200K
Traore 2m
Mellor 0.5m
Potter 0.5m
Warnock 1.5m
Pongolle 2.5m
Cisse 6m
Kirkland 3.5m
Riise 4m

Total is around 45m

As well as the following players sold for free: Henchoz, Smicer, Vignal, Biscan, Welsh, Cheyrou, Hamman, Diao, Le Tallec, Dudek, Kewell, Hyypia


I've emboldended the players i thought had something to offer when Rafa came in. Even then, only as squad players for the most part

Not a lot of quality there is there.
It's really an indictment of the squad Rafa inherited that they only raised 45m in transfer fees.
Rafa's now would fetch well over 200m

Bandit12

The Muppet wrote: »

The current squad cost £150 million, Rafa has spent £230/£250 million on players, there's a difference of at least £80 million and thats putting a value of £ zero on the squad he inherited. To put it simply it the figures indicate that Rafa has lost an average of over £15 million a season on his transfer dealings.

Why are you obsessed with Rafa's spending. You must have between 100-200 posts on the matter.

Pro. F

whatawaster wrote: »

...
You cannot discount the sales of players. To do so is utter nonsense.
...
I really want some of the sensible United fans to come on here (PHB, Mitch . . .) as well as neutrals to come on here and verify that i'm not gone mad. Because as far as i can see you're either blind to the obvious, or just purposely ignoring it.

Yup you've not gone mad. Your numbers make sense. In any discussion of a transfer budget you have to talk about sales as well as purchases. The NET spend (purchases minus sales) is what's important. Muppet doesn't seem to get that.

whatawaster wrote: »

Rafa has assembled a squad costing 150m, for a net outlay of only 85m.

That's the simple fact of the matter. You could rephrase it slightly: Rafa has assembled a squad worth 150m+, for a net spend of only 85m.

I came into this thread looking for some definitive analysis of Rafa's performance in the transfer market because i honestly didn't know what the truth of the details was. The only people who have put forward sensible analysis of the numbers have shown that Benitez has done well in the transfer market.

I honestly believe that Rafa is not a great manager. However it is now obvious that whatever about his other failings he does a good job in the transfer market.

SlickRic

Pro. F wrote: »

I honestly believe that Rafa is not a great manager. However it is now obvious that whatever about his other failings he does a good job in the transfer market.

this is as honest a statement as i've seen.

you can say what you want about Rafa, there's plenty to criticise really, but you cannot begrudge him the successes he has had in the transfer market.

The Muppet

Sorry had to do some work so couldn't continue this this morning.



Right For this exercise we are agreed that Rafa has spent £230 million on new players since he took over.

That £230 Million is broken down into £85 million new money and and £145 million from sales.

The source of the money is irrelvent really'.

The combined cost of the players he purchased that are still at Liverpool is around £150 Million.

Therefor he has spent £230 Million and is left with assets of £150 million.

I can't make it any simpler than that.

The Muppet

Pro. F wrote: »

Originally Posted by whatawaster
Rafa has assembled a squad costing 150m, for a net outlay of only 85m.

That's the simple fact of the matter. You could rephrase it slightly: Rafa has assembled a squad worth 150m+, for a net spend of only 85m.

We are talking overall spend , net spend gives the figure of new money it is not the complete budget. That's the mistake that's being made here.

SlickRic

this thread hurts my head