Smithfield Horse Market

Rabble Rabble

I blame we as a society.

JP Liz V1

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/chaos-at-horse-fair-as-two-hurt-in-shooting-147353.html

There were chaotic scenes at the traditional Smithfield Horse Fair in Dublin yesterday after the sound of several gunshots triggered a stampede among horses and members of the public.
Animal welfare groups called for the immediate closure of the centuries-old market after yesterday’s event was marked by a number of violent incidents including a shooting in which two males were injured.
The Dublin Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals claimed the fair, which attracts hundreds of horse traders and spectators every month, descended into mayhem after gunshots rang out around the packed plaza.
"People were literally running for their lives as horses were out of control. It’s a miracle nobody was killed," said Orla Aungier, operations manager of the DSPCA.
Two men were injured during the shooting which occurred at about 11.30am as the large plaza was thronged with more than 400 horses and several hundred traders and bystanders, including a large force of gardaí.
One male was rushed to St James Hospital for treatment, while the other was brought by ambulance to the Mater Hospital, although neither victim’s injuries are understood to be life-threatening.
Garda sources said the incident was believed to be related to an ongoing feud between Traveller families. Both injured parties are believed to be members of the same Co Offaly family.
The Army Bomb Disposal Unit was also called to the fair after a suspicious device was discovered.
The Defence Forces later confirmed that the weapon was an improvised shotgun which was made safe and given to gardaí for investigation.
In a separate incident, another man also required treatment in hospital for an injury after he was attacked with a slash hook during a row involving a large group of males.
DSPCA general manager, Jimmy Cahill, said the organisation had warned before yesterday’s events that the horse fair posed a considerable danger to both the public and animals.
"This is not some quaint tradition that celebrates Ireland’s love for horses. This is a major health and safety issue that today moved firmly into criminality," said Mr Cahill.
"The Smithfield market is unlicensed, unregulated and completely unsuitable for horses. We have regularly come across neglected and injured horses here which flies in the face of Ireland’s reputation as a nation of horse lovers."
The DSPCA called on the new Government to close the Smithfield Horse Fair through the introduction of emergency legislation.
Ms Aungier said the condition of some horses brought to Smithfield were a cause of serious concern.
A request by Dublin City Council for horse traders not to attend yesterday’s fair due to refurbishment work on the Smithfield Plaza was widely ignored as horse traders from all parts of the country, as well as Britain, attended the largest of the monthly markets.
The local authority is currently carrying out a major upgrade of the Smithfield Quarter which meant that around 50% of the space normally occupied by the horse fair was closed off.
Dublin City Council said the call on traders to avoid the fair was made in the interest of public safety.
The council does not have legal powers to close the market itself unless it provides an alternative site within the surrounding area.
Instead, it has asked the Government to introduce legislation to extinguish the right of horse traders to operate the fair on the first Sunday of every month.
Dozens of council staff were also required to mount a major clean-up operation after the fair was over as Smithfield’s famed cobblestones were covered with rubbish and horse manure.

(I feel for all the people living in this area anyone could have hurt yesterday, disgraceful)

RDM_83 again

Adagiodiva wrote: »

I've been living in Smithfield for the lat three and a half years and have never seen the likes of what occured yeaterday.
.................
It's now gone beyond a horsefair...it's now a serious public liability and to call this "tradition" is a scapegoat.

It has to be accepted that Smithfield is now an urban area,
................................

It's an absolute joke...we're paying a small fortune to live in Smithfield and are subject to this?? It's just not acceptable.

S.

What sort of area has smithfield been for all the previous hundreds of years before you moved there after?

Its an obvious solution to the problem that the hundreds of year old tradition that has its rights enshrined by law has to go, don't you know there's nice apartments there now!

maximoose wrote: »

I've been in Smithfield for 4 years now and this 'market' - I'm using that term loosely as from what I've seen there is f*ck all trading actually goes on here - is a joke. It brings...
............
Dublin 7 in its ENTIRETY is covered in horse sh*t and hay for usually a full 3 weeks after the 'market'
.................
After yesterday's events surely the DCC/Garda/whoever need to do something and get rid of this backwards tradition

Dublin 7 is not covered in horse sh-t for three weeks after the market thats the biggest load of Bullsh-t I ever heard (and if it was presumably you noticed that when you were moving there?unless you moved in on the one week that there wasn't?)

The whole point is the garda haven't been able to get rid of this backwards tradition because its so old its enshrined into the law/rights (of the city I presume), you do know that smithfield used have cattle market etc in it.

Not every aspect traditional aspect can be sacrificed so that people who bought overpriced apartments in the boom can be in 180,000 grands worth of negative equity rather than 200,000 and not have to run into any undesirables while there nipping into fresh for some massively overpriced shopping.

I'm not condoning what by any means happened but let the cops do there job and come down extremely hard on those offenders not shut the place down.

The Waltzing Consumer

RDM_83 again wrote: »

What sort of area has smithfield been for all the previous hundreds of years before you moved there after?

Its an obvious solution to the problem that the hundreds of year old tradition that has its rights enshrined by law has to go, don't you know there's nice apartments there now!

Dublin 7 is not covered in horse sh-t for three weeks after the market thats the biggest load of Bullsh-t I ever heard (and if it was presumably you noticed that when you were moving there?unless you moved in on the one week that there wasn't?)

The whole point is the garda haven't been able to get rid of this backwards tradition because its so old its enshrined into the law/rights (of the city I presume), you do know that smithfield used have cattle market etc in it.

Not every aspect traditional aspect can be sacrificed so that people who bought overpriced apartments in the boom can be in 180,000 grands worth of negative equity rather than 200,000 and not have to run into any undesirables while there nipping into fresh for some massively overpriced shopping.

I'm not condoning what by any means happened but let the cops do there job and come down extremely hard on those offenders not shut the place down.

You see, the big problem with this post is the absolute snobbery you show to these posters who may or may not be living in new apartments in Smithfield. What difference does that make? I can understand if you may be a bit bitter if you have grown up and lived in Smithfield all your life and see the re-development of the area as a negative thing. So is that the case? Are you a born and bred Smithfield resident?

RDM_83 again

I only lived in Smithfield for a time (and not even a dub native or resident anymore) I just hate the expectation that when people pay big money for property in an area they demand the character of the area to change no matter how long the tradition (and the horse fair is one long tradition!), I'l give you an example I lived in temple bar for a decent period of time, the noise was horrific (and actually worst in mornings with trucks making deliveries) and I did bitch about it too my friends, but I didn't expect it too change because it had been like that before I moved there and would be like that when I left, you can't be all shocked and high horsed (pardon the pun) about a thing that you knew was happening for literally hundreds of years before you moved there!
and also there is an element of snobbery in all these demands to shut the horse fair down, would they really be happening if it was council flats backing onto the square?

Adagiodiva

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Dublin 7 is not covered in horse sh-t for three weeks after the market thats the biggest load of Bullsh-t I ever heard (and if it was presumably you noticed that when you were moving there?unless you moved in on the one week that there wasn't?).

Acutally the horse **** lasts for at least two weeks, unless we are unlucky (or lucky) to have a good downpour of rain to wash it away...the stench this morning will last for a good couple of days. Those living in the terraced houses along the Square will now also have to clean up their own gardens where rubbish thrown into them.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Not every aspect traditional aspect can be sacrificed so that people who bought overpriced apartments in the boom can be in 180,000 grands worth of negative equity rather than 200,000 and not have to run into any undesirables while there nipping into fresh for some massively overpriced shopping.?)

You obviously have a problem with those of us who have purchased apartments in the area, in a development that took place in an effort to revilatise this area of Dublin. I'm sorry that I'm not a born and bred Smithfield resident but I AM ENTITLED to speak as a new resident of Smithfield.

You didn't one mention the serious health hazard that the horse fair now poses to ALL OF US taking place in such a built up area--that's the main point. It is now too dangerous to hold this event in the city centre..it's only a matter of time before someone gets seriously injuired or before a horse ploughs into the LUAS.

mike kelly

Adagiodiva wrote: »

..I only walked into the Square to head to the gym and had a group of teenager boys approached me (one on horse) and started making really crude comments (use your imagination) to me.

next time, wear hula hoops ear rings

seriously, you were lucky they did not assault you. they have gone into rape and sexual assault in a big way in the last few years. find another route to the gym in future

JimsAlterEgo

RoadRunner wrote: »

For their' own good we need to start treating the Travellers like the rest of the irish citizens. They were caught on camera this time and they need to be properly locked up, and made an example of. Society will benefit. I've seen them go at each other with pitchforks and axes outside the national boxing arena and they guards drove on past.

People need to know their limitations.

It should be the priority of the incoming government to act on this. Just the same as the dirty politicians and bankers on the other end of the scale.

don't waste the money, put them on an island and let them settle their differences

mike kelly

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

don't waste the money, put them on an island and let them settle their differences

...they are living on an island

Run_to_da_hills

"Big fat gypsy shoot-out".

I like the headline.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363753/Chaos-traveller-horse-fair-hundreds-flee-shoot-feud-got-hand.html

Cat Melodeon

mike kelly wrote: »

they can do pretty much what they want. Whenever there is a traveller funeral in a rural town, the gardai order all publicans to close until the travellers have left.

This is a load of rubbish. I live in a rural area with a large local Traveller population. The two pubs here have never closed for any funeral, settled or Traveller. Some pubs in other areas do close, but because of the fears/prejudices of the owners, not because of any Garda directive.

I used to live in D7 in the 90s and would go down to the market nearly every month just to hang out and watch the crack. What goes on there now is quite different to even 15 years ago, and it is certainly not all the fault of Travellers.

During the boom years, every Tom, Dick and Harry all over the country was getting a horse or pony. Many of these had no previous experience of horse ownership. Some bred from their animals, contributing to a glut of mediocre quality horse stock. When time got hard, they couldn't get anything for their horses and some just dumped them. Many of the horses abandoned in the past 3 years to forage for themselves or starve were not owned by Travellers but by settled folk with aspirations of joining the horsey set. Travellers have dumped them too, I'm not disputing that, but it's not restricted to them. The glut of horses created by irresponsible owners across society has contributed to the situation where any child can now pick up an animal for under €10.

The main difference I see at Smithfield is that there are way fewer genuine horse traders and way more scumbags who have horses simply because it's cheap to buy them and they can. I don't see why regulations can't be introduced (and enforced where they already exist) so that all owners have to be registered (same as the existing herd number scheme for farmers), all horses have to be licenced and hold passports/be chipped, and that ANYONE who does not comply will have their animal seized until they sort out the paperwork. It should not have to cost a fortune to get registration/licences, but individuals should have to show that they have the means to care for their animals.

As for the market, it should continue but the square should be cordoned off and only those traders who are registered and who are in possession of relevant documents for their animals should be allowed entry, with traders having to pay a fee to enter the same as stall holders at any other market in Ireland. This should not be too difficult to enforce. Why the DSPCA, DCC, Pavee Point, the ITM, the residents' associations and the Dept of Agriculture aren't working more closely together on this is beyond me. The horse market is a valuable tradition and should not be allowed to degenerate into the mess it is becoming.


And just on the point of Travellers ethnicity, they ARE a separate ethnic group whatever your opinions of that. I has been recognised by the EU (RAXEN) and by the UN (which has raised serious concerns about Traveller rights in Ireland), but recognition is consistently resisted by the Irish state as it would end up costing a lot of money. If Travellers' ethnic status was recognised it would hopefully contribute to getting rid of a lot of the casual bigotry that exists against Travellers in Ireland, would enshrine their rights in law and would hoopefully mean that those elements of Traveller society that actually do cause problems could be singled out and dealt with without tarring all Travellers with the deviant label.

R P McMurphy

I think the horse fair is only there since the 70s, before that it was a market for agricultural machinery or something dating to the 40s

Cat Melodeon

mike kelly wrote: »

next time, wear hula hoops ear rings

seriously, you were lucky they did not assault you. they have gone into rape and sexual assault in a big way in the last few years. find another route to the gym in future

WTF are you on about? There is a big difference between lads wolf-whistling and making lewd comments and actually assaulting and raping someone in broad daylight. I'd like to see a source that actually backs up your claim that 'they have gone into rape in a big way'. What a pile of bigoted horse manure.

maximoose

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Not every aspect traditional aspect can be sacrificed so that people who bought overpriced apartments in the boom can be in 180,000 grands worth of negative equity rather than 200,000 and not have to run into any undesirables while there nipping into fresh for some massively overpriced shopping.

What has that got to do with anything? You're making the assumption that everyone in this thread who is complaining about the market lives in the smithfield square apartments, and even then it's irrelevant.

I have lived in 3 different areas around Smithfield and I'm now quite far up Prussia street.. and the fallout from the monthly meeting is all over the place, not confined to the one square block of Smithfield. Walking into town today from the top of Prussia St. I was dodging horse Sh*te on the pavements from my doorstep all the way down to the quays. Call it "the biggest load of bull****" if you like, but I've had 4 years experience and I'm now a manure dodging pro... yes, it will be there for 2-3 weeks.

If the council cant shut it down they should at least have the means in place to clean up the mess afterwards.

Also... Fresh isnt that overpriced

mike kelly

on liveline now

mike kelly

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

WTF are you on about? There is a big difference between lads wolf-whistling and making lewd comments and actually assaulting and raping someone in broad daylight. I'd like to see a source that actually backs up your claim that 'they have gone into rape in a big way'. What a pile of bigoted horse manure.

what about all the rapes in southhill?

bitter_lemon

****ing knackers :mad:

Cat Melodeon

mike kelly wrote: »

what about all the rapes in southhill?

Post a link please. I'm not aware of there being a large number of rapes committed by Travellers in Southhill or anywhere else. I'll gladly retract my accusation of BS if you point me to the evidence.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Guys watch the ol' language eh!.

murrayp4

Does anyone actually know how long the fair has been held?
Some people say since the '70's while others say the last 200 years??

The Waltzing Consumer

murrayp4 wrote: »

Does anyone actually know how long the fair has been held?
Some people say since the '70's while others say the last 200 years??

From the Irish Times:

"The council has for more than a decade sought the closure of the fair, but it has been blocked by an ancient market right to hold sales on the land, asserted by horse traders. Smithfield was laid out as a market area in the mid-17th century, and from 1664 the site was used primarily as a cattle and hay market, but horses were also sold periodically.

Horses were sold on a regular basis in Smithfield from the late 1800s onward, but the horse fair in its current incarnation dates from the early 1960s, when the area was in a state of considerable dereliction."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0307/breaking16.html

JimsAlterEgo

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

From the Irish Times:

"The council has for more than a decade sought the closure of the fair, but it has been blocked by an ancient market right to hold sales on the land, asserted by horse traders. Smithfield was laid out as a market area in the mid-17th century, and from 1664 the site was used primarily as a cattle and hay market, but horses were also sold periodically.

Horses were sold on a regular basis in Smithfield from the late 1800s onward, but the horse fair in its current incarnation dates from the early 1960s, when the area was in a state of considerable dereliction."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0307/breaking16.html

change the law

mikemac

There are large areas in North County Dublin which are very rural. Fingal will own some of this land

I'm sure DCC own fields around the city too.
Find a site and ship the fair out there. I seem to remember a circus around the city but I forget exactly where it was, possibly out by Kilmainham I think.
Now there's a site just waiting to be used

R P McMurphy

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

change the law

Wouldn't need to change the law, just very strictly enforce existing ones to make it impossible to trade there.

I am definitely open to correction on the 70s date. Was just something I heard before by word of mouth, same with the agricultural machinery sales.

Monty Burnz

mike kelly wrote: »

u were lucky. If you had to give evidence against these fellows, they would make your life hell

It's their culture to have no respect fot the law and do whatever the hell they want, smashing up places and staging pitched battles. If you don't like it, you are worse than a Nazi.

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

If Travellers' ethnic status was recognised it would hopefully contribute to getting rid of a lot of the casual bigotry that exists against Travellers in Ireland, would enshrine their rights in law and would hoopefully mean that those elements of Traveller society that actually do cause problems could be singled out and dealt with without tarring all Travellers with the deviant label.

By what magical mechanism would this come about? I'm all for equality before the law - it's travellers that seem to have a problem with it.

Sunnyisland

As usual in Ireland we will wait until some one is killed before prober regulation & policing is brought in, Talking about closing the stable door after the horse bolts...........

Darlughda

mike kelly wrote: »

next time, wear hula hoops ear rings

seriously, you were lucky they did not assault you. they have gone into rape and sexual assault in a big way in the last few years. find another route to the gym in future

Post reported. Unbelievable that a Dublin City moderator has posted on this thread and not seen fit to even comment on this vile bigotry.

Monty Burnz

Darlughda wrote: »

Post reported. Unbelievable that a Dublin City moderator has posted on this thread and not seen fit to even comment on this vile bigotry.

To be fair, if it's bigotry (and the comment does sound ridiculous), the reason that it exists is in part because of behaviour such as...

..I only walked into the Square to head to the gym and had a group of teenager boys approached me (one on horse) and started making really crude comments (use your imagination) to me.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Darlughda wrote: »

Post reported. Unbelievable that a Dublin City moderator has posted on this thread and not seen fit to even comment on this vile bigotry.

Stop getting yourself in a twist.

The thread is locked and everyone's contributions to it will be looked at.

Next time you've a problem with how a thread is moderated in the DCF bring it to the moderators attention via a PM, your here long enough to know that.

Right the thread is opened again.. With a shot across your bows (everyone).

First off, this kind of language isn't welcome in the DCF - pity I can't ban for stupidity.

mike kelly wrote: »

next time, wear hula hoops ear rings

seriously, you were lucky they did not assault you. they have gone into rape and sexual assault in a big way in the last few years. find another route to the gym in future

Be very careful and never pull this crap here again.

The word 'Knackers' or 'Knacker'.. Its NOT a racist term, but it IS derogatory and causes offence to people using this forum

I'm as guilty as the next in using it in describing members of the traveling community. But I don't do it online where its liable to cause offence.

If you don't like how travelers behave there are other ways to describe their carry on without resorting to language which is liable to cause offence on the forum.

Right carry on, but if your going to post something which you think for a moment might cause offence - pause and think, because next time there's gonna be bannings from the forum.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Reopened and guys, READ THE POST ABOVE ^^.

cosmic

DCC have rejected the motion to ban it:

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-city-council-reject-motion-to-close-market-after-shooting-496348.html

John_Rambo

Traditions are great, I hate stifling health and safety laws, but lets face it, Smithfield is no longer a derelict site, it's evolved in to a populous living quarter. I don't think it's suitable any more for a market with large domestic animals and a minority of horse people who simply can't control themselves and seem to have no regard for anyone.

To the people who are sneering at residents and taking a tough sheet attitude, cop yourselves on with your "I'm all right Jack". The market is obviously not what it was years ago and residents deserve a quiet safe life regardless of what they spent on their home, regardless of what they owe, regardless of where they are from and wether they are renting, or paying a mortgage. Guns, slashhooks, shots fired, abuse etc... are not part of a market, It's not suited to a city centre.

Moving it to somewhere like the Phoenix park might be a runner, it could properly be corralled, it would be easier to clean up afterwards, there would be grazing, it would be easier on the animals, there would be less crowding leading less spooked animals, there could be galloping, trotting areas, maybe a one gate in, one gate out could give the animal welfare people more of a chance to vet what is going on.

As usual it's a typical situation where a few people ruin it for everyone.

Twee.

It quite very simply is not safe to have animals of that strength confined in a place like that. Is there access to running water? Are there regulations regarding who's going in and what they're bringing home? The treatment of horses and ponies in this country is appalling, to say the least. I don't mean just from the Traveling Community here, I mean in general. Search for Horse over in the Animal and Pet Issues forum here and you'll see lots of disturbing threads about their treatment. There needs to be a clamp down on horse ownership. They should require licenses like dogs. Having worked with horses in the past, they are not easy animals to keep, and certainly not cheap.

As mentioned above, Smithfield is now an urban residential area. It is not a market. No one should be made scared to leave their own home because a group of people have loaded in for the day. My ex used to live around the area and good lord, the state of the place on a Sunday night.

**** tradition. It's not just gun shots that startle horses. It can be any loud noise. People were seriously lucky that they didn't get trampled on Sunday. It's gonna be too late when they decide to do something about it. If the horses bolt, where can they go? Down the Luas tracks, into gardens, up North King Street? not good options.

If the DSPCA can't afford to be out there checking on animal welfare, DCC can't afford the clean up, and the members of this market can't keep it civil, respectful, safe and clean, well, then there shouldn't be a market.

Cat Melodeon

Monty Burnz wrote: »

By what magical mechanism would this come about? I'm all for equality before the law - it's travellers that seem to have a problem with it.

By enshrining the rights of minorities in legislation and by introducing anti-discrimination laws, it would send a clear signal that we respect the rights of minorities in Ireland. Members of minority communities would be able to take action against discrimination as it happened. Solid intercultural measures would have to be taken (such as changes to how we do education, implementing Traveller accommodation provisions that have been agreed upon but not enacted since the 1990s, changes in employment law) that would ensure that Travellers have access to the same opportunities as the rest of us enjoy. If you are in denial about equality of opportunity, you are in denial about the existence of a problem so you might as well not read any further. In fact, the second line of what you posted above clearly shows you are in denial.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm all for equality before the law - it's travellers that seem to have a problem with it.

The majority of Travellers are law-abiding citizens. This sort of remark stinks of bigotry and is typical of a racism-denier blaming the racialised group for acting in a way that deserves racism. And before you go off on one, I do not deny that the Travellers causing the havoc at Smithfield do not deserve to be prosecuted for their actions, I am simply pointing out that not all Travellers engage in this sort of behaviour. If you were to carry that through, then every single graduate of Blackrock College is a murderer, every single obstetrician is a mutilator, every single Irish person is a rapist or a drug dealer or a prostitute. You can't judge an entire society by it's bottom-most layer.

For those who don't believe that using derogatory language against a distinct group of people is racist, you have a conveniently narrow definition of what does and does not comprise racism. Different minority or marginalised groups become racialised through the words and actions of the dominant group in society. Thus Jews, although not a 'race' have been marked out and made different throughout history. The Irish are not a 'race', but their treatment in the UK in the 60s was typical of racialisation and racist behaviour resulted.

Anyone who takes the actions of a small number of people from any distinct group and accuses the entire group of being guilty of similar behaviour when that is patently not true is guilty of racism. This includes using terms that are acknowledged as being a derogatory description of that particular group, whether or not is is socially acceptable in your particular circle of acquaintances to use that term in other contexts. There is NO difference in using the word 'knacker' and using the 'n' word to describe blacks. This does not take away from the history of black oppression but it should cause Irish people to really look at themselves and their attitudes because this is the level you bring yourself down to when you buy into the sort of casual bigotry that leads to the demonisation of a entire community that has good and bad elements just like any other segment of society.

If you continue to refuse that being anti-Traveller is the same as being racist, have a read of the reports on racism against Travellers by the National Consultative Committee on Racism and Interculturalism (http://www.nccri.ie/travellr.html) and the European Parliament Committee of Inquiry on Racism and Xenophobia. Of course, if your mind is already made up, you probably won't bother. It's uncomfortable reading something that might cause you to recognise yourself as a bigot and a racist.

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

By enshrining the rights of minorities in legislation and by introducing anti-discrimination laws, it would send a clear signal that we respect the rights of minorities in Ireland. Members of minority communities would be able to take action against discrimination as it happened. Solid intercultural measures would have to be taken (such as changes to how we do education, implementing Traveller accommodation provisions that have been agreed upon but not enacted since the 1990s, changes in employment law) that would ensure that Travellers have access to the same opportunities as the rest of us enjoy. If you are in denial about equality of opportunity, you are in denial about the existence of a problem so you might as well not read any further. In fact, the second line of what you posted above clearly shows you are in denial.

Sorry, I wanted to know how giving extra rights to travellers (rights that settled people don't have) is going to stop travellers continuing to behave as they do today - i.e. with no respect for many of the laws that everyone else has to abide by. You seem to have misunderstood what I thought was a fairly straightforward question. And can we please not have the usual '99% of travellers are law abiding' nonsense when we all know it's not true. I'm not saying that they are all bad, or that they are all bad because they are travellers, but a very large minority, or perhaps a majority, do not respect the laws of the land and cause continous problems to other law-abiding citizens just trying to live their own lives.

R P McMurphy

I wouldn't like to see it going to the Phoenix park. Should just enforce every piece of legislation going and have revenue officals there monitoring any sales and taking details and the tradition would quickly fade away

Monty Burnz

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I wouldn't like to see it going to the Phoenix park. Should just enforce every piece of legislation going and have revenue officals there monitoring any sales and taking details and the tradition would quickly fade away

I wonder how many of those travellers pay taxes? Has anyone ever seen the fleets of 100k Range Rovers around Rathkeale, a town where the settled community is shrinking every year for some reason, and businesses are closing one by one? It's a shell of the busy market town it used to be. How odd.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I wonder how many of those travellers pay taxes? Has anyone ever seen the fleets of 100k Range Rovers around Rathkeale, a town where the settled community is shrinking every year for some reason, and businesses are closing one by one? It's a shell of the busy market town it used to be. How odd.

Where is Rathkeale?.

John_Rambo

Limerick. A real eye opener, I think 80% of the population are from the traveler community. Loads of huge very very very flamboyant houses, statues and fountains in the front etc...

QueensGael

Rathkeale made the news for the Virgin Mary tree stump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCVmc885-ns
(captions not mine, but it was one of the better clips I could find)

Monty Burnz

Interesting videos linking from that one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWfUNvNVICQ&t=3m38s

Cat Melodeon

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Sorry, I wanted to know how giving extra rights to travellers (rights that settled people don't have) is going to stop travellers continuing to behave as they do today - i.e. with no respect for many of the laws that everyone else has to abide by. You seem to have misunderstood what I thought was a fairly straightforward question.

Yes, you were given a straightforward answer. No one is proposing that Travellers are given extra rights, rights beyond which settled people have. What is proposed is implementation of existing and outstanding legislation (particularly relating to housing and accommodation) and the introduction and enactment of anti-discrimination laws. As it stands, Travellers find it difficult to access second and third level education, find it difficult to get on to mainstream training programs and apprenticeships, are discriminated against by employers, are discriminated against in the media, are discriminated against by the majority of the population. They experience health inequalities. Ten times as many Traveller babies than settled babies die before they are two. A third of Travellers die before they are 25.There have been incidents of them being refused insurance or Garda assistance or entry to certain establishments simply because of their Traveller status with no attantion paid to whether or not they have ever been involved in any deviant activity. It is simply assumed that they will, because others have. That is unfair and needs to change and their rights as citizens need to be recognised just as everyone else's are.

It is widely accepted that if you marginalise someone enough (whether they be Traveller or anyone else) and tell them enough that they are no good, they can slip into the behaviour that is expected of them. That happens to Travellers, it happens to everyone else too. The difference being that most non-Traveller kids don't grow up being excluded and treated like potential criminals.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And can we please not have the usual '99% of travellers are law abiding' nonsense when we all know it's not true. I'm not saying that they are all bad, or that they are all bad because they are travellers, but a very large minority, or perhaps a majority, do not respect the laws of the land and cause continous problems to other law-abiding citizens just trying to live their own lives.

I would like to see where you get this information from and hope you will post a link to back up your accusation. Over 50% of Travellers are bad? What does that mean - that they engage in criminal activity, or that they are just immoral and uncivilised? Do you include children in that? Do you include the many Travellers who hold jobs, trade legitimately, pay taxes, try to live a quite life and get on as best they can? Do you actually have any Traveller friends or acquaintances?

Criminality tends to go hand in hand with poverty, particularly when that poverty includes social marginalisation. In the case of Travellers, their problems are not just related to socio-economic issues, but also to issues of identity. In Ireland we have erected structural barriers to the full integration of Travellers into society which in some cases results in persistent poverty. We need to work on taking those down. That includes getting rid of the racist and discriminatory discourses and ideologies that seem to define public opinion regarding Travellers. Those many Travellers who do well for themselves legitimately should be recognised as doing well and not accused of tax evasion or fraud or criminality. There are many Travellers who work hard, pay taxes and enjoy the trappings of wealth. However to the ignorant mind it seems if they are poor they must be criminal and if they are obviously rich, they are definitely criminal.

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Yes, you were given a straightforward answer. No one is proposing that Travellers are given extra rights, rights beyond which settled people have. What is proposed is implementation of existing and outstanding legislation (particularly relating to housing and accommodation) and the introduction and enactment of anti-discrimination laws. As it stands, Travellers find it difficult to access second and third level education, find it difficult to get on to mainstream training programs and apprenticeships, are discriminated against by employers, are discriminated against in the media, are discriminated against by the majority of the population. They experience health inequalities. Ten times as many Traveller babies than settled babies die before they are two. A third of Travellers die before they are 25.There have been incidents of them being refused insurance or Garda assistance or entry to certain establishments simply because of their Traveller status with no attantion paid to whether or not they have ever been involved in any deviant activity. It is simply assumed that they will, because others have. That is unfair and needs to change and their rights as citizens need to be recognised just as everyone else's are.

I'm sorry, but there's an awful load of tosh in there. Travellers find it difficult to access education because they don't send their kids to school. The CAO system is totally blind to your background - if you get the points, you get in. Travellers can't blame discrimination for their own total lack of regard for education. "They experience health inequalities" - or, in English, they live less healthily and die younger. Advice on how to live healthily is everywhere - perhaps they should pay attention to it? Or perhaps, as they haven't bothered with an education, they aren't able to read this advice that the rest of us can access?

The deaths of traveller babies - the same thing? Ignorance, lack of education, and insisting in living in unsuitable accommodation?

As for being refused admittance to places - that's unfortuante, but I bet the same places would let black or gay people in. Why is that? Perhaps because we don't hava a history of hundreds of black people turning up and trashing a place? We don't have gay weddings where the homosexuals smash the place up either. And it's very hard to know whether you are dealing with decent travellers or the large number who have no respect for the law or property. Let's not pretend that businesses started turning down trade and profits from travellers because they don't want it.

If you think there is a 30% chance a group of travellers is going to trash your pub, are you supposed to let them in? I know it's unfair on the other 70%, but what is your proposed solution?

Monty Burnz

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

I would like to see where you get this information from and hope you will post a link to back up your accusation. Over 50% of Travellers are bad? What does that mean - that they engage in criminal activity, or that they are just immoral and uncivilised? Do you include children in that? Do you include the many Travellers who hold jobs, trade legitimately, pay taxes, try to live a quite life and get on as best they can? Do you actually have any Traveller friends or acquaintances?

I'll post my evidence that a large minority or perhaps a majority of travellers do not respect the law when you provide your figures for the 'many' travellers who pay taxes.

The Waltzing Consumer

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'll post my evidence that a large minority or perhaps a majority of travellers do not respect the law when you provide your figures for the 'many' travellers who pay taxes.

I don't know if he will be able to provide those figures. The only ones I can find are these from Celtic Tiger year 2002.

http://census.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1593

It shows that of the 13680 travellers in Ireland aged 15+, only 2,531 were employed.

As for the health inequality claim by Cat Melodeon, it is worth pointing out that along with lifestyle choices, generations of inbreeding has also had a detrimental effect on travellers health.

The problem with Cat Melodeons whole post, from my point of view, is that it entirely lays the blame of any bad deed at either the Government or discrimination. Even when he talks about criminality, the blame is ultimately blamed on something else.

As for the whole how many travellers are engaged in crime, it is hard to see an actual way to record that. The only thing I could find is this from 2003:
http://www.paveepoint.ie/pdf/MH_Sub_Dec03.pdf

which quotes the following Amnesty report:
"There is a gross over-representation of Travellers in forensic admissions… This reflects the excess of Travellers amongst prison committals… These rates suggest that a very high proportion of all Travellers will be imprisoned at some time during their life."

Degsy

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

No one is proposing that Travellers are given extra rights, rights beyond which settled people have..

Okay..

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

What is proposed is implementation of existing and outstanding legislation (particularly relating to housing and accommodation) ..

What you want is free housing and accomadation..why?

I have to pay for mine and i cant afford to drive an up-to-date jeep.

Why should you be given free accomadation? I've never heard of a poor traveller.

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

There are many Travellers who work hard, pay taxes and enjoy the trappings of wealth. However to the ignorant mind it seems if they are poor they must be criminal and if they are obviously rich, they are definitely criminal.

Working hard and paying taxes does not make you wealthy..any taxpayer will tell you that.

eth0_

Settled people wouldn't be allowed to descend on an inner-city area with hundreds of horses for an entire day, cause regular acts of violence (i've seen it and the amount of police required to attend this event would indicate it wasn't a one off) and then leave Smithfield - a residential area - covered in horse manure and other rubbish. So why should the travellers continue to do it?

Additionally, a lot of the horses I have seen at the fair have been in poor condition and are cantered around the area which not only causes a danger to pedestrians and vehicles, but is physically damaging to a horse's hooves and legs, especially if they are un-shod.

The market needs to be moved to a country area where it can be held in a field and the DSPCA can inspect each animal before it can be sold.

eth0_

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-city-council-reject-motion-to-close-market-after-shooting-496348.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d766de18df18555%2C0

DCC have just rejected a motion to close the market. So they happily condone animal cruelty and the shocking wastage of tax payers money on policing and clean-up after this event. Unbelievable.

The Hill Billy

eth0_ wrote: »

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-city-council-reject-motion-to-close-market-after-shooting-496348.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d766de18df18555%2C0

DCC have just rejected a motion to close the market. So they happily condone animal cruelty and the shocking wastage of tax payers money on policing and clean-up after this event. Unbelievable.

What's a post about Smithfield Horse Market doing in this thread?

Oh, eh, wait a sec...