Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

Sorry had to do some work so couldn't continue this this morning.



Right For this exercise we are agreed that Rafa has spent £230 million on new players since he took over.

That £230 Million is broken down into £85 million new money and and £145 million from sales.

The source of the money is irrelvent really'.

The combined cost of the players he purchased that are still at Liverpool is around £150 Million.

Therefor he has spent £230 Million and is left with assets of £150 million.

I can't make it any simpler than that.

I sincerely hope it wasn’t work in the area of finance! Only kidding.

Right. You’re really not making it simple, you’re completely complicating things.

I really didn’t want to have to do this, and I apologise in advance.
This is just to show how ridiculous your logic is


Man United Squad Cost Values

Van Der Saar – 2m
Neville – 0m
Evra – 6m
Hargreaves – 17m
Ferdinand – 33m
Brown – 0m
Owen – 0m
Anderson – 18m
Berbatov – 30m
Rooney – 30m
Giggs 0m
Foster 0m
Park 4m
Tosic 7m
Vidic – 7m
Carrick – 18m
Nani – 14m
Scholes – 0m
Wellbeck – 0m
Valencia – 16m
Obertan – 3m
Kuszcak – 2m

Total Cost of squad – 207m

Total gross spends
09/10 – 19m
08/09 – 40m
07/08 – 63m
06/07 – 18m
05/06 – 20m
04/05 – 20m
03/04 – 53m

Total spend (only last 6 years) – 233m

Where has the 26m difference gone? And i could theoretically go back to the start of Fergie's reign of terror with this rubbish

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

I sincerely hope it wasn’t work in the area of finance! Only kidding.

Right. You’re really not making it simple, you’re completely complicating things.

I really didn’t want to have to do this, and I apologise in advance.
This is just to show how ridiculous your logic is


Man United Squad Cost Values

And you accuse me of complicating things?;)

I will look at what you have posted there.



Heres something else for your consideration. It's in relation to the squad rafa inherited. I only list players that were purchased . You valued the squad he inherited at £45 million.

Player - Purchased SOLD FOR
Jerzy Dudek - £4,850,000 - free
Chris Kirkland - £6,000,000 - £3,500,000
Steve Finnan - £3,500,000 - ?
Sami Hyypiä - £3,000,000 - ?
John Arne Riise - £4,600,000 - £4,000,000
Djimi Traoré - £55,000 - £2,000,000
Igor Biscan - £5,500,000 - free
Dietmar Hamann - £8,000,000 - free
Harry Kewell - £5,000,000 - free
Vladimir Smicer - £3,750,000 - free
Milan Baros - £3,600,000 - £6,500,000
Djibrill Cissé - £14,000,000 - £6,000,000
Anthony Le Tallec - £3,000,000 - ?
Florent Sinama - £2,000,000 - £2,700,000
Diouf - £11,000,000 - £3,500,000
Stephan Henchoz - £3,500,000 - free
Danny Murphy - £3,000,000 - £2,500,000
Gregory Vignal - £500,000 - free

Totals Players cost £84,855,000 and were sold on for £30,700,000

Mr Alan

the amount of ****e you are speaking in this thread is incredible Muppet.

i guess it Rafas fault that Hypia is at the end of his career?
or Kewell became injury ridden?
or players wouldn't sign new contracts?
or that Houllier overpaid for some players?

ffs. do you even believe wat you are saying or are you just on the wind up?

whatawaster

The Muppet wrote: »

And you accuse me of complicating things?;)

I will look at what you have posted there.



Heres something else for your consideration. It's in relation to the squad rafa inherited. I only list players that were purchased . You valued the squad he inherited at £45 million.

Player - Purchased SOLD FOR
Jerzy Dudek - £4,850,000 - free
Chris Kirkland - £6,000,000 - £3,500,000
Steve Finnan - £3,500,000 - ?
Sami Hyypiä - £3,000,000 - ?
John Arne Riise - £4,600,000 - £4,000,000
Djimi Traoré - £55,000 - £2,000,000
Igor Biscan - £5,500,000 - free
Dietmar Hamann - £8,000,000 - free
Harry Kewell - £5,000,000 - free
Vladimir Smicer - £3,750,000 - free
Milan Baros - £3,600,000 - £6,500,000
Djibrill Cissé - £14,000,000 - £6,000,000
Anthony Le Tallec - £3,000,000 - ?
Florent Sinama - £2,000,000 - £2,700,000
Diouf - £11,000,000 - £3,500,000
Stephan Henchoz - £3,500,000 - free
Danny Murphy - £3,000,000 - £2,500,000
Gregory Vignal - £500,000 - free

Totals Players cost £84,855,000 and were sold on for £30,700,000

all that tells me is that Rafa inherited a squad which Houllier had overpaid for, and even then it wasn't that expensive a squad by todays standards.
I'm not sure what points you're making at all here.

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

all that tells me is that Rafa inherited a squad which Houllier had overpaid for, and even then it wasn't that expensive a squad by todays standards.
I'm not sure what points you're making at all here.

In six years time someone will be saying the same about rafa's squad of today.

It was on a par if not more than value of the other top teams squads of the day.

The point I was making was that Rafa inherited a squad of Players that cost the club £85 Million ( some of whom he sold at a £50 million loss to the club). In most discussions about Rafa's spending he is usually portrayed as having started with a squad with very little value.


I looked at your united figures above as I said I would, you are assuming Uniteds complete squad was purchased within the last six years , It wasn't Rio's £33 Million was from before that period. There's your discrepancy explained. Liverpool are not in a similar position

CHD

What does this thread acheive?

The Muppet

CHD wrote: »

What does this thread acheive?

What does any thread achieve? It's here , so why not avail of it?

CHD

Just seems really pointless to me. Going round in circles. Whatever yous are into!

Headshot

whatawaster wrote: »

I sincerely hope it wasn’t work in the area of finance! Only kidding.

Right. You’re really not making it simple, you’re completely complicating things.

I really didn’t want to have to do this, and I apologise in advance.
This is just to show how ridiculous your logic is


Man United Squad Cost Values

Van Der Saar – 2m
Neville – 0m
Evra – 6m
Hargreaves – 17m
Ferdinand – 33m
Brown – 0m
Owen – 0m
Anderson – 18m
Berbatov – 30m
Rooney – 30m
Giggs 0m
Foster 0m
Park 4m
Tosic 7m
Vidic – 7m
Carrick – 18m
Nani – 14m
Scholes – 0m
Wellbeck – 0m
Valencia – 16m
Obertan – 3m
Kuszcak – 2m

Total Cost of squad – 207m

Total gross spends
09/10 – 19m
08/09 – 40m
07/08 – 63m
06/07 – 18m
05/06 – 20m
04/05 – 20m
03/04 – 53m

Total spend (only last 6 years) – 233m

Where has the 26m difference gone? And i could theoretically go back to the start of Fergie's reign of terror with this rubbish

whatawaster where did you get the prices for these players ?

dont come back with with the bloody dailymail source, looking for an offical source

Pro. F

The Muppet wrote: »

We are talking overall spend , net spend gives the figure of new money it is not the complete budget. That's the mistake that's being made here.

OK that's a sort of reasonable point. If, for the sake of argument, we ignore the problems with largely self financing the squad build through sales and compare the total budget he has had with the current value of the squad, how does it look?

The Muppet wrote: »

.. we are agreed that Rafa has spent £230 million on new players since he took over. ...


The combined cost of the players he purchased that are still at Liverpool is around £150 Million.

Therefor he has spent £230 Million and is left with assets of £150 million.

You are valuing the player assets purely based on what he paid for them, that is not very useful since the point people are making is that he is handy in the transfer market, which would imply that he got good value for the players he bought.

The assets (excluding Gerrard and Carragher), if they were to be sold today, would be worth a lot more than £150m, probably worth around £230m imo. I couldn't be bothered just now putting forward a detailed estimate but if you disagree with that statement you could give an estimate yourself.

The Muppet

Pro. F wrote: »

You are valuing the player assets purely based on what he paid for them, that is not very useful since the point people are making is that he is handy in the transfer market, which would imply that he got good value for the players he bought.

The assets (excluding Gerrard and Carragher), if they were to be sold today, would be worth a lot more than £150m, probably worth around £230m imo. I couldn't be bothered just now putting forward a detailed estimate but if you disagree with that statement you could give an estimate yourself.

Fair point too, depreciation is a factor, age injuroies etc but difficult to account for.

Some of the players rafa has purchased have been sold for a profit Alonso being the obvious example but likewise there has been many sold at a loss Keane for example lost him a lot of money and age injuries etc was not a consideration. I think overall his transfer record is poor, the figures just support that point.

whatawaster

Headshot wrote: »

whatawaster where did you get the prices for these players ?

dont come back with with the bloody dailymail source, looking for an offical source

mostly wiki tbh.
I was fighting nonsense with nonsense so i wasn't going for accuracy

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

mostly wiki tbh.
I was fighting nonsense fact with nonsense so i wasn't going for accuracy

FYP:p

Pro. F

The Muppet wrote: »

Fair point too, depreciation is a factor, age injuroies etc but difficult to account for.

Some of the players rafa has purchased have been sold for a profit Alonso being the obvious example but likewise there has been many sold at a loss Keane for example lost him a lot of money and age injuries etc was not a consideration. I think overall his transfer record is poor, the figures just support that point.

You didn't address the point in the post you quoted. You are seriously all over the shop in this discussion. Your arguments are totally illogical.

The Muppet wrote: »

Fair point too, depreciation is a factor, age injuroies etc but difficult to account for.

What does this even mean?
Does it mean that I made a fair point. That you therefore agree that his gross spend of £230m has in fact given the club a squad currently worth around £230m?
Or does it mean that you dissagree with that statement?

The Muppet wrote: »

Some of the players rafa has purchased have been sold for a profit Alonso being the obvious example but likewise there has been many sold at a loss Keane for example lost him a lot of money and age injuries etc was not a consideration. I think overall his transfer record is poor, the figures just support that point.

Before you start yet another angle of disscussion, how about you either refute or accept the criticism of your argument that I gave you?

Headshot

whatawaster wrote: »

mostly wiki tbh.
I was fighting nonsense with nonsense so i wasn't going for accuracy

wiki ehh

I wont say anymore

The Muppet

Pro. F wrote: »

You didn't address the point in the post you quoted. You are seriously all over the shop in this discussion. Your arguments are totally illogical.

illogical? It wasnt me that declared Rafa had spent just £85 million on his squad totally ignoring the revenue he had generated from sales,

Pro F wrote:

Yup you've not gone mad. Your numbers make sense. In any discussion of a transfer budget you have to talk about sales as well as purchases. The NET spend (purchases minus sales) is what's important. Muppet doesn't seem to get that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatawaster
Rafa has assembled a squad costing 150m, for a net outlay of only 85m.

That's the simple fact of the matter. You could rephrase it slightly: Rafa has assembled a squad worth 150m+, for a net spend of only 85m.

Pro. F wrote: »

What does this even mean?
Does it mean that I made a fair point. That you therefore agree that his gross spend of £230m has in fact given the club a squad currently worth around £230m?
Or does it mean that you dissagree with that statement?

It measn that depreciation of players over time is a valid consideration when discussing squad values.

I didn't put the £150 million Value on the current Livepool squad Mr AL did, You can take any questions you have regarding that valuation up with him.

Pro. F wrote: »

Before you start yet another angle of disscussion, how about you either refute or accept the criticism of your argument that I gave you?

Happy Now?

whatawaster

Muppet, you are so far off the mark it's not funny.

To see if you can understand the difference between net and gross spend, and the importance of the former, let me ask you a question i've already asked 3 people here (none have answered!)

Imagine if you will, Liverpool FC at the start of summer 2009. 2 scenarios

1. Alonso and Arbeloa ask to leave and are sold. They raise 35m between them. They need to be replaced so the Liverpool manager spends 35m on Glen Johnson and Alberto Aquilani. Direct replacements for both players. In terms of numbers the squad is exactly the same.

Gross spend = 35m
Net spend = 0m

2. Alonso and Arbeloa don't leave. Therefore the liverpool manager has no money to spend (because all the money he did spend in the summer in scenario 1 was from the sales of Alonso and Arbeloa).

Gross spend = 0m
Net spend = 0m

Questions
a) In scenario 1, would you consider that Liverpool had a lot of money to spend this summer?
b) In scenario 2, would you consider that Liverpool had a lot of money to spend this summer?
c) IN SUBSTANCE, how is there a difference between these 2 scenarios

I'd be grateful if you'd attempt an answer

Pro. F

The Muppet wrote: »

illogical? It wasnt me that declared Rafa had spent just £85 million on his squad totally ignoring the revenue he had generated from sales,

That's neither here nor there. When you explained what you were talking about to me I addressed it. Your response was illogical.

The Muppet wrote: »

It measn that depreciation of players over time is a valid consideration when discussing squad values.

OK that clears that up. Your earlier statement was very hard to interpret.

You didn't address my previous point so I'll put it too you again:
The assets (excluding Gerrard and Carragher), if they were to be sold today, would be worth a lot more than £150m. I would roughly estimate they would be worth closer to £230m. Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, can you put forward a reasonable estimate?

The Muppet wrote: »

I didn't put the £150 million Value on the current Livepool squad Mr AL did, You can take any questions you have regarding that valuation up with him.

I don't care who put the value on it, as a current saleable value it's wrong imo.

Mr Alan

i never said the value of our current squad was 150?!

if we were to sell every player at the club that Rafa bought we'd easily make over 230m on them.
Christ we'd make 100m on Torres & Mascherano!

mayordenis

The Muppet wrote: »

And you accuse me of complicating things?;)

I will look at what you have posted there.



Heres something else for your consideration. It's in relation to the squad rafa inherited. I only list players that were purchased . You valued the squad he inherited at £45 million.

Player - Purchased SOLD FOR
Jerzy Dudek - £4,850,000 - free
Chris Kirkland - £6,000,000 - £3,500,000
Steve Finnan - £3,500,000 - ?
Sami Hyypiä - £3,000,000 - ?
John Arne Riise - £4,600,000 - £4,000,000
Djimi Traoré - £55,000 - £2,000,000
Igor Biscan - £5,500,000 - free
Dietmar Hamann - £8,000,000 - free
Harry Kewell - £5,000,000 - free
Vladimir Smicer - £3,750,000 - free
Milan Baros - £3,600,000 - £6,500,000
Djibrill Cissé - £14,000,000 - £6,000,000
Anthony Le Tallec - £3,000,000 - ?
Florent Sinama - £2,000,000 - £2,700,000
Diouf - £11,000,000 - £3,500,000
Stephan Henchoz - £3,500,000 - free
Danny Murphy - £3,000,000 - £2,500,000
Gregory Vignal - £500,000 - free

Totals Players cost £84,855,000 and were sold on for £30,700,000

That is the worst I think I've ever read, it's so incredibly irrelevant
Hamann, Henchoz, Hyypia, Finnan, Dudek, all left when they were done basically some when there contracts were up.

Actually also you can't put in free transfers and say rafa made a loss on them, it's a total lack of logic, there contracts were up, rafa did not sell them.

Cisse and Diouf were paid way too much for.

anyway basically the worst post ever.

The Muppet

whatawaster wrote: »

Muppet, you are so far off the mark it's not funny.

To see if you can understand the difference between net and gross spend, and the importance of the former, let me ask you a question i've already asked 3 people here (none have answered!)

Imagine if you will, Liverpool FC at the start of summer 2009. 2 scenarios

1. Alonso and Arbeloa ask to leave and are sold. They raise 35m between them. They need to be replaced so the Liverpool manager spends 35m on Glen Johnson and Alberto Aquilani. Direct replacements for both players. In terms of numbers the squad is exactly the same.

Gross spend = 35m
Net spend = 0m

2. Alonso and Arbeloa don't leave. Therefore the liverpool manager has no money to spend (because all the money he did spend in the summer in scenario 1 was from the sales of Alonso and Arbeloa).

Gross spend = 0m
Net spend = 0m

Questions
a) In scenario 1, would you consider that Liverpool had a lot of money to spend this summer?
b) In scenario 2, would you consider that Liverpool had a lot of money to spend this summer?
c) IN SUBSTANCE, how is there a difference between these 2 scenarios

I'd be grateful if you'd attempt an answer

Of course I will try answer your question, that's what discussion is all about.

First off Believe me I know the difference between net and gross ok,

Q1 They spent £35 million on players which funded from sales of existing Players, There would be a zero net spend with no new investment from the owners.

Q2 They had no money to spend

There is a difference between the two scenarios which is in scenario 1 the Club spent £35 million on two players, which was funded by selling existing assets, therfore there was no new investment in the club from the owners.

There is no new investment in either season.

From here on in can we just discuss actual sales and figures if you don't mind.

The Muppet

mayordenis wrote: »

That is the worst I think I've ever read, it's so incredibly irrelevant
Hamann, Henchoz, Hyypia, Finnan, Dudek, all left when they were done basically some when there contracts were up.

Actually also you can't put in free transfers and say rafa made a loss on them, it's a total lack of logic, there contracts were up, rafa did not sell them.

Cisse and Diouf were paid way too much for.

anyway basically the worst post ever.

How can Rafa's assets at the start of his tenure be irrelevant, they are very relevent as those sales partly funded some of his early signings.

Some of them were at the end and would have naturally depreciated in value. I have already conceeded that, the problem is how do you account for that.

If you pay £2 million for a player and then let him go for nothing he has net cost of £2 million to the club.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

I think overall his transfer record is poor, the figures just support that point.

the figures dont support your point at all.

if all the players Rafa bought were sold in the morning, and they were to bring in more than 230m (which they would), would that not mean he'd done very well?

you're also totally ignoring the fact that improving a squad obviously costs money. and our squad is undoubtadly improved.

the team Houllier left got 60 points in the PL. last season we got 86.

mayordenis

The Muppet wrote: »

How can Rafa's assets at the start of his tenure be irrelevant, they are very relevent as those sales partly funded some of his early signings.

Some of them were at the end and would have naturally depreciated in value. I have already conceeded that, the problem is how do you account for that.

If you pay £2 million for a player and then let him go for nothing he has net cost of £2 million to the club.

That's like me selling a hemorrhaging, and then blaming the new owner for it going out of business, there was no way to add more longevity to certain players,
blaming rafa makes your look silly.

The Muppet

mayordenis wrote: »

That's like me selling a hemorrhaging, and then blaming the new owner for it going out of business, there was no way to add more longevity to certain players,
blaming rafa makes your look silly.

If all the players sold had reached the end of their playing days you would have a point. That is not the case with most of them .

Mr Alan wrote: »

i never said the value of our current squad was 150?!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62660881&postcount=245

You do the adding up then Al.

Mr Alan

The Muppet wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62660881&postcount=245

You do the adding up then Al.

141m.

and thats wat they cost, as has been said, if they were all sold tomorrow, they would make easily more than that. easily.

so how is that "bad" in the transfer market?

by the way, it was quite clear pro f was talking about the current value. whereas the list i made up was wat they cost to purchase at the time, a lot of the valuations would be quite different now.

Pro F wrote:

as a current saleable value it's wrong imo.

The Muppet

Mr Alan wrote: »

141m.

and thats wat they cost, as has been said, if they were all sold tomorrow, they would make easily more than that. easily.

so how is that "bad" in the transfer market?

by the way, it was quite clear pro f was talking about the current value. whereas the list i made up was wat they cost to purchase at the time, a lot of the valuations would be quite different now.

You know what they say about if's.

I was talking about your List. Nobody knows the value of players until they are actualy sold, For instance Alonso was avaialable for £12 million last summer and went for £30 million this summer.

I have only used real transfer fees, theres no imaginary ones in my posts.

Mr Alan

ok mupppet, i'll bow out of this conversation now, i think anyone reading it will recognise its truely nonsense that you are speaking.

Pro. F

The Muppet wrote: »

I was talking about your List.

You used Al's list, of how much Benitez spent on the players, as a statement of their current saleable value. That is grossly inaccurate.

The Muppet wrote: »

Nobody knows the value of players until they are actualy sold,

If you truly believe that nobody knows the value of players until they are actually sold then how come you are claiming here

The Muppet wrote: »

Therefor he has spent £230 Million and is left with assets of £150 million

that we have an estimate of the current saleable
value of the players (assets)?

The Muppet wrote: »

I have only used real transfer fees, theres no imaginary ones in my posts.

You have used unrelated transfer fees to imply current value. By using that total cost figure, you are claiming, for example, that Torres is now worth £20m and that Reina is now worth £6m!

mormank

whatawaster wrote: »

To look at it another way.

Rafa inherits Houllier’s squad (the transfer value of which, as it turned out, was only 45m)
He sells them all. We have, for arguments sake, no players left. Rafa has 45m in the bank.

Rafa buys however many players he bought, spending 230m in the process.
We have (+45-230) an overdraft of 185m

Rafa then decides he doesn’t need most of these players and sells them on.
He sells players (who had cost him 80m originally) for 100m
We are left with an overdraft of (+45-230-100) of 85 million.

That 85 million is Rafa’s spend.

That 150m squad is made up of all Rafa’s purchases (230m) less the original cost of all his sales (80m) – ie: the two amounts in bold above

haha i think i see where your name comes from now as you are clearly wasting your time trying to use maths and equations to explain stuff to the people arguing with you!! no matter what you say they will reply with the same thing they said before you tried to explain to them...this thread is such a load of complete rubbish. it really is. it is mainly just boggles (as usual) and muppet winding people up under the guise of a 'serious' discussion.

Mod request, put a warning on the thread title saying something like enter this thread at your own risk..what a load of drivvle!!

Or if this request isnt suitable then please just delete all 23 PAGES!!!!! and replace with summary

Anti Rafa Brigade: But rafa is rubbish in the transfer market and spent the most money ever in the transfer market.

Defence: well no, while we agree that rafa isnt perfect in the transfer market you are wrong with how much he has spent, this is why, and he has done reasonbly well considering...

Anti Rafa brigade: But rafa is rubbish in the transfer market and spent the most money ever in the transfer market.

Defence: well actualy, like we have just tried to explain, this is not wholy accurate. let me try firther to explain why...

Anti Rafa brigade: But rafa is rubbish in the transfer market and spent the most money ever in the transfer market.

Defence: oh god give me strength!!

Please oh please will the defence rest!!! forget arguing with the wall!!!

mormank

CHD wrote: »

What does this thread acheive?

nauseua! (spelling??)

DSB

The Muppet wrote: »

You know what they say about if's.

I was talking about your List. Nobody knows the value of players until they are actualy sold, For instance Alonso was avaialable for £12 million last summer and went for £30 million this summer.

I have only used real transfer fees, theres no imaginary ones in my posts.

Ah here, most ridiculous post ever. Seriously. Of course people can tell the values of players, not exactly of course. But we can say quite safely that Torres is no longer only worth 20 million, that price has probably trebled. We can say that Mascherano is worth a decent bit more than 18 million now. We can also say that Reina is worth a large portion more than 6 million now.

Alonso's value rose 18 million for 2 very obvious reasons. For one, he had an immense season, secondly, Real were after splashing ridiculous money on a number of other players and for that reason Liverpool knew they could squeeze more money from Real.

Of course, similar factors could increase or decrease the value of any Liverpool players, I mean Torres could suffer a career ending injury tomorrow, but that doesn't make your post any less ridiculous. But lets be honest, you knew what you were saying was ridiculous before you posted it.

The Muppet

DSB wrote: »

Ah here, most ridiculous post ever. Seriously. Of course people can tell the values of players, not exactly of course.

Ah here ,most riduclosly contradictory first sentenance of a post ever.

So tell me then how do you account for this revenue from future sales if there is no way of knowing exactly what a player will be sold for?

To clarify what I meant in the quoted text. I have not said that Torres is not worth more than the £26 million he cost, he may well bring in more than that if he is ever sold . We have no way of knowing exactly what that sum will be. Players are only worth the sum the highest bidder is willing to pay, it's impossible to predict.

Whats the point in discussing hypothetical income from players, player potential values can change in the blink of an eye if they suffer a serious injury.

DSB

The Muppet wrote: »

Whats the point in discussing hypothetical income from players

Simple, it shows the value Rafa got from signing such a player at this present time.

The Muppet

DSB wrote: »

Simple, it shows the value Rafa got from signing such a player at this present time.

Care to expalin that one to me , or is that your attemp to take the title of most ridiculous post ever from me.

PHB

I love this debate, we've had it to many times.

Whenever you show people that Liverpools net spend is fairly equal to Uniteds and tiny in comparison to Arsenal, they write you off as a Rafa hater.

Then they will claim that Liverpool started from a worse starting point than United, ignoring Arsenal because they trump everyone. Even though there are a similar number of Liverpool and United players who were kept on by the managers since that time period, with United having a slight advantage with O'Shea and Fletcher after a fairly direct comparison.

If they actually argue with you some more, they claim that while the net spend is the same, Rafa's budget in those time periods have been limited. In that he could only afford to spend up to about 15 million on a player, rather than 20 million. Why people think this is the case is absurd, since he had the money to spend that summer, he just choose to spend it on two players, often average, rather than one good one. He seems to have maybe adjusted this policy now, buying in expensive players like Johnson and Aquiliani.

But now Liverpool's squad is filled with dross, and everybody is wondering why. It's because for the last 4 years Rafa has been buying average players.

Now Liverpool fans will come back to you and say he didn't have the money to spend, and I'll say that he choose to do this policy, and we can just disagree.

What I find hilarious though is the continued faith in him, saying that he should get more money. If he had only had more money in years to come he'll have a great team. But I'd wager that the majority of managers out there is they could spend 2 years buying 2 20-30 million pound players would have a great team also. Because people have defended him for so long, it's tough to stop defending him now.

p.s. the Argument that you can't accurately analyse this stuff because we don't have the figures is pretty darn stupid

PHB

And on another point.

This summer, Alonso left. You were still weak up front. Overly reliant on Gerrard and Torres for your attack.

You had about 30 million to spend, then whatever you got from transfers. Ending up with a total spend of around 36 million. [And a net spend of around 0 which is typical for a club run by G&H and any other of those dammed American owners]

So ask anyone? Get a new central midfielder and a new attacker as a matter of priority.
Instead, we saw Arbeloa, a fairly bloody good RB, leave for Real Madrid, not too shabby a club, for 3.5 million.
Johnson replaced him for 17.5 million.

I am sorry, the improvement from Johnson (who I think has played well) from Arbeloa was not worth 14 million!

Then the remainder was spent on Aquiliani, who the jury if obviously still out on. However Benetiz knew when he signed him that he'd be out for 1/4 of the season! 1/4 of it, at least. Considering his injury record, it could well be more. That was another 17,000,000.
Allegedly he was a bit down Benetiz's list of players he wanted. But considering Alonso has been attempted to be sold last year, and put in the performance of his life last season, it wasn't a huge streach to expect him to leave, and for Rafa to plan for it better.

I can see how people would defend his transfer record over his term in office, I really can. I understand you can choose to see things as a result of financial restrictions rather than policy, and I understand how you can see how close Liverpool came last year and that he's making progress. But I can't for the life of me see how anybody, anybody, would defend his dealings in the transfer market last year, or the year before for that matter!

Pro. F

The Muppet wrote: »

To clarify what I meant in the quoted text. I have not said that Torres is not worth more than the £26 million he cost, he may well bring in more than that if he is ever sold . We have no way of knowing exactly what that sum will be. Players are only worth the sum the highest bidder is willing to pay, it's impossible to predict.

Whats the point in discussing hypothetical income from players, player potential values can change in the blink of an eye if they suffer a serious injury.

You are the one who put a hypothetical sale value on the players! Now you say it's impossible to predict and what's the point?! You estimated the sale value of the squad as £150m, based on the cost value put forward by Mr. Alan. You did this in order to prove that Rafa had wasted money.

The Muppet wrote: »

he has spent £230 Million and is left with assets of £150 million.

Now you are saying it's impossible to predict the saleable value of the players. It's one or the other. Which is it? Can the saleable value of the players be predicted or not?

Theresalwaysone

Muppet why did you ignore Pro.F's post above?

Edit: not immediately above, but a few above that.

The Muppet

Pro. F wrote: »

You are the one who put a hypothetical sale value on the players! Now you say it's impossible to predict and what's the point?! You estimated the sale value of the squad as £150m, based on the cost value put forward by Mr. Alan. You did this in order to prove that Rafa had wasted money.

Now you are saying it's impossible to predict the saleable value of the players. It's one or the other. Which is it? Can the saleable value of the players be predicted or not?

You should read the thread again as you are wrong on a number of points there. As I have told you once before I used the figures MR Al posted as the current cost of the squad , I asked a question comparing Mr Als figures with the amount of Money Rafa has spent on Transfers. Thats what this discussion is about as far as I'm concerned. I have no interest in discussing hypothetical valuations of players somwhere in the future

If you have a problem with Mr al's figures take it up with him.

As this is basically a repeat of what I have already posted that's all I'm saying to you on this matter.

.

The Muppet

PHB wrote: »

I love this debate, we've had it to many times.

Whenever you show people that Liverpools net spend is fairly equal to Uniteds and tiny in comparison to Arsenal, they write you off as a Rafa hater.

Then they will claim that Liverpool started from a worse starting point than United, ignoring Arsenal because they trump everyone. Even though there are a similar number of Liverpool and United players who were kept on by the managers since that time period, with United having a slight advantage with O'Shea and Fletcher after a fairly direct comparison.

If they actually argue with you some more, they claim that while the net spend is the same, Rafa's budget in those time periods have been limited. In that he could only afford to spend up to about 15 million on a player, rather than 20 million. Why people think this is the case is absurd, since he had the money to spend that summer, he just choose to spend it on two players, often average, rather than one good one. He seems to have maybe adjusted this policy now, buying in expensive players like Johnson and Aquiliani.

But now Liverpool's squad is filled with dross, and everybody is wondering why. It's because for the last 4 years Rafa has been buying average players.

Now Liverpool fans will come back to you and say he didn't have the money to spend, and I'll say that he choose to do this policy, and we can just disagree.

What I find hilarious though is the continued faith in him, saying that he should get more money. If he had only had more money in years to come he'll have a great team. But I'd wager that the majority of managers out there is they could spend 2 years buying 2 20-30 million pound players would have a great team also. Because people have defended him for so long, it's tough to stop defending him now.

p.s. the Argument that you can't accurately analyse this stuff because we don't have the figures is pretty darn stupid

Spot On PHB

L'prof

PHB wrote: »

Whenever you show people that Liverpools net spend is fairly equal to Uniteds and tiny in comparison to Arsenal, they write you off as a Rafa hater.

Did you mean something else here?

To end this debate, why don't we compare Fergie's net spending to Benitez's:

Since 2004:

Benitez: £84-132m Won: FA Cup, Champions League (big difference here because, I've found a few sources for Liverpool transfers and don't believe any to be truly accurate)

Fergie: £104m Won: 3 Premier Leagues, 2 League Cups, Champions League (any other sources for Fergie's spending?)

For those that forget United hadn't won a league for 3 years from 2004-2006, so both managers were building their squads.

For anyone interested, Wenger has made about £15m n the same period and won the FA Cup (again, only one source for that figure).

Rafa has made some amazing buys, some real stinkers too though. Do people think he has won enough?

The Muppet

jasonorr wrote: »

Did you mean something else here?

To end this debate, why don't we compare Fergie's net spending to Benitez's:

Since 2004:

Benitez: £84-132m

Fergie: £104m Won: 3 Premier Leagues, 2 League Cups, Champions League (any other sources for Fergie's spending?)

Don't know where you are getting your figures from, Fergies net spent since 2004 is around £27 million .

Work ahead with those comparisons now if you want.

L'prof

The Muppet wrote: »

Don't know where you are getting your figures from, Fergies net spent since 2004 is around £27 million .

Work ahead with those comparisons now if you want.

Like I said, only found one source, I'd be extremely surprised if you were right about that though!

flahavaj

jasonorr wrote: »

Like I said, only found one source, I'd be extremely surprised if you were right about that though!

Sure the Ronaldo fee alone means hes far closer to the accurate figure than you are.

Mr Alan

benayoun, 5m, wat a ****ing brilliant buy.

L'prof

flahavaj wrote: »

Sure the Ronaldo fee alone means hes far closer to the accurate figure than you are.

Sure the season they signed Nani, Anderson and Hargreaves almost cancels out Ronaldo's fee!

Actually, maybe not almost but Valencia, Berbatov, Carrick, Rooney and those three among others

The Muppet

jasonorr wrote: »

Like I said, only found one source, I'd be extremely surprised if you were right about that though!

Trust me I am right.


Google is your friend but be prepared to be extremely surprised.


I eagerly await your comparisons.

Mr Alan

Ferguson does great in the transfer market.

As does Wenger.

Its people saying that Rafa is ****e that is annoying, when he quite clearly isn't.

L'prof

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ferguson does great in the transfer market.

As does Wenger.

Its people saying that Rafa is ****e that is annoying, when he quite clearly isn't.

He's not ****é, but he does overspend...so does Ferguson.