Charter Change Part Deux! The Poll!

DeVore

The problem is that some professionals here get very cranky when they see their business being devalued to the extent it has.

This is not a simple Photography problem, its a worldwide, general problem. We have the same issue on the Dentistry forums from time to time with the costs of dentistry here compared with the North or other EU countries.

This is simply a case of "when worlds collide". Internet, meet pro photographers and vice versa. Its happening with Journalists and Bloggers too, people literally GIVING AWAY the "product" the journalists are selling...

This is a complex issue and we arent going to knee jerk a decision on. But I do think this is a PhotographY forum not a photographER forum. How we service the needs of the latter as a community is the bit we have to decide.

DeV.

Mycroft H

Hm in light of the recent posts specifically above, i wish i hadnt voted yes.

melekalikimaka

i voted yes.

as devore said, it is a bit bad taste for folk to post looking for photographers here, cos they are too cheap to hire a professional, bit of a kick in the face for any pro here, or infact anyone with respect for photography...

Covey

Tell me if I've picked it up wrong but I thought Boards had come up with an excellent solution to this after what were a few unsavory incidents, namely reply by PM only.

That way no one gets to post "I'll do it for Free" and everyone thats interested gets a chance to convince the poster. I don't recall one bit of bother after that?

I think it's natural that people visiting here, see a good standard and would consider using people on here for that reason.

For anyone that gets a bit of work out of posting on here, helping others, sharing their work and making the Boards forum what it is, fair play to them. It does need a structure and has one that works imo.

AnimalRights

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i voted yes.

as devore said, it is a bit bad taste for folk to post looking for photographers here, cos they are too cheap to hire a professional, bit of a kick in the face for any pro here, or infact anyone with respect for photography...

Pro's surely should have their own site if they're serious and not be relying on what is primarily an amateur forum?

Covey

AnimalRights wrote: »

Pro's surely should have their own site if they're serious and not be relying on what is primarily an amateur forum?

Couldn't agree less . Maybe we should throw out the under age whipper snappers as well :pac:

It's the mix around here that makes it interesting.

jaqian

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i voted yes.

as devore said, it is a bit bad taste for folk to post looking for photographers here, cos they are too cheap to hire a professional, bit of a kick in the face for any pro here, or infact anyone with respect for photography...

I think thats a bit harsh. If people can afford it of course they will look for the best. However the photographer is usually the last thing on their mind (the first being getting married) and they usually haven't much left over from their budget to afford a tog.

I know of one couple last year who didn't have a tog as they couldn't afford one and a college of mine who is getting married later this year is doing without as well. Times are hard.

I have no problem with people looking for a photographer and see no difference in that from someone looking to recommend a camera. In both cases the poster is looking for ADVICE not selling anything.

These people looking for cheap wedding photographers wouldn't go to the pro's so they aren't losing out anyway.

I think the current system works even if it irritates the pro's.

melekalikimaka

jaqian wrote: »

I have no problem with people looking for a photographer and see no difference in that from someone looking to recommend a camera. In both cases the poster is looking for ADVICE not selling anything.

the poster is looking for a service... boards.ie has a sister site called adverts.ie for that

Calina

melekalikimaka wrote: »

i voted yes.

as devore said, it is a bit bad taste for folk to post looking for photographers here, cos they are too cheap to hire a professional, bit of a kick in the face for any pro here, or infact anyone with respect for photography...

I think that's slightly unfair.

From my point of view, the issues are not so much that people are looking for better value for money options (for want of a given value for that) here, but the flaming that ensues. Otherwise I really wouldn't care one way or the other.

@Covey, the PM route has been the way to do it for months and months and months and months. But it does not stop a bunch of people throwing in their two cents worth either and it's the two cents worth which has been worth several hundred years of my life in the past. Not just the last time either although that was a spectacular, but several times going back to when I started moderating Photography. Before that, of course, I just didn't read the threads concerned.

While I'll be interested to see what Darragh and DeV come back with, for the time being no one has really given me a good reason why it's okay to use adverts to sell or look for photography gear, but not for photography services.

AnimalRights

Covey wrote: »

Couldn't agree less . Maybe we should throw out the under age whipper snappers as well :pac:

It's the mix around here that makes it interesting.

It came out wrong! what I meant was if they're gonna bitch about some Photographers doing photography cheaper then what do they expect on this type of forum?

/**** that sounds ****e as well.

Covey

Calina wrote: »

@Covey, the PM route has been the way to do it for months and months and months and months.

for the time being no one has really given me a good reason why it's okay to use adverts to sell or look for photography gear, but not for photography services.

I'll preface this by saying I may well have missed something here, if I have ignore the rest.

Well I've been here for months and months and months and a long time before that and I for one was not aware of the PM rule until recently. And I spend more time on here than is probably healthy. Was this in the charter and if not how was I to find out about it?

As soon as the last spat ended, my understanding was that we agreed to start afresh and some people have visably done that. Part of that was the PM thing as far as I could see, which for the three or four subsequent threads has never been abused. Give it a chance to work on or else your just fixing something that at this point in time is not broken.

Lets not forget Boards.ie gets something from the photography forum as well as the opposite way around.

This won't go down well, but I think it needs to be said. That final sentence is in the singular person and smacks of a singular response to the question. That obviously is not the case given the involvement of the other mods/owners, so maybe the royal "we" might be better when making sweeping statements about such an important topic to a lot around here.

I've no personal interest in this as I don't take weddings btw.

AnCatDubh

Covey wrote: »

Well I've been here for months and months and months and a long time before that and I for one was not aware of the PM rule until recently. And I spend more time on here than is probably healthy. Was this in the charter and if not how was I to find out about it?

What rule? Somebody point me to the rule. Seriously though, I referenced it recently as a protocol as it seemed to take the agro out of a number of threads but the issues with the thread are more than "to PM or not to PM"

Covey wrote: »

As soon as the last spat ended, my understanding was that we agreed to start afresh and some people have visably done that. Part of that was the PM thing as far as I could see, which for the three or four subsequent threads has never been abused. Give it a chance to work on or else your just fixing something that at this point in time is not broken

Which spat? (apologies) Honestly i'm not trying to be funny or obstructive - there's been a few and I think everyone takes something different out of the end result. I can't recall (but will go off to find what spats I can) that PM's were particularly contentious.

Covey wrote: »

Lets not forget Boards.ie gets something from the photography forum as well as the opposite way around.

100% - I think the boards owners realise that across the entire site and frequently remind us moderators that this is the way it is.

Covey wrote: »

This won't go down well, but I think it needs to be said. That final sentence is in the singular person and smacks of a singular response to the question. That obviously is not the case given the involvement of the other mods/owners, so maybe the royal "we" might be better when making sweeping statements about such an important topic to a lot around here.

I don't think its a case of it not going down well er..., but is this not just semantics? From my reading of it (and I appreciate I am also reading from a perspective), Calina simply was saying that "no one's shown her" which from a personal perspective is factual. I doubt very much that it was anything else.

Covey

An Cat Dubh, I think you being less than fair in your reply.

Calina has pointed out that PM has been the way to go for months and months and months etc. I'm just pointing out that wasn't communicated until your good self pointed it out recently. Maybe communication is the problem here.

The Spat I refer to was moved to another forum and was a major row if I recall correctly. I'm sure you contributed.

Not much point contributing here if mods aren't interested though.

AnCatDubh

melekalikimaka wrote: »

.... cos they are too cheap to hire a professional, bit of a kick in the face for any pro here, or infact anyone with respect for photography...

I disagree with the generalisation. People aren't necessarily too *cheap* - people can have genuine life events which knock the sh**e out of them and their plans for a perfect day. They may not be bad people or *cheap*. In fairness some people may not see the value in what a photographer needs to charge to earn their crust - if this deserves a descriptor of 'cheap' then well and good. The other point is that whether you are a professional or not has no prescribed bearing on these forums afaik.

AnCatDubh

Covey wrote: »

An Cat Dubh, I think you being less than fair in your reply.

Apologies, I didn't intend to.

melekalikimaka

AnCatDubh wrote: »

In fairness some people may not see the value in what a photographer needs to charge to earn their crust

here of ALL forums I think people see the value... but I guess respecting it is debatable...

AnCatDubh

melekalikimaka wrote: »

here of ALL forums I think people see the value... but I guess respecting it is debatable...

Yeah I agree here to a large extent. Having said that I think some of the threads we see (keeping wedding themes in mind here and as to the cost of same) - forum users will see the value in the €1000 - €2000, and then it appears (anecdotally) to diverge - some thinking and being able to justify the €3000, €4000+ packages that can be quoted. Perhaps at that point it really is buyer beware.

Dades

Calina wrote: »

From my point of view, the issues are not so much that people are looking for better value for money options (for want of a given value for that) here, but the flaming that ensues. Otherwise I really wouldn't care one way or the other.

I haven't seen 'flaming' in relation to wedding photography services, only disagreements in principle that result in rumbustious, but interesting threads.

DeVore

There is a difference between the Industry and the Hobby. We need to reflect that I feel.

How is something else entirely...

DeV.

Dodgykeeper

Somebody posts looking for a photographer for a Wedding/21st/Gig whatever, the users here reply by PM.


If they reply in an other way delete the thread!

I was watching the news today and the Taxi Drivers were complaining about the amount of Taxis on the road, I had a vision of a load of Pro Photographers marching on the Dail demanding that Berminghams Conns etc stop selling cameras.

kjt

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

I was watching the news today and the Taxi Drivers were complaining about the amount of Taxis on the road, I had a vision of a load of Pro Photographers marching on the Dail demanding that Berminghams Conns etc stop selling cameras.

Haha funny image in my head!

melekalikimaka

image in the signs

'no cash - no flash'

AnCatDubh

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

I was watching the news today and the Taxi Drivers were complaining about the amount of Taxis on the road, I had a vision of a load of Pro Photographers marching on the Dail demanding that Berminghams Conns etc stop selling cameras.

Dragan

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

If they reply in an other way delete the thread!

Why punish the person who started the thread, or the people who will reply the right way , should that be the way the Overlords decide to do it?

Sense. It makes none.

Calina

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

Somebody posts looking for a photographer for a Wedding/21st/Gig whatever, the users here reply by PM.


If they reply in an other way delete the thread!

Can you tell me how this is not heavy handed modding? I only ask because the OP - you assure me - is entitled to make the query, but I should delete that query if a bunch of other people don't respond as required? I'd prefer to just ban the bunch of other people but you call that heavy handed modding, as I recall in rather a lot of detail.

Dodgykeeper

Dragan wrote: »

Why punish the person who started the thread, or the people who will reply the right way , should that be the way the Overlords decide to do it?

Sense. It makes none.

Meant to say delete the post!

rahtkennades

Hmm...I've no real opinion on this. I like the blood sport of the flaming threads, but get a bit annoyed about them at the same time.

So, would it be possible to do the following:
1. Add to the charter to say "For requests for photography services, please post once, making sure to mention you want responses by PM"
2. Add to the charter to say "Anybody responding by any other means will be punished accordingly <insert appropriate punishment>"
3. Lock the thread and make it a sticky for 1 day.
4. Remove the lock and let it slide away to oblivion.

Debates about offering professional services can then carry on in other threads. I get the bloodsports, the bride/groom-to-be gets her/his chance to find a 'tog here.

My 2c.

dakar

Agree with the above, I'm looking at this from an outside perspective since I doubt if I'll either be offering or requesting services (at least Mrs. dakar will be more than a little surprised if I start looking for a wedding photographer)

Alternatively, I can't see how difficult it would be for people requesting photographic services to be politely directed towards adverts.ie, as far as I can see, all it means is that the very fine photographers here who pick up job leads through this forum will need to either keep an eye on the relevant adverts page themselves or even easier, follow OP's (who probably haven't read the charter anyway) when they get re-directed from here.

My own 2c

AnimalRights

I've never read the charter and I'm sure quite a good few people haven't.

AnCatDubh

AnimalRights wrote: »

I've never read the charter and I'm sure quite a good few people haven't.

perhaps it would be a good idea to have a read. it explains a lot.

Dodgykeeper

Darragh wrote: »

Hey all,

I've been reading this and all the links and giving it a lot of thought. I'll go back to CabanSail on this and let you know what we've decided. I'll ask for a couple of days more patience from you as I don't think it's a decision we can take altogether too lightly.

Thanks

Darragh

Did Darragh ever get back to us on this matter, A thread was removed to Adverts a few days ago and was wondering what was decided!

AnCatDubh

we are still awaiting formal consideration and reply.

Dodgykeeper

And in the meantime removing posts to Adverts?

AnCatDubh

In the meantime, the charter is what is governing the forum.

One thread that I am aware of was asked to head towards adverts with the promise of reinstating it once the charter consideration is decided upon by the higher authorities if such post was to be allowed. The poster had no difficulty AFAIK.

Dodgykeeper

Ok thanks for your replys, and I await the decision from on high, whats the hold up btw?

AnCatDubh

I don't know for certain but I'd suspect its the sheer volume of requests that have hit the new community moderators. Snowed and under comes to mind.

Dodgykeeper

AnCatDubh wrote: »

I don't know for certain but I'd suspect its the sheer volume of requests that have hit the new community moderators. Snowed and under comes to mind.

Mmmmm this is the secod matter I am aware of that has been referred to them and not acted on! Finger and Out also comes to mind!

DeVore

Sorry, I'm reading this thread but Darragh and I arent here to "enforce" rules upon you, we will give our thoughts and (with my directors hat on) the position of the "Platform" but you guys are sorta semi-autonomous as well and should be grown up enough to figure this out too. It has to be a consensus position, not something from "on high".

As someone interested in Photography as well, I'll swing by after the weekend (having spoken to a few people at the Photography exhibit most likely) and put my two cent in as a "user" too.

DeV.
ps: yes the CMans are snowed with stuff to do, but to be honest, this is a "local" issue and one which needs a local solution/consensus.

Dragan

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

Mmmmm this is the secod matter I am aware of that has been referred to them and not acted on! Finger and Out also comes to mind!

Did you ever think about all the things they are working on that you haven't heard of?

DK, things will take precedent over this issues because Boards.ie as a whole takes precedent over the Photography Forum, no?

Darragh

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

Mmmmm this is the secod matter I am aware of that has been referred to them and not acted on! Finger and Out also comes to mind!

AHEM!!!

Dodgykeeper

Dragan wrote: »

Did you ever think about all the things they are working on that you haven't heard of?

DK, things will take precedent over this issues because Boards.ie as a whole takes precedent over the Photography Forum, no?

Darragh wrote: »

AHEM!!!

The symbol usually means that the person is making a joke!

shepthedog

This has dragged on so long I had assumed this had all been resolved and I had possibly missed the thread..

So my understanding is that it was referred to the "higher ups" and they have now referred it back to be decided by the photo mods...

Do we have an overall decision? Has it changed or stayed the same?

Dodgykeeper

It appears to me that we were fobbed off with the whole referred to higher power business, and the mods were hoping that it would just go away,

Also interesting was Devore saying that the forum was autonomous yet Calina insisting that the OOF thread was his/her idea and must stay stickied!

AnCatDubh

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

It appears to me that we were fobbed off with the whole referred to higher power business, and the mods were hoping that it would just go away,

What a crock of crap tbh.

Present position is that it is still being considered. People are still free to post opinion here on this thread and vote in the poll created by the OP. All of this is being considered and welcome. It is all valuable to an outcome. Dev's comments are noted. The Community Mods are assisting with helpful suggestions and there are a number of experiences being shared by other moderators from various forums in terms of what approaches are taken on other parts of boards to similar issues.

CabanSail

There have been a lot of other things going on as well as just this issue. Not only have I been away in the UK for a couple of weeks, myself & Calina have been getting the Exhibition sorted. These things do not just happen but take time & coordination of quite a few people.

While at the Lauch I finally met DeVore in person & had quite an interesting chat on many subjects. One of the things we did talk about was this subject. I can assure you it has not been forgotten or left in the hope that it will go away. We are looking for ways that will keep most people happy. Going on the Poll in this thread it could be argued that the results show that we are not far off with the situation at present. Discussions are still occurring & hopefully there will be some outcome soon.

Anouilh

Just to say that I am very contented with Boards.ie these days. I gradually got the hang of photo sizes for uploading and don't take a political view of Photo Sites in general.

Many thanks for all the good work.

I hope, BTW, that my Sweet William photo made it's way to the DCC exhibition slideshow. Overall, this forum offers much scope for involvment in the Irish photographic world.

Anouilh

Dodgykeeper wrote: »

It appears to me that we were fobbed off with the whole referred to higher power business, and the mods were hoping that it would just go away,

Also interesting was Devore saying that the forum was autonomous yet Calina insisting that the OOF thread was his/her idea and must stay stickied!

I leave Higher Powers to those more theologically advanced than myself.

sineadw

For what its worth, I believe any posts of a commercial nature belong on the adverts site. Not only does it make sense, but it might instill in people that what they're asking for for free (sometimes) *IS* a commercial service.

For the time being, could we maybe leave a link up to adverts when something is moved? Not sure if its already happening that way..

Gambler

Voting has expired so I can't add my vote but I will say that I agree that the photography forum isn't the place for requesting photographer services.

Would it be possible to add a section of adverts.ie for photography services wanted (maybe as a sub section of services wanted) and let anyone who wants to subscribe to that section so they get automatic emails..

This is a community site and a community forum, not a business opportunity..

CabanSail

Gambler wrote: »

Would it be possible to add a section of adverts.ie for photography services wanted (maybe as a sub section of services wanted) and let anyone who wants to subscribe to that section so they get automatic emails..

This is one of the options being discussed.